Driving Redford
This message is from: Alison Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] It sound like a horrible accident. I have been thur something very similar. It is important to get them hooked up again soon. I have heard of one Fjord that a professional trainer had that destroyed two sleights. The horse wasn't scared just mad. He finially used a running W on him. Before you hook him up again make sure that you have britching on him and that you have a noseband on your bridle. The run away that I had was triggered by dogs, but because I had no noseband the cart scared the horse. Good luck! Alison from Alberta where winter has not arrived yet.
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, it still is possible for the animal to be spooked by the saber-toothed chipmunk... Hi Bill, Do you have an image on file of one of these beasties? perhaps I can pin it to the barn door to de-sensitize my weegees, and occasional other breed that I work with now and then! ...All kidding aside, I mainly replied to your post so that I could share some info with the folks out there who are just getting the driving bug, and to de-mystify the bizarre idea thet fjords are born broke. I do agree that when you can hook them with a buddy, like you said, the see monkey -do monkey experience is really beneficial. Here's a little thing I do after introducing the horse to basic harness parts ground driving : I put them in a full draft harness w/ work collar, and we go about our usual routine, this time dragging heel chains, then small tires, then big tires,tarps,stone boat, etc, etc. I always use a helper the first time(s)I attempt a new item on the training menu, and they have ahold of the end of the rope pulling the item, (not knotted or tied), just run thru ring on singletree and back to the hand. One thing I have learned, is that if a horse cannot handle the heel chains other asst'd junk all over their body making noise, they can't progress. I give them ample time, but I prefer to bow out (intact) rather than push something that is gonna hurt me, or somebody else(with less experience perhaps), on down the line. One thing I didn't mention last post, was the comment that Dave and some others had about first time, or non-drivers feeling a lack of control. One of the things I stress with my students is that when we first start (ground driving, then hitched) it's allmost like their arms feel 12 feet long, kind of like Jolly Green giant arms...This distance becomes less of an issue as they fill the gap with experience. Hey - happy driving all!!! __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill - I agree with you in part, that if you have access to an experienced driving horse to start a greenie out with, great! A woderful part of the whole education process. But,never neglect the slow,and to some, (from the tone of your post), boring variations of groundwork. It creates a far more autonomous and confidant driving horse in the long run. Karen, We do not disagree about the value of ground work and initial training. What I meant about the training as part of a pair really only needs to be done for a few days. Then we drive the intended single as a single (but with someone walking alongside holding a lead attached to a halter worn under the bridle) for additional control. It also helps if the cart being used has brakes. By then though, te horse is somewhat used to hearing noise behind it. However, it still is possible for the animal to be spooked by the saber-toothed chipmunk, manhole covers, painted lines on the road, mailboxes, etc., even when they have been exposed to those things in a team hitch --- William M. Coli Extension Educator/ Statewide IPM Coordinator Dept. of Entomology Agricultural Engineering Bldg. UMass Amherst MA 01003 Phone: 413-545-1051 Fax: 413-545-5858 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Always drink upstream from the herd. From: A Cowboy's Guide to Life, by T.B. Bender
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Meredith Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen wrote ... This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] These horses must have become too dependent on the buddy horse, or simply thrown in as part of a pair with insufficient groundwork and then sold off down the road as a single driving horse. 'Cause,hey, they drive don't they?...Then the trouble starts. I have never driven a horse by myself, but if seems to me that if you had an older experienced horse to hitch beside a greeny you could train both single and double driving under controlled situations and in familiar territory. And you can drive double everytime you take the young horse out to do something new or to drive through new territory. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy TN USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Dorina NFR Aagot ~
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...my belief that a green horse, even one which is never planned to be driven as part of a team, should nonetheless be initially trained as the nigh horse of a team... Bill - I agree with you in part, that if you have access to an experienced driving horse to start a greenie out with, great! A woderful part of the whole education process. But,never neglect the slow,and to some, (from the tone of your post), boring variations of groundwork. It creates a far more autonomous and confidant driving horse in the long run. I have come across a horses that were started soley in a pair hitch, usually from the get go. These horses must have become too dependent on the buddy horse, or simply thrown in as part of a pair with insufficient groundwork and then sold off down the road as a single driving horse. 'Cause,hey, they drive don't they?...Then the trouble starts. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am coming into this whole driving discussion a little late, sorry! I am really glad that you were not seriously injured, Robert. I know the psychic damage is the real un-doing in this whole mess. Cynthias comments about working with a very experienced driving mentor and horse, are excellent. Please try to heed her, and take the time to be comfortable with this driving stuff again. Dave's comments about having the magical 15 min window with a horse, were very apt. I have been at this awhile, and all the little signals and hints a horse communicates with are layered in there, and if you don't yet speak the language, there are bound to be some things that get overlooked, and that can mean trouble down the road. A 5yo horse is certainly not too old to learn drive...To me the quality of the handling preceding the driving training is really important, and not to boor anyone, but groundhandling/manners MUST be there,in place, before I even start to lunge or ground drive.To me this indicates that the horse is listening responding. Without this foundation, I don't think a horse knows where he fits in our world, and will revert to the most basic instinct they know, flight. When I first joined this List, I wrote a little about how Mr Sven was a bit of a runaway, and how I dealt with it. I did not use a running W, but only a single leg line, taught to me by the Bowers brothers, and work on the longreins, in the round pen, with a very severe (for me) curb bit. As he was a so-called 'confirmed' driving horse when I bought him, this is the route I took to re-hab him. Should he have been younger, I would have worked differently, and gone back to square one, as I have done for a couple of other horses. As this is getting really longwinded, the last thing I'd like to mention is that not every horse is a driving horse candidate. Some horses have the self confidance to do this kind of work, some don't but are willing to listen to you. Then there are the ones who are so full of 'holes' from bad training, bad breeding, or bad horse/human interactions, that to try and fix them would be an utter waste, not to mention, an un-safe waste of time. Life is just TOO short. Karen PS The driving apron pattern is on its way. I made contact with Susie Newcomb who did the Driving West and CAA article on driving aprons. See ya! __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: William Kelley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean Gayle wrote: This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I usually chuckle when I see big adults driving those miniature carts and mini horses. But now I think that if they made miniature fjords I would start driving them..It seems to me that if they got out of control you could just set your hands and they would have to stop! Or you could just drag your feet and that would slow them down. Right?? Don't be fooled by the size of mini's. I drive them some and you can get hurt just as fast if you don't pay attention. If a car hits you your still both dead. As far as packing a punch ,getting run over by a full size horse is like being hit by a truck, but a mini can still hit like good linebacker, trust me.Both can hurt you if you don't pay attention. Bill Kelley Webster NY forcast sunny 72 deg ( presently 25 deg)
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I usually chuckle when I see big adults driving those miniature carts and mini horses. But now I think that if they made miniature fjords I would start driving them..It seems to me that if they got out of control you could just set your hands and they would have to stop! Or you could just drag your feet and that would slow them down. Right?? Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes Noble Book Stores
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Bushnell's [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill, your posting about first using an older seasoned horse along with a green one is an excellent contributing comment! Actually, Gene mentioned that very same thing when I posted this morning (yes, he really did) but I didn't include it so guess it doesn't count =)) This subject reminds me of the clever tip a fella posted quite some time back about introductory conditioning of a new team by trailering the prospects in tandem around town a while before beginning to drive them; come harnessing time they're already coworkers. Thought it might bear repeating for new folks. I left your message whole, it bears repeating. Ruthie Bushnell At 02:58 PM 11/30/99 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The latest scary stories about wrecks that have occurred when working with green driving horses has reaffirmed my belief that a green horse, even one which is never planned to be driven as part of a team, should nonetheless be initially trained as the nigh horse of a team with the off horse being a large, stable, well-trained (and heavily used) older animal. I'm fine with all the ground-driving, faux shafts, ring work, etc as outlined in Bean's book and carol's videos as well, but I think any horse will benefit from the presence of an experienced older mentor horse, at least at first. In fact, I see no downside to this, other than the inconvinience of finding such a training horse, and the need for (at least) a fore cart with pole. These, however, seem a lot less inconvenient than spending time in hospital (or worse).
Re: Re[2]: Driving Redford
This message is from: Cynthia_Madden/OAA/UNO/[EMAIL PROTECTED] OK, I will tell the story soon, but I think Steve is being really mean, because he always tells me that when I tell people it makes me look really dumb! and here he is wanting me to tell it to the whole list. So look forward soon to the saga of the cart jumping Morgan. (who doesn't drive now, but he is a great trail horse). Cynthia Madden email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The latest scary stories about wrecks that have occurred when working with green driving horses has reaffirmed my belief that a green horse, even one which is never planned to be driven as part of a team, should nonetheless be initially trained as the nigh horse of a team with the off horse being a large, stable, well-trained (and heavily used) older animal. I'm fine with all the ground-driving, faux shafts, ring work, etc as outlined in Bean's book and carol's videos as well, but I think any horse will benefit from the presence of an experienced older mentor horse, at least at first. In fact, I see no downside to this, other than the inconvinience of finding such a training horse, and the need for (at least) a fore cart with pole. These, however, seem a lot less inconvenient than spending time in hospital (or worse).
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cynthia - you made some very good points. As a new driver myself I can't stress enough to go slowly and spend time just bonding with a horse. I did not drive my ll year old gelding much during the first year I owned him. I spent alot of time on the ground; ground driving, leading, manners, grooming - just really getting to know him. Robert - what a scarry situtation! Glad you are not hurt badly and same for your Fjord. When I first got my QH I fell off, in an arena - then, a few months later it happened again - I decided I was just going to fast for the both of us and went back to ground work, etc.. (Both falls were in an English saddle - decided a western saddle was for me!) But, with each fall found myself questioning my relationship with the horse and wondering if a mistake had been made. I kept him, very glad I did and we get along well. Being a new driver, like you, I can only comment on what I did with my Fjord - and, mind you, he was experienced!! As I said above - I went VERY slowly and did alot of ground work - like for a whole summer!! I think even an experienced horse has to learn to work with a new owner - new words, new motions, new everything. When I was ready to get serious about driving I went to a trainer who is familiar with Fjords - that really helped me. He worked with the horse and then also with me. I don't know where you live or if that is a possibility but finding someone familiar with the breed might be helpful. I think every new horse owner has a few incidents that make them step back and re-evaluate - yours was just a BIG incident. Best of luck to you and please, let us know how you and Redford are doing. Linda in MN - gosh it is cold today - nasty wind!!!
Re: Re[2]: Driving Redford
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, Cynthia, Now you gotta tell us all about the jumping cart! Jean At 11:31 AM 11/30/1999 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean-- Tuesday, November 30, 1999, you wrote: ...he just leaned on them and bolted for the gate!. Surely he'll stop for the gate!! I thought as we neared it...but no, HE JUMPED the gate! But carts don't jump!... Not necessarily true! Ask Cynthia. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA What a piece of work is a horse! In action how like an angel! In apprehension how like a man! --James Agate(1877-1947) Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[2]: Driving Redford
This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean-- Tuesday, November 30, 1999, you wrote: ...he just leaned on them and bolted for the gate!. Surely he'll stop for the gate!! I thought as we neared it...but no, HE JUMPED the gate! But carts don't jump!... Not necessarily true! Ask Cynthia. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA What a piece of work is a horse! In action how like an angel! In apprehension how like a man! --James Agate(1877-1947)
Driving Redford
This message is from: Cynthia_Madden/OAA/UNO/[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am sorry to hear about your incident with Redford and I am glad your physical injuries are minimal. I have been there and done that with my Morgan. I did eventually have to give up driving him. I know the incident is very serious and shakes the confidence of both you and the horse. I would disagree that at five he is too old to learn to drive. At five a Fjord is still mentally maturing.I also know many older horses who have turned into wonderful driving horses. Steve's Morgan was 16 and becoming a driving horse gave him the first career he really enjoys. I had to accept that what happend with Keyah was a combination of my being too eager and ignorant and his mental attitude. What I suggest is that you give both yourselves some time to recover and then get very experienced help. You need to feel more confident in your driving skills (working with another experienced horse is an excellent idea) and he needs a very skilled and patient trainer to help him overcome his trauma. And he may not overcome it, but Fjords are so intelligent and willing that you both deserve a second try. Since you obviously made some mistakes in judgement in not harnessing him properly and you may have pushed him a little hard in taking him out of his safe area on your fourth attempt at driving him, I would sure hope you guys give each other another chance. Please remember that I am not being critical of you. It's just that I did the same thing as a beginning driver. I learned my lesson and started working with someone who knew what they were doing and that made all the difference. You can learn from this experience and move on to have a good time driving. I wish you both success in your driving endeavor. Cynthia Madden email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Ingrid Ivic [EMAIL PROTECTED] I 've never been so scared. I tore muscles in my shoulder and still it aches . I know he was bruised . Now I have a fear of even riding my Fjords. Today I did make plans with a trainer/ instructor to try to bond and ride again. But Martha thinks he won't be suitable for driving. We think he bolted not out of fear but because of attitude. Robert... Oh my!! What a horrible accident. I can totally understand taking things very, very slowly after something like this happening. It had to have been one of the most terrifying experiences...gave me chills just reading about it. I would suppose some horses never make good driving horses, for various reasons, even if they are fjords. Interesting to note what Gail D. said too... This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think sometimes our placid fjords take a while to react, and you think they're all done with something and move on and they just aren't ready to react yet. Then it comes like it would with any other horse, just delayed. This is very true...easy to be fooled by a placid, seemingly non-reactive horse. I have to catch myself now and then, not move too quickly with new experiences, give them time to let it all sink in some more...even if it seems boring and repetitive. More often than not, they do react somehow, even if in a small way. Hope no one received any long lasting injuries and you can bond once again with a horse. Difficult thing, I know. Ingrid in Ohio
driving Redford
This message is from: Bushnell's [EMAIL PROTECTED] That sounded like a terrible experience Robert. How well we all know lessons in caution can be mighty painful. There was a John Lyons sample periodical a few months ago in which he stated that driving is more dangerous than riding; more control seated. I can't recall the exact quote but that was the gist. I've noticed that often as equestrians age their riding thoughts gravitate toward driving thoughts; thinking they're gearing down to safer. This safe-driving misconception results in a false sense of security. It's a good idea to first work a horse/horses before striking out on the open road and we also recommend an enclosed fence for beginners; same principle as riding. It makes sense too to start out with some kind of a warmup chariot, before you try out your new Meadowbrook = Gene never hooks up to his precious handcrafted stagecoach first off, even though Dun and Dunner are seasoned well behaved boys. I often hear about Easy Entry carts, but I say you can have them, I want an Easy EXIT cart! =) had to let you all know I'm still here, in NW MT and as to date there is no snow yet!! wonderful. Ruthie Bushnell
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert - What a horrible accident! I know how you feel after a wreck. I've been thrown a few times - and it definitely takes one from being optimistic and invincible to *very scared.* I hope your shoulder is OK.A. Must have been that Fjord bee that stung some of your horses! SHE ALSO THINKS HE'S TO OLD (5YRS) TO LEARN TO DRIVE. SHE WANTS ME TO BUY AN OLDER AND VERY EXPERIENCED DRIVING HORSE TO LEARN ON . I REALLY AM STARTING TO ___UNDERSTAND NOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF A GREEN PERSON ON A GREEN BROKE HORSE. SO WEAR A HELMET AND BE CAREFUL . I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW LITTLE CONTROL YOU HAVE WHEN YOU DRIVE! Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clicker List Web Site : http://clickryder.cjb.net
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Upon reading this carefully the second time, I noticed you said you didn't have the breeching on! Why? Is it possible that this caused the problem? Did the cart hit him in the butt? Seems like this might be a possibility! I'm so glad you didn't get hurt and the horse didn't get permanently injured! This driving IS scarey business! Anyway, on the 4th day we drove him outside , past panicing rearing horses but big T was calm ,went up the road, across a bridge , up a hill. On the way back Martha decided to get out to lead him slowly down the hill because we didn't have the breeching on. She put the lead line on his halter. As we aproached the arena, with no warning, all hell broke loose. He bolted so quickly that all was a blur and I heard her yell * Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, gonna be cold again tonight! (-25-30) Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think sometimes our placid fjords take a while to react, and you think they're all done with something and move on and they just aren't ready to react yet. Then it comes like it would with any other horse, just delayed.
Re: Driving Redford
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Lord, Bob that was a total disaster and thank God you and the horse made it through. Imagine you junked the cart. I do not understand these few times I have heard of the sudden runaway horse. Did your horse show this behavior before? Do you think it finally dawned on him that a huge monster with big whirly things was behind him? It is late in the season for bees. I do not blame you for being scared, whew. This is a situation for the flying W in skilled hands. It usually stops such behavior. But your idea of a well schooled driving horse sounds best to me. Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes Noble Book Stores
Driving Redford
This message is from: Robert Merkle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi sheri The step from ground driving to hitching can seem like one small step for man but a giant step for horse. Several weeks ago I took that step . I was working with a trainer,watched a tape by Doris Ganton dozens of times, read her book, bought BDF tape on driving, used poles, and ground drove many hours. With Martha's advise we hitched him several times inside the arena for about 45 min.each time for about a week. His manners are very good. He stood perfectly still while she showed me how to hitch. Anyway, on the 4th day we drove him outside , past panicing rearing horses but big T was calm ,went up the road, across a bridge , up a hill. On the way back Martha decided to get out to lead him slowly down the hill because we didn't have the breeching on. She put the lead line on his halter. As we aproached the arena, with no warning, all hell broke loose. He bolted so quickly that all was a blur and I heard her yell I can't hold him! ,turn him. That probably saved me. At this point he was in a full blown runaway. I gathered one rein and was able to bring him to the left. He was bucking and kicking the cart like mad. He ran into the fence , I flew over the front of the cart , hit him from behind ,fell between him and the cart, and landed under him and the cart. I figured he would trample me but he took off with the cart. All I could think of was that he was going to get really hurt . He was running full blast and the cart was bouncing in the air. I knew I was hurt but I got up and ran after him . Martha was way ahead of me and yelled back to see if I was OK. Big T was out of sight and when we caught up to him we could see that he had tried to get into the outside arena , caught the cart, ripped the traces ,and there he stood at one end and the cart at the other. I 've never been so scared. I tore muscles in my shoulder and still it aches . I know he was bruised . Now I have a fear of even riding my Fjords. Today I did make plans with a trainer/ instructor to try to bond and ride again. But Martha thinks he won't be suitable for driving. We think he bolted not out of fear but because of attitude. Must have been that Fjord bee that stung some of your horses! SHE ALSO THINKS HE'S TO OLD (5YRS) TO LEARN TO DRIVE. SHE WANTS ME TO BUY AN OLDER AND VERY EXPERIENCED DRIVING HORSE TO LEARN ON . I REALLY AM STARTING TO ___UNDERSTAND NOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF A GREEN PERSON ON A GREEN BROKE HORSE. SO WEAR A HELMET AND BE CAREFUL . I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW LITTLE CONTROL YOU HAVE WHEN YOU DRIVE!
