Re: Stallion Behavior
This message is from: SUSAN GIARGIARI <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello All.This is not said in any kind of anger!! :-) I am replying to Catherine about the stallion that she gelded because he 'raped' the mares. In all fairness, he was a Hilmar son. This is his 'story'. As a 4 month old he was shown in hand in VT and a week later in MT. The two senior evaluators judging the Annual fjord shows there placed him firstin VT against a mixed class with 18 + weanlings. In MT against 4 or 5 other colts. We had him until he was a year old, he was just started ground driving when we delivered him and well handled. He also lived in a herd situation his whole first year. We showed him at Blue Earth and we showed him at NY as a yearling. We handle all of our youngsters from day one. Being a colt that was going to be a kept a colt, for now...we made sure he respected us and knew what was expected of him. Once he left us, we have no control. I was called and told how he would race up and down the fence like a crazy man...mares in! the other fieldhe should have been with someone for company. I don't beleive he was bred 'in hand' for the first experienceit was with an older mareany stallion should be bred in hand by humans the first few times.then if safe with the mares he can maybe 'pasture breed'. This should be done with any stallion. I am curious about others thoughts on this. The next call I got was that he had bitten the trainer he was withhe was a 2 1/2 year old colt at that time and he was already driving, trail riding, and pulling a stone boat.he should not have been doing all of that as a two year old..again..fried brain syndromeI advised her to bring him home and let him be in the pasture and be a colt!! a horse! And this was done. I do know that he had bred a few mares after thiswould be curious to know how the offspring of them are ..behavior wiseand I do know that once this colt was gelded...he became one of Catherine's hubby's favorite riding horse! This is a colt that had the presence...we knew it.and taking him to shows and having different judges agree with our thoughts about him...lead us to keep him intact and sell him as a breeding prospect. If we had kept him...we would have had him evaluated. He was evaluated out in the West and got a Red, I believe. I really haven't c! hecked in the book in a long time so I don't remember! I know it wasn't a blue.. We have not had a colt born since with that same presenceand when you see ityou will know..the same dam bred to hilmar had three other colts by hilmar and not one of them had the presence of this first colt. As a breeder, I believe that every colt should be gelded.unless it is exceptional..in conformation, tempermant, movement and have that stallion 'presence'. That presence doesn't mean that he is 'out of control'. Another story is that Hilmar throws a 'crooked fetlock' on one front foot of 'his offspring'. We have had enough now and seen them thru the years..I would welcome any feed back on this from any of his offspring owners. This colt did not leave our place with a crooked fetlockthat would have been present at birth. Hilmar does have a fetlock in front that turns very slightly. We have not seen it in any of his offspring yet. It was noticed and is noted in his evaluation. I think that anyone wanting to breed a mare.that has their stock evaluated should compare the mare and stallions evaluationsI have no problem giving a copy to anyone who wants to breed to him. And I would expect the same from a stallion that I might breed to or be interested in breeding to. The evals are a tool for everyone to learn and learn and learn.and make the best possible decision when breeding two horses. I took a weanling colt, out of Hilmar and Selma(a Grabbson daughter) when he was 2 months old to our farm here. He came with his mom, to rebred her, and he was very obnoxiousSelma let him climb all over him and never disciplined him,, he was halter broke and led out to the pasture or paddock at his home.with mom...and boy was he a handful. I put him in the pasture with Hilmar, Stella/her suckling colt, Dena/ her suckling filly, and Rosita and her suckling filly. We patted him and said hi to him when we went out to the pasture to interact with all..after three weeks ..I put a halter on him and we had leading lessons.he did exactly as I asked with only a little coaxinghe learned his lessons of behavior very well from the herd, the other mares, the other offspring and Hilmar. He became the most polite youngster! Loved to load, cross tie, be groomed and went on to a wonderful home as a 10 month old in CT! I love watching horses interact and learning about them in a herd situation thru the
Re: Stallion behavior/Tie stalls
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:20 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >As far as stallion behavior and breeding - - Toby has wonderful manners, >never bites or kicks and is a joy to be around, however, one spring he >got in his mind that 1) he was stronger than me and 2) he could just set >his head and neck and jerk away from me and breed the mare as I led him >to her. Me being me, this is not something I will tolerate. >Unfortunately for Rich, who was standing behind me, when I took the whip >and made Toby get off the mare, I caught Rich on the backlash. To make >a long story short, Toby started behaving himself and Rich stays out of >my way. (I will hide this digest from him, it's wasn't one of the >highlights of a marriage)Ha ha. So you use this method to train both stallions and husbands then eh? And both at the same time is pretty impressive if I do say so myself. Very efficient of you Nancy! ;-)
Re: Re: Stallion Behavior
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carol, I didn't think that we were talking about breeding behavior. I thought we were addressing public manners. I don't think anyone would fault a stallion for unbridled enthusiasm in the breeding shed so long as it was not threatening to his handlers although I do think you can train even the most anxious individual to have manners there too. I believe the issue was the stallions temperment outside a breeding situation such as having to be led into a judging situation by two handlers. Again possibly a training issue. I don't disagree with you at all about judging a stallion based on his temperment alone. I think I made that clear, however if even the most inexperienced of us can insist on semi-decent behavior in hand ,in public then it should be what we expect. As for Marnix, he has a tremendous amount of personality and requires lots of time and effort, but he is a wonderful family horse who responds to all the Creigh's,big and little, and gets plenty of hugs and kisses as a result. Last year at Woodstock we were waiting for some class in the jump field and he heard my family's collective voices approaching from the side he immediately looked in their direction with obvious expectation of some love and affection. I was moved as were those watching. He was justly rewarded with plenty of attention. Is he perfect?... far from it. Do we insist that he behave when out and about, damn straight. If he didn't then he wouldn't be my stallion. Vivian
Re: Stallion Behavior
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Julie's post about acceptable and unacceptable behavior of stallions, was RIGHT ON THE MONEY! She talked about a stallion, eager and virile, that pulled her across the yard, but would never strike or charge her. The problem, as I see it, is that some people expect Fjord stallions to be so low key that they'll walk quietly up to the mare, quietly mount her, and do the job. Hey! If there really are such stallions out there, and they have as much QUALITY as QUIET, then that's the best of all worlds. However, it seems unrealistic to me. I've been handling Gjest during breeding for coming on twelve years, and it hasn't gotten any less nerve-wracking. He never strikes. He never charges. He never bites me, but I tell you, I have to be sure my shoelaces are tied when we come out of that gate, and Gjest sees the mare hobbled and waiting . . . I don't have much choice other than to go with the flow, so to speak. I've had horse-wise friends (Warmblood & TB people) watch our breeding, and they're amazed that it's over so quickly, that this Fjord stallion is so efficient. They tell me of Warmblood & TB stallions that take ages to get the job done. --- They were impressed! I have to think that a stallion that takes a long time to do the job has to have less libido than a stallion like Gjest. And sure, the one who takes forever to get himself worked up is going to be much easier to handle than a more eager stallion. And I suppose it might be tempting to own a stallion with lower testosterone levels . . . but is it good for the breed, or just good for the breeder? Now I know Vivian is going to tell us that Marnyx has plenty of libido and is also quiet, and if that's so, then she's very lucky. And, other people are going to tell me that it's all a matter of training, and they may be right. . . . I'm just wondering. Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
RE: Stallion behavior or lack thereof.
This message is from: "Werner, Kristine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Marge - I have experienced exactly the same thing - My horse, Kai, always seemed to prefer my husband over me. We only have the one - and he is actually "mine" and you can imagine how frustrating and disappointing it was to see that Kai seemed to feel safer with Dietmar than with his loving owner/handler/rider/financier! Thank goodness that has changed. Because I noticed that something between me and Kai was "awry", I took a course recently along the lines of Pat Parelli and was pleasantly surprised by the effect the exercises suggested had on Kai - AND on me AND on our partnership. And the interesting and good thing about it is that it did not take long to achieve said positive results. Parelli (among others, of course) suggests a number of ways in which we can attain and maintain "dominance" over our horses. I tried out several of the more basic approaches - including asking him to go backwards and letting HIM move around me instead of vice versa - and noticed radical changes in Kai's behavior - AND in my attitude towards him. When I mobilize him - he realizes that 1) I have the "power" to get him moving and that 2) he does what I want and registers that, too. I realized that when I demand respect and EXPECT that I am going to get it - Kai actually submits. Perhaps not without a bit of testing - "does she REALLY mean it ?" sort of stuff - but when I insist, he lets go and seems to be relieved to FEEL that he is SAFE with me. This is what a horse wants. This is what I and what we all want. (Of course, there is the spoiled horse who bites everyone or runs them down - and many other exceptions. But I think the above can be applied to most. But a horse is a horse and with "proper" handling - which must be defined - will also "want" to re-gain his respect in humankind). > -Original Message- > From: Marge Littleboy [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Freitag, 21. August 1998 21:02 > To: 'Fjord Mailing List' > Subject: Stallion behavior or lack thereof. > > This message is from: Marge Littleboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > In getting caught up on the fjord list, I have been reading the notes > about this stallion. I would like to make a comment, along the lines > of > Kathy's note. > > With our two mares I have a much better relationship with Brith than I > do with Asta. Brith can read me like a book, and we get along great. > Asta on the other hand can and has tried to walk all over me, but > respects Bill completely. Where we board, Vic gets along with Asta > terrifically, not a problem in the world, and Brith becomes the > dominant > mare to him. Our animals all evaluate us, as we do them. We get in > the > pecking order and it may not always be where we feel we belong. It > sounds like the stallion needs to (re)learn who is the "Alpha" in that > particular relationship, not just under saddle, but on the ground as > well. > > Over the years I have seen many incidents where a horse will relate > better to a man than a woman and others that get along better with a > woman more than a man. I am sure many of you have had the same > experience. Just as we need to respect them, they need to respect us, > but at times you come up against a tough one, it is not worth getting > hurt or someone else getting hurt. I wish this gal well on her > endeavor > with this stallion, and hope she is able to open that line of > communication she needs with her boy. > > Marge Littleboy > >
RE: stallion behavior
This message is from: "Werner, Kristine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Julie - sorry to be redundant - I was gone Friday and just got back. I read one or two of the contributions and then snapped off one of my own before I went any further. Funny how similar we wrote! > -Original Message- > From: Julia Will [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Freitag, 21. August 1998 03:47 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: stallion behavior > > This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth to the stallion discussion. I was > just > in Norway this spring at the stallion show, and overall the horses > were > EXTREMELY well mannered, even with 39 in the ring at once. One 3 year > old > reared a couple of times but that was the worst we saw in hand. Many > were > handled by young women. In the performance, one beautiful 5 year old > acted > up in the ring under saddle, refused to canter and to go to one end of > the > ring, and his license to breed was taken away. In the 6 week program > of > schooling for stallions, he had been a problem on more than one > occasion. > > We have two stallions, an 11 year old and a 3 year old. Both are very > "virile" and show beautiful presence, but both are completely safe to > be > around, to go into the pasture with, to feed, groom, breed mares with. > Yes, I use a stallion chain when going from pasture to barn, and I > NEVER > forget that it is a stallion on the end of the lead. And going down > the > aisle with horses on both sides, I want to have a firm grip on that > lead. > But neither horse would EVER offer to attack me, strike at me, kick, > bite, > etc. Several years ago we were raising a very promising young > stallion > prospect, a colt that had been handled since birth by experienced > horsepeople. By age 14 months, I was afraid to go into the paddock > with > him, as he would bite (not nip) at me. One day he left black and blue > marks on my upper arm and I called the vet. He is a wonderful > gelding, > owned by a 12 year old girl. We had a similar experience with a 3 > year old > that came to us as a stallion who had not been handled much. He > charged me > in the pasture with teeth baredanother gelding that is doing > wonderfully. > > So I guess that pretty well spells out my opinion. Julie @ Old > Hickory Farm
