Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie wrote: . the Fjord Registry forbids it and will yank ALL registry paperwork from any breeder or person that does" "Yank" and "forbid" are rather vague terms, Ruthie, especially when discussing such an important NFHR rule such as this one. In the interests of being perfectly clear and accurate, here is the specific NFHR rule on outcrossing: (sorry, I don't recall your real name, I'm sure coyote must be an alias.. =))) "vague?" ..according to dictionary... "yank" means to pull or extract suddenly... "forbid" means to "command a person not to do something." ...I wasn't too far off? =)) but do appreciate you publishing the actual registry mandate ...it's also published quarterly in the Fjord Herald magazine. I'm thinking we can't have enough reminders on this topic, as there are continually folks new to Fjords. I hope I haven't confused you by my goof-up, over the term outcrossing, when I should have said crossbreeding instead... as I note you have used it too in your last sentence. There are those that use these two terms loosely, but it is more correct to say "crossbreeding" ...as in hybridize, which is taboo. thanks for your comments. Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie wrote: "...As for 'outcrossing,' you mentioned, the Fjord Registry forbids it and will yank ALL registry paperwork from any breeder or person that does" "Yank" and "forbid" are rather vague terms, Ruthie, especially when discussing such an important NFHR rule such as this one. In the interests of being perfectly clear and accurate, here is the specific NFHR rule on outcrossing: "...In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list" Source: http://www.nfhr.com/texts/rules.txt Article 1, Subsection C. Criteria for Registration
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Steve Sessoms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To simplify matters . Inbreeding is doubling up on the sire, dam or grands anywhere close up on the pedigree (both within the 2 block or the 4 block). Linebreeding is doubling up on any ancestor with a little bit more distance. An old successful close linebreeding formula in Labradors is to breed a bitch back to her dam's grandsire on the tail line (2 male block and lowest male 8 block the same). Having a grand be also a great grand is a more common linebreeding formula (4 block and 8 block). Having a name appear twice in the 8 block is also common linebreeding. Loose Linebreeding is doubling up on any ancestor a bit further back than that (say 8 block and 16 block). Out-crossing is breeding two animals of different breeds together. Meredith Sessoms Moulton Alabama USA ~ Dorina ~ ~ NFR Aagot ~ ~ little Anjee, who isn't so little any more and is at the trainer for the first time ~
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding vs outcrossing
This message is from: "Vanessa N Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I wasn't referring to outcrossing in terms of other breeds (i.e. TBs, QH, Arabs etc), I was talking about outcrossing within FJords, i.e. breeding to totally unrelated Fjords. Vanessa ---Original Message--- From: Ruth Bushnell Date: 09/27/05 10:22:50 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I find this whole topic sort of confusing. As a long time dog breeder > > find that horse and dog people seem to use the terms line breeding, > inbreeding... differently. In general I agree with your use of > terminology, > Vanessa > The two terms are confusing, 'linebreeding and inbreeding,' and commonly interchanged ...it is difficult to find a single substantial definition for either (technically or historically) ..probably because each term can sometimes fit within the boundary of the other ...within inbreeding there has been linebreeding, and within linebreeding there occurs inbreeding. Both terms are of a familial nature. One of many renditions that makes sense to me is that 'linebreeding' is a strategical mating choice, usually based on pedigrees, with the deliberate intention of concentrating the inheritance of some specific ancestor. While 'inbreeding' is the general natural result of a limited purebred gene pool. (intentional and unintentional) A more correct term for closely bred animals (siblings, parents) is termed just that, "closebreeding." As for 'outcrossing,' you mentioned, the Fjord Registry forbids it and will yank ALL registry paperwork from any breeder or person that does. This list has been instructed not to discuss the benefit or detriment of 'outcrossing.' Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> LOL! That is just what I said. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Okay I guess it is terminology because to me that is crossbreeding. I didn't think we were talking using other breeds. Thanks Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Outcrossing WITHIN the breed IS acceptible. LIke selecting a stallion from, say, Denmark, which has no immediate ancestors related to the mare you want to breed, etc. I think what Ruthie means is Outcorssing to another breed. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, clear today after days of rain. 32 degrees at 6:00am >Ruthie, > >How could they forbid outcrossing? That is breeding animals that are >mostly unrelated.
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, How could they forbid outcrossing? That is breeding animals that are mostly unrelated. Lisa Wiley YIKES... GLAD you caught that ! I got CROSSED up =))) meant to say crossbreeding ! Ruthie, us mt US Ruthie
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, How could they forbid outcrossing? That is breeding animals that are mostly unrelated. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I find this whole topic sort of confusing. As a long time dog breeder > find that horse and dog people seem to use the terms line breeding, inbreeding... differently. In general I agree with your use of terminology, > Vanessa The two terms are confusing, 'linebreeding and inbreeding,' and commonly interchanged ...it is difficult to find a single substantial definition for either (technically or historically) ..probably because each term can sometimes fit within the boundary of the other ...within inbreeding there has been linebreeding, and within linebreeding there occurs inbreeding. Both terms are of a familial nature. One of many renditions that makes sense to me is that 'linebreeding' is a strategical mating choice, usually based on pedigrees, with the deliberate intention of concentrating the inheritance of some specific ancestor. While 'inbreeding' is the general natural result of a limited purebred gene pool. (intentional and unintentional) A more correct term for closely bred animals (siblings, parents) is termed just that, "closebreeding." As for 'outcrossing,' you mentioned, the Fjord Registry forbids it and will yank ALL registry paperwork from any breeder or person that does. This list has been instructed not to discuss the benefit or detriment of 'outcrossing.' Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Vanessa N Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks, Janet. I find this whole topic sort of confusing. As a long time dog breeder (I've bred several breeds - mostly spaniels), and having bred Lipizzans briefly, I find that horse and dog people seem to use the terms line breeding, inbreeding and outcrossing differently. In general I agree with your use of terminology, although not necessarily with all of your conclusions (i.e. about fitness traits), at least in dogs. But perhaps that discussion is for another time. I don't necessarily discount inbreeding or linebreeding in dogs. The problem for me is that most people don't pay enough attention to all the potential traits - good or bad - that they are breeding in for, or out for - for that matter. I would expect the same to be true with some breeds of horse, like Quarter Horses (I'm thinking of Impressive Syndrome). In general I have found that people who breed primarily performance animals are more attuned to a wider range of sought after traits and are less likely to get stuck on one cluster of them. 'Performance' breeders are more able to consider temperament, function, purpose and overall health along with performance ability and looks, in a gene pool. What I find most confusing, however, are claims that someone has a line when outcrossing seems to be the predominant breeding philosophy. In my opinion just because one breeds doesn't mean they have a 'line'. So if the goal in breeding Fjords is to outcross, then how can one claim to have a line? One can still be an excellent breeder but I'm not sure that having a 'line' is possible in this case. I hope I'm being clear about this. I'm not feeling great this morning so I'm feeling a bit more muddled than usual. Vanessa ---Original Message--- From: Janet Date: 09/26/05 10:06:05 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, the subject of line breeding or inbreeding seems to always stir emotional responses from folks, in part because some like to keep it burried into some kind of mistique. the definition of a purebred, is a group of animals that are more related to each other than the general population (i.e. they share more ancestors in common). the definition of inbreeding is breeding two individuals together that share a common ancestor. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding, but is simply more discriminating about keeping the distance between relatives as far apart as possible. Genes come in pairs, what linebreeding/inbreeding does is allow identical genes to pair up because they came from the same common ancestor on both sides of the pedigree, we call this condition homozygous for a given gene or trait. Animals that are homozygous for that trait breed true for that trait. The only difference between linebreeding and inbreeding is how fast you get to the homozygous state. Close (inbreeding) produces an animal with lots of homozygous genes quickly, while linebreeding will take longer. There are drawbacks to producing animals with such a high degree of homozygosity. For one fitness traits (i.e. traits such as reproduction, that allow the animal to survive and carry on to produce the next generation) usually function better in animals with a high degree of heterozygous gene pairs (the opposite to homozygous, meaning greater gene diversity...outcrossing and cross breeding produce animals that are heterozygous). So in a highly inbred population, reproductive rate, and newborn survival often decrease. Also in some instances, many serious or lethal genes have increased in inbred populations such that a greater number of animals carry and express the gene. note: these genes were already there, all that linebreeding did was expose and increase the frequency of the bad genes. In the breeding of livestock guard dogs, we see less behavior problems in the dogs that are outcrossed to other livestock guarding breeds (i.e. maximize heterozygous genes). There are a list of behaviors that make these dogs function well, and it seems that the purebreds are overly endowed in one or two to (the point of being eccentric), and lacking in the others, while the outcrosses are much more balanced, expressing all of the desireable behaviors and few negative behaviors. Keep in mind most of the LGD breeds are close cousins, and were interbred just 100 years ago, but modern political boundries and ethnic pride have defined them as distinct breeds. Ray Coppinger has suggested that continued outcrossing may have been an important part to maintaining the working ability in these dogs (read his book 'Dogs'). Purebreeding these dogs, seems to be leading to an increase in the incidence of physical and behavioral problems. Which leads to the biggest argument ag
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Janet, Thank you that was the best explanation I have ever heard. It was also very easy to understand. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose Corresponding Secretary FASTeam http://www.myturnabout.com
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, the subject of line breeding or inbreeding seems to always stir emotional responses from folks, in part because some like to keep it burried into some kind of mistique. the definition of a purebred, is a group of animals that are more related to each other than the general population (i.e. they share more ancestors in common). the definition of inbreeding is breeding two individuals together that share a common ancestor. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding, but is simply more discriminating about keeping the distance between relatives as far apart as possible. Genes come in pairs, what linebreeding/inbreeding does is allow identical genes to pair up because they came from the same common ancestor on both sides of the pedigree, we call this condition homozygous for a given gene or trait. Animals that are homozygous for that trait breed true for that trait. The only difference between linebreeding and inbreeding is how fast you get to the homozygous state. Close (inbreeding) produces an animal with lots of homozygous genes quickly, while linebreeding will take longer. There are drawbacks to producing animals with such a high degree of homozygosity. For one fitness traits (i.e. traits such as reproduction, that allow the animal to survive and carry on to produce the next generation) usually function better in animals with a high degree of heterozygous gene pairs (the opposite to homozygous, meaning greater gene diversity...outcrossing and cross breeding produce animals that are heterozygous). So in a highly inbred population, reproductive rate, and newborn survival often decrease. Also in some instances, many serious or lethal genes have increased in inbred populations such that a greater number of animals carry and express the gene. note: these genes were already there, all that linebreeding did was expose and increase the frequency of the bad genes. In the breeding of livestock guard dogs, we see less behavior problems in the dogs that are outcrossed to other livestock guarding breeds (i.e. maximize heterozygous genes). There are a list of behaviors that make these dogs function well, and it seems that the purebreds are overly endowed in one or two to (the point of being eccentric), and lacking in the others, while the outcrosses are much more balanced, expressing all of the desireable behaviors and few negative behaviors. Keep in mind most of the LGD breeds are close cousins, and were interbred just 100 years ago, but modern political boundries and ethnic pride have defined them as distinct breeds. Ray Coppinger has suggested that continued outcrossing may have been an important part to maintaining the working ability in these dogs (read his book 'Dogs'). Purebreeding these dogs, seems to be leading to an increase in the incidence of physical and behavioral problems. Which leads to the biggest argument against inbreeding is that it narrows the diversity of the gene pool, and in small populations (such as the fjord horse) can lead to a genetic dead end where there is no longer enough diversity to work a way out of a negative genetic problem witout outcrossing to another breed. Some possitive aspects of linebreeding are: What makes most breeds breed true, is a high number of homozyous pairs of genes, usually achieved through linebreeding at some point in their history. The consistancy of the fjord horse color, shape, and size, could only have been achieved via linebreeding. Sometimes that linebreeding may have been purely by necessity, i.e. in small mountain populations, livestock are often highly inbred due to the inability to reach unrelated sires and dams. Often the tough environment culls out the unfit animals and you wind up with a hardy animal with a high degree of breed purity (which is to say there is inbreeding). In breeds of horses where there was one founding ancestor, _ALL_ breeding within the breed is linebreeding!!! According to the last Fjord Herald, there were a few sires that figured prominantly in the breed. Wanna bet they show up on both sides of the pedigree on many fjord horses? that is linebreeding. So while linebreeding or inbreeding does have a negative side, and the association is wise to discourage inbreeding (so as to prevent the breed from getting into a genetic trap), we have to keep in mind that some of our unique breeds, such as the Fjord horse may not have even existed without some linebreeding in their history. Janet
