Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Dave Walter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Dave Walter" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I have a very serious question I would like to throw > out to the list. PLEASE > think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be > critical. I have in my > barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent > to me to work with as since > May he has "not been himself". He started bolting > and spooking at things he > has never cared about before. After reading your post and thinking about it, it occurs to me that this horse reminds me very much of a QH mare my cousin acquired when I was a teenager. The mare had been very well trained, had impeccable manners, etc., etc. My cousin's parents bought the mare after everyone had thoroughly tried her out, and had her shipped home. When she arrived home she seemed a little groggy and disoriented, which we expected after a long trip. After a few days of rest we began using her. She was just fine for a couple of days but seemed a little off balance at time. Then the horror stories started - unexplained bucking sessions, uncontrollable bolting, etc., etc. The mare was going positively nuts over little things - or sometimes apparently nothing. The only thing the vet could figure out, after many sessions with her, was that she had sustained a head injury somehow during shipping. The mare never recovered, unfortunately, and was put down for her own safety and the safety of her owner. Could something like this have happened to this Fjord gelding you are working with? Did his owner haul him somewhere a while before he became "not himself"? Does she keep him in a stable or pasture situation where he may have bumped his head or been kicked by another horse without anyone really noticing? I am also told that there are some toxins that can be injested(through weeds in hay or sprays that drift onto hay) which can affect the brain of animals and cause them to be totally unable to "sort" what is threatening and what is not. Don't know about this one, but I suppose it's possible,, but not very easy to trace. It is a very hard decision to put a horse down, but if the animal cannot be made "non dangerous" to those around him - and possibly to himself - then perhaps that is the best course for everyone. We had to make that decision with a foal that had contracted meningitis and had seizures. There was no way to know when she would have a seizure, whether she would have them continuing on into adulthood or not, and they were very violent. We put her down rather than have her be a menace to herself and others all her life. It seemed the kindest thing to do. Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: "C. Ennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have seen spooky horses calm a bit (when using noisy clippers-etc) by putting cotton balls, or pom-poms in their ears, they are soft and make no sound when putting into the ears, never tried it myself, but have seen it work wonders, worth a try, and good luck. (be safe!) - Original Message - From: Dave Walter Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 9:58 PM To: fjord horse Subject: Serious Question for the list This message is from: "Dave Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to me to work with as since May he has "not been himself". He started bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. His owner thought it was mostly white things and things that made noise. Like a nylon jacket, crackling or rustling noise and things that floated. She knew that he was not the same horse he was before May. She can think of NOTHING that had happened to him to change him so. On one occasion a friend on her fjord took her jacket off and that set this gelding into a full bolt, he was just standing next to the other fjord. The owner was dumped, luckily not serious hurt. But they were in an indoor arena, he took her out the gate, down the aisle of the barn and out the front door. We are not just talking a little spook here. The owner had 2 or 3 very serious bolting incidents with him, that lost her trust in him and hence I got him. When she brought him to my farm, the first ride was quite a memory maker. We tacked him up in the barn, perfect gentleman. Brought him outside and I mounted him. I just got into the saddle and got situated when he threw his head down and started bucking like a bronc. He got the reins out of my hands since I was just into the saddle and not expecting this,needless to say I ended up in the dirt, actually blacktop! His owner said and I believe her, He has NEVER bucked a day in his life, neither with someone on him or on the lunge line. Again NOT HIMSELF. In regards to bolting, I myself have had him bolt several several times with me. I have been more success in getting him spun around before he can get too far. He bolts for little things,like when I rubbed my helmet on my head. I had an itchy head and just moved my helmet around on my head, it made a little Styrofoam noise, that was it, bang. The little noise was too much. Another time I moved my whip from one side to the other. He has been ridden with a whip for 5 years. We did get his eyes checked they were fine. I'm thinking, can you get a brain checked? Another thing to add, he is a big fellow, 15.1 and probably 1250lbs. He was riding very well before this happened, well trained. Never abused or mistreated, like I said very good ground manners and no mean bone in his body. Owner has owned him almost his whole life. Think since he was a yearling or 2 yr old. After working with him, I have assessed this is a major problem and a long haul commitment in which it might be fixable but nothing that will be fixed overnight, and there is no guarantee. His owner has lost her confidence with him and doesn't think she ever will get it back with him. She doesn't want anyone else to get hurt on him and doesn't know what to do with him. My question to the list is, "What does a person do with a horse that they think is dangerous?" She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions? You could either email me privately or discuss this on the list. She is open to suggestions and I would like to hear what people think. This is a heartbreaker for her, she is very attached to him and this is very heavy on my heart as well. Patti Jo Walter Francis Creek Fjords Two Rivers WI
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 9/1/2002 2:32:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It turned out the horse was going blind and he > was frightened by familiar things that seemed to have become unfamiliar. > Also, unfortunately they let him go blind over a period of several years > and > he would spin in circles. It was sad to see him. This blindness is > hereditary in some breeds of horses and I do not know if they have a cure > as > yet. Jean > Still, there are those blind horses who function quite well. John Lyon's appaloosa, for one. A friend of mine had a blind mare, and with the right attitude and precautions, she had many good years with this mare. Pamela http://hometown.aol.com/northhorse/index.html";>Northern Holiday Horses
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I remember a most reliable gelding who suddenly began acting panicky, unfortunately when I was riding him. The owner always felt I had done something to his horse until a year of this behavior when they noted a discoloration in his eyes. It turned out the horse was going blind and he was frightened by familiar things that seemed to have become unfamiliar. Also, unfortunately they let him go blind over a period of several years and he would spin in circles. It was sad to see him. This blindness is hereditary in some breeds of horses and I do not know if they have a cure as yet. Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Patti why is this horse dangerous? What caused it? A mare can be very dangerous who has a tumerous ovary and when it is removed be gentle. Etc. Somewhat like the club footed fjord on this list, is it something worth trying to correct? Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE > think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. What does a person do with a horse that they think > is dangerous?" She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even > telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get > hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them > down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions? > Patti Jo Walter >>> This is a very sad story Patti Jo, I certainly do feel bad for you and the owner of this poor disturbed fellow. I see you're receiving some excellent letters of advice from other listers and I hope their collective information and empathizing helps you. I think the pain idea is well worth checking out thoroughly. I would definitely advise NOT riding him until this has been sorted out as you could be seriously injured, even the very best of skilled riders-- which you may be, would be running a great risk on a beserk horse. I once saw a different breed horse that had a phobia which triggered "frenzies" and it was actually frightening to see his homicidal behavior. In reading your letter, my best suggestion is for this owner not to even think about passing the horse on, through a sale, giving it away, or finding an unsuspecting trainer... (even though you warn them about the horse, they might simply perceive him as a challenge and think they can do better than you-- many proud trainers are like that =))) After this horse has been given every kind of physical check imagineable, and maybe even the expense of a chiropractor and visionary if this lady is so inclined and can afford them... and if there is no improvement still, she should have the sole responsibility of facing a hard decision about the future of this dangerous animal.. and must not pass on her duty, which might put lives at risk. People go amuck, dogs go amuck, horses might possibly go amuck also but somehow we idyllicly choose not to believe it is possible, because we fiercely love horses. I'll be hoping and praying that a solution is found for this dear fellow and that he can be restored to normality. "Restored," assuming that he was normal before this extreme behavior began because you don't elaborate on his background and if he was used much or not. Ruthie, nw mt
RE: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: "Dagrun Aarsten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Patti Jo, what a sad situation for the owner. I might be repeating some of the other responses here, but my suggestions would be: - Don't ride him, it's not worth the risk (even though you sound like an extremely brave and capable rider). And he is clearly not enjoying it either. See if the problem is still there when just working him on the ground. If possible, have him loose in a safe place (well fenced arena) and do some subtle tests with white plastic and funny noises. Even in his stall might work, just to see his reaction to similar things when not ridden. - I definitely second the idea of a chiropractor. I recently bought a TB mare who disliked people and when ridden just pinned her ears, shook her head and refused to move. Her breakthrough came with a chiropractic adjustment in addition to a better fitting saddle and proper hoof care. Some of her old behavior is still there as a habit but she's turning into a beautiful riding horse. - Then again, to answer to your real question: I would suggest giving him to someone with experience with problem horses and enough time and patience to get to the bottom of the problem, even if it takes years. Of course Brigid comes to mind... She has taken on two problem horses already, one that "only" bolted occasionally (BIG strong guy) and one that was probably far worse than the gelding you describe, he had seriously injured several people. She spent something like two years with him from the ground until she started riding him. Now he is ridden regularly and he is a different horse (and happy as a clam). He is still extremely fast and sensitive, rides like a sports car. - However, since this came around so sudden, and if he's only like this when being ridden then it seems very likely that there is strong pain involved and that he might "change back" to his usual self when the source of pain is eliminated. However, habits are hard to break so the more he is ridden the more likely he is to develop a real dangerous habit. - He is probably not a case for a professional trainer (you might be one, too?) because they need to make a living and NOT get injured/killed doing so, I certainly understand that they can't take on cases where progress comes in years rather than months and it involves danger. Wishing you good luck with him and please be careful! Dagrun, San Jose, Ca My > question to the list is, "What does a person do with a horse that > they think > is dangerous?" She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even > telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get > hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them > down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions?
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Patti Jo Walter/Dave Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to > me to work with as since May he has "not been himself". He started > bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. [...] > Like a nylon jacket, crackling or rustling noise > and things that floated. [...] > She can think of NOTHING that had happened to him to change him so. > [...] I just got into the saddle and got situated when he threw his > head down and started bucking like a bronc. [...] > he is a big fellow, 15.1 and probably 1250lbs. [...] > very good ground manners and no mean bone in his body. Every incident that you related occurred while under saddle. Does the horse also spook when in hand, with only a halter on? How about when he's led with only a bridle? If he's OK when unsaddled, I would suspect a back problem. The horse would undoubtedly benefit from an examination by a chiropractor, or at least a massage therapist. He could very well have gotten cast, or slipped on pasture, or done any number of simple things that strained something, or tweaked alignment of a vertebrae. The saddle could well be aggrivating the problem, and when the rider moves in the saddle, it may cause a twinge somewhere. If he's OK in a halter, but not in a bridle, then have an equine dental expert (not just any old vet) check his mouth. Bit contact on a sore tooth can turn a little shy into a big wreck! This sounds to me like a physical problem, not a training issue, so the first step is to find out what it is, and whether it is fixable. If you haven't already, quiz the owner about ANY new tack she might have bought or started using since May. That might point to where his ache is. For that matter, he's a big boy. It may simply be that he has filled out to the point that his saddle no longer fits. One of our Fjords (the one built like an oil drum) is rather "reactive", and it was a lot worse when we were (unknowingly) riding him with a saddle that pinched his shoulders, just behind the withers. Interestingly, I later saw an acupressure chart that labelled that spot as the "panic point"---supposedly, pressure there pushes the critter closer to "threshold" on losing it, mentally. However, once you find and fix the problem, you'll still have some work ahead of you. He's going to remember that certain things used to hurt, and anticipate them, so he'll have to be started over, to regain his confidence. Good luck! Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Alison Bakken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Patti, I had a part Arabian mare that started the same type of behaviour almost over night. She was a little more controllable than this fellow. I rode her for about five years before she died from a bacterial infection. That infection originally had entered her system through a small cut and ate out the heart value. When the mare realized that she was not at her best she started shying. What helped with this mare was moving to the bush. With your gelding I can see a couple of possibilities. Finding a home for him where he is a pasture ornament or put him down. Alison Bakken Sunder, Alberta
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Patti Jo, Without seeing this boy, but going from your description, I would say to not give up on him. Most "problems" we see in horses are either related to injury/illness or are man-made, inadvertently or not. Has he been thoroughly checked over by a qualified vet? Teeth, ears, legs, joints, and spine? His flight mechanism could be on "high" due to pain. However, it personally sounds like he recently had a very traumatic experience due to something with noise and the color white which has affected him so badly, his flight response turns on immediately at any reminder. Another hint of this being a strong possibility is the fact of him bolting when you lifted your hand to scratch your head. I would say he was reacting not only to the noise, but the fact of the noise and your raised hand combined. He is trying to get away from a repeat of whatever this bad experience entailed. While I realize the owner is adamant such a thing has not happened, unless the owner has been with him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it is possible she did not observe the event. Anyone else ever on that farm? Kids playing pranks? An unknown visitor? There are countless ways for such a thing to happen, unfortunately. My suggestion would be to no longer ride or drive him, but to go back to the very basics. Regain his trust, then work with objects that are known to be frightening to him. This WILL be a long and drawn out process, but the result will be well worth it. We have worked with a few horses that had similar awful experiences at the hands of their previous owners and all have successful, happy, and productive lives now. Good luck and keep all of us posted! Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords & Shetlands White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dave- Sorry to hear of this troubling situation. I hope the owner can find a solution. I specialize in nutty horses so too bad I'm not in your area ;-) I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I hope no one will be judgmental. Now, my question may seem a little strange but it's important. What happened in the owner's life around the time of the gelding's "change"? Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";> Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
