In Henry's memory
This message is from: Frederick J Pack friendlyf...@hughes.net REMEMBER ME When you hear the thunder remember me for those are my hoof beats upon your heart deep in the night. Do not fear the lightning and remember me for my hooves strike sparks so you may see in your darkest hour. And when the rain falls remember me for those are my tears of joy as I run with the sky herd free of rein and heavy burden. Look up and remember me for you will see the shape of my head thrown high among the clouds, warmed by the sun but even more because you remember me. R.I.P. Henry Heather, if you were nearbyI would wrap my arms around you and try to carry some of your emotional burden. Fred and Lois All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
RE: Fjord memory 2009
This message is from: Karen McCarthy weeg...@hotmail.com Yeah Teressa, I remember coming upon that scene. We thought some ET's had landed @ the outdoor arena @ Moses Lake and taken over the horses...it was pretty cool watching your minions leaping to fro through the truck headlights! Kmac , where I just got home from the Christmas eve carriage stroll w/ the pair. All went well, lots of happy people at the party had their 1st carriage ride. My fingers are still on defrost. :: Karen McCarthy :: Great Basin Fjords :: Madras, Oregon :: http://www.picturetrail.com/weegees From: tere...@kodiakfishco.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Fjord memory 2009 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:58:59 -0800 This message is from: Teressa tere...@kodiakfishco.com Though I wish I had a video, my somewhat (ok, very) bad memory keeps replaying this scene. Just before the Northwest Fjord Show this past August, it was too hot to school the horses during the day. So Marg, Ingrid and I took the minions (Zoe, Kristen, and McKenzie) back to the hotel for a swim and then to dinner so we could go back to the show grounds when it would be somewhat cooler. Minions had on shorts. Ingrid and I stopped at Wal-Mart to get yet more water so Marg and the minions got back to the horses sooner than we did. Unfortunately, I had the key to the trailer tack room, where minion breeches were kept. It got late. It got dark. Horses still needed schooling. Jumps had to be set. So schooling was in the dark, minions in shorts and tall boots. Trucks arrayed around the arena with lights on to give some illumination. Horses kicking up the pervasive fine dust so it was like a scene from a fairy tale. Minions schooling fjords over jumps in the headlights, coming out from the darkness into swirling dust and spotlights trained on the jumps. Fjords looking awesome in the scene. Minions laughing. All of us with huge smiles having the time of our lives - even though we weren't the ones on the horses. Teressa in sunny but cold Northwest Washington - what were your best fjord memories of 2009? Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
site for Memory Plastic, saddle sizing
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.equimeasure.com/ This is the site for the memory plastic to help in saddle sizing. Site says it's reusable. Heat it up and it conforms to the horse's back - cools and retains the shape. Thank you, Deb in Idaho from the HaflingerFriends eList, for sharing that very helpful site info! You were the first person to post it - much appreciated! This is the sort of thing I was looking for, to help in getting a good fit for my hard to size horses! Think this should even work for ponies. After all, not every saddle shop will allow to bring in the horse to check if the saddle fits right - like the Aussie saddle shop near me (won't let you!) which is the only Aussie saddle shop in my whole mid-state! LOL Sher
Memory plastic for Saddle sizing?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...There is one company that manufactures a memory plastic type of thing that you warm up in your oven and put on your horse's back. When it is cold, it will retain the shape of the back... This company is news to me! This sounds MUCH better than the old wire hanger method!:-) Seems logical that we'd put a sheet or such over the horse's back, then the heated plastic - am geussing, as I've never seen this before. But, sounds WONDERFUL for getting a mold of the hard to fit horses (or even if there's just the question of sizing!) !! Anyone know the name of this company, what state they are in? Perhaps a website address, or even a phone # to contact? I believe this is something a LOT of equestrian folks would like to hear more about, aside from just my eager self!LOL Sher Aurora, Colorado
Memory?
This message is from: Knutsen Fjord Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome to the Digest, Teresa. And congratulations on your success at the Stallion Show, Joe. The Fjord Memory story was great! I thinks Fjords in general have exceptional memories, but that may just be due to my lack of experience with other breeds. We did have a hilarious experience with Fjord memory here yesterday. We are still busy trying to get set up at the new place, and the next item on the agenda is setting up the phantom mare Tushie for AI collections. Now, as some of you may recall, Tushie is nothing more than 3 sections of telephone pole covered in firm foam and lots of duct tape, much repaired. Her black electrical tape dorsal stripe has long since fallen off. Well, yesterday she was transported by tractor bucket over to her new location near Erlend's paddock. Out the window we saw His Majesty racing up and down and generally showing off in his paddock. We thought the tractor might have spooked him, although that would have been unusual. But, no, he was just delighted by Tushie's unexpected arrival! He kept up this silliness for about 10 minutes - I guess, even lying on her side, she was still irresistible Go figure. I'm not sure whether this is a testament to his good memory or his testosterone-lowered IQ, but we had quite a chuckle. Still no foals. Bye from Peg, bleary-eyed in Ellensburg. Peg Knutsen - Ellensburg, WA http://www.elltel.net/kffjord/
Re: memory
This message is from: Deb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean, you are right about selling animals short on memory, lots of other things as well. Although this isn't about Fjords 20 plus years ago I heard about a couple of ships that were out on the Atlantic. Each ship verified, independently, this sighting: There were 3 whales swimming at the surface of the water. The middle whale was being supported by the other two as the middle whale had been harpooned and the other two whales were keeping it up. It has always grieved me when humans act as though we have the lock and key on compassion, intelligence, emotions, dreams etc. I often have wondered what species really is at the top of the hierarchy. Perhaps the food chain isn't the only measurement. :-) Deb
Re: How much memory?
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, it may not be a book on animal Memory exactly but read 'KINDRED SPIRITS' by Allen M.Schoen, DVM: How the remarkable bond between humans and animals can change the way we live You will love this book! Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, clear and moderately cold, temperature inversion : +10 at my house, -12 downtown. If there's not been a book done on the memory of animals Jean, there certainly should be! Ruthie, nw mt http://www.libby.org/~bushnell Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How much memory?
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of the memory of the horse? Certainly being mistreated leaves a memory. Jean I believe animals have much more in the way of a memory than we even begin to give them credit for, call it anthropomorphizing if you will, but there are countless stories of their grieving the loss of a master, or a pet mate. There's a classic case right here in Montana, a favorite story of mine, a dog story that really happened in the 1930's which portrays a devotion (and a memory) that defies all rational explanation. A sheepdog's master died and his body was shipped away. As the coffin was loaded at the train station an onlooking dog was seen pitifully whining. Every day thereafter for 5-1/2 years until his death, the dog faithfully met each incoming train, searching for his beloved master. Old Shep, as he was known, has a bronze sculpted likeness as a tribute to his faithfulness on a hill overlooking the abandoned tracks in Fort Benton, MT. Just one of thousands of illustrations of an animal's ability to love, and to remember because of that love. Which of course includes Fjords as well! = If there's not been a book done on the memory of animals Jean, there certainly should be! Ruthie, nw mt http://www.libby.org/~bushnell
Re: How much memory?
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whoa, that is really long term memory Steve. I think we really sell our animals short on many things because they do not speak our language. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: How much memory?
This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean-- Thursday, January 23, 2003, you wrote: I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of the memory of the horse? Several years ago we move our horses back to a boarding facility where they had been boarded a number of years earlier. The first time we went out for a ride on the trails through the forest, the horses seemed to be more comfortable than they usually are on unfamiliar trails. After a bit we came to a side trail which was actually a shortcut back to the barn. Even though this new trail lay in a direction entirely away from the barn, the horses tried to take it as if they remembered it was the way home even though had not been on it in thirteen years. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA How silent the woods would be if only the best birds sang. --Oliver Wendel Holmes
How much memory?
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Last week a lady and her husband came to look at my Holsteiner mare that is for sale. We walked into the field where Gunnar and the mare were feeding at the far side. Gunnar is very easy to catch, just stands wherever he is and waits for you to halter him. This time as we started into the field he threw up his head, ears stretching up, and let out a squeal and came thundering toward us. I told the couple to stand still as he would not hurt them and it appeared he thought he knew them. As he drew near he circled still squealing and the mare decided it was her turn so she joined him in a great rush which set me back a bit. The visitors must have thought it was always like this. Gunnar circled several times and then stopped and went to grazing and I caught him easily. He paid little attention to the couple and I think he realized they were not who he thought. It was rather sad. I have had him three years now and he had gone through quite a few owners being spoiled and mistreated. I am sure he is waiting for someone, or simply thought he knew someone he obviously cared a great deal for. I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of the memory of the horse? Certainly being mistreated leaves a memory. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Fund in Memory of Julie Will
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello- If you would like to make a donation in memory of Julie Will, the family is requesting a donation to the Peloton Project 2003/Lance Armstrong Foundation. Darryl is a member of the Peloton Foundation and will be riding in the bicycle race in Austin, Texas next year. So, log onto www.laf.org to make a donation... If you fill in the Member Name with Darryl Wolford and give his Member Number as 200048965, your donation will also help to sponsor his race in memory of Julie! Or... You can send your check made out to the LANCE ARMSTRONG FOUNDATION to: Lance Armstrong Foundation PO Box 161150 Austin, Texas 78716-1150 Take Care Friends- Pat McCurdy Cato, NY PS- My prayers are with Chloe and her family!
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:27 PM 10/22/2001 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] That will probably be Nansy's legacy---the people that she infected with the Fjord-v*rus. She only had one foal---a stud colt who bred one mare a few times---so her genes probably haven't spread very far. I do only have one offspring listed for her but ULVAR 161-B did breed the same mare, Sala at least 7 times. I have 6 mares one stallion registered from this same cross. Ulvar's son Sverre now has 24 offspring on the ground. So Grandma Nansy has quite a few horses out there with her in their lines actually. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nansy was special to me too, because it was your stories about her on the rec.eq newsgroup way back when that first piqued my interest in Fjordhorses. If it weren't for her (and you!) I might never have become involved with these exceptional horses. That will probably be Nansy's legacy---the people that she infected with the Fjord-v*rus. She only had one foal---a stud colt who bred one mare a few times---so her genes probably haven't spread very far. I suspect that her inability to get/stay pregnant was an early symptom of her developing Cushings. OTOH, if Nansy hadn't flunked as a broodmare, Nancy (Clow) Lehnert probably would never have sold her to me Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi there Marsha,
I am so very sorry to hear about Nansy. I remember her so well the time
we stopped by to visit. Brigid really loved her, I saw her care for her when
you were here in Ca. Brigid has a knack for loving hands on those wonderful
old people horses. We were very fortunate to be able to see her one more
time. I can only imagine the inner pain of losing your first love. My heart
goes out to you.
We are getting closer of our dream to come to Oregon, perhaps we could
stop by again. your friend (s) Jack ('n Brigid of course)
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha Jo Hannah wrote: I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning. I'm so sorry to hear that Marsha! Nansy was special to me too, because it was your stories about her on the rec.eq newsgroup way back when that first piqued my interest in Fjordhorses. If it weren't for her (and you!) I might never have become involved with these exceptional horses. Hard to imagine, now. Take care, Lori
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Don Brackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Marsha, I am so sorry. It makes me cry reading of all of the horses that people have lost on the list. Just trying to imagine how I would feel if it were Osa or Geilo. I hope they live such a full life as Nancy. She must have left a huge hole in your life, impossible to replace. Jane Marsha Jo Hannah wrote: This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning.
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha, I'll feel with you! It is hard to lose a friend.
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Major tears Marsha! : ( : ( : ( Nansy was a favorite. I'm so glad I got to care for her, and see her again in Oregon. I think she was really happy there in your new home. I have at least one good snapshot of her from our visit, which I will send to your email. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Our /A A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Fjords/A / )__~ /L /L
In Memory
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know exactly how you feel having lost my 31 year old mare last year. My sincere sympathy to you. I cried reading your story about Nansy. Carol 'n Patrick
Re: In Memory
This message is from: dragonriffic_designs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha I am so sorry to hear about Nansyshe sounds like a wonderful mare...you will have tons of memories to remember her by. reena Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:18:52 -0700 From: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: In Memory This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/2001
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha, We are so sorry for your loss. Our thoughts are with you. Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marsha I am so sorry you had to call the Vet. Why can't these loves do it for us? She was an old darling and as you say will be sorely missed. Many good wishes Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, Wa 98563
in loving memory
This message is from: Joanna Crell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nansy will be in heaven with my Luna teaching her all about what it was like to grow older and be so loved. all my sympathy. Joanna Joanna Crell and David Folger, directors Willowind Therapeutic Riding and Driving Center State Highway 3 Box 1140 Eden Bar Harbor, Maine 04609 phone and fax (207) 288-9506 http://www.willowind.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning. We're very sorry to hear of your sad parting, Marsha Jo, but knowing you've done everything possible for her must be a great comfort. May the Lord hold you close and ease your sadness. Our best to you, Ruthie and Gene
RE: In Memory....
This message is from: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Marsha, Please accept our deepest sympathy. Unfortunately, that time will come for all of us. Fred Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, WA USA http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3158
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/18/2001 2:34:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the one that I would go out to brush when my life needed a dose of the serenity that she seemed to exude. I'm sure everyone on the list can relate to this one sentiment, what a precious gift we receive when we allow ourselves to love to this magnitude. I'm very sorry for your loss. Carol Prairie Duster in Michigan
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: Pat Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sm so sorry for your loss. Best friends are so hard to let go. pat wilson ttfn Marsha Jo Hannah wrote: This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning. Over the last few months, the combination of her arthritis and Cushings was making her life more difficult. Between creaky joints and loss of muscle tone, she could no longer get up by herself, when she laid down. She solved this problem by not laying down for as long as possible (weeks at a time), then waiting patiently for us to come help her up. Of course, since her getting up muscles weren't getting any exercise, she became increasingly less able to get up, and there was noticable atrophy of the muscles in her hind legs. The last couple of times, she couldn't roll from her side onto her chest without help. Her appetite got increasingly finicky last week, then yesterday, she lost interest in food---would merely pick at her Equine Senior. And, much of the day, she stood with her rump in a corner of the corral, letting the fence hold her up. I wasn't surprised to find her down when we went out to feed this morning, and regretfully made that final call to the vet. Nansy was my first horse. She converted my husband into a horse-lover, and taught him to ride. She got us both thoroughly hooked on Fjords, leading to the purchase of our other two geldings. I retired her in 1990 (due to her ringbone), but she remained my good old girl---the one that I would go out to brush when my life needed a dose of the serenity that she seemed to exude. I'm gonna miss her Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/18/01 11:34:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nansy was my first horse. She converted my husband into a horse-lover, and taught him to ride. She got us both thoroughly hooked on Fjords, leading to the purchase of our other two geldings. I retired her in 1990 (due to her ringbone), but she remained my good old girl---the one that I would go out to brush when my life needed a dose of the serenity that she seemed to exude. I'm gonna miss her You have my condolences for the loss of what must have been a great mare. Pamela
Re: In Memory....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You have my deepest sympathy. Suzan
In Memory....
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to say that I no longer have the oldest NFHR Fjord (born May 6, 1969). We put Nansy down this morning. Over the last few months, the combination of her arthritis and Cushings was making her life more difficult. Between creaky joints and loss of muscle tone, she could no longer get up by herself, when she laid down. She solved this problem by not laying down for as long as possible (weeks at a time), then waiting patiently for us to come help her up. Of course, since her getting up muscles weren't getting any exercise, she became increasingly less able to get up, and there was noticable atrophy of the muscles in her hind legs. The last couple of times, she couldn't roll from her side onto her chest without help. Her appetite got increasingly finicky last week, then yesterday, she lost interest in food---would merely pick at her Equine Senior. And, much of the day, she stood with her rump in a corner of the corral, letting the fence hold her up. I wasn't surprised to find her down when we went out to feed this morning, and regretfully made that final call to the vet. Nansy was my first horse. She converted my husband into a horse-lover, and taught him to ride. She got us both thoroughly hooked on Fjords, leading to the purchase of our other two geldings. I retired her in 1990 (due to her ringbone), but she remained my good old girl---the one that I would go out to brush when my life needed a dose of the serenity that she seemed to exude. I'm gonna miss her Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: In memory of...
This message is from: Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alison wrote: Is there anyone who could send these touching comments to the family? I am sure they would be greatly appreciated. Brian Jacobsen is a member of Fjord-L. I don't know if he is home at this time, but he should be able to download the messages from the list. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Dorina ~ NFR Aagot .~:~. Fjords ~ Caper ~ Carly ~ Crickett .~:~. Labradors
Re: In memory of...
This message is from: Alison Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is there anyone who could send these touching comments to the family? I am sure they would be greatly appreciated.
Re: In memory of...
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't I remember hearing something about an incident involving these two horses, Grabb and Dragtind? Happened a number of years ago, I just heard it briefly when i got my Fjord, who is a grandson of Dragtind. Anyone know any details of what I am thinking of? Merek
Re: In memory of...
This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:36 PM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: Julia Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harold Jacobson, another icon of the Fjord breed in America, has passed away. Harold was well known as the man who imported Grabb, Dragtind, and many wonderful mares, a true lover of the breed. I'm sure many of you, like me, purchased your first Fjords from Harold. Over the last few years he was plagued with health problems, and his grandson Brian took over the herd when Harold and Dottie retired to Florida. But even in retirement, he never lost interest in the horses...how he loved to buy and sell! For those who would like to send a note to Dottie, the address is 606 Alliance Court, Deland, Fla 32720. God Bless you, Harold! Oh I am really sorry to hear this. I never did meet Harold face to face but I have spent many hours on the phone with him. For people that don't know it was Harold Jacobsen that started the NFHR. It has grown now to be the largest registry in North America. Thanks Harold for all you have done for our wonderful Fjords. You will certainly be missed in the Fjord world. Mike == Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In memory of...
This message is from: Julia Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harold Jacobson, another icon of the Fjord breed in America, has passed away. Harold was well known as the man who imported Grabb, Dragtind, and many wonderful mares, a true lover of the breed. I'm sure many of you, like me, purchased your first Fjords from Harold. Over the last few years he was plagued with health problems, and his grandson Brian took over the herd when Harold and Dottie retired to Florida. But even in retirement, he never lost interest in the horses...how he loved to buy and sell! For those who would like to send a note to Dottie, the address is 606 Alliance Court, Deland, Fla 32720. God Bless you, Harold!
