Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Heather Baskey]

This message is from: Heather Baskey 


I couldn't agree more. If it feels wrong in your gut, it more than likely is.

Heather





 I think when you lose your temper with a horse, it is time to get off. That 
doesn't mean that you should let horses do what they want, it's just that I 
think when you lose your temper, your effectiveness as a trainer is gone and 
you need to come back another time. I also don't agree that as a rider you 
should be willing to accept any kind of treatment from a trainer. Some of these 
people get results but at what price? In terms of treatment of horses, if 
someone is doing something that you think is cruel or inhumane, it probably is 
and we shouldn't stand for it. In dressage, in western, in hunters, in 
eventing, in saddleseat (it happens in all disciplines) people need to show the 
courage to speak out against abuse and stop rewarding the people that 
perpetuate it.

Robin in Florida where it is hot again

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Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Starfire Farm]

This message is from: Starfire Farm 


Lori Albrough wrote:

I remember having an email from the owner of a filly I sold, this was 
a long time ago, she was about 18 months old and he was pleased at 
having found someone to "train" her for western but admitted he had 
trouble watching this "training" as they tied her head to her body in 
a bitting rig and left her standing in a stall. 


This is one of the techniques that I was refering to in my earlier post 
and it is a techinque that some trainers use to "teach the horse to 
bend" and to give to the bit. The problem with practice is that the 
horse NEVER gets relief from the position of being bent. I can only 
imagine how their muscles must scream, after a while, from not being 
allowed to straighten out. That is quite different from teaching a horse 
to bring it's head around with a leadrope or a rein, then releasing it 
when it becomes light, or for a light response. VERY different. It blows 
my mind that it is a practice that is still used, and condoned, among 
some trainers.


To look at good "German" classical dressage, one can watch videos of 
Reiner Klimke (as Lori mentioned). The video series, Dressage in Detail 
is a VERY good one. Klimke was always a proponent of allowing the horse 
to go forward, never forced into a frame (driving from behind, holding 
in front) but developing the horse's natural gaits through gymnastic 
movements. Like all trainers, he had his good moments and his bad 
moments, but he was an absolute master. I may have written about this 
before, but I remember watching him school BioTop at the 1995 World Cup. 
Many of the other riders were cranking their horses' heads and necks 
left and right (a pre-cursor to rollkur- Anky was the hot rider at that 
time and wasn't using Rollkur yet..at least not in public) in an attempt 
to get the horses to release their necks and their backs. Klimke would 
ride BioTop forward, then ride half-halts while engaging his horse's 
hindquarters into a halt, pat the horse's neck, let the reins out to the 
buckle to allow him to look around, then take up the reins (at which 
point the horse went immediately into the bridle) and go happily forward 
again. That's how I remember it anyway. The horse looked happy while 
many of the others looked worried. His musical freestyle, though he 
didn't perform double pirouetts or passage half-pass, was one of the 
most free and united rides I have ever seen. Horse and human appeared as 
if they were dancing as one. It brought tears to my eyes and Klimke, 
though he did not win the event, was rewarded with a standing ovation 
from the entire audience. I know that all shows were not always like 
that for Klimke, as I do remember reading on one of the magazines that 
"Klimke was fighting with his stallion again." Exactly what that meant, 
I don't know, but I do know that riding a stallion in competition can be 
a tricky affair!


As for Amazon refering to the Philippe Karl book as another German way, 
I'm not sure where that came from. Reading about him on the book's 
jacket, he has spent all of this time in France, except for two years in 
Germany. He was invited to be an ecuyer (or officer) of the Cadre Noir 
of the Samur, the French National Equestrian school: 
http://www.cadrenoir.fr/en/le-Cadre-noir. Anyway, I don't get the German 
reference. The Cadre Noir has taken on some of the German methods in 
their training, but they also use Baucher's methods. Educated 
trainers/instructors are aware of many different training/riding styles 
and use techniques that suit the horse best.


In terms of choosing a trainer, I tell people to look for someone who 
gets results (by that I mean they are actively doing the sport you are 
interested in, on animals who are visibly content and concentrated in 
their work) AND you are welcome to watch any and all of their methods 
from the ground up and all of it seems sensible and logical to you and 
you are comfortable with it.


Yea, this is excellent advice. Your trainer should be willing to allow 
you to watch everything that they do...they should also have you come 
learn how to use the tools that they have given your horse!


I think the internet will be instrumental in bringing questionable or 
abusive methods - in all of the equestrian sports - to the forefront 
of everyone's awareness. As with everything, education is key to 
effecting long term change for the welfare of the animals.


Agreed.

Beth


--
Starfire Farm
Beth Beymer and Sandy North
http://www.starfirefarm.com

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Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Sarah Clarke]

This message is from: Sarah Clarke 


OK, I have had an essay percolating in me for the last few weeks, and today it
is raining.  Three inches since Monday morning...in San Diego(ish). 
Dressage disgrace triggered me to actually write it.  BTW I completley agree
with everything Robin and Laurie had to say.
I have been riding and training horses for 40 years now.  I was fortunate in
my mid teens to come under the tutelage of Hilda Willis, who began to teach me
dressage without telling me I was learning dressage.  Later I have worked
with dressage instructors and trainers, once I realized that I was not only
doing dressage, but was committed to it.  What you were watching on that
video clip was not dressage.  The rider and horse may have been preparing to
enter a dressage competition – but that was not dressage.
Over the years I have been moderately successful in competition, but there
have also been times when I was the 59% kid, unable to break into the real
scores at a particular level.  I’ve never spent big bucks on a horse, never
trained in Germany, and my riding has been scheduled around the needs of
family and job.  So what is it that keeps me going?  It’s the journey, not
the destination.
A couple of weeks ago I went to a local schooling show.  The price was so
low, they didn’t even have ribbons of any sort.  It may have been my best
show ever.  I showed Nika at training level, Hviske at 1st 3&4.  I got 62%
in all my classes, the horses and I were relaxed and happy, and the judge told
me that she understood the physical limitations of my horses, but she liked
the way I worked with them and she felt that they were on the right path. 
The judge could say this even though I showed a training level Fjord
immediately after an Intermediare I ride by an enormous warmblood.  I took
home her nice comments and held them in my heart, and I liked that better than
another piece of ribbon to add to the wall.
Here are some other moments that I can hold in my heart – other moments on
the journey:
The first time short, stiff backed Nika really gave me her undivided
attention.  Her back was soft, her neck was soft, and she gave me her ear. 
(she was so intent on “listening” to me in the figurative sense that it
was reflected in the literal sense of turning her ears softly back to sense
what I wanted.  Hopefully every horse has this moment on the journey,
Nika’s is just the most recent – and it was like watching a light bulb go
on.
My student got one of my horses completely on the aids- for the first time
ever.  The horse went soft and round, her back came up and she was light –
and the student got what had happened and started laughing for joy.
One of my students and I decided in the same week that Yeti (then about 18
months) needed to learn to go on the longe line.  Independently, on different
days without talking first, we both hooked up a longe line and found out that
Yeti knows how to longe.  Is she that smart, that willing?  We never did
figure out which one of us taught Yeti to longe.
I took the 14 year old idiot savant (4th level warmblood) on a trail ride a
couple of weeks ago.  And he didn’t spook at anything.  The first time in
14 years – finally he trusts me to keep him safe from the killer trees and
rabid rocks that inhabit this wild land of Jamul.
I have shared the journey with many horses, some for a single ride, one from
the first breath until the last one over 20 years later.  I know that some of
them benefitted from my partnership, there are some who may not have,
especially in my younger days when I was less experienced, and more impatient,
but I hope I never betray the trust of a horse, by putting in through misery
or torture just to put another piece of ribbon on the wall.

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Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Robin Churchill]

This message is from: Robin Churchill 


> "training" as they tied her head to her body in a bitting
> rig and left her standing in a stall. 

My personal opinion is that anyone who ties a horse with their head in a 
certain position--to a tree, in the stall, wherever should be taken out and
whipped THEMSELVES. 

 
>  AND you are
> welcome to watch any and all of their methods from the
> ground up and all of it seems sensible and logical to you
> and you are comfortable with it.

I had several trainers that I have ridden with that would have jumped at the 
chance to train Ooruk despite him being a fjord. However, even though I have 
ridden with some of those people, when I was riding the horse, I was there to 
monitor what was going on and to protect him from inappropriate actions. Two of 
the trainers who were interested in him are very accomplished FEI riders but I 
didn't send him to them because I've seen them do things like lose their 
tempers with horses and use the whip more than liberally and I thought 
inappropriately. Whips are to reinforce the leg, not to beat the horse with if 
you get pissed. I think when you lose your temper with a horse, it is time to 
get off. That doesn't mean that you should let horses do what they want, it's 
just that I think when you lose your temper, your effectiveness as a trainer is 
gone and you need to come back another time. I also don't agree that as a rider 
you should be willing to accept any
 kind of treatment from a trainer. Some of these people get results but at what 
price? In terms of treatment of horses, if someone is doing something that you 
think is cruel or inhumane, it probably is and we shouldn't stand for it. In 
dressage, in western, in hunters, in eventing, in saddleseat (it happens in all 
disciplines) people need to show the courage to speak out against abuse and 
stop rewarding the people that perpetuate it.

 

Robin in Florida where it is hot again

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Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Lori Albrough]

This message is from: Lori Albrough 


Starfire Farm wrote:

Training like this, in hyperflexion, is not only seen in dressage competition. 
Unfortunately, one sees similar restriction in the neck in training for reining 
and western pleasure. Why? Because the trainers using these techniques are 
winning.


Beth is right, there is much harmful work taking place across the board 
in all horse disciplines, and much damage being done to horses all in 
the name of "training".


I remember having an email from the owner of a filly I sold, this was a 
long time ago, she was about 18 months old and he was pleased at having 
found someone to "train" her for western but admitted he had trouble 
watching this "training" as they tied her head to her body in a bitting 
rig and left her standing in a stall. This image upset me greatly on 
many levels and I lost a lot of sleep over what I could do. I ended up 
writing a polite letter quoting all manner of successful trainers in all 
disciplines, Sallie Waldron in driving, Reiner Klimke in riding, I can't 
remember them all, stating how harmful it was to try to force the 
horse's neck into a certain shape, and begging him to reconsider the 
training approach and as well waiting until the animal was mature enough 
to train. The owner simply didn't know better and had placed himself and 
the animal in the hands of the trainer, and I am so grateful he did take 
my advice and put a stop to what was happening.


In terms of choosing a trainer, I tell people to look for someone who 
gets results (by that I mean they are actively doing the sport you are 
interested in, on animals who are visibly content and concentrated in 
their work) AND you are welcome to watch any and all of their methods 
from the ground up and all of it seems sensible and logical to you and 
you are comfortable with it.


We have to be very careful not to equate winning riders with abusive 
methods. We only have to look at the success of riders such as the late 
Reiner Klimke, and now his daughter Ingrid, to see riders winning on 
classically trained horses. And there are many other modern riders 
training beautifully and doing well in competition. My own coaches train 
with Holger Muenstermann of Germany (who himself trained with Willi 
Schultheis, Harry Boldt, and Reiner Klimke) and I have watched many of 
their training sessions, and it is just such concentrated, patient, 
exacting work to the training scale of rhythm, relaxation, contact, 
impulsion, straightness and collection. It is beautiful to watch and 
beautiful to see the results in the musculature of the horse brought 
along in this system. When I watched Tina warming up her mother's Grand 
Prix horse for the demo ride they did last weekend, the looseness and 
swing of every muscle as that horse trotted around seemingly to float 
with no visible effort and certainly no tightness anywhere in his body 
or hers, well the angels were singing for me.


I think the internet will be instrumental in bringing questionable or 
abusive methods - in all of the equestrian sports - to the forefront of 
everyone's awareness. As with everything, education is key to effecting 
long term change for the welfare of the animals.


Lori

--
Lori Albrough
Bluebird Lane Fjords
R.R.#3 Moorefield Ont Canada N0G 2K0
phone: 519-638-5598
email: l...@bluebirdlane.com
http://www.bluebirdlane.com

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RE: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Gail Russell]

This message is from: Gail Russell 


For us Newbies.(or not-too bright Olbies like myself).  How does one make
sense of this Amazon review of the book that says there is "another German
way" and that Phillipe Karle diverges from the classical as well?
http://www.amazon.com/review/R39L3SLO2ENVX8/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R39L3SLO2ENV
X8

Sigh...riding instruction drives me crazy.  "Push him up into the bit"  etc.
I could never actually do that stuff, much less want to do it if I could.  My
next riding instructor, I am going to train in TagTeaching so they can
actually teach.  OR...I just have to figure it out for myself.

Thanks for the reference Beth.

Gail

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Re: Dressage Disgrace - not just in dressage

[Starfire Farm]

This message is from: Starfire Farm 


Training like this, in hyperflexion, is not only seen in dressage 
competition. Unfortunately, one sees similar restriction in the neck in 
training for reining and western pleasure. Why? Because the trainers 
using these techniques are winning. Not all top dressage trainers are 
using this technique and many have jumped on the band wagon, speaking 
out against the use of hyperflexion in schooling sessions. If you think 
that Fjords are immune to this style of training, believe me, it's out 
there. I have seen photographs of Fjords being shown with tight, 
restricted necks, neck muscles bulging in contained resistance, all in 
the name of having a pretty head-set. The use of harsh bits (illegal 
bits) for schooling, then being switched for a legal bit just prior to 
the horse entering a class is also inhumane (and a practice that is 
being used at some Fjord shows...all in the name of winning).


This style of training results in the musculature of the horse being 
built incorrectly and can cause serious damage that is difficult to 
repair, if it can be repaired at all. A horse should have relaxed 
muscles when in collection, not tense, bulging muscles. Be VERY careful 
who you place your horses with in training!


I am currently reading a book by Phillippe Karl called Twisted Truths of 
Modern Dressage. The book explains how the musculature of the horse is 
affected by the use of hyperflexion, where the weight ends up being 
distributed and how it affects the horse's entire back, not just the 
neck. Very good diagrams and simple to understand. The book also 
explains the classical methods of training and why they are beneficial, 
not detrimental, to the horse. Even if you are not into classical 
training, it is well worth taking a look at this book to educate 
yourself about humane training techniques to understand whether or not 
your horse is being trained properly.


Beth


--
Starfire Farm
Beth Beymer and Sandy North
http://www.starfirefarm.com

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RE: Dressage Disgrace

[Debbie LeBreton]

This message is from: Debbie LeBreton 


I think that the judges should know better already but I wrote to everyone on
the list.  Very sick to see things like this.

> Subject: Re: Dressage Disgrace
> From: wildjavel...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:58:23 -0700
> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
>
> This message is from: REENA GIOLA 
>
>
> wow, that is just so unacceptable and at that level of riding too! It is
> unbelievable that not one official said anything to that particular rider.
> Thanks for sharing. I posted it to my Facebook page also.
>
> Reena
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Lauren Sellars wrote:
>
> > This message is from: Lauren Sellars 
> >
> >
> > Please take a moment to help change the things we can . It won't take
long
> to see why this is very important. World cup judges need to be told what is
> unacceptable
> > Please take a peek at DressageDisgrace.com
>
<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=Hzmux&m=LkzGiAj2dE.BRz&b=MgNp1jwaiH0AdLiaXP
> xxSA> and support the call to ban Rollkur/Hyperflexion.
>
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>
>

_
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Re: Dressage Disgrace

[REENA GIOLA]

This message is from: REENA GIOLA 


wow, that is just so unacceptable and at that level of riding too!  It is
unbelievable that not one official said anything to that particular rider.
Thanks for sharing.  I posted it to my Facebook page also.

Reena
On Dec 10, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Lauren Sellars wrote:

> This message is from: Lauren Sellars 
>
>
> Please take a moment to help change the things we can . It won't take long
to see why this is  very important. World cup judges need to be told what is
unacceptable
> Please  take a peek at DressageDisgrace.com
 and support the call to ban Rollkur/Hyperflexion.

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Dressage Disgrace

[Lauren Sellars]

This message is from: Lauren Sellars 


Please take a moment to help change the things we can . It won't take 
long to see why this is  very important. World cup judges need to be 
told what is unacceptable
Please  take a peek at DressageDisgrace.com 
 
and support the call to ban Rollkur/Hyperflexion.
the web site seems to be promoted by some awesome groups and individuals 
. Carolyne Resnick and the Epona group to mention a few.

Lauren
Snowy Mtn

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