Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I was a little confused the other day as it looked like the highest point on Finne's neck was in the middle instead of at the poll. But when I looked closer, I realized his head set was fine, but that the nice arch in his mane made his neck look bent in the middle. I love the look of the arch in the mane but wonder if dressage judges would get confused too! I participated as a demonstration rider for a USDF judge's training seminar on our stallion, BDF Obelisk. The shape of the neck of the horse was one of the topics for which we were used. Obelisk has a somewhat cresty neck, so no matter how close you cut the mane, if his head is in the correct position (at least for this stage in his training progression) his crest will be higher than his poll. The seminar clinician had me place his head in various positions as I was riding him, to demonstrate how to look at the horse's neck properly to determine if the poll was at the highest point, no matter the shape of the neck. It is important to look at the shape you have cut into your horse's mane, as it can affect the overall appearance of the shape of the neck. Quite frequently I see a mane that is cut too thick (or tall) closer to the horse's head, which creates the appearance of a heavier, thicker, neck. As evaluators, we recognize this and look beyond the shape of the mane. One time, one of the evaluators reached over and bent the mane down so the others could take a better look at the true shape of the neck! Conversely, the mane can also be cut in such a manner at to try to hide slight faults in the shape of the neck. We look for that also. Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com "Remember, a horse can tell you a lot of things, if you watch and expect it to be sensible and intelligent." Mary O'Hara - My Friend Flicka
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: Genie Dethloff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> IT SEEMS TO ME that "high headed" must logically be tied in with the neck, length, how it is seated and relates to the shoulders, etc. Yes, you are right Ruthie. Not necessarily the length of the neck, as a horse with a short neck can also be "up headed" or "high headed". It mostly lies with how the shoulder lays (whether it is well laid back, as in a good riding horse, or straighter, as in a draught horse) and with how the neck is attached to the shoulder and wither. I was a little confused the other day as it looked like the highest point on Finne's neck was in the middle instead of at the poll. But when I looked closer, I realized his head set was fine, but that the nice arch in his mane made his neck look bent in the middle. I love the look of the arch in the mane but wonder if dressage judges would get confused too! -- Genie Dethloff and Finne Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Has anyone noticed that "high headed" people get more notice than "head hangers"? Jean Gayle Author "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> HmmmI was given an Arabian mare who had been trained with tie down type stuffI am not sure what it wasmaybe where the run the reins thru rings that create a rein action that is directed lower than your hands. Every time I tried to ride her, I felt like I was riding a snake. Maybe that had something to do with it. I did see a fjord horse last year that had an extrememly long, what we call a "swan" neck. A horse with a neck that is too long can be difficult to ride or drive, as the neck is less stable and getting the horse to be balanced and straight is more difficult.
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A horse can be high headed and not have presence, but horses (or other animals for that matter too) that have presence tend to hold their heads up with pride. Tamara On Wednesday, March 2, 2005, at 07:09 AM, starfirefarm wrote: It is most important that the horse gives an overall balanced, harmonious, impression and a horse that was too high headed would not be rewarded.
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...Not necessarily the length of the neck, as a horse with a short neck can also be "up headed" or "high headed". ..Beth I'VE NEVER SEEN an undo example of this in Fjords, which is not to say... Shetlands, yes. Of course you're correct in that we should be speaking proportionately. I think we should value those swan necks you refer to, we will need them to extend the stubbies. =)) Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> IT SEEMS TO ME that "high headed" must logically be tied in with the neck, length, how it is seated and relates to the shoulders, etc. Yes, you are right Ruthie. Not necessarily the length of the neck, as a horse with a short neck can also be "up headed" or "high headed". It mostly lies with how the shoulder lays (whether it is well laid back, as in a good riding horse, or straighter, as in a draught horse) and with how the neck is attached to the shoulder and wither. I did see a fjord horse last year that had an extrememly long, what we call a "swan" neck. A horse with a neck that is too long can be difficult to ride or drive, as the neck is less stable and getting the horse to be balanced and straight is more difficult. In mentioning quarter horse peanut rollers, I had a Paint filly here for training that fascinated me, as she was a natural peanut roller. Whether she was in the pasture, or under saddle, she went just like those poor Western Pleasure peanut rollers you see at the QH shows. Her conformation definitely reflected her way of going. It was fascinating. I really felt sorry for her, as it always appeard that she was looking at the ground. I'm sure that, if the owner wanted, she could sell her to some western pleasure person for big bucks! Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com "Remember, a horse can tell you a lot of things, if you watch and expect it to be sensible and intelligent." Mary O'Hara - My Friend Flicka
Stallion presence
This message is from: M Korose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey List: During the discussion I am reminded of the Fjord Horse description from Norway: "The eyes should be like the mountain lakes on a midsummer evening, big and bright. A bold bearing of the neck like a lad from the mountains on his way to his beloved. Well-defined withers like the contours of the mountains set against an evening sky. The temperament as lively as a waterfall in spring, and still good-natured." This says it all. Our two stallions are pastured side by side in paddocks that can see the other horses. They spend MOST of their time looking just like this description as they gaze at the others (keeping a watchful eye as stallions are supposed to). It is absolutely paramount that stallions behave and in this vein, we took an 8 month old "prospect" to the PA horse expo last weekend to add to his "life training skills". He was great, walked around in the buildings, stayed in a stall on the floor, and had to be by himself when the other boys were doing demos. He had company most of the time so it was a positive experience. We had fun. Marsha in VA (with Curt in WV most of the time, but this too shall pass). - Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are those who have very nice overall conformation, and they might receive a breeding license, but because they lack the presence of the special few, they may not be ranked in the top three. It is most important that the horse gives an overall balanced, harmonious, impression and a horse that was too high headed would not be rewarded. Beth IT SEEMS TO ME that "high headed" must logically be tied in with the neck, length, how it is seated and relates to the shoulders, etc. (I'm not taking exception to anything you've said Beth.. just following the vein of thought) ...and concurring that 'high headed' isn't necessarily an indication of a spirited or contrived horse. It is inconceivable to me that anyone would deliberately mold a horse to carry their head in an unnaturally lowered position, but then I prefer a horse au naturale. I know, I know... it is done, but wouldn't people look stupid if they were made to walk around with their chin on their chest? (akin to binding feet). I can hardly bear to watch what they've done to QH's. Ruthie, nw mt, US
Re: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It would be interesting for the evaluators to be able to quantify in their own minds the physical things that result in their perception of "presence" as there is the possibility that we could be unconsciously moving in the direction of the saddlebred, Morgan and Arabian world. If we are, we should be aware of it. It is always good to be aware of the conformation and training techniques that we are selecting for. Gail I don't think there is much chance of evaluators' perception moving in the direction of the saddlebred, Morgans or Arabians. Time and time again it has been said that we are evaluating Norwegian Fjords, not other breeds. If you think of all of those 3 year old stallions that are presented in the ring at one time in Nordfjordeid (I use this as an example only because there are so many to see at one time) there are definitely a few that exude presence, yet are well mannered. There are those who have very nice overall conformation, and they might receive a breeding license, but because they lack the presence of the special few, they may not be ranked in the top three. It is most important that the horse gives an overall balanced, harmonious, impression and a horse that was too high headed would not be rewarded. Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com "Remember, a horse can tell you a lot of things, if you watch and expect it to be sensible and intelligent." Mary O'Hara - My Friend Flicka
RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "Alan Zohner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gail Russell Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:29 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness? This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Another thing that I believe contributes to the perception that people call "presence" is *high headedness.* Thank you, Gail, for your IMO right on observation and caution. I have a mare, out of Lancelot (Gjest) with Gromar blood from the bottom who I think is very special. Looks are great and disposition/performance the best, however, both at state fairs and at Libby the judges marked her down due to her habit of carrying her head a little lower than they liked. I chaffed a bit at this and was delighted that someone brought this topic up. Alan
Re: Stallion "presence"- like Ruth said.
This message is from: Genie Dethloff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think presence is a major asset in a show horse and I don't think it has anything to do with aggression or bad manners. I have a Border Terrier that has that presence. She made a fabulous show dog because she was sure everyone wanted to see her and she took "standing pretty" for the judge very seriously. She took many group placements, was in the top ten in the country, and was best of opposite sex at the national specialty (over 300 dogs). The thing that really showed her presence was when I had her in the bleachers with me at the Cobo dog show (the biggest in the Detroit area); we were watching an agility class and the crowd started vigorous clapping for one dog, Dawn stood up on my lap in a perfect show stance and started barking - she was sure the clapping was for her!! -- Genie Dethloff and Finne Ann Arbor, Michigan
RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I remember seeing on a video of an early evaluation in Vermont, with Bob Van Bon, that he commented on Solar being like a mare...lacking the stallion presence that he had shown at evaluations in Holland and Norway. Lindsey Sweeney said later, I think, that She had worked very hard to get him to behave in a much calmer attitude, with him being hard to handle as a stallion before. Apparently to the European judges, his subdued demeaner was a mark against him! Maybe Sue Giargiari remembers this? Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, light snow, +12F >It would be interesting for the evaluators to be able to quantify in their >own minds the physical things that result in their perception of "presence" >as there is the possibility that we could be unconsciously moving in the >direction of the saddlebred, Morgan and Arabian world. If we are, we should >be aware of it. It is always good to be aware of the conformation and >training techniques that we are selecting for. > >Gail
Re: Stallion "presence"
This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes, very well said. Charisma, pride, self-confidence whatever you want to call it. It comes from within and cannot be taught. When you see it you know it. Tamara On Tuesday, March 1, 2005, at 08:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think presence is a major asset in a show horse and I don't think it has anything to do with aggression or bad manners. I also don't think it's limited to stallions. I've seen mares with it and I own a gelding that's got it to burn. I think "pride" might be an acceptable synonym for this quality...the ability to walk into an arena and own it. No squealing. No kicking. No throwing yourself around because you don't have to. Ears up. An alive and confident look...so that when someone runs their eyes down the line of entries, there is no way they can pass you without, at the very least, pausing. And I don't think it can be taught. Manners, situational behaviors, skills...yes. Presence - no. As one of my first teachers told me long ago, "You either got or you ain't." So, lucky indeed are those of us with horses possessing all the wonderful Fjord qualities we've come to love and presence to boot. Kay Van Natta Yellow Pony Farm SE MI...with another 6 inches plus drifting.
Re: Stallion "presence"- like Ruth said.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think presence is a major asset in a show horse and I don't think it has anything to do with aggression or bad manners. I also don't think it's limited to stallions. I've seen mares with it and I own a gelding that's got it to burn. I think "pride" might be an acceptable synonym for this quality...the ability to walk into an arena and own it. No squealing. No kicking. No throwing yourself around because you don't have to. Ears up. An alive and confident look...so that when someone runs their eyes down the line of entries, there is no way they can pass you without, at the very least, pausing. And I don't think it can be taught. Manners, situational behaviors, skills...yes. Presence - no. As one of my first teachers told me long ago, "You either got or you ain't." So, lucky indeed are those of us with horses possessing all the wonderful Fjord qualities we've come to love and presence to boot. Kay Van Natta Yellow Pony Farm SE MI...with another 6 inches plus drifting.
RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I remember seeing on a video of an early evaluation in Vermont, with Bob Van Bon, that he commented on Solar being like a mare...lacking the stallion presence that he had shown at evaluations in Holland and Norway. Lindsey Sweeney said later, I think, that She had worked very hard to get him to behave in a much calmer attitude, with him being hard to handle as a stallion before. Apparently to the European judges, his subdued demeaner was a mark against him! Maybe Sue Giargiari remembers this? Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, light snow, +12F >It would be interesting for the evaluators to be able to quantify in their >own minds the physical things that result in their perception of "presence" >as there is the possibility that we could be unconsciously moving in the >direction of the saddlebred, Morgan and Arabian world. If we are, we should >be aware of it. It is always good to be aware of the conformation and >training techniques that we are selecting for. > >Gail
Re: Stallion "presence"
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Charisma is even harder to define.but I take it to mean that "hey you guys, have a look at glorious me" look. Gail SOMETHING LIKE THAT all right =)) I thought Peg said it well. The dictionary says that 'charisma' is an exceptional ability to attract and influence others; marked personal charm or magnetism. Well knowing charisma personified (horseified?) in our stallion A2Z Thorson--who exudes presence ...I would say that it a quality of exceptional life energy, self-esteem, and authority. While he does bristle with importance, =)) he has the most beautiful spirit and has ever been sweet and noble every minute of his life with us, from infancy upward. Gosh, it sounds like we love that dear boy doesn't it. =)) Ruthie, nw mt US
RE: Stallion "presence" as highheadedness?
This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Another thing that I believe contributes to the perception that people call "presence" is *high headedness.* Diamant's owner liked him because he has a tendency toward upheadedness, probably from his Rei Halsnaes breeding. His owner referred to himself as liking "high headed horses." If you think about it, promoting high headedness is what saddlebred, morgan and Arabian halter showing is all about. In the quarter horse world, no one is worrying about that kind of "presence"they want to see a horse's head DOWN.where the cows are!and want "cowiness." When Beth trained Rom she did a very good job teaching him to lower his head. He puts his head *to the ground* when being bridled and unbridled. This is not where his head would be if left to his own devices. This is a typical behavior used by the cowboy/vaquero/natural horsemanship/negative reinforcement/calm down cue training model. It would be interesting for the evaluators to be able to quantify in their own minds the physical things that result in their perception of "presence" as there is the possibility that we could be unconsciously moving in the direction of the saddlebred, Morgan and Arabian world. If we are, we should be aware of it. It is always good to be aware of the conformation and training techniques that we are selecting for. Gail
RE: Stallion "presence"
This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Peg, Charisma is even harder to define.but I take it to mean that "hey you guys, have a look at glorious me" look. Rom was never really aggressive, but he could easily hurt someone if he was spending all his energy showing off to the crowd, other stallions, mares, etc. Andthat showing off is, I suspect, on a slipperly slope to challenging other stallions and other "aggressive" actions. In Rom's case, he definitely had the ability to present that "hey you guys, over here" look, but, for safety reasons, it was better to have him under complete control because he had a history of taking over and doing his own thing. A horse that had been better trained from birth could possibly be allowed to show off a bit more without risking losing control of him. Gail
Re: Stallion "presence"
This message is from: Tamara Rousso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I totally agree with you, Peg. Presence is a hard thing to describe in an animal, but once you see it the concept becomes crystal clear. It is true of any mammal I think, and you will hear the term used in describing show animals whether they be llamas, goats, or Fjords! Charisma is a good word for it. It is an element from within that makes that animal stand out from the rest and makes the rest of us take notice. Tamara On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Douglas Knutsen wrote: This message is from: "Douglas Knutsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all - I want to respond to your last post, Gail R. My understanding of "Presence," in stallion, gelding, or mare, is that the main ingredient is Charisma, not aggressiveness. Pride in Self. Bye for now, Peg Peg Knutsen www.elltel.net/kffjord/
Stallion "presence"
This message is from: "Douglas Knutsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all - I want to respond to your last post, Gail R. My understanding of "Presence," in stallion, gelding, or mare, is that the main ingredient is Charisma, not aggressiveness. Pride in Self. Bye for now, Peg Peg Knutsen www.elltel.net/kffjord/
