Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their > horses? > > - #2 They think they already know everything > necessary? > >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about > their horses? > >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show > their horses to > advantage? > > Probably a combination of the above. What a > shame. Someone added a #5 here, and I'll add a #6: Because the horses they currently own have already been Evaluated - under more than one system. That was my reason, and has also been in the past. Line has been evauated twice - once before she left Norway and once in the US - with nearly exactly the same results. Two of her offspring have been evaluated under the US system now. When an Evaluation - regardless of the country of origin of the judges - occurs close enough to me, at a time I can get away, I now attend without horses just to learn more about what I'm looking at. Often I look at a horse and something about him/her stands out - or 'bothers' me, depending - but I don't know 'why'. Attending any kind of Evaluation provides information and experience which then provides the 'answers' to the 'whys'. Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS
This message is from: "Michele Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Carol Rivoire wrote: >> >> > > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? >> > > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? >> > > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? >> > >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? >> > >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to >>advantage >> >> May I add to your list of reasons: >> #6Been there and done that. And have done quite well I might add. (American and Dutch) #7 I am not a breeder, and own a gelding, who did well under the American system. So why waste time, energy, and $$ (never mind the stress that goes along with the preparation). #8The Keuring was not at good time or location for us. I would have like to know where the one in Ma was. Michele (who had way more fun and no stress at the local pace that weekend)
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -This is in you face !!!!!
This message is from: "Laurie Pittman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: "Lynn Mohr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > This bickering is ridiculous< I agree. I was most bothered by Carol and Vivian's posts. I thought long and hard about responding to them, but Lynn said a lot of things that I was thinking, so I think I'll let it be. What bothers me more, is that it's not even winter yet, and the bickering has already started. Not a good sign I think. I've decided to quit the list for now. I'm feeling way to good after my weekend with the Jensens to let the bickering bring me down. I need to spend more time in the barn anyway. : ) Happy Fjording you all. Play nice. Laurie
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -This is in you face !!!!!
This message is from: "Lynn Mohr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This bickering is ridiculous. I own a pair of full brother fjord geldings. I don't show and don't want to, I don't want to breed or raise foals. I just want to, and do, enjoy my horses. Therefore, I have no bias as to what system anyone chooses to use to have their horses evaluated. I see no value in these ratings for fjord owner of geldings or even mares if a person doesn't breed fjords as a buisness. My observations are as follows: 1. Not everyone is into showing or breeding, this doesn't make them lower class citizens which is the impression I get from lots of you. 2. Many of the writers to this list demonstrate a very elitist attitude and there comments appear to be written as instructions to the ignorant masses not as correspondence with peers. 3. References to horses seem to go way beyound an owners personal satisfaction with their animals and rapidly approaches nothing but bragging and self promotion, particularily some breeders. 4. I believe fjords should be more affordable without reducing quality if at all possible, especially if the increase in fjord numbers is desired. Sometimes it appears to me that if fjords were more afforable and more people had them that some current owners would no longer feel "special" and there interest in fjords might wane. 5. I agreed with Vivian's letter at first, but after I thought about it I fail to see other's "personal bashing" being much different from her comments. I also, don't care if you are tired from a tough showing season, who makes you show. I also think keeping prices up so you can continue to show and breed could be considered somewhat selfish. Also, your husbands comments which you deleted probably refer to horses like mine, which aren't imported but suit me just fine... I hope this list can return to sharing info, experiences and the joys and tribulations of fjord horse ownership for all, not just an elitist appearing few. Lynn Mohr
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -This is in you face !!!!!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bashing people in a public forum is way out of line, especially given the fact that much of what is said is based on innuendo and not fact. How many of you bashers actually got off your opinionated behinds and made the effort to attend a keuring? Do you always shoot your mouths off on subjects that you haven't bothered to research? What insight do you feel you have to offer to those who actually made this effort? Perhaps Mr van Bon does have a reputation in other countries for the high prices of Fjords in The Netherlands. Is this jealousy talking, or is it possible that Mr van Bon knows the value of the horses he is representing? And perhaps he very well does have an agenda--that of selling quality horses to other countries. As an employee of the studbook, isn't this part of his job? When someone does his job better than anyone else, why is it that we wish ill of them and their success? I have imported many horses from Holland, and I have been extremely pleased with the guidance I have received from Bob. He has many friends and fellow judges in Norway with whom he has judged in the past. I hardly think this man can be portrayed as the scourge of the Norwegian Fjordhorse. On the contrary, he is their most ardent supporter and fan. He is tireless in his work for his studbook and will be a difficult man to replace. He and Joke, his wife, and Albert Wezeman, who was also a judge at the keurings recently held here in the US, couldn't have been more supportive of the horses and their owners. They gave us all an opportunity to show our USA-based Fjords off to the best advantage of each horse. As far as the Dutch system not having a score for temperament, that is simply not true, as anyone attending a keuring would probably know. Scores are given for obedience and character in all of the ABOP tests. The horse must stand still without a header in all tests for harnessing, saddling, mounting, and putting to. In the riding test, the horse is dismounted and remounted. The horse is suppossed to remain standing--period. In the driving test, you hitch, drive the test and unhitch, ground drive the horse in a figure eight, and rehitch again. This is all done in a relatively open space WITHOUT HELP Any horse that receives an A or AA in these tests would make an excellent using horse. Believe me, I have had many well-trained horses misbehave in hand. Any horse that can get an 8 or 9 (or 10) for obedience in an ABOP test is a terrific horse, and a horse that won't stand cannot get an A. Come on people--these keurings were held as an educational tool for anyone interested. You didn't have to bring a horse to attend. The two announcements in the Herald were bought and paid for by myself, with help from others who took part. I have a phone, and at any time anyone interested could have called me for more info. I spent a lot of time and money sending out announcements to the entire membership of the NFHR,who, by the way, was less than supportive and apparently still holds that position. Keurings have been and continue to be a part of the European Norwegian Fjordhorse tradition for countless decades, whether Americans care to acknowledge this or not. The reason we have any good Fjords at all in our country is because of this European heritage, not because Americans have decided to make what they falsely perceive to be "improvements" in the breed. I'm an American,too. And, in fact, it is my greatest desire to represent my country at the World Championships in France in 2003 with a Fjord, which would certainly lend the breed a needed boost in this country as the great performance breed it is, as well as the wonderful family horse we all know it to be. I am also an ardent supporter of the Dutch system and its judges. The American equivalents of each at this point in time are wannabees--and could have learned a lot by attending an evaluation by real experts. This recent thread of derisive comments aimed at people with far more knowledge than anyone presently residing in this country is petty and meanspirited.It is fueled by jealously and self interest perhaps, which can only hurt the breed's future here in North America. Stop the judgmental crap that's been spewing and applaud any interest to better our breed! And don't construe this as me wanting a pat on the back. There were many of us who brought horses to this forum, and all of us came away with a better understanding of what the correct Fjord horse is and should be. Many horses presented and evaluated had no link to Holland and yet faired extremely well. Just exactly how does this fit into Mr. van Bon's perceived agenda? What I saw was every Fjord evaluated as an individual. I am very disheartened by what I have read today on this list. I am tired and burned out from a long showing season and the knowledge that winter is fast approaching here in
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -This is in you face !!!!!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry I actually edited the dog food remarks made by husband whom I still support. I've said my peace/piece and stand firm. Have a Happy winter.Vivian Creigh
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Arthur Rivoire wrote: > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? Well, I'm all for the Dutch evaluations ... but didn't bring horses and unfortunately, didn't even get to attend. On bringing horses: preparing a horse for an evaluation takes a lot of time, and it would help with planning if you knew well in advance (like well over a year in advance) that the keuring would be held and when and where (not criticizing Vivian here, just mentioning what would help for me). I had three mares who had foals this spring, obviously I bred them early in 1999 before I knew about the keuring. I would have liked to take two of them (two is all our trailer holds, alas) but with their mothering schedules I did not have enough time to get them trained enough and fit enough to present. If there were an evaluation within trailering range every year, or every other year, or some other regular plannable time-frame, I would plan my breedings around it. I feel I missed a big opportunity by not even going to watch, but other factors, like getting people to look after, and work, the horses in my (minimum) 5 day absense, and (I confess) a appointment on the same day with a saddler who is notoriously hard to get an appointment with, ended up convincing me I couldn't go. On the American evaluation system: the biggest problems I see with it are 1) a lack of depth in the evaluator pool, and 2) no separate system for youngstock. In the Dutch system a young horse (under 3) can get an A-premie, B-premie, etc, which is quite different than getting a 1-premie (mature horse) An A-premie indicates great potential, but this could change as the horse ages. I don't see that in the American system. Let's say I brought a baby to an American evaluation, say she was the best baby that ever walked the face of the earth, would the evaluator give her a Blue? Say he did, and she grew up in all the wrong directions and turned into a rather awkward, or unbalanced mare or in some way didn't fulfill her potential, well she's still a Blue-conformation mare. Say he didn't give her Blue, because he was aware of that possibility, well then he's got no way to formally acknowledge this baby has potential-plus. See what I mean? It gets even more complicated if it's a colt and someone is basing gelding decisions on the evaluation. Does that make sense? I've tried to communicate this before but it somehow always comes out wrong. An easy to understand system for youngstock seems, to me, to be missing from the American system. To Gayle who said "Van Bon has his own agenda". That statement seems kind of base, especially when not backed up by what exactly you mean by that. This is a highly respected professional man we are talking about in a public forum. I don't see why this has to be an either/or situation (american/dutch). Both systems are there for people who want to employ one/the other/or both. As a breeder, I'd like to see more REGULARLY SCHEDULED evaluations. Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords Moorefield Ontario
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to advantage? > Probably a combination of the above. What a shame. I would have loved to go but didn't for a number of reasons (money and work being major factors!) I would have tried harder to go if I had known that the judges would explain so much to the spectators. I wasn't sure if I would just be sitting on the sidelines, looking at the horses, but not able to hear anything. I will certain try to make it to the next Keuring - whether it be a Dutch one or a North American one. Laura Ottawa, Ontario - sunny and warm today (Friday), raining tomorrow and Sunday AGAIN!
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: John and Martie Bolinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I wanted to go to at least one of the eval's this year. I even called around about some of them, but, like Laurie said... And getting the info well enough ahead of time was a problem also. And I did not know could have a gelding evaluated. and and and . I think the eval's are a great idea, local or Keuring or whatever. I think it is great for people to have their breeding horses, especially evaluated publicly. If we had one close enough, I might even take Frida. BUT, we don't trailer much. We don't travel long distances with the horses and we can't always get away at the right time. Oh well, Martie in MD
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: Mark and Lisa McGinley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My reason for not going was for #5 (below). I participated in the Blue Earth show this year and learned a lot. Actually I had roughly the same experience at the NFHR evaluation as Carol described regarding the Dutch Keuring. It sounds like the judges acted in similar fashion in both sysytems. I think that they judged the horse and not the handler (at least in my case!) I'm happy with the NFHR system. Mark K. McGinley http://www.mariposafarm.com Karen McCarthy wrote: > This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Carol Rivoire wrote: > > > > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > > > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? > > > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? > > >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? > > >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to >advantage > > May I add to your list of reasons: > > #5 They feel that the NFHR Evalaution system is sufficient ? > > Karen McCarthy > Great Basin Fjords > Carson City,NV > > _ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com.
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wanted to comment on the Dutch Keurings because I did have an opportunity to watch some of the Keuring in Ca.; the first time I have ever seen any Keuring. I can tell you it was absolutely valuable, educational and fun! Not to detract from an American evaluation of which I have never seen, Mr.von Bon had an incredible eye and understanding of the mechanics of the horse. And he has had 35 years of experience with the Fjord horse. To me, that level of experience is what separates him from any other evaluator. I strongly suggest if the Dutch Keuring ever happens again in the US, make a point to go. You cannot go to an event like this without gaining some knowledge.
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol Rivoire wrote: > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to advantage May I add to your list of reasons: #5 They feel that the NFHR Evalaution system is sufficient ? Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City,NV _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to advantage? > Probably a combination of the above. What a shame. Maybe they support the American Evaluations and think they are good and that the Keurings are extraneous.
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: "Laurie Pittman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? > - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? > - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? >- #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? >- #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to advantage? > Probably a combination of the above. What a shame. Or is it possible that they just couldn't make it, for reasons that have nothing to do with the above, as in, time, money, job, family, etc. Laurie
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol, I understand that none of the other European contries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany etc.) will allow Holland to come and do Dutch Keurings in their countries? Why is that? >Now I'm really going to stick my neck out - After a lot of thought, I've >decided that I am not in favor of the American Evaluation program. That >is, IF, European judges are willing to come. And, I believe they are >willing. At least the Dutch judges are willing. Jean in Fairbanks,Alaska, clear and 10 F degrees and th Fjords are clean and fluffy in their winter coats! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: THE DUTCH KEURINGS -
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) At 08 >Date: Tue, 3 >book or >http://www.nfhr.c >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I've recently returned from viewing the Dutch Fjordhorse Keuring held at Vivian Creigh's in Vermont. It was EXTREMELY EDUCATIONAL & well worth it I'm grateful to Vivian for doing it. Also, much gratitude to Vivian, Ceacey Henderson and the Giagiari's for having the courage and dedication to the breed to put their stallions "on the line", so to speak, and have them evaluated publicly by these top Fjord people. Unfortunately, there were very few others, with horses or without. What a pity. What a lost opportunity. There were about 24 horses presented in Vermont. Each horse was inspected in a group and individually. At the end, each horse was stood before the spectators, and the judges told us what was good, bad, and average about each. And WHY each point mattered I traveled three days to see this event, and wasn't disappointed. The opportunity for learning was tremendous. It's incomprehensible that more people didn't jump at this chance to learn about their breed from a man with over 35 years experience judging Fjords. -- WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND BRING HORSES? - #1 They don't want foreigners judging their horses? - #2 They think they already know everything necessary? - #3 They fear what the judges might say about their horses? - #4 They don't think they know enough to show their horses to advantage? Probably a combination of the above. What a shame! A phenomenal opportunity was missed. --- Had they participated, or come to observe, they would have found that the judges were . . . . KIND, FORGIVING, OBJECTIVE, FAIR, PROFESSIONAL & UNQUESTIONABLY EXPERT. They did everything possible to give each horse the best opportunity to show his best. --- HUMAN ERROR COUNTED FOR VERY LITTLE. The judges' eyes were on the horse not the rider/driver/handler. The Vermont Keuring and those that followed in MA, NC, VA & CA were a huge success from the point of view of the owners. Those lucky people, smart, curious, and dedicated enough to participate gained a new understanding of Fjord judging, as well as a knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of their own horses.Ask any of the owners who brought horses. Those were happy people. It was quite amazing --- no matter how their horses fared, the owners were satisified acquiring a new understanding of Fjordhorse quality. And an understanding that NO HORSE IS PERFECT. It's the total horse that counts! THE EMPHASIS IS ALWAYS ON THE POSITIVE It really was too bad that more people didn't take advantage of such a unique opportunity. Some of the reasons they didn't can be easily fixed the next time. For example * The pre-Keuring Information stated that all horses must be branded or micro-chipped. This led some people to assume that the horse must have attended a previous Keuring in order to have been branded or micro-chipped. Some people didn't know they could request a micro-chip from the NFHR to be implanted by their own vet. * I believe more people would have brought horses if they'd better understood the concept of a KEURING. If they'd understood that the judges would be LOOKING ONLY AT THE HORSE, and not the abilities of the owner. On several occasions, Van Bon was not satisfied that the rider/driver was allowing the horse to show himself to full advantage. Once he asked the rider to let go of the reins and ride the horse forward. This resulted in the horse being able to show himself much better.. On another occasion, Bob asked the person doing the Driving Exam if he (Bob) could try the horse. Again, this resulted in much better movement as Bob "allowed" the horse to move forward. --- This is what I mean about the emphasis being on the horse and not the owner/rider/driver. A Keuring differs from a horse show. At a Keuring, the judges give each horse a full opportunity to show to his best, even if it means having someone else run, ride or drive the horse. The judge's job is to DETERMINE THE HORSE'S NATURAL ABILITIES, unencumbered by the handler, either his ineptitutde in showing the horse's abilities, or skill in masking the horse's faults. A Keuring is all about judging the quality of Fjordhorses. It is not about professional trainers, fancy clothes or equipment. AND SPEAKING OF PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS, Van Bon wasn't in favor of people using professionals to show their horses. He said - "THE FJORD IS A FAMILY HORSE.". . . "We (in Holland) like to see the owner showing his own horse." He went on to say "Of course, if the owner is too old to ride, he can get somebody to ride the horse, but we would prefer that it be a family member . . . or a neighbor's daughter, not a professional." ** (There was an example of this in VT. A breeder had a professional r
