Re: Dressage, judge prejudice
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't expect a perfectly executed dressage movement by a fjord to get the same marks as those performed by a warmblood, since a part of the mark even for the individual movement reflects the quality of the gait. ... If both the Fjord and WB perform the movement perfectly it implies that both were executing the movement at the trot required with no loss of impulsion and good balance, moving forward etc. It does not imply that trot was putzy, unsteady or unbalanced because then it would not have been perfectly executed. The above being the case both should receive the same score. Good point, I missed where the original poster said that the movement was perfectly executed by both Fjord and WB. In that case, they should both definitely get the same mark, a 10 (excellent). A common error, and one that my coach is always after me about when riding a movement, is to get all caught up in the details of the movement and forget to ride the quality of the basic gait. She always says the quality of the gait comes first and that is the basis of the score for each movement. After that of course, the gaits are again given weight in the collective marks, with a double coefficient. Lori
Re: Dressage, judge prejudice
This message is from: Vivian Creigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori Albrough5/26/02 12:33 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't expect a perfectly executed dressage movement by a fjord to get the same marks as those performed by a warmblood, since a part of the mark even for the individual movement reflects the quality of the gait. Since I am obviously in the writing mood thought I'd respond by pointing out that GAITS are scored in the collectives after the test is over. So a perfectly executed movement would/should be scored the same, be it WB or Fjord. The quality of the gait is always the basis of the score for the movement. You can execute a perfect shoulder-in but if the trot is putzy you'll never get above 6. That's because if the rhythm, impulsion, etc die in the movement it means the horse is not really working through, which means the training is lacking. Lori If both the Fjord and WB perform the movement perfectly it implies that both were executing the movement at the trot required with no loss of impulsion and good balance, moving forward etc. It does not imply that trot was putzy, unsteady or unbalanced because then it would not have been perfectly executed. The above being the case both should receive the same score. Just because a Fjord's lengthened trot doesn't cover as much ground as the 17H WB's doesn't mean that the Fjord should receive a lower score . Maybe the Fjord doesn't show as much suspension in his collections as the WB but shows correct engagement of the hocks and increased impulsion, same thing. However,most of the time but not always, in the collectives it's very likely the WB will receive a higher score for gaits than the Fjord. Vivian
Re: Dressage, judge prejudice
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't expect a perfectly executed dressage movement by a fjord to get the same marks as those performed by a warmblood, since a part of the mark even for the individual movement reflects the quality of the gait. Since I am obviously in the writing mood thought I'd respond by pointing out that GAITS are scored in the collectives after the test is over. So a perfectly executed movement would/should be scored the same, be it WB or Fjord. The quality of the gait is always the basis of the score for the movement. You can execute a perfect shoulder-in but if the trot is putzy you'll never get above 6. That's because if the rhythm, impulsion, etc die in the movement it means the horse is not really working through, which means the training is lacking. Lori
Re: Dressage, judge prejudice
This message is from: Vivian Creigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dagrun Aarsten5/25/02 1:35 [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't expect a perfectly executed dressage movement by a fjord to get the same marks as those performed by a warmblood, since a part of the mark even for the individual movement reflects the quality of the gait. Since I am obviously in the writing mood thought I'd respond by pointing out that GAITS are scored in the collectives after the test is over. So a perfectly executed movement would/should be scored the same, be it WB or Fjord. Unless the test asked for a medium trot and no change was seen between WT and MT. Then it's a failure to execute the movement as described in the test and would be reflected in the individual movements score. Does predjudice exist, sure. What to do about it, train harder. VC
Dressage, judge prejudice
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Interesting reading about the judge prejudice. Just a little comment from me, regarding dressage judging. Don't know how it works here, based on my Norwegian experience. I don't expect a perfectly executed dressage movement by a fjord to get the same marks as those performed by a warmblood, since a part of the mark even for the individual movement reflects the quality of the gait. A friend of mine in Norway, who is also a novice dressage judge, told me that if a fjord does a movement perfectly, the best mark it can get is usually 6. The warmbloods pull up the marks just by their extravagant gaits, and can get a higher mark even when not perfect. So I've just come to accept this as the way dressage is jugded, and not prejudice. It will be completely fair only when horses of the same breed compete against each other. BUT this is especially true at the higher levels, at levels below intermediate (in Norway), the gaits are not so strongly judged and a precicely ridden test with a well-trained fjord can win you the class. A fjord can sometimes recover some score on movements like halt and backing up, or turn on the haunches, that are technique more than gait. They will usually score lower on the extensions... I have seen some nasty examples of judge prejudice in Norway, especially towards fjords that are traditionally working horses and are often looked down upon by riders having more typical dressage/jumping horses. But hopefully it's getting better. I guess the point I wanted to make was that marking fjords lower for not having the warmblood gaits is not necessarily prejudice. I've just been trained to accept that that's the way it is. If performance was jugded up to the individual horse's maximum ability, then I guess all Grand Prix riders would have fjords :-) So dependable, stable and eager to learn! My dressage judge friend mentioned above competed his fjord up to Prix St. George as a junior (probably the only fjord in Norway who's done that), then had to move on to the warmbloods to be competitive. He sold his fjord two years ago, now I see it's for sale again. Anybody interested? (http://www.hest.no/marked/les?id=16026). 11 year old gelding, extensive dressage training, NOK 18 000. WIth an exchange rate of 8, that comes out something like USD 2250. Wow. Dagrun, San Jose, Ca
