Re: Grey dun/White dun/Libby Info. (long)
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:07 AM 8/11/2005, you wrote: This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, First and foremost, thanks for adding the Libby show info. to the website. Though I have not been active in PNFPG leadership, I am always looking for ways to promote fjords and our organizations. I am always amazed with the speed with which you are able to make changes and respond to inquiries. Your the best! Also, thanks for the quick reply and clarification on the registerability of "kvit" horses in the NFHR. My confusion came from the "Fjords of Different Colors" page in the Gallery on the NFHR Website (http://www.nfhr.com/Horses%20of%20Different%20Colors.html) where it states that "kvit" is..."Not an approved fjord color". If this is a color approved for registration by the NFHR then we might consider omitting that suggestion from the website to prevent further confusion. Yes I guess you are right. That is confusing. In Norway that is true I do believe so it isn't really an "Approved color". But since there isn't any NFHR rule against certain colors I don't really have a choice in registering them. By the way there has only been one born in the US that I am aware of so this isn't a real big problem either. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Grey dun/White dun/Libby Info. (long)
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, First and foremost, thanks for adding the Libby show info. to the website. Though I have not been active in PNFPG leadership, I am always looking for ways to promote fjords and our organizations. I am always amazed with the speed with which you are able to make changes and respond to inquiries. Your the best! Also, thanks for the quick reply and clarification on the registerability of "kvit" horses in the NFHR. My confusion came from the "Fjords of Different Colors" page in the Gallery on the NFHR Website (http://www.nfhr.com/Horses%20of%20Different%20Colors.html) where it states that "kvit" is..."Not an approved fjord color". If this is a color approved for registration by the NFHR then we might consider omitting that suggestion from the website to prevent further confusion. As for Margaret Bogie's comments on the same subject... 1. A kvit is NOT an albino as we understand it in English. A kvit is a "creme colored horse with blue eyes, perhaps with minimal striping left over from the dun gene." They are not what we think of as albino -- pink skinned, red-eyed animals devoid of pigment. In fact, kvits have dark skin and dark hooves, not pink skin and light hooves. 2. Sponenberg states that the kvit "is an integral and historic part of the Fjord horse breed and should be considered as such." Though the above assertions are correct in pure scientific terms, it should be noted that "albino" and "pseudoalbino" have been historically common ways of referencing "kvit" horses in Norwegian culture. It should also be noted that "kvit" horses have issues of light sensitivity and are not allowed to earn their premies nor can they be chosen (kåre) as breeding stallions in Norway. This information, compiled by Tor Nestaas (one of Norway's most respected experts on fjordhorses), has been published on the Norges Fjordhestlag website. Though you will need to translate it from Norwegian, it can be found at http://www.fjordhest.no/fargekart.asp . This is also the document from which the color chart on the NFHR website is taken though the text at the bottom of the page from which the above information came was omitted. The translated chart can be found at http://www.nfhr.com/Colors.htm . An interesting article on color by Tor Nestaas can also be found on the same page in which he states... "Among the earliest registered Fjordhorses in the Norwegian Stud Book, the uls dun was the dominant variety of color. This color was also called "borket". Uls dun came in disrepute because at the time, no one knew how the different colors were inherited. So uls dun was bred to uls dun, and that resulted some times in white and walleyed foals." As for Sponenberg's article, he too is right that the kvit "is an integral and historic part of the Fjord horse breed and should be considered as such." Likewise there are many integral and historic parts of human history that should not be repeated. I'm sure we can all think of a few examples. In the past breeders have bred combinations that could and have resulted in "kvit" offspring. The Modellen X Lin pairing that produced Phil Odden's mare Gwendellin to which Margaret referred also produced a "kvit" horse, FG Luna. You might find it interesting to note that she is listed as "Albino" on the NFHR's Pony Web pedigree pages. Naturally, this pairing occurred at a time when not as much information was available on the genetics of color in the fjordhorse. Today in 2005 we should know better. As responsible breeders it behooves all of us to do our homework to help ensure that the horses that we produce do not have to spend their life with constant discomfort due to our own short sightedness. Margaret also wrote... Meanwhile, as an NFHR member, I am glad we aren't a color registry. I am glad we can embrace the genetic diversity of ALL types of Fjords. I too am glad that we can embrace genetic diversity of all types (colors) of fjords. It is for this reason that of the 14 fjords on our farm, 6 are grey and three of the brown duns including two of our stallions carry the grey recessive gene. 5, including two of our stallions, also may carry the red recessive gene, though only time and breeding may tell. The NFHR has always been a great tool for education about the many fascinating aspects of Fjord horses. When used in combination with the resources and information from other national organizations, fjord breeders, owners, and enthusiasts alike will only stand to enhance their experience with these marvelous simple, yet complex horses. Cheers! Dan Watanabe Olivia Farm, Inc. www.oliviafarm.com (360) 631-3562 P.S. (Shameless advertising to follow) Speaking of color, we still have a fantastic grey yearling colt for sale... Kvikksølv (MVF Erlend x MVF Kariella) a full brother to the outstanding grey stallion RT Gandalf owned
Re: Grey Dun/White Dun
This message is from: "Steve Sessoms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I want to thank Joe Glick and Dan Watanabe for helping me decide that my filly is in fact a light grey dun Fjordie! (and thanks to anyone else who might have replied and I haven't gotten it in the digest yet =) What really threw me was the fact that her body color is in fact more the color of a very dark white dun or a very light brown dun than any grey dun I have ever seen. And when her black face markings disappeared after her late summer coat grew back, it really threw me off. Just a note about the recent flaming on the list . it makes me very sad to see this happen. I truly think that all parties really agree with everything each other said but was taken the wrong way. I have been on this list, gosh, I can't even remember how long. I think I joined it 6 months after it started. The folks who are arguing have been great contributors and are wonderful Fjord folks, and I can't believe you guys are falling apart like this. I hope you can all agree to disagree and shake hands . please. peace out, Meredith Sessoms
Re: Grey Dun/White Dun
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:19:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is due to this masking of the cremello and the possibility of producing a "kvit" offspring that one should be careful in their pedigree research when breeding grey to grey. Likewise, breeders should never breed white to white, white to yellow, or yellow to yellow since these combinations could result in an unregisterable "kvit" or albino if both parents pass on the cremello gene. I realize that Mike May has responded to the erroneous information in the above post, but I'd like to add my two cents. The NFHR is not a color registry. If two registered Fjords produce an offspring, that animal is registrable as a Fjord. Similarly there is no prohibition against breeding white dun to white dun or any combination of colors that *might* produce a "kvit". In fact, breeders do breed color combinations which might produce a kvit. I think the article found on the NFHR site by D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, PhD, makes two important points: 1. A kvit is NOT an albino as we understand it in English. A kvit is a "creme colored horse with blue eyes, perhaps with minimal striping left over from the dun gene." They are not what we think of as albino -- pink skinned, red-eyed animals devoid of pigment. In fact, kvits have dark skin and dark hooves, not pink skin and light hooves. 2. Sponenberg states that the kvit "is an integral and historic part of the Fjord horse breed and should be considered as such." It is my understanding from Curt Pierce that Phil Odden, who owns a mare whose parentage is white dun/white dun (as I do), is doing more research on color variation and may be publishing this information soon. I have heard anecdotally that Phil has made some interesting analysis of red duns and light hoof color. I'm looking forward to seeing his research published. Meanwhile, as an NFHR member, I am glad we aren't a color registry. I am glad we can embrace the genetic diversity of ALL types of Fjords. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 703-817-9576 Voice 540-729-4430 Cell http://ironwood-farm.com ***Foals for sale: 2005 white dun filly and red dun filly; 2004 gray dune colt and brown dun colt***
Re: Grey Dun/White Dun
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:54 AM 8/10/2005, you wrote: It is due to this masking of the cremello and the possibility of producing a "kvit" offspring that one should be careful in their pedigree research when breeding grey to grey. Likewise, breeders should never breed white to white, white to yellow, or yellow to yellow since these combinations could result in an unregisterable "kvit" or albino if both parents pass on the cremello gene. Actually there is nothing in the NFHR's rules that would prevent registering the Kvit. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Grey Dun/White Dun
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Meredith, I did a quick bit of research on your mare's pedigree both on the Pony Web and on the Norsk Hestesenter web site to see if it was possible to tell the color by tracing the lineage. If your mare is truly a white dun or "ulsblakk" as it is in Norwegian, then it could have only come from the Karival side since the cremello gene responsible for the lightening of the coat does not function as a recessive trait like those responsible for grey and red duns. As such, if a white dun does not produce another white dun in its lifetime, then there is no possibility of a white dun being produced later in the line as a result of that horse's genetic contribution. It has been said, however, that grey can mask white though, so it is possible that the cremello gene might have come from this side. It is due to this masking of the cremello and the possibility of producing a "kvit" offspring that one should be careful in their pedigree research when breeding grey to grey. Likewise, breeders should never breed white to white, white to yellow, or yellow to yellow since these combinations could result in an unregisterable "kvit" or albino if both parents pass on the cremello gene. My wife and I have previously researched the Karibu side and have found a long line of grey horses that ultimately came from brown dun stock, thus the cremello would not have come from this side. Frøya's pedigree is less known since her dam was not registered and thus, could be responsible for passing on the cremello gene. On the Aagot side, Leik clearly carries the grey recessive so it would not be unlikely to have a grey offspring. What this all means is that there is an outside chance that you could have a white dun on your hands, though it is most likely that you have a very light grey dun. The Norwegians have multiple designations for the various shades of grey including "grå", "lysgrå", and "musgrå" (grey, light grey, and mouse grey respectively). The Karibu line has certainly produced some horses that are a somewhat light and silvery in color. With a little sun bleaching as you suggested I can see how this would appear more creamy white. As someone interested in the genetics of color, I would love to know of a conclusive example of grey masking the cremello. Through days (literally) of pedigree research I have not been able to find such an example. In a couple of cases I have found horses that were registered "ulsblakk" that could have only really been "lysgrå", that is unless their ancestors were mis-registered. A truly conclusive example of grey masking the cremello would be two grey duns producing a "kvit" as this result would be unmistakable. If any readers know of such an example I would love to hear of it. Hopefully this is helpful even though I can not give you a 100% answer as to the color of Anjee. My wife and I would be happy to see pictures, though they can often be deceiving. Well, enough for now. Cheers! Dan Watanabe Olivia Farm, Inc. www.oliviafarm.com
