Re: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:44 -0800, Rob Dennison wrote: > However, just breaking up a monolithic program won't in and of itself > produce simplicity. In fact, done poorly it will make things much worse. > An example would forcing users to try to juggle OS priorities of a > number of communicating apps to get solid functioning What concerns me is that somebody might think, based on your remarks, that what you're warning about has anything to do with the virtual radio design that's actually emerging. I would simply stress that Rob's fears are well-founded and well-expressed in general, but completely off the mark as far as our design is concerned. I don't think they reflect any of the concepts that have been published and discussed up to this time. 73 Frank AB2KT > > ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
--- Frank Brickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The "single application" model is explicitly what we're > abandoning. > While Rob's appeal to simplicity is laudable, his > recommendations for > achieving it are more appropriate to a continuation of the > old model > rather than embracing the new one. I don't think end user simplicity and powerful end user flexibility of the new architecture need to be mutually exclusive. In the end the task of making it simple to setup, install, and use moves farther from the code itself and more into the realm of installer sophistication. Make avoiding lengthy manual setup processes a top priority in its release design. An interesting example to consider is the evolution of the Linux distros. My first stab at Linux was around 10 years ago, the installation process was not the least bit friendly, you had to really get your hands dirty to make it work at all. I ran out of patience with it before succeeding because it was just an exercise in curiosity for me at that time. And it wasn't worth the effort. Now 10 years later I downloaded Ubuntu 7.04 last spring I was very impressed with how easy it was to install and to just make work for the basics of office apps, browsing and the like. In fact I found it much quicker and easier to setup than Windows XP or Vista are. If those generic apps were all that I need or want, then I would be completely off of Windows already. But what I did find with that recent Ubuntu release is that once you get away from the baseline configuration the setup work gets real complicated in a hurry. This is where I see the new PowerSDR architecture being in its earliest stages. So the sooner the setup process for it can be streamlined the better. And the sooner it is streamlined then quicker and wider will be its adoption. Duane N9DG > > 73 > Frank > AB2KT __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
Hi Frank, Point well taken however my point is independent of how the code is partitioned... Readers of my previous notes know I'm in favor of breaking up PowerSDR. However, just breaking up a monolithic program won't in and of itself produce simplicity. In fact, done poorly it will make things much worse. An example would forcing users to try to juggle OS priorities of a number of communicating apps to get solid functioning Simplicity is the result of genius at all levels in producing a system. In particular taking all aspects of the solution including priority in to the partitioning decisions is essential. Forcing users to add programs of huge functionality to use a small bit of function eg. MixW for code generation is not simplicity. Neither is forcing users to consume extra system resources and add hardware simplicity. I know you genius are up to further refining an elegant solution - as a system. To elegance! 73's Rob AB7CF On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:22:17 -0500 Frank Brickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 07:47 -0800, Rob Dennison wrote: > > > > System bloat occurs when, in the name of minimizing code bloat, > users are > > required to add more and more programs and boxes to the computer > to > > perform functions easily done in code. System bloat is far more > > pernicious than code bloat. > > Unfortunately I think Rob's point here is somewhat tainted by an > overly-narrow view of how the radio software is developing and > where > it's headed. His general point is well taken, but it appears to be > based > on a concept of the software as a single application rather than a > virtual radio *system* for combining functions *into* an > application. > > The "single application" model is explicitly what we're abandoning. > While Rob's appeal to simplicity is laudable, his recommendations > for > achieving it are more appropriate to a continuation of the old > model > rather than embracing the new one. > > 73 > Frank > AB2KT > > > > ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 07:47 -0800, Rob Dennison wrote: > > System bloat occurs when, in the name of minimizing code bloat, users are > required to add more and more programs and boxes to the computer to > perform functions easily done in code. System bloat is far more > pernicious than code bloat. Unfortunately I think Rob's point here is somewhat tainted by an overly-narrow view of how the radio software is developing and where it's headed. His general point is well taken, but it appears to be based on a concept of the software as a single application rather than a virtual radio *system* for combining functions *into* an application. The "single application" model is explicitly what we're abandoning. While Rob's appeal to simplicity is laudable, his recommendations for achieving it are more appropriate to a continuation of the old model rather than embracing the new one. 73 Frank AB2KT ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
I'm not a technical type and trying to understand what's going on in these emails. Rob hit it on the head. Simplicity! Even though I've been a ham 58 years and love the hobby, I'm not technical but can get it done most of the time. I've had no problems with my 5000 but I haven't tried to hook up all the other things that are useful to other hams. When I installed my 5000, I did the work but had a computer guy here to monitor that I was doing it right. Appliance operators are another level of sales if it's simple. Phil Philip LaMarche LaMarche Enterprises, Inc. www.instantgourmetspices.com www.w9dvm.com 800-395-7795 pin 02 727-944-3226 FAX 727-937-8834 NASFT 30210 W9DVM -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Dennison Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:47 AM To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat Hi everyone, There is such a thing as code bloat which our wonderful programmers are genetically opposed, but also there is such a thing as system bloat which I for one am genetically opposed to. System bloat occurs when, in the name of minimizing code bloat, users are required to add more and more programs and boxes to the computer to perform functions easily done in code. System bloat is far more pernicious than code bloat. A minor example of such perniciousness is trying to generate good CW in a multitasking environment. Generating good code should only be done one place in a multitasking environment. A better example is loading yet another very large program such as MIXW just to periodically generate a single audio tone for morse code when such a function already exists in PowerSDR and lacks only an interface. Similarly tying up two I/O ports and an external keyer box to generate "mechanical" closures for keying purposes is an even worse example of system bloat via hardware. If FlexRadio is ever to succeed in the land of appliance users, it must provide elegant solutions. Simplicity is the very soul of elegance. Some times a little bit more code generates a huge amount of system simplicity. To elegance! 73's Rob AB7CF ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
[Flexradio] Code Bloat vs System Bloat
Hi everyone, There is such a thing as code bloat which our wonderful programmers are genetically opposed, but also there is such a thing as system bloat which I for one am genetically opposed to. System bloat occurs when, in the name of minimizing code bloat, users are required to add more and more programs and boxes to the computer to perform functions easily done in code. System bloat is far more pernicious than code bloat. A minor example of such perniciousness is trying to generate good CW in a multitasking environment. Generating good code should only be done one place in a multitasking environment. A better example is loading yet another very large program such as MIXW just to periodically generate a single audio tone for morse code when such a function already exists in PowerSDR and lacks only an interface. Similarly tying up two I/O ports and an external keyer box to generate "mechanical" closures for keying purposes is an even worse example of system bloat via hardware. If FlexRadio is ever to succeed in the land of appliance users, it must provide elegant solutions. Simplicity is the very soul of elegance. Some times a little bit more code generates a huge amount of system simplicity. To elegance! 73's Rob AB7CF ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
