Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Ruthie, You have made some excellent points, thank you for all of your well thought out posts! I agree with you about younger Fjords. I have heard too many sad stories from people buying older, trained Fords and being very unhappy. Of course, too many people liken a trained horse to a car, in my opinion, and simply do not understand that regardless if said animal is trained or not, it still needs basic ground work and bonding time when brought to a new home. In some ways, this conversation reminds me of talks found in academic circles. Oftentimes, new professors have a difficult first and even second year of teaching as they have gone through so much schooling they have literally forgotten the basics. Needless to say, their students are certainly not on the same level as their professor, so communication difficulties arise. Eventually, the professor realizes, oh my! Of course my students are confused, they do not have the level of study I do! Knowledgeable horse people can fall into this hole, too. It IS difficult to remember what it was like as a beginner. What the knowledgeable horse person sees as a simply quirk of a trained horse, the beginner will see as utterly daunting. Sometimes, a trainer can assist, but oftentimes, the trainer has better luck dealing with a clean slate from both the horse and beginner. My advice to beginning horse people is simple. Have a good and reputable trainer or horse person to assist. Buy either a young, well bred and well handled Fjord OR an older well trained Fjord. If choosing the later, make SURE that animal can perform as the owner states. Have someone test the animal for you in different situations. Look over the vet record carefully, ask a qualified vet to assist. Also, insist on seeing the back of the pedigree. How many owners has this horse had? Why? If not given good answers, contact the previous owners yourself. Every horse, just like humans, will have quirks. That is life. Find out what they are with an older Fjord, find out if they are something you are comfortable in dealing with. Frankly, we have had great success in placing younger Fjords, we also prefer to bring in younger Fjords. The older the Fjord, the harder time it takes it to adjust to a new home. They are people oriented! A Fjord will love you for a lifetime. Regards, Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Shetlands White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: Cost of a horse: broke or unbroke?
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, you're cracking me up ! don't you know that the first e-mail list person to begin interspersing their response into the text of their antagonist, loses? and if it takes them three pages to do it... they've lost ! touche' I'm not going to reiterate my stand on the worth and merit of training and selling youngsters, nor will I detract from your horse philosophizing, as I feel we both pretty well know what we're talking about and have both made some valid observations. But I do feel that I should have the last word because you used my post as your platform for promotion of yourself. fair enough? Ruthie
Re: Cost of a horse: broke or unbroke?
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well Karen,
I guess if it's necessary to define the something extra, it would be that
enhancing element of a better comprehension of a particular horse, that
stems from long term association and observation, but more importantly it
would a deeply entrenched working relationship as you stated, it takes
a lot of time and discipline. A younger horse affords you that extra time
and opportunity to establish discipline.
-my reply:
Yes, Ruthie, I agree, IF you KNOW what you are doing! Otherwise, you run the
risk of making a psycho horse, or a horse so de-sensitized by so-called
imprinting/mis-applied handling as to make the horse a dullard, or worse, a
spoiled monster
-
It's the same with a dog...
-my reply:
Sorry, horses are not dogs. Analogy won't apply here.. Will your dog run
away with your cart? Slam you in the face with its head? Or kick or bite
you??
-
..if you take a puppy you can mold and train it to
your liking, wheras if you take an adult dog you often don't have the same
quality of relationship. Now some will take exception to that statement too
but I am talking in terms of generally speaking. (I know that many, many
pound animals make wonderful pets-- let's not go there =))
--My reply:
I wouldn't entertain the thought!
However, I am not talking adult horses here. I generally sell horses between
3-5 years old. IM, I wouldn't consider a horse to be anadult until at leat
6-7 yo, maybe older if they were slower in their emotional developement.
--
I'm saying that often they're not trained as well as could be, had
it been your own.)
--
Ruthie, I think you missed what I wrote in my last post: when I sell a horse
to a new home, I have provided a foundation from which the new
owner/rider/driver may proceed. They can gild the lily as much or as little
as they desire! Learning is never done (god forbid). Let me make it clearer
by saying, by giving my horses a good foundation and early basic riding or
driving training, I am preparing them to live out in the world, so that they
deport themselves well, be happy, whatever you wanna call it. I am certainly
not saying that I am selling finished horses ('tho I have sold a couple I
would consider near to being finished). I am just saying I prefer to sell
my horses with a good, decent start, so that anyone with moderate horse
skills can progress at their own speed, in whatever discipline they choose.
And if they are complete newbies, I insist in the terms of the sale, that
they will train the horse (themselves too) with some assistance, whether it
be a friend or a professional trainer.
---
Karen, you have expanded on my statement for a preference of raising young
stock, to include your merit as a breeder/seller, by opposing the sale of
young stock. To each his own...
---my reply:
Ruthie, I do not oppose selling youngstock to a QUALIFIED person. I just
have never had that many inquiries for youngstock is all. The few inquiries
I have had, have been from unqualified (IMO)newbie buyers.One couple wanted
to buy a filly I had because she had such a sweet dished face - just like an
arab! They told me they planned to keep her in a box stall 'til she was old
enough to ride, YIKES! This filly was later sold as a 3 yo to a woman in
Colorado with moderate skills, who intended to work with a trainer.This mare
is now being ridden driven - happily ever after for all!
---
..but I would point out that a young horse
that is imprinted and well handled could not actually be classified as not
being broke (an expression not used that much any more, thank goodness).
--my reply:
Okay Ruthie, in the interest of semantics, let's use the phrase 'started'
shall we? You know, I know, we all know, we don't take horses and tie them
to snubbing posts and sack them out, or worse...so what you are saying in
the above snip is: a horse that is imprinted and well handled is considered
to be well started (broke)? Hmm, in the eye of the beholder, maybe.
---
A horses fundamental training begins at birth and quite possibly this is
the most essential aspect of their entire training. (they say that people
are
for the most part character developed by the time they are 4 1/2 years of
age).
So, I believe that a loving individual owners' hands-on training of a Fjord
youngster is definitely a plus factor for their development and future. As
you said, a
Re: Cost of a horse: broke or unbroke?
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whoa there Ruthie and Karen. I think you are both taking non existent sides due to variables. Horses can be adaptable, sensible and gentle from birth. This makes it easy for the beginner to have a well trained horse. Horses may also take on the characteristics of owners, training or not. Another variable. Horses can innately be cruel or unmanageable due to physical or mental quirks that no one can work out. So, bad owner, trainer or horse? Do the very best you can as owner, breeder, trainer but let the buyer beware. The horse must be observed in many different situations or by the trained eye. With the very best of training, talent and personality a horse can still do damage. When I was younger I wanted the hot blooded horse with style and presence. By searching and observing I found the perfect match and knew nothing of his early beginnings. He was a crowd pleaser and the most reliable horse ever, despite his animation. Then I bred and raised two horses out of the same dam. One has the presence and animation but is impish and the other is totally reliable, quiet and willing. My impish one would try anything to pester and get his way and has only in his twentieth year become totally (almost) tractable. It was suggested I use a two by four instead of the crop when he was young. Yet he was brilliant in dressage. My other one has never required a crop, has never offered resistance on the ground. She is different under saddle, slow and pokey unless she likes you. This could be changed by training but I no longer ride. So many variables. So if one chose only young home raised etc horses it is still a toss up as is the older well trained horse. Observation and trying the horse in all situations possible is the only way I know to understand what you are buying. Plus the words of your known trainer or expert. Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Cost of a horse: broke or unbroke?
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well Karen, I guess if it's necessary to define the something extra, it would be that enhancing element of a better comprehension of a particular horse, that stems from long term association and observation, but more importantly it would a deeply entrenched working relationship as you stated, it takes a lot of time and discipline. A younger horse affords you that extra time and opportunity to establish discipline. It's the same with a dog... if you take a puppy you can mold and train it to your liking, wheras if you take an adult dog you often don't have the same quality of relationship. Now some will take exception to that statement too but I am talking in terms of generally speaking. (I know that many, many pound animals make wonderful pets-- let's not go there =)) I'm saying that often they're not trained as well as could be, had it been your own.) Karen, you have expanded on my statement for a preference of raising young stock, to include your merit as a breeder/seller, by opposing the sale of young stock. To each his own... but I would point out that a young horse that is imprinted and well handled could not actually be classified as not being broke (an expression not used that much any more, thank goodness). A horses fundamental training begins at birth and quite possibly this is the most essential aspect of their entire training. (they say that people are for the most part character developed by the time they are 4 1/2 years of age). So, I believe that a loving individual owners' hands-on training of a Fjord youngster is definitely a plus factor for their development and future. As you said, a barnful of horses take a great deal of time and discipline... better a one-on-one quality relationship I say, and I'll stick by that. Ruthie, nw mt - - - ---- Well Ruthie, I don't quite understand what you refer to as a homegrown horse that has that something extra factor, as being a superior horse. Good training is good training, whether it is on a horse you raise yourself or one that is boughten. I humbly disagree with you on the idea that almost anybody coming down the pike, can produce, on their own, with the breeders blessing guidance, a good broke horse. Yes, there is the rare individual that can do this, but IMO, this is infrequent and rare. Let's face it: it is not very common to have a trainer or experienced horseperson buy your horses. The majority of buyers are amatuer horsepeople. Not a bad thing in itself, but, if they think they are going to sucessfully train the horse on thier own, with books, videos and clinics, because a trainer is too expensive, etc and they 'can figure it out', then I can see the writing on the wall: horse problems in the making. There is NO substitute for a good trainer or mentor when it comes to working with horses. And I say working, because it IS work! Work I love all the same, but it takes allot of time and discipline to work even a small barnfull of horses. I have a very small breeding program. I have never, ever sold a horse under age 3. Very few buyers are looking for youngstock. Most are looking for good broke horses. By starting them bringing them on myself, it's not so much as I am keeping them from(the)evil hands of others, but rather, people buy my horses with a good start on them, because they know my horses will arrive at their place with an extremely solid foundation, and ready to go in the direction the owner chooses. They have confidence in me as a breeder/trainer that this will be so. They are never represented otherwise, this is my reputation...and my story, and I'm sticking to it ;-| ! Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, Nv. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Cost of a horse: broke or unbroke?
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original Message Follows--- This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...That's where the wisdom and responsibility of the breeder/seller comes into play Karen, as I said, it's not a plan for everyone. I'm saying that given my preference, of two horses-- one raised and trained, one boughten already trained, I would far prefer the home-grown that has that something extra factor. Ruthie, nw mt -- -- - - - - - ---- Well Ruthie, I don't quite understand what you refer to as a homegrown horse that has that something extra factor, as being a superior horse. Good training is good training, whether it is on a horse you raise yourself or one that is boughten. I humbly disagree with you on the idea that almost anybody coming down the pike, can produce, on their own, with the breeders blessing guidance, a good broke horse. Yes, there is the rare individual that can do this, but IMO, this is infrequent and rare. Let's face it: it is not very common to have a trainer or experienced horseperson buy your horses. The majority of buyers are amatuer horsepeople. Not a bad thing in itself, but, if they think they are going to sucessfully train the horse on thier own, with books, videos and clinics, because a trainer is too expensive, etc and they 'can figure it out', then I can see the writing on the wall: horse problems in the making. There is NO substitute for a good trainer or mentor when it comes to working with horses. And I say working, because it IS work! Work I love all the same, but it takes allot of time and discipline to work even a small barnfull of horses. I have a very small breeding program. I have never, ever sold a horse under age 3. Very few buyers are looking for youngstock. Most are looking for good broke horses. By starting them bringing them on myself, it's not so much as I am keeping them from(the)evil hands of others, but rather, people buy my horses with a good start on them, because they know my horses will arrive at their place with an extremely solid foundation, and ready to go in the direction the owner chooses. They have confidence in me as a breeder/trainer that this will be so. They are never represented otherwise, this is my reputation...and my story, and I'm sticking to it ;-| ! Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, Nv. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's where the wisdom and responsibility of the breeder/seller comes into play Karen, as I said, it's not a plan for everyone. I'm saying that given my preference, of two horses-- one raised and trained, one boughten already trained, I would far prefer the home-grown that has that something extra factor. Ruthie, nw mt This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well Ruthie, IF the newbie horse/fjord person purchasing the youngster had enuf common sense, and/or guidance from the breeder to work with a good mentor or trainer, then I would say yes... buy a young prospect, but otherwise you genuinely run the risk of just creating, as you put it, an older horse that may come with a lot of sorry baggage... and perpetuate the cycle. Sorry to disagree (somewhat) Kmac _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well Ruthie, IF the newbie horse/fjord person purchasing the youngster had enuf common sense, and/or guidance from the breeder to work with a good mentor or trainer, then I would say yes... buy a young prospect, but otherwise you genuinely run the risk of just creating, as you put it, an older horse that may come with a lot of sorry baggage... and perpetuate the cycle. Sorry to disagree (somewhat) Kmac _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course there's no pat forumla for everyone Linda, a one size fits all, but my personal preference would be to begin with a top quality bred younger Fjord... even if it cost as much as an older horse that may come with a lot of sorry baggage... in truth that's what we've done, started with youngsters and the long run, and it's turned out marvelous! I don't see why anyone couldn't learn how to bring a horse along if they apply themselves toward that end and if you love the horse you'll find out how to do it. Why not! (can you tell we have lots of younger stock for sale, cackle =))) Ruthie, nw mt This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie - the key here is time and money. A horse owner with little of each will likely have disappointments. A young horse requires alot of time and some money. An older, trained horse will need time - but, if well trained, does not need the day in and day out work a younger horse will. Both Sven and my quarterhorse are well trained - both were thousands of dollars -- but, I don't have to worry if I can't work them, interact with them, train them for long periods of time. Both know their jobs, do them well and are trustworthy, any time. A buyer with a full time job and a family would do better to purchase an older, trained horse. To those with lots of time -- a young horse could provide hours of learning, challenge and excitment! Linda in Corcoran
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie - the key here is time and money. A horse owner with little of each will likely have disappointments. A young horse requires alot of time and some money. An older, trained horse will need time - but, if well trained, does not need the day in and day out work a younger horse will. Both Sven and my quarterhorse are well trained - both were thousands of dollars -- but, I don't have to worry if I can't work them, interact with them, train them for long periods of time. Both know their jobs, do them well and are trustworthy, any time. A buyer with a full time job and a family would do better to purchase an older, trained horse. To those with lots of time -- a young horse could provide hours of learning, challenge and excitment! Linda in Corcoran
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re: Tish's comments on buying a younger/older horse. I, personally, buy older, trained horses. A person who is green, getting into horses, had a horse when young and wants one again, always wished to have a horse and can finally afford one, etc., etc.,??? . best to purchase an older, trained horse for the dicipline required - IMO :) Yes, a green horse can work out -- but, as Tish mentioned, alot of time is spent getting to a comfort level where rider/driver and horse form a partnership. Tish worked with trainers - how many green owners do not? That spells disaster from what I have seen. If a green owner is willing to spend money on training/ lessons with a young horse - most likely it will be a positive experience. Same is true for an older horse - green owners still will/may need the assistance of a trainer. Now with the responsibility of a foal I can honestly say I would not sell Hasse to someone who did not have the financial means or desire to help him become a well behaved, well trained working fjord. I chose to raise a foal - I believe it is my responsibility to do all I can to see that he is mannerly and trained to be a happy, working fjord. Enjoy the day, everyone! :) Linda in MN -- just returned home from a 5-day mini-vacation. Could not wait to get my barn boots on and go snuzzle my horses and goats.My daughter was in charge while I was gone so they were happy campers:):):)
Re: Cost of a horse
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] My advice: if I had to do it over again, I would find a nice guy I could fall in love with that was very well-trained. Tish and her darling Elph On the other hand Tish, you'll never know how that other alternative might have turned out for you, but with the choice you made you are well satisfied with your Elph who is formed and bonded by you. I recommend a younger horse that you can mold to your liking and with which you can develop that special relationship, for optimum performance. Of course some folks don't want to invest that kind of time but just as sometimes more money will buy a better product, so will spending more time create a better product and give you more for your investment. I think it was a wise choice to choose investing time over money and it sounds like your Elph bears that theory out. (tell him you didn't mean what you said, =) Ruthie
Cost of a horse
This message is from: Pasqual, Tish [EMAIL PROTECTED] I too have found the cost of a Fjord conversation very interesting. In fact, so interesting that I decided to do the math. I bought Elph as a six month old, having picked him out at three months (no, that's not right, he picked ME out), and he is now five. I paid $2,800 for the privilege of caring for him. Since then I have paid for board, farrier, vetting - over $10,000. Training - about $4,000. A saddle - $1,200. Training cart/harness - $1,250. Show cart/harness on the way - about $5,000. Then there are also shows, memberships, and membership meetings. And lessons, for me, my husband, and my son. It really adds up! That original price is dwarfed by everything else. When I look back on it, I can't regret having gotten him as a little guy. He is sweet, he comes when I holler, he rests his head on my shoulder and even gives something of a horsey hug - we truly belong to each other. He was very, very trustworthy right off the bat for driving, and has only gotten better at it as we practice. He is proving to be a delightful trail partner, and I am even having some very nice moments in the arena now. BUT - I did not know what I was getting into with a youngster. If I had purchased a nice, well-trained 8 year old who could ride and drive, I would have had a useful horse immediately instead of still being in the green horse mode that I currently continue to be in. I don't have any other horses - he is and probably always will be my only. So, four and a half years go by, and he has gone from being a pasture ornament to more and more useful, but my those years can crawl by when you want to just hack out with total trust, or drive ! in a show, or whatever. Note the original cost plus training plus vetting, farrier and board when he wasn't really useful - it works out to about what you would pay for an extremely well-bred, well-trained horse. My advice: if I had to do it over again, I would find a nice guy I could fall in love with that was very well-trained. Tish and her darling Elph in Minneapolis - wish we could share our abundance of rain with all you folks who need it
