Re: Punishment
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sini, Thanks for this - really interesting! >According to these researchers and trainers most of the biting and >kicking happens between members who are almost equal in the hierarchy. >(For them it's often useful to quarrel as winning gives you an instant >reward - lets you eat first etc.) This is why hitting the horse often >seems to encourage the unwanted behaviour: in the horse language the >human is saying 'we're almost equal' which means that it can be a >profitable idea to go on opposing. The above certainly is in accordance with my experience. Now I have an understanding of why this happens. > >Many people find building the relationship consequently - for example by >teaching the horse to give way - a more durable solution to bad >behaviour than instant hitting. Another good simple idea is to conquer >the horse's pile of hay in the paddock every now and again by >approaching him in a demanding way (for instance by waving a lead rope >in the air to chase the horse away if needed) as this is one of the >daily things a real leader does to establish its position. Also confirms my experience. Maybe also an explanation for my theory that grass diving is one of the worst things you can let a horse get away with. (I also think grass diving appears most often when a horse is anxious - maybe because anxiety creates the need to fill the stomach - or because it is a symptom of a horse that feels leaderless.) > >In any case somebody else might have established his position by taking >a few minutes to introduce himself and by for instance asking the horse >to give way before starting to work on her. He might have thought that a >horse that behaves herself because she wants to and not because she gets >punished if she doesn't is a happier and safer horse to work with. Also coincides with my experience. My farrier can get rushed, but when he takes the time, his usual procedure is to take the lead rope, hold it in his hand by one finger (with a nice dip of slack rope) and draw the horse forward. If that doesn't work, he holds the rope in his palm, takes the slack out and draws the horse forward. If that doesn't work, he wraps the rope once around his palm, puts on pressure and holds until the horse gives slightly - at which point he releases. The exercise continues until he can move the horse forward *one step at a time* - controlling each foot individually by careful use of the rope. Then he makes them back and stand. And it does work. Doesn't take long either. >I hope no-one thinks I'm criticizing what they do with their horses. >Quite the contrary I read about everybody's experiences with great >respect and interest. A relationship with a horse is always a collection >of so many factors and we're all individuals as well as our horses are - >what suits one doesn't suit the other. Not at all. It seems to me that a lot of things work with horses. Some better than others. Some better with particular horses. And some techniques work better for some people (usually those techniques that depend *a lot* on the learned ability to control one's body). And some techniques work for almost everyone - (usually those that are not so dependent upon precise body language in the trainer). Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clicker List Web Site : http://clickryder.cjb.net
Re: Punishment
This message is from: sini seppala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Regarding the leader of a herd and how she disciplines the others: some research done lately by studying herds shows that actually the real leader of the herd does not use force much at all. As she's gained the respect and trust in other ways (by being reliable, stable and calm and making good decisions) she doesn't usually have to do more than make a gesture (for instance pin ears) to help the others to remember who's who. (There are often members in the herd who do boss around and kick and bite. However, usually these ones are not real leaders - the others don't trust their decisions, follow them nor seek their company to feel safe. Quite the contrary these bosses are often disliked by the others.) According to these researchers and trainers most of the biting and kicking happens between members who are almost equal in the hierarchy. (For them it's often useful to quarrel as winning gives you an instant reward - lets you eat first etc.) This is why hitting the horse often seems to encourage the unwanted behaviour: in the horse language the human is saying 'we're almost equal' which means that it can be a profitable idea to go on opposing. Many people find building the relationship consequently - for example by teaching the horse to give way - a more durable solution to bad behaviour than instant hitting. Another good simple idea is to conquer the horse's pile of hay in the paddock every now and again by approaching him in a demanding way (for instance by waving a lead rope in the air to chase the horse away if needed) as this is one of the daily things a real leader does to establish its position. So that farrier episode ended well. However, there are horses who might have thought what he did was mighty unfair of a person who they don't even know. Which might have led into further problems. In any case somebody else might have established his position by taking a few minutes to introduce himself and by for instance asking the horse to give way before starting to work on her. He might have thought that a horse that behaves herself because she wants to and not because she gets punished if she doesn't is a happier and safer horse to work with. I hope no-one thinks I'm criticizing what they do with their horses. Quite the contrary I read about everybody's experiences with great respect and interest. A relationship with a horse is always a collection of so many factors and we're all individuals as well as our horses are - what suits one doesn't suit the other. What do you think? Greetings from misty, snowy Juhola. Sini. home page at http://www.saunalahti.fi/~partoy/Juhola6.html
Re: Punishment
This message is from: "Bushnell's" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:46 PM 02/06/2000 -0800, you wrote: >This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Am I getting the idea that we should not "hit" our horses when they are out >of order??? Put me in mind of a time when we were trying to load up my Arab at a well attended horse event; she usually loaded well but this particular day she refused and we were attempting to gracefully coax, cajole, (beg), and were about to go for the butt roap when an old-timer cowboy sauntered past, packing a whip, and he nonchalantly popped her a good one without breaking stride! She shot in like a hockey puck. We wouldn't have done that but were grateful that he did, and I confess we've had to use his trick once since. Of course with Fjords that's not necessary =) Ruthie, NW MT
Punishment
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Am I getting the idea that we should not "hit" our horses when they are out of order??? Ever watch horses being disciplined by the herd? That is one way they quickly learn who is boss. My large horse, when he was a yearling, used to pester the day lights out of his baby sitter, my old Arab. It could go on for hours it seemed and finally the old boy would take a big bite to Charlie's shoulder and the game would stop. For awhile. Charlie is a tester. I get the same reaction re the lipping and then the nip, the "can I get away with it this time" look. My farrier once said Charlie should have been disciplined with a two by four. Like the "short one" my voice carries better than the whipping some instances.. I saw a horse come flying out of a trailer with a hay net stuck to his hoof. The owner was attached to the lead. I let out a mighty "whoa" and that horse stopped as did horses warming up for the next class. But there are times when a horse needs the crop or a jab to get his attention, i.e. the farrier. Softness works for soft horses but not for testers or the mighty stallion. And I would not hide where it was coming from. Alpha mares/dominant stallions do not hide behind bushes and trip the offender as he goes by. They are kicking and biting the offender to let him/her know who is boss. This is not meanness if it is quick and assertive. Meanness is loosing ones control and beating etc. The latter doesn't teach it terrifies or breaks the will. A horse is just as capable of learning as we are and sometimes we all need a good kick to get us back on the path. Again my horses are not afraid of me, do not flinch, well Gunnar still does from previous treatment, and are well mannered "most of the time" Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
