Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoted/wrote: servo-ing the pliers/treat around Where'd you pick up a word like THAT to describe moving the object? Merek From what I used to do for a living---Computer Science, sub Artificial Intelligence, sub Computer Vision, including Robotics. Totally irrelevant to this list, other than that I had to pay for those Fjords, somehow Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/20/01 10:08:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a challenge for us. We run a horsemanship school and have students from 4 yrs up. We have a younger 2/3 gelding that was feed carrots from jacket pockets and he is TOO friendly and mouthy. Hi Bob- Yes, it is a challenge to have any sort of consistency with many handlers, especially children. As marsha jo said, even if you don't allow handouts i.e. food treats not integrated into a training program, kids will give them anyway. Hmm, if it were up to me I'd teach the students how strongly a motivator food is, and use it as a training tool. Perhaps if they understand that they are rewarding whatever behavior is occurring (usually mugging) they will be less likely to do it. often kids (adults too!) will do as they wish regardless of rules, but if they comprehand what they are doing, you have a better chance of success. IMHO Swatting is not a option, it will lead quickly to head shyness. We will quietly (and invisibly if there are students around) give their lip a pinch to get them to back off. This helps, but if there are any other suggestions I'd love to hear them. Right on about the head shyness. Nothing better than a horse with his head in the stars every time you move your arm : / When i had this problem in the beginning, I just moved away whenever the mouthing started. No attention, no food, no reward of any kind, and the mis behavior stops after a while.
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/20/01 3:35:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: move on to gently servo-ing the pliers/treat around Where'd you pick up a word like THAT to describe moving the object? Merek
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bob Stahr of THS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We run a horsemanship school and have students from 4 yrs up. We have a younger 2/3 gelding that was feed carrots from jacket pockets and he is TOO friendly and mouthy. Swatting is not a option, it will lead quickly to head shyness. We will quietly (and invisibly if there are students around) give their lip a pinch to get them to back off. This helps, but if there are any other suggestions I'd love to hear them. The standard line, of course, is Don't Hand-Feed! However, my experience has been that kids WILL do it, and if you tell them not to, they'll just wait until your back is turned. IMHO, having animals trained to take treats gently is insurance. As Gail mentioned, I'm a believer in using ordinary pliers to civilize equine mouths. I've used this method on my donkey (my first equine, whom I inadvertently taught to be grabby) and on my husband's Fjord gelding (whose backyard background apparently left a lot of holes in his training). I have not needed it on my 2 ranch-raised Fjords. I start by feeding carrot chunks via pliers, and let the animal figure out for himself that the fast chomp technique makes his teeth hurt. Hold the treat firmly, and only release it when you can feel lips, but not teeth touching the pliers. To get the point across, I sometimes cheat a little---push the treat forward as the animal's mouth is closing around it, and tap upward gently so the metal does bump front teeth. Once this lesson is learned, move on to gently servo-ing the pliers/treat around as the animal starts to reach for it---sort of simulating a kid who offers a treat, then moves it inadvertently. It didn't take my donkey long to figure out that her best course was to carefully feel for the treat with just whiskers then lips, take hold of the treat with lips, and only move it back into her teeth after it had been released to her. To decrease mouthing of hands, I put the treat on command. I'd ask her, Do you want a treat?; she'd respond by opening her mouth; I'd say, OK, and give it to her. If she reached before being given the command, I'd give her empty pliers, or pinch her lip with them (hard). She'll now stand there, begging with her mouth open, but not nibbling. (Unless she thinks she can get away with it---but even then, it's lips, not teeth that touch hands near her face.) If a kid offers her a treat at a show, she usually looks to me for permission before taking it! Many parents, who're familiar with how nippy donkeys and ponies can be, have complemented Shadow on her gentleness when accepting treats. With my husband's Fjord gelding, I had less than total success. He got the principle OK, but seemed to need refreshers every few months, just to make sure that I still meant it. However, at least now, he can take a treat from a flat palm without eating the hand! Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
RE: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clicker trainers use rewards to teach this. My successes with my stallion are, shall we say, in the early stages. That is because of lack of time due to serious problems with my demented Mom, not a failure of the technique. HOwever, what I do *when I have time* is stand outside the rails on Rom's pen. Hold out a handful of grass. When he reaches for it, I turn my back. When he holds his head straight in alignment with his body or AWAY from me(his body is usually sideways to the fence), I then click and treat. (Same thing as when you teach a dog to hold a treat on his nose until you say he can flip it up in the air and catch and eat it...he gets a reward for controlling himself, not punished for not controlling himself. I've worked up to standing next to him in the pen and insisting he look straight forward when he knows I have a treat in my hand. We are not doing perfectly, but he does quickly get the idea...just forgets easily without the repetition he needs. Now I have to get him to take the treat gently (may have to use Marsha Jo Hannah's Pliars 101 technique...or figure out another clicker exercise for it...which would be better...have considered just putting the treat in a stainless steel dog dish...but it is awkward.) All animals, including people, are similarly motivated and trainable with clicker training. You can use clicker training on people too...only carrots are not powerful motivators. :) High school teachers report good results with, believe it or not, gold stars! Kisses can work with husbands/wives. Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog is a good primer on the technique. Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: Bob Stahr of THS [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a challenge for us. We run a horsemanship school and have students from 4 yrs up. We have a younger 2/3 gelding that was feed carrots from jacket pockets and he is TOO friendly and mouthy. IMHO Swatting is not a option, it will lead quickly to head shyness. We will quietly (and invisibly if there are students around) give their lip a pinch to get them to back off. This helps, but if there are any other suggestions I'd love to hear them. |- | Bob Stahr [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 425-922-2986 / 425-885-9517 | http://www.horsemanshipschool.com/bob/ c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of carol j makosky Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:06 AM Hi List, I just can't resist this topic. I would much rather deal with a mouthy Fjord than a mouthy kid. At least you can swat the Fjord in the correct place and not be reported for child abuse. LOL
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/20/01 8:29:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would like to respectfully disagree with this! Fjords are not dogs. It is possible to teach them not to lip/chew things. It is called discipline. I taught my stallion not to lip/chew on things at 14 mo so he wouldn't lip/chew on my young children. That was 12 yr ago. He still knows better. Hi Wanda (or Joel?)- Thank you for respectfully disagreeing : ) That's what this list is for, not arguing. I would be interested to hear how you taught your stallion not to lip/chew. I do make a lot of comparisons to dogs because that is where I have more experience (10+ years, gee I must be getting old!) and I find that vastly different species can have a lot in common. I agree with you that Fjords are equines and definitely not born broke. Yikes. I made the comment because so far, I have not been impressed with anyone's attempts to teach their horses not to lip/chew. What I have witnessed is a verbal correction and/or a swat on the face or jerk on the lead rope. IMO the horse does not understand this, and lips/chews again at the next opportunity. My theory is proven by the fact that said horses need to be taught (read:corrected) daily. That's not learning. It's like (watch out -- another dog comparison coming) some of my clients who say their dog is trained to heel when actually they hold the dog in heel position with a tight leash. A dog who is trained properly needs no leash to heel, and a horse who is trained to mouth appropriate objects at appropriate times needs no jerk/swat/NO. ALSO I learn a lot from watching equines in their natural herd environment. Something I see a lot of between horses of similar rank is what I call head bopping. It's a game where two horses try to put their head on top of the other's neck. It involves a lot of lipping, mouthing, and heads knocking together like bowling pins. IMO when a person yanks/swats at their horse's head, they are in effect playing this game and telling the horse that they are of equal, not greater, rank. Just my opinion and experience. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA A HREF=http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1;Our Fjords/A
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a horse who grew to 17 + hands. He was mouthy, nippy and what ever from a very early age. I followed my old farriers advice and took a sharp nail and held it in my hand or against my body when he went to nipping or mouthing as a colt. I did not shove it at him but let him run into it. This is also good with horses who do not respect your space and roll you or crush you into walls etc. Let them hit the nail so they only know that there is pain associated with their move. For the space issue I would carry a small block of 2x4 with the nail protruding. Three or four times and I got my space.Jean PS I have friends looking for a small horse as a partner for their single young Pinto mare. It can be a throw away or old. They are very good with their horses and have a lovely estate in Tacoma WA, just below Seattle. No sick or debilitated please. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] How true Carol re mouthy kids. You see what happened when the government gets in to run the family. They have trouble controlling themselves so what kind of example do they set for us? Very funny, a swat on the bottom might shape them up too. Jean Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Mouthy fjords
This message is from: carol j makosky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wanda m hill wrote: This message is from: wanda m hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is from Joel Harman. read on the list - Fjords are very mouthy. Hi List, I just can't resist this topic. I would much rather deal with a mouthy Fjord than a mouthy kid. At least you can swat the Fjord in the correct place and not be reported for child abuse. LOL -- Built FJORD tough Carol M. On Golden Pond Northern Wisconsin
Re: Mouthy Fjords, Guard Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (jean gayle) TMary my Howdie gelding would come between me and my 16 and 17 plus hand warm bloods when I had everybody loose in the arena. The big ones always go berzerk when closed in and work is ahead. They like to make me follow them about before letting me halter them. Howdie never liked this and would try to pen whichever one i was calling into a corner for me. If the two took off in a burst of bucking and kicking he made sure he had me penned in a safe corner. He risked alot with these big ones. He himself always stood for the halter. Jean Gayle make sure I kept my promise. I hate to give human characteristics to horses, but I swear she knew what was going on and intervened on our behalf. She's done this before, but I just attributed it to coincidence. This time I know she did it on purpose. I wonder if anyone else has had this experience? Mary Ofjord, from squeaky-cold northern Minnesota Happy Solstice everyone! Jean Gayle --- A Subscriber at Techline
