Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. Besides the sheer nightmare of the wires that motivates this plea, the current package is really a base station unit and not terribly portable, even though I'm willing and able to do it. But, the current SDR 1000 really kind of resists going portable. Or, put it another way, taking it portable, at the very least, disturbs all those darn wires. You hesitate in the way you might not with another rig. If it wasn't a 12v rig, I wonder if it would even occur to anyone to try. I don't think having the Flex unit itself having ethernet is critical at all. Nor particularly desirable. Given that (in my suggestion), the major smarts, including the DSP logic, stays off the SDR itself and that the SDR hardware remains primarily latches (now supplemented by a D/A A/D process _and no more_) then there'll be a second PC in the picture that can and will do the required networking. Even in Jim's suggestion, this appears to be true. Leaving the SDR off the network (and, therefore, no direct internet connection) simplifies who controls the radio questions anyway. So, again, if the Mini-ITX machine is separate, it's no problem in my view of it. I want the current form factor (with fewer plugs) to do the job. If ethernet is somehow the only way to do my version of this, I'll go for it. But please, no all in one kind of unit. Keep the hardware as simple, small, 12v, and as dumb as possible. Ideally in the very same box or one only slightly larger. All I really want to do is _mildly_ upgrade the SDR 1000 to contain enough horsepower to do the D/A and A/D so we can get rid of all those wires and all those easily disturbed plugs. Not a whit more. If it weren't for the delicate wires, I'd say what we have is already perfect. But, the wires just have to go. Maybe this is something that some decent soul will produce as a product. I'd do it tomorrow if the PowerSDR software were adequately partitionable (and if I could figure out how to netboot XP..although, a
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Larry, it sounds like what you are looking for is what is currently developing at HPSDR (see www.hpsdr.org ). A ham dedicated ADC/DAC (sound card) board and controller board are currently being prototyped. Last week a replacement board for the SDR-1000 PIO card was suggested with enthousiastic response. The combination will result in only one USB cable going from the SDR-1000 to the PC - no more audio cables, no more parrallel cable. It is still early days and it may take a little while for everything to develop to the point where the boards can be purchased (most likely through TAPR). At this stage it is also unclear how much technical prowess will be required to make it all work (h/w and/or s/w skills)but at least you don't stand alone in your plea. Only drawback: is that to combine everything, you'll need a larger enclosure. Exactly how large remains to be seen. Thought this might interest you, 73 de Joe - AB1DO - Original Message - From: Larry Loen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 08:53 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer) Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. Besides the sheer nightmare of the wires that motivates this plea, the current package is really a base station unit and not terribly portable, even though I'm willing and able to do it. But, the current SDR 1000 really kind of resists going portable. Or, put it another way, taking it portable, at the very least, disturbs all those darn wires. You hesitate in the way you might not with another rig. If it wasn't a 12v rig, I wonder if it would even occur to anyone to try. I don't think having the Flex unit itself having ethernet is critical at all. Nor particularly desirable. Given that (in my suggestion), the major smarts, including the DSP logic, stays off the SDR itself and that the SDR hardware remains primarily latches (now supplemented by a D/A A/D process _and no more_) then there'll be a
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Hi Everyone: This proposal represents a very slippery slope. Let's try studio grade gold plated cables first, we already have the sound card. We can do this today. Our music industry has no problem with good quality cables. The last thing we want to do is hardwired upgrades. If an A/D converter and CPU are added, soon to follow will be RAM, a disk drive, Internet card, then even a small screen with keyboard (maybe even viruses). Whenever frequently upgraded components are in the box, the box will change at least once a year. Then you have an Icom or Yeasu. In fact we already have Icoms and Yeasus of all shapes, sizes and colors. They're not as good yet but they keep introducing new and improved models to sell. I spent money on studio grade connecting cables from Sam Ash and Guitar Center and spend all my time hamming or trying to improver my settings. NOW, if anyone wants to talk about changing from BNC to SO239, I'll be very interested. Jerry Larry Loen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. Besides the sheer nightmare of the wires that motivates this plea, the current package is really a base station unit and not terribly portable, even though I'm willing and able to do it. But, the current SDR 1000 really kind of resists going portable. Or, put it another way, taking it portable, at the very least, disturbs all those darn wires. You hesitate in the way you might not with another rig. If it wasn't a 12v rig, I wonder if it would even occur to anyone to try. I don't think having the Flex unit itself having ethernet is critical at all. Nor particularly desirable. Given that (in my suggestion), the major smarts, including the DSP logic, stays off the SDR itself and that the SDR hardware remains primarily latches (now supplemented by a D/A A/D process _and no more_) then there'll be a second PC in the picture that can and will do the required networking. Even in Jim's suggestion, this appears to be true. Leaving the SDR off the network (and, therefore, no direct internet connection)
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Larry, Jim, Joe, Actually, in principle I agree all you said. Nevertheless, let me express my opinion about the HPSDR project. It is now really overly complicated and space hungry concept, especially due to that ATLAS motherboard. However, at this phase of DEVELOPMENT this kind of solution makes anything possible. It is an excellent general purpose tool, not the final product! As soon as the submodules are available, I think, will be the time to design some more convenient interconnection systems tailored for the actual application. Then possibly each of us can easily be his or hers own tailor or seamstress. 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 25/09/06, Joe - AB1DO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Larry, it sounds like what you are looking for is what is currently developing at HPSDR (see www.hpsdr.org ). A ham dedicated ADC/DAC (sound card) board and controller board are currently being prototyped. Last week a replacement board for the SDR-1000 PIO card was suggested with enthousiastic response. The combination will result in only one USB cable going from the SDR-1000 to the PC - no more audio cables, no more parrallel cable. It is still early days and it may take a little while for everything to develop to the point where the boards can be purchased (most likely through TAPR). At this stage it is also unclear how much technical prowess will be required to make it all work (h/w and/or s/w skills)but at least you don't stand alone in your plea. Only drawback: is that to combine everything, you'll need a larger enclosure. Exactly how large remains to be seen. Thought this might interest you, 73 de Joe - AB1DO - Original Message - From: Larry Loen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 08:53 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer) Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. Besides the sheer nightmare of the wires that motivates this
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
I think this is the wrong direction and a step backward. Why reinvent the Orion. Ten Tec is way ahead on that. Ahti Aintila [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Larry, Jim, Joe, Actually, in principle I agree all you said. Nevertheless, let me express my opinion about the HPSDR project. It is now really overly complicated and space hungry concept, especially due to that ATLAS motherboard. However, at this phase of DEVELOPMENT this kind of solution makes anything possible. It is an excellent general purpose tool, not the final product! As soon as the submodules are available, I think, will be the time to design some more convenient interconnection systems tailored for the actual application. Then possibly each of us can easily be his or hers own tailor or seamstress. 73, Ahti OH2RZ On 25/09/06, Joe - AB1DO wrote: Larry, it sounds like what you are looking for is what is currently developing at HPSDR (see www.hpsdr.org ). A ham dedicated ADC/DAC (sound card) board and controller board are currently being prototyped. Last week a replacement board for the SDR-1000 PIO card was suggested with enthousiastic response. The combination will result in only one USB cable going from the SDR-1000 to the PC - no more audio cables, no more parrallel cable. It is still early days and it may take a little while for everything to develop to the point where the boards can be purchased (most likely through TAPR). At this stage it is also unclear how much technical prowess will be required to make it all work (h/w and/or s/w skills)but at least you don't stand alone in your plea. Only drawback: is that to combine everything, you'll need a larger enclosure. Exactly how large remains to be seen. Thought this might interest you, 73 de Joe - AB1DO - Original Message - From: Larry Loen To: Jim Lux Cc: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 08:53 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer) Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think.
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Yes Yes Yes, that's where a Japanese radio works best! I mean, as in the carry-on bag. Mike Naruta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Homebrew electronics in a carry-on bag? Get ready for a cavity search. :) Mike - AA8K Larry Loen wrote: But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20060925/d6081848/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Larry, [snip] Thought this might interest you, 73 de Joe - AB1DO It does indeed. I subscribed to the reflector for a while, but gave up because I'm just not a solder jockey (I went so far as to buy the backplane, but so far, sans parts on my end). We'll see about the enclosure part of it. It has to not only fit in the bottom of my carryon, it has to survive whatever forces can be reasonably expected to occur in a plane ride. In short, I'm looking for something to DXpedition with. It's starting to be part of my interests and I really don't particularly like leaving the SDR 1000 at home. But, I am, albeit not quite for these reasons this time. Still, my _wife_ is happy I'm doing so. She views the current box' transport as a lot of added complexity. We generally pack very tightly on trips. However, I can see myself looking for something like this. I will want service and support, too, though, so I guess that's why I put my plea in here. I have no recent experience of TAPR, so I can't say anything good or bad there. I can certainly vouch (as so many of us can) for Flex' quality of servicing what they sell. Besides, I really can almost imagine my suggestion being implemented as a replacement board for the 2 meter transverter. The existing main flex board wouldn't even have to change much (mostly, get rid of the 1/4 plugs and accept control lines from the new card instead of the parallel port) and probably the RFE and Power Amp boards not at all. DOn't know about the ATU, don't own it. But, in my setup anyway, if the PC and D/A A/D part can fit in or about the size of the existing 2m card, it would actually work for the replacement of two boards, also provided there are no noise/grounding problems passing the required signals back and forth between the cards. If. Ah, well, a guy can dream. Anyway, let me know when there's an assembled option for what you're all up to. I'll certainly consider it. But, I must confess, if there's a hope of getting the Flex version (especially, a real dream here, as a retrofit), I'm all over it. Larry WO0Z ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Hi Everyone: This proposal represents a very slippery slope. Let's try studio grade gold plated cables first, we already have the sound card. We can do this today. Our music industry has no problem with good quality cables. If gold cables really did it, I wouldn't have said anything. Besides, the music industry does not, so far as I know, run on 1/8 mini plugs. Nor upon the vagarities of parallel computer ports. These are real problems that, one and three quarters years in, I'm still suffering from with some regularity. The kind of heart-in-my-throat kind of did I blow the rig that I can frankly do without. The last thing we want to do is hardwired upgrades. If an A/D converter and CPU are added, soon to follow will be RAM, a disk drive, Internet card, then even a small screen with keyboard (maybe even viruses). Not in my universe, they wouldn't. In any case, we appear to be in no danger of a plethora of products from Flex. I don't mean that in a negative way -- I mean it in the sense that they can't / won't / don't do that sort of thing, perhaps because they're on the same page as you are, here. The key is to really view the radio as a true PC peripheral and stick to that notion at all costs. It should look embedded both for cost and complexity reasons. Also, it is more flexible in the end. If we just make the latches visible, we can put all the yearly update stuff you're talking about in the PC-side software. Where it belongs. So it can come _faster_. I want not a whit more in the hardware than necessary. But, IME and IMHO, it needs this little bit more. I think it would enlarge the market for the product, too. Whenever frequently upgraded components are in the box, the box will change at least once a year. Not in my universe. I don't want a hardfile or an internet connection. Those are both overkill and will make the box bigger which will lead to lots of problems, eventually. I certainly don't want a hardfile to keep me from bringing up my radio and I don't want a long, drawn out boot process, either. Neither, I think, will anyone else who thinks about it long enough. This really is a peripheral and the logic of a peripheral applies. This doesn't, in the end, want to grow up to be a computer. It wants to stay flexible and putting as much in the software is the way to go, especially if the product, as I hope and expect a proposal like mine would work out in truth and not in dreams, is physically more convenient, reliable, and transportable. Larry WO0Z ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
At 05:53 AM 9/25/2006, Larry Loen wrote: Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. I mentioned Mini-ITX because, at least in the Via versions, they're cheap, small, run off 12V, and have all the standard interfaces. Even with a USB, A/D, etc. you're going to need some sort of processing on the board, so why not use something inexpensive, low power. The trick would be resisting the temptation to load up that poor little 533 MHz (or 1 GHz processor) I don't think having the Flex unit itself having ethernet is critical at all. Nor particularly desirable. I like Ethernet because it's high rate and totally standardized. Say the SDR1000+mobo just spews the samples out on a UDP socket. You could hook any number of clients onto the stream, etc. You don't have a distance limit (unlike 1394 or USB), and almost every PC these days has a Ethernet interface with good bandwidth to the processor. If ethernet is somehow the only way to do my version of this, I'll go for it. But please, no all in one kind of unit. Keep the hardware as simple, small, 12v, and as dumb as possible. Ideally in the very same box or one only slightly larger. All I really want to do is _mildly_ upgrade the SDR 1000 to contain enough horsepower to do the D/A and A/D so we can get rid of all those wires and all those easily disturbed plugs. Not a whit more. If it weren't for the delicate wires, I'd say what we have is already perfect. But, the wires just have to go. Maybe this is something that some decent soul will produce as a product. I'd do it tomorrow if the PowerSDR software were adequately partitionable (and if I could figure out how to netboot XP..although, a dedicated HD in the package isn't a huge problem). Heck, if there was someone else who would figure out how to make a bootable image of Linux on the embedded mobo stored on a CF that PowerSDR under XP talked to over the net, that would be fine. In my version of it, I don't care if the firmware is some simple embedded thing in itself or has a full-blown Linux underneath. But, if things go wrong, it has to be able to be powered off and on just like today's unit, with not much delay before being ready after power on. If there's a Linux in there, it had better be bootable from some sort of re-writable ROM and very spartan. That's a given.. As above.. the key is resisting the urge to load the kitchen sink on that mobo. The command set need not even be as sophisticated as Kenwood CAT anyway. Set latch 1 to 55 and receive current D/A packet of data would be enough of a command set, with adequate publication of same (or, easily inferred from the schematic). The rest of the complexity would be outboard and could reasonably be expected to be the current PowerSDR console, the new one, or something else. One could do this level with a whole variety of processors, from PICs (maybe) to Rabbits on up. But, by the time you do the board, etc. you're at the $100 cost of a bottom of the line Mini-ITX, which is driven down by huge consumer volumes. Any SDR custom solution is going to have small volumes, so the relatively large NRE will need to be spread over relatively few units. No feature creep please. I don't want much more than we have already. Less is definitely more, here. precisely. Simple, straightforward interfaces with IP sockets... Jim ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
At 09:33 AM 9/25/2006, Mike Naruta wrote: Homebrew electronics in a carry-on bag? I've carried all manner of odd looking electronics on, and I have a beard and ponytail, and look somewhat suspicious. No searches yet (except the time I didn't take my shoes off). Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
I strongly suggest we get the software be settled before the hardware is touched. I agree there are a lot of cables but try and dupe the quality of a Delta 44 for $150 as a built-in. NOW, if we can make a spot for the Delta card or USB sound device and plugs in the radio box then were talking and that I would jump at that because those are the parts more likely to need changing and they're cheap to replace. The Unearthly wisdom of the Flex Radio dreamers is that they built only what they needed to. For the rest they looked to off the shelf finished high quality add-ons. This method made a top quality radio system at a very very low price. And unlike the store bought appliance radios, the real hardware quality changes are probably going to be in the non-Flex add-ons. Better computers, USB connections etc. But let's keep dreaming for now, leave the hardware alone and perfect the software. Maybe there will be hardware soon that can be bought at a music store that can be bought and plugged in. Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:53 AM 9/25/2006, Larry Loen wrote: Jim Lux wrote: At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. As long as the Mini-ITX is separate from what I'm asking for, analogous to what is done with the Dell package, I have no problems with this. But, I want the radio _itself_ to be portable or at least reasonably transportable. That means a 12v unit and also a unit as a whole that can be put into the bottom of a carry on bag for an airliner. Something physically not much bigger (maybe not bigger at all) than the current unit. I just want it very _slightly_ smarter in roughly the same package. I want it to be just a little more like a conventional radio and not outsmart ourselves with added complexity. Conceptually, take out the 2m transverter and insert the A/D D/A CPU-based package in its place. That's all, at least physically. Start adding in a full Mini-ITX PC as a single, indivisible unit and the whole suggestion becomes more problematical. Flex (whatever it does) is not going to have a gigantic product line. I vote for a KISS USB peripheral approach because it would acutally serve a _wider_ menu of needs. As I read Jim's idea, there's still a second computer involved anyway, so the Mini ITX, as a platform has more minuses than plusses, I think. I mentioned Mini-ITX because, at least in the Via versions, they're cheap, small, run off 12V, and have all the standard interfaces. Even with a USB, A/D, etc. you're going to need some sort of processing on the board, so why not use something inexpensive, low power. The trick would be resisting the temptation to load up that poor little 533 MHz (or 1 GHz processor) I don't think having the Flex unit itself having ethernet is critical at all. Nor particularly desirable. I like Ethernet because it's high rate and totally standardized. Say the SDR1000+mobo just spews the samples out on a UDP socket. You could hook any number of clients onto the stream, etc. You don't have a distance limit (unlike 1394 or USB), and almost every PC these days has a Ethernet interface with good bandwidth to the processor. If ethernet is somehow the only way to do my version of this, I'll go for it. But please, no all in one kind of unit. Keep the hardware as simple, small, 12v, and as dumb as possible. Ideally in the very same box or one only slightly larger. All I really want to do is _mildly_ upgrade the SDR 1000 to contain enough horsepower to do the D/A and A/D so we can get rid of all those wires and all those easily disturbed plugs. Not a whit more. If it weren't for the delicate wires, I'd say what we have is already perfect. But, the wires just have to go. Maybe this is something that some decent soul will produce as a product. I'd do it tomorrow if the PowerSDR software were adequately partitionable (and if I could figure out how to netboot XP..although, a dedicated HD in the package isn't a huge problem). Heck, if there was someone else who would figure out how to make a bootable image of Linux on the embedded mobo stored on a CF that PowerSDR under XP talked to over the net, that would be fine. In my version of it, I don't care if the firmware is some simple embedded thing in itself or has a full-blown Linux underneath. But, if things go wrong, it has to be able to be powered off and on just like today's unit, with not much delay before being ready after power on. If there's a Linux in there, it had better be bootable from some sort of re-writable ROM and very spartan. That's a given.. As above.. the key is resisting the urge to load the kitchen sink on that mobo. The command set need not even be as sophisticated as Kenwood CAT anyway. Set latch
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
Gerald Capodieci wrote: I strongly suggest we get the software be settled before the hardware is touched. IMHO, no, if Flex wants to go in a direction anything like this, the software team needs to understand exactly what this is going to be as soon as possible. If it is as I suggest it, it probably doesn't matter much (might look largely like a combination of a new sound card and a new form of parallel to USB cable in its effects -- or, it might be more radical in terms of the data flow since it would leave out anything like today's sound card interface, depending). Either way, I don't see how waiting for something that (if I am right) there is a clear need for should wait on the software's own _internal_ evolution. Besides, the software is going to evolve. We aren't at release one anymore. What will happen to the software next will be ultimately constrained, in large part, by the physical realities of the hardware we support, be it Softrock III, SDR 2000, or whatever else comes next. The team has already tucked in a lot, in terms of gear, that wasn't on the original menu already. If we wait for the perfect point, not only will the software support be delayed even longer, we may never find that perfect moment to do the hardware at all (which, in any case, could have a fairly long lead time, so no time like the present if Flex decides it wants to go this way or anything like it). Larry WO0Z ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
For those folks not set up to solder surface mount, there are people on the list that will solder up boards for people (and test them). I for one will if you include a self addressed and postage paid mailer. So don't let the fact that you don't have the equipment or time or do not want to invest in a setup keep you from being in on the fun! That invitation stands for anyone on the list if you need one of Elecrafts mini kits or anything else just email me. 73 Al On 9/25/06 4:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Larry, [snip] Thought this might interest you, 73 de Joe - AB1DO It does indeed. I subscribed to the reflector for a while, but gave up because I'm just not a solder jockey (I went so far as to buy the backplane, but so far, sans parts on my end). We'll see about the enclosure part of it. It has to not only fit in the bottom of my carryon, it has to survive whatever forces can be reasonably expected to occur in a plane ride. In short, I'm looking for something to DXpedition with. It's starting to be part of my interests and I really don't particularly like leaving the SDR 1000 at home. But, I am, albeit not quite for these reasons this time. Still, my _wife_ is happy I'm doing so. She views the current box' transport as a lot of added complexity. We generally pack very tightly on trips. However, I can see myself looking for something like this. I will want service and support, too, though, so I guess that's why I put my plea in here. I have no recent experience of TAPR, so I can't say anything good or bad there. I can certainly vouch (as so many of us can) for Flex' quality of servicing what they sell. Besides, I really can almost imagine my suggestion being implemented as a replacement board for the 2 meter transverter. The existing main flex board wouldn't even have to change much (mostly, get rid of the 1/4 plugs and accept control lines from the new card instead of the parallel port) and probably the RFE and Power Amp boards not at all. DOn't know about the ATU, don't own it. But, in my setup anyway, if the PC and D/A A/D part can fit in or about the size of the existing 2m card, it would actually work for the replacement of two boards, also provided there are no noise/grounding problems passing the required signals back and forth between the cards. If. Ah, well, a guy can dream. Anyway, let me know when there's an assembled option for what you're all up to. I'll certainly consider it. But, I must confess, if there's a hope of getting the Flex version (especially, a real dream here, as a retrofit), I'm all over it. Larry WO0Z ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
[Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I agree with the issue of the complaint, but not the tone. 73, Guy K2AV. I'm sorry if my tone seems abrasive, I admit that I tend to state my opinions and point of view in few words. Tha fact is, I want to like the SDR1000 and, whilst I was using what was sold as a kit and work in progress I did give more than I have done since buying the latest unit. [etc] I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. It can be pretty dumb. Just enough to run the A/D and D/A process and not a whit more. The smarts (especially serious DSP smarts) can and should stay outboard. This is all about simplifying the delivery of the command and data bytes and the cabling of it all. If USB 2.0 is too slow (doubtful, but who knows by the time it is all data-ized and latency is considered) then let it be Firewire. Let it cease being all these cables. If there has to be a firmware burning process to go with it, so be it. Obviously, if Flex has anything of the sort on plan, I don't expect them to talk about it, especially if it will take some time to bring the plans to market. But, while we've all made our various levels of peace with the rig as it is, the 1/8 inch plugs, the occassional wiggling loose of the parallel cable, etc. all are huge liabilities and are also leading causes of the steep learning curve that generates so many notes in here. It really ought to become all software all the time and today, it just isn't. Larry WO0Z PS, this solution also makes it about 100 times more practical to take portable to, say, Aruba and Belize. That isn't the reason I'm not taking it this year, as I've explained, but after last night's scare, it certainly makes me think twice. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
Re: [Flexradio] A plea for a cable-free experience (was Re: Iambic Keyer)
At 07:48 PM 9/24/2006, Larry Loen wrote: David Ackrill wrote: Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: I've thought long and hard about this note. I believe the main issue here is simple -- while the software has improved by leaps and bounds, we have only the most modest changes to the hardware. Last night, even with all my experience, I had a major heartache. The CW was stuck on. After reseating the parallel cable maybe three times (and reseating everything else and rebooting Windows inbetween), it finally went away. Imagine my consternation with a week to go before leaving town. And, I was about 80 per cent sure of the solution at the start! The cables, their care and feeding, and the sheer complexity of remembering the 25 leading things that can go wrong as they come loose are far and away the biggest problem with owning this otherwise wonderful rig. I think many of us have forgotten how much of a problem it can be to deal with all of it. We get it going, it glitches once in a while (it does at my QTH anyway), we get really busy figuring it out. And, when we do, it goes away for a while. I know it's asking a lot, but we do need that Flex 2000 of my dreams where the sound card function is brought inboard and the entire communication takes place as data bytes over a USB cable as an ordinary PC peripheral. That is, an on-board D/A and A/D process, all run in a manner like a printer or any other PC peripheral. Whether it is a chosen sound card or a real D/A A/D pair, I don't care. Whatever meets the need. It probably means some modest CPU in there, too. So be it. I would support this.. put a Mini-ITX mobo in the package with the radio and give it an ethernet interface and I'd be a really happy camper. Maybe this is something that some decent soul will produce as a product. I'd do it tomorrow if the PowerSDR software were adequately partitionable (and if I could figure out how to netboot XP..although, a dedicated HD in the package isn't a huge problem). Heck, if there was someone else who would figure out how to make a bootable image of Linux on the embedded mobo stored on a CF that PowerSDR under XP talked to over the net, that would be fine. I've got about half of it (the Linux side, anyway), but I'm not interested in figuring out all the peculiarities and keeping up with it. As Larry points out, it would need to be a squirt new firmware to the box kind of process (that the firmware happened to be a bootable image of Linux and some software is incidental). There's a lot of nice, inexpensive, Mini-ITX form factor boards that are candidates.. It really ought to become all software all the time and today, it just isn't. Larry WO0Z PS, this solution also makes it about 100 times more practical to take portable to, say, Aruba and Belize. That isn't the reason I'm not taking it this year, as I've explained, but after last night's scare, it certainly makes me think twice. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com
