White Markings -- Some Food for Thought
This message is from: Steve McIlree This discussion of white markings and how they should be considered in breeding decisions has got me again thinking on a issue which seems to me to be too often overlooked by many Fjord folks. That is the fact that the worldwide gene pool of the Fjordhorse emanates from a single stallion, Njal 166, just over a century ago. So is it possible that eliminating from breeding an otherwise excellent stallion because of some white marking might just be "throwing out the baby with the bath water"? When this discussion started I remembered reading on the Website maintained by a woman from Oslo who was an early member of the List, that in the 19th Century Fjords came in colors other than dun, perhaps even Piebalds. Unfortunately she shut down the site due to lack of time after having a child. But this memory haunted me so I went Googling to see if I could find some existing reference. I found the following on the Website entitled "horse genetics" ( http://goo.gl/kQQoOl) under a sub link devoted to the Fjord Horse ( http://goo.gl/ErjZT3): Originally the breed is known to have included bay and brown horses. Presumably chestnut and the cream dilute colors (palomino, buckskin etc.) also existed in the Norwegian Fjord Horse since the genes for these appear to be in the current day population. At the end of 1800's the Norwegian Fjord Horse almost died out. Todayâs horses all descend from a single surviving stallion, Njal 166, who was born 1891. In genetic terms he is known as a *founder* stallion: his genes have influenced the development of the entire breed and are carried by all living Norwegian Fjord Horses. Because so few individuals survived the genetic diversity of the breed was much reduced, and some alleles were lost altogether, possibly including the AA and At alleles of the agouti locus. The breed went through what is called a *genetic bottleneck*. At the time of the bottleneck the wild-type allele at the dun locus seems to have been lost, so that now all Norwegian Fjord Horses are dun. In this breed the dun allele therefore is the only allele at the locus and is said to be *fixed* (i.e. its frequency is 100%). The colors of Norwegian Fjord horses are shown in the table below and discussed thereafter. As the subject line states, this is offered as "Food for Thought" and hopefully some discussion. â â -- Steve It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-- Aristotle 384-322 BC Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Food for thought regarding Coggins tests
This message is from: "Gayle Ware" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi, I have been following the many discussions and different perspectives in regard to coggins testing. I get the impression that folks think they are 'safe' if all horses have a negative coggins. Kinda like the new airport security screening - folks feel confident that with the tighter security - terrorists won't be able to blow up any more planes. UH HUH! I guess that requiring coggins testing is better than nothing at all, but I have always questioned their validity primarily because, once a horse tests negative, they are 'good to go' for 6 months to a year - depending on each different state. Did the thought ever occur to anyone else that, 5 minutes after the vet draws blood, the horse could be bitten by an infected bug? And the horse is 'good to go' for many months? Honestly, to be really effective, coggins should be done more often - maybe everytime a horse leaves the property?! HEAVEN FORBID!! PLEASE no flaming arrows. I do get coggins and health and every other thing that the law requires to travel. I just wanted to put that on the table - food for thought. Gayle Ware Field of Dreams Eugene, OR www.fjordhorse.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
food for thought
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A quote from the Minutes " The board discussed a members proposal that every stallion be evaluated. The consensus of the board was that such a recommendation needs additional study and was tabled for the time being." Bully for the board to realize such a change should be very well thought out as well as researched. the complications that could come from this are a problem for the breed. However the education could be greatly used. Fine line which needs to be walked carefully. I am glad that the Board has the foresight to put this in good hands to protect and preserve the Fjord breed. There are pros and cons to everything I see this could be a tool for education. I also see there could be a false sense of security in breeding to a score/ ribbon color. Not all put as much thought into breeding as most of you do. Thank You to the BOD, Roberta
Fjord types and food for thought
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is original statements form Pat Holland. The QH industry went through all of this in the 70's - which it was a time I was deeply involved. The bulldog vrs the TB type. Oh my,.. the shows were a "fun" place to be at. At one time the halter classes looked like a stairwell - 1st place the tallest and most refined - on down. One of the reason the peanut-roller effect came into being was that as the horses grew longer and taller they were also traveling longer and more fluid - people began "cranking" them in and creating the artificial movement the industry is trying to get out of now. And might I add - becoming successful at. This is From Lynda Welch. I believe this to be a wrong move and hazardous to the longevity of the breed. It does not matter if people are more into riding in the modern day, or whatever discipline is the current trend! The point of the matter is the Norwegian Fjord has always been a versatile horse that is a wonderful family companion. Some Norwegian Fjords are exceptional, and show highly in specific disciplines and this is truly wonderful, whereas other Norwegian Fjords are outstanding family horses. Through the years, they have been used for a variety of purposes and do each of them well WITHOUT us messing around with their body type. What I simply cannot understand is if people really want a refined horse, why on earth do they not go with a breed that already has this quality? Now my food for thought. I also was involved in the QH world and still have ties their ( I was born a QH girl, I left the QH world because of this messing with what worked and other stuff along with many others I know ). My experience tells me that the QH I use to ride are now starting to reemerge after 30 ish years of messing with type. Along with the finer refined QH's came built in health issues remember the surgance of navicular?? Amongst other leg problems that rendered many horses burnt out at ages when they should be starting to thrive. Their are still lines that you just don't buy knowing that you will get leg problems along with the price. Imagine a big powerful body on pretty little feet and thin legs, the mechanics of this combination just doesn't work. I wonder the pounds per strike those feet are absorbing at the walk, trot, and canter? Maybe we are remembering the negative instead of the other things that came from this type changing. Crossing the QH with the TH came the Appendix QH, now the Foundation QH ( which is back to the original that worked ). Could this be why the Qh registry is so big, they have off shoots of the original and than back to the original?? Looks to me that the QH has gone full circle, is this what the Fjord folks want to do go 30 ish years trying to make a great thing better and than end up back where started? That's a lot of effort. I will raise and show what I like (within the written standards) if the judge or others don't like what I have to offer so be it. I have to please myself first and I know that their will be people that will appreciate what I have to offer. An associate of mine kept breeding, raising,and training the now called Foundation stock QH and now folks are coming back. Yes it's been long and hard road but her diligence and dedication to herself is paying off once again. A quality breeding program with people of high standards and integrity is always in demand and hard to find, once found their are referrals and return customers. So as sad as it would be to see the Fjord go the way of the QH ( which Thank God is starting to make a come back) their may be some good that comes from it, but at what cost ? I just hope that those that choose to go that route have some education in breeding so that the FH don't end up heavy in the feed lots being culled out. Roberta
Re: Food for thought just maybe......
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori...I wondered, too, if it was a "January" thing:)
Re: Food for thought just maybe......
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Deb wrote: > to the increase in our recent intensity on this message board. I think it may be a seasonal affect, it happens every year... it's called "January" :-) Lori
Re: Food for thought just maybe......
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I like your thoughts, Deb..Linda in MN
Food for thought just maybe......
This message is from: "Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As I am reading all these posts, including mine, they seem more passionate, more pointed, more important than at other times when I have read posts. I had a picture conjure up in my mind of Fjords all over the world. Some were in the fields pulling plows. Some were taking hay to market. Some were riding through mountains on trails with gorgeous views. Some were working in arenas doing dressage work. Some were just enjoying their people. Every where Fjords were doing something. Then I saw them turn to each other, remember this is in my imagination :-), and shrug their shoulders wondering what all the commotion was about. Then they each went back to doing what they were doing with no other thought than to please their owner and looking forward to their next meal. (looking forward to the next meal may have been top priority!) I couldn't help but wonder if the current state of world affairs and current economic conditions through out the world weren't in some way contributing to the increase in our recent intensity on this message board. Of course this is all a theory and perhaps it only may apply to me. I just thought it was interesting and food for thought. Having shared that thought I think I will go outside and hug on Lars for awhile. I just love getting lost in his furry coat and smelling him. Deb
Przewalski's food for thought (long)
This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm on the digest, so sorry for the delay of topic. I have read somewhere that one very good reason for Przewalski's not being ridden/domesticated frequently is that they can drop to the ground and roll to scrape off their rider. Of course, in my following source, there is a photo of a wildcaught stallion being ridden (early 1900's photo). Zoonooz newsletter, December 1991 issue, published by San Diego Zoological Society, "Back in the USSR", pp 6-11. "One horse lacked black pigmentation altogether, being reddish or fox-colored." *Is this what we know as "Fjord" red dun expressed in a Przewalski's? *Next up: an older book on Przewalski's horses... Weeks, Morris. The Last Wild Horse. Houghton Mifflin Company: Boston, 1977. pp. 39-40: "Two distinct types emerged from the smaller [common ancestor] horse and survived to modern times. One was the Przhevalsky of Asia. The other was the lesser known tarpan, the wild horse of the southern Russian grassland. Not much bigger than a pony, but strongly muscled, the tarpan was lighter and less chunky than the Przhevalsky. Its head was short, its ears small and pointed. Its coat was a light gray. But it had some features like a Przhevalsky's, including a black stripe along the back and a mane that stood straight up. Its winter coat was very pale, almost white." *hmmm, sounds like grey dun in Fjords... and the foxy little ears and short face sound like desired Fjord characteristics. p. 50: "The tarpan may well have been the ancestor of some domesticated horses still found in the rural areas of eastern Europe..." *The author cites the hutsul (Hucul?) and the Konik. The few photos I have seen of Koniks really bring to mind Fjords. He mentions the dun factor and the light-colored winter coat. The author also says that despite chromosomal differences, domestic horse and Przewalski's crosses are fertile, unlike most equine hybrids (mules & hinnies). The previously mentioned source (1991) said that despite claims of hybrids infiltrating captive breeding programs, DNA testing found these "questionable" animals, in all their various dun colors, to be pure Przewalski's. There is also an incorrect statement made as an example of how Prz. & domestic horses differ, p. 24: "...domestic horses don't shed their mane and tail hairs on an annual basis.(Like people, they lose and replace one hair at a time.)" *Most horse people would pipe up here with the Bashkir Curly (a domestic breed that goes quite bald annually), interestingly enough, a mutation thought to have originated in eastern Europe, and surfaced again in the USA. Has anyone had a Fjord shed out a large percentage of its mane & tail hair in spring sheds? In regards to Fjords (trying to stay on topic here!), this was interesting regarding spring shed: p. 22: "If the [Przewalski's horse] is ailing at this season, or getting old, the mane hairs may take longer to replace, and the whole mane temporarily falls over to one side." *If Fjords aren't trimmed regularly, their manes fall over to the side, as everyone on the list knows. This is the first reference I have found to a Przewalski's mane being thick enough to flop. If only we had true (not reconstructed) tarpans to look at! In my opinion, Fjords are closer to ancestral tarpans than Przewalski's horses and have been selectively bred for so long that the only real hints we have to go by are the dun colorations- ironically, dun is a dominant modifier gene. Once it's in a line, it will continue to be expressed, modifying whatever base color is inherited... forever! Just having fun and so looking forward to the arrival of my Fjord geldings! Kristina http://www.lucasfrancisstudio.com/animal_art/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Food for thought, etc.
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Knutsen Fjord Farm wrote: > > Registered with the NFHR [including a few deceased and a lot of young stock] > are; > 3853 mares > 989 geldings > 1185 stallions Hmmm, not exactly. It is true that there are that many mares, stallions, and gelding in the NFHR database, but those horses are not necessarily all registered with the NFHR. Many of the horses in the database are there because they make up the ancestors of horses who ARE registered with the NFHR. To get a true picture of the gender breakdown of NFHR registered horses, you need to restrict your search to horses who have a NFHR Registration Number. The one thing in common to all NFHR Registration Numbers is the hyphen "-", so if we redo the search with a hypen in the NFHR Registration Number field, and ask for number of mares, geldings and stallions, this is what we get: 1850 mares 986 geldings 370 stallions... The number of stallions and geldings doesn't nearly add up to the number of mares, but that may be because some people don't bother to register geldings. If we sort the stallion list by Birth Date (click on the Birth Date column) we can see that 74 of the NFHR registered stallions were born in 1999 or later, so some of them may be - or be about to become - geldings also. Some of the horses in the above figures may well be deceased, but the only way to figure that one is to count them by hand. The numbers do look a lot more "sane" now though. Lori
Food for thought, etc.
This message is from: "Knutsen Fjord Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all - In my wanderings, I discovered this information on the NFHR Pedigree Search site : Registered with the NFHR [including a few deceased and a lot of young stock] are; 3853 mares 989 geldings 1185 stallions And buyers are looking for trained geldings - what's wrong with this picture...? Pardon me, while I go look for my scissors, I know they're around here somewhere, because I've used them twice on very nice colts, one of which got a Red in Conformation and Movement at the Eugene Evaluation before he was two. Ducking, but not running! Still waiting on Sadie. Flxtren's pacing up and down nervously in the waiting room at Julie's, she reports. Poor guy. Doug and I are fighting over who Gets to sleep in the tack room tonight. What's wrong with This picture? That Marine Corps cot isn't That comfy Doug's running into town now for some more dill pickles and ice cream. He always gets so hungry in situations like this. Next we'll be fighting over who has to kiss the goat Bye now, Peg Knutsen - Ellensburg, WA http://www.eburg.com/~kffjord/
Food for thought
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/16/01 4:57:46 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << those were the "toasted" fjords that belong to Howard Berge, I am sure! I think they were POA/Hackney/Fjord x's...now how is THAT for mixing it up >> Toasted Fjords ? Cherry Fjords ? Are people hungry when they name these guys or what ? Chocolate / Rasberry Fjords.hmm.LP
