Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread k5nwa
Most PC's built in the last 5 years can boot from a USB memory stick, 
you can get 8GB for less than $80 if you look around.

But I think it's most useful feature is that you can have an OS 
specially configured to be lean and mean for SDR use so you need not 
mess around with the built-in OS if you don't feel comfortable with 
changing it.

On one particular PC my CPU usage went from over 50% usage to less 
than 10% usage after eliminating all the MS deadwood.

At 09:58 AM 5/7/2007, you wrote:
With Sandisk technology providing 1 GB plus storage for less than 
$100, has anyone considered loading the essentials of an OS and the 
13 MB of PowerSDR onto memory chips and loose the slow and delicate 
disk drive. One would still need a PC to do the initial program 
loads to the non-volatile memory but, once done, size, power and 
durability benefits should abound. Add a miniature keyboard with 
track ball and a flat screen and it could be as small and portable 
as a laptop.
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Cecil
K5NWA
www.qrpradio.com  www.hpsdr.com

Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. 


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Larry W8ER
Whoa .. I am lost somewhere! I am not aware of a modern Microsoft OS 
that boots and runs from anything but a hard drive. I have seen Linux 
versions that will boot from a CD ROM but that's as close as I have seen 
it. PowerSDR does not yet run on Linux.

Most computers that I am aware of purposely make it impossible to boot 
from a USB device for security reasons. Let a hacker loose in a 
corporate environment with a Sans Disk and havoc would wreak if they did 
that.

It's a great idea and I am all for it but just have not seen any way to 
do it and you are quoting CPU usage figures. So the question becomes how 
do you do it?

--Larry W8ER



k5nwa wrote:
 Most PC's built in the last 5 years can boot from a USB memory stick, 
 you can get 8GB for less than $80 if you look around.

 But I think it's most useful feature is that you can have an OS 
 specially configured to be lean and mean for SDR use so you need not 
 mess around with the built-in OS if you don't feel comfortable with 
 changing it.

 On one particular PC my CPU usage went from over 50% usage to less 
 than 10% usage after eliminating all the MS deadwood.

 At 09:58 AM 5/7/2007, you wrote:
   
 With Sandisk technology providing 1 GB plus storage for less than 
 $100, has anyone considered loading the essentials of an OS and the 
 13 MB of PowerSDR onto memory chips and loose the slow and delicate 
 disk drive. One would still need a PC to do the initial program 
 loads to the non-volatile memory but, once done, size, power and 
 durability benefits should abound. Add a miniature keyboard with 
 track ball and a flat screen and it could be as small and portable 
 as a laptop.
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 Cecil
 K5NWA
 www.qrpradio.com  www.hpsdr.com

 Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. 


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread N1OFZ
What are the transfer rates on a USB stick?  I have the feeling they  
will not be very good.  However, I did some testing last year using a  
Samsung 32 GB solid state hard drive and it blew away the SATA and  
ATA/100 drives on read transfer rates and was slightly better on  
write transfer rates.  However the drive cost over $3000.

I recently looked at some 6 GB solid state drives and they ran about  
$650.  The beauty of the little 6 GB drives is that they plug  
directly into the IDE connector on the motherboard.  So to Larry's  
question, the solid state drives look to the system like a 'normal'  
IDE drive.  The solid state drives (at least the Samsung) are also  
rated for about 2,000,000 MTBF while a standard USB flash type device  
is usually around 10,000 MTBF.  I wouldn't want to be running a  
Microsoft OS on a drive with that low of a MTBF rate.

What may be interesting is a small Firewire drive (or 1st / 2nd gen  
ipod).  They are very small and can easily be unplugged and taken  
with you.

Dana  N1OFZ


On May 7, 2007, at 11:59 AM, k5nwa wrote:

 Most PC's built in the last 5 years can boot from a USB memory stick,
 you can get 8GB for less than $80 if you look around.

 But I think it's most useful feature is that you can have an OS
 specially configured to be lean and mean for SDR use so you need not
 mess around with the built-in OS if you don't feel comfortable with
 changing it.

 On one particular PC my CPU usage went from over 50% usage to less
 than 10% usage after eliminating all the MS deadwood.


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Jim Lux
At 09:23 AM 5/7/2007, Larry W8ER wrote:
Whoa .. I am lost somewhere! I am not aware of a modern Microsoft OS
that boots and runs from anything but a hard drive. I have seen Linux
versions that will boot from a CD ROM but that's as close as I have seen
it. PowerSDR does not yet run on Linux.

I haven't seen a Windows boot from USB, but I can't think of why it 
wouldn't be possible.  There are thin client versions of Windows, for 
instance, that boot over the network.

Might be interesting to look at EmbeddedXP, which seems to be quite 
popular for test equipment these days.


Most computers that I am aware of purposely make it impossible to boot
from a USB device for security reasons. Let a hacker loose in a
corporate environment with a Sans Disk and havoc would wreak if they did
that.

It's typically a BIOS function to enable/disable booting from 
USB.  In a corporate environment, they would disable the function. 
Heck, in many corporate environments, they won't even allow writing 
to a USB storage device, so the data doesn't walk out the door.



It's a great idea and I am all for it but just have not seen any way to
do it and you are quoting CPU usage figures. So the question becomes how
do you do it?

James Lux, P.E.
Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group
Flight Communications Systems Section
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena CA 91109
tel: (818)354-2075
fax: (818)393-6875 



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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Larry W8ER
See reply below:

N1OFZ wrote:
 What are the transfer rates on a USB stick?  I have the feeling they  
 will not be very good.  However, I did some testing last year using a  
 Samsung 32 GB solid state hard drive and it blew away the SATA and  
 ATA/100 drives on read transfer rates and was slightly better on  
 write transfer rates.  However the drive cost over $3000.
   
Nope Dana. A solid state disk drive that resides on an IDE interface 
looks just like an IDE drive to the system. It isn't even a close cousin 
to the USB stick drives that we are talking about! Then again neither is 
a USB hard drive (of which there are many). These device cannot be 
confused for the purpose of booting.

As to data transfer rate, the IDE interface is much faster. A solid 
state device on a USB port is slow by comparison. Your testing with a 
solid state drive connected to an IDE interface should be very fast.
 I recently looked at some 6 GB solid state drives and they ran about  
 $650.  The beauty of the little 6 GB drives is that they plug  
 directly into the IDE connector on the motherboard.  So to Larry's  
 question, the solid state drives look to the system like a 'normal'  
 IDE drive.  The solid state drives (at least the Samsung) are also  
 rated for about 2,000,000 MTBF while a standard USB flash type device  
 is usually around 10,000 MTBF.  I wouldn't want to be running a  
 Microsoft OS on a drive with that low of a MTBF rate.
   
Same reply .. not the same as a USB device or Firewire device. Again 
there are security concerns and the industry has addressed them. This is 
why it's not able to be done, that is without something being circumvented.


--Larry W8ER

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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Eric Wachsmann
What's wrong with running an SDR-1000 on a company computer?  I do it all
the time...  ;)


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 radio.biz] On Behalf Of k5nwa
 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 1:02 PM
 To: Flex Radio
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio
 
 Are you running the SDR-1000 software on a company computer? Bad boy!


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Neal Campbell K3NC
I do think its possible.

If you purchase 2 IDE adapters for flash cards, I believe you should  
be able to install windows on one and use the other for paging and  
powersdr. I am not saying I would want to do this, but I cannot see  
any limitations that would refuse it. My windows folder is 2GB and  
you can certainly buy bigger flash cards than that.

I have had USB disks interfere with WinXP booting before so I know  
that at least some bios will look there for bootable media. I think  
if you turn off legacy USB support this will not happen but again, if  
you use IDE adapters (I paid 3 bucks for mine and it plugs directly  
into the IDE channel plug on the motherboard).

Again, not sure why I would want to do this but I think its possible  
to do so.

Neal Campbell K3NC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

telnet to our DX Spotting clusters at: dxc.k3nc.com, ports 12001 and 23

Devoted to Dogs: How to be your dog's best owner
Great Dog Book  at www.abrohamneal.com



On May 7, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Larry W8ER wrote:

 See reply below:

 k5nwa wrote:
 Are you running the SDR-1000 software on a company computer? Bad boy!

 Silly question! No.
 If you plug in a USB stick then turn on the PC with a XP install disk
 in the CD ROM you have the option of installing XP on the USB stick.

 WRONG. It will not install any code into a boot sector. It will err  
 out!
 Tried it .. been there .. done that.

 snip

 ...You can also install Linux
 in a USB stick.

 Check out Puppy Linux, it's specifically made to run on a CD or a USB

 stick and it runs really fast.

 and what version of PowerSDR do I run under Puppy Linux Cecil?
 I setup an alternative profile, and turned off everything under the
 sun that was not needed, I disabled all networking services, all
 anti-virus, firewall, help, updating, remote access, and any service
 not needed for use in running the SDR-1000. It went from 50% spiking
 to 70% to less than 10% with no spikes in utilization. Because it's a
 separate profile when I boot I have a choice of picking it or the
 normal profile. XP is also using less that 64MB of RAM while in that
 configuration.

  Cecil ... how do you set up such an alternative profile under XP
 without booting XP from a hard drive first? I thought the idea was to
 boot the OS and run PowerSDR from a USB memory stick?

 I contend that you cannot boot an operating system that will run
 PowerSDR from a USB memory stick. Am I wrong?

 --Larry W8ER


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Steve
My employeer has hundreds of PC's running on compact flash memory cards with no 
hard drives and no fans.  A machine with no moving parts has many advantages in 
an enviroment that may be less then office clean and running 24/7.  There 
machines use a compact flash adapter that plugs into the IDE bus and the flash 
card plugs into it.  All machines are running Windows XP Professional.  The 
power supplies and motherboards are all fanless.  The life cycle ratings of the 
compact flash cards are much longer than the hard drives.

 
 From: Gerald Capodieci [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2007/05/07 Mon AM 09:58:32 EST
 To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
 Subject: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio
 
 With Sandisk technology providing 1 GB plus storage for less than $100, has 
 anyone considered loading the essentials of an OS and the 13 MB of PowerSDR 
 onto memory chips and loose the slow and delicate disk drive. One would still 
 need a PC to do the initial program loads to the non-volatile memory but, 
 once done, size, power and durability benefits should abound. Add a miniature 
 keyboard with track ball and a flat screen and it could be as small and 
 portable as a laptop.  
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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Matthew Zilmer
Possible, but not practical.  Flash has a limited lifetime on writes
(10k to 100k, depending on the technology).  Even if writes are
load-levelled, paging on such a storage device would drastically
shorten its lifetime over what you might expect.

Most OS's allow paging to be disabled.  This may or may not be
acceptable for your use cases / applications.  We had to go this way
for Flash-based storage used in In-Flight Entertainment applications.

Matt Zilmer
WA6EGJ

On Mon, 7 May 2007 17:06:44 -0400, you wrote:

I do think its possible.

If you purchase 2 IDE adapters for flash cards, I believe you should  
be able to install windows on one and use the other for paging and  
powersdr. I am not saying I would want to do this, but I cannot see  
any limitations that would refuse it. My windows folder is 2GB and  
you can certainly buy bigger flash cards than that.

I have had USB disks interfere with WinXP booting before so I know  
that at least some bios will look there for bootable media. I think  
if you turn off legacy USB support this will not happen but again, if  
you use IDE adapters (I paid 3 bucks for mine and it plugs directly  
into the IDE channel plug on the motherboard).

Again, not sure why I would want to do this but I think its possible  
to do so.

Neal Campbell K3NC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

telnet to our DX Spotting clusters at: dxc.k3nc.com, ports 12001 and 23

Devoted to Dogs: How to be your dog's best owner
Great Dog Book  at www.abrohamneal.com



On May 7, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Larry W8ER wrote:

 See reply below:

 k5nwa wrote:
 Are you running the SDR-1000 software on a company computer? Bad boy!

 Silly question! No.
 If you plug in a USB stick then turn on the PC with a XP install disk
 in the CD ROM you have the option of installing XP on the USB stick.

 WRONG. It will not install any code into a boot sector. It will err  
 out!
 Tried it .. been there .. done that.

 snip

 ...You can also install Linux
 in a USB stick.

 Check out Puppy Linux, it's specifically made to run on a CD or a USB

 stick and it runs really fast.

 and what version of PowerSDR do I run under Puppy Linux Cecil?
 I setup an alternative profile, and turned off everything under the
 sun that was not needed, I disabled all networking services, all
 anti-virus, firewall, help, updating, remote access, and any service
 not needed for use in running the SDR-1000. It went from 50% spiking
 to 70% to less than 10% with no spikes in utilization. Because it's a
 separate profile when I boot I have a choice of picking it or the
 normal profile. XP is also using less that 64MB of RAM while in that
 configuration.

  Cecil ... how do you set up such an alternative profile under XP
 without booting XP from a hard drive first? I thought the idea was to
 boot the OS and run PowerSDR from a USB memory stick?

 I contend that you cannot boot an operating system that will run
 PowerSDR from a USB memory stick. Am I wrong?

 --Larry W8ER


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Larry W8ER
Neal .. I think the point is being missed. USB hard disks. Not flash 
cards on IDE adapters nor solid state drives on IDE interfaces etc. I 
can't imagine how they could block booting from any IDE device 
especially one that emulates an IDE hard drive!

--Larry W8ER



Neal Campbell K3NC wrote:
 I do think its possible.

 If you purchase 2 IDE adapters for flash cards, I believe you should 
 be able to install windows on one and use the other for paging and 
 powersdr. I am not saying I would want to do this, but I cannot see 
 any limitations that would refuse it. My windows folder is 2GB and you 
 can certainly buy bigger flash cards than that.

 I have had USB disks interfere with WinXP booting before so I know 
 that at least some bios will look there for bootable media. I think if 
 you turn off legacy USB support this will not happen but again, if you 
 use IDE adapters (I paid 3 bucks for mine and it plugs directly into 
 the IDE channel plug on the motherboard).

 Again, not sure why I would want to do this but I think its possible 
 to do so.

 Neal Campbell K3NC
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 telnet to our DX Spotting clusters at: dxc.k3nc.com, ports 12001 and 23

 Devoted to Dogs: How to be your dog's best owner 
 Great Dog Book  at www.abrohamneal.com http://www.abrohamneal.com



 On May 7, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Larry W8ER wrote:

 See reply below:

 k5nwa wrote:
 Are you running the SDR-1000 software on a company computer? Bad boy!

 Silly question! No.
 If you plug in a USB stick then turn on the PC with a XP install disk 
 in the CD ROM you have the option of installing XP on the USB stick. 

 WRONG. It will not install any code into a boot sector. It will err out! 
 Tried it .. been there .. done that.

 snip

 ...You can also install Linux 
 in a USB stick.

 Check out Puppy Linux, it's specifically made to run on a CD or a USB 

 stick and it runs really fast.

 and what version of PowerSDR do I run under Puppy Linux Cecil?
 I setup an alternative profile, and turned off everything under the 
 sun that was not needed, I disabled all networking services, all 
 anti-virus, firewall, help, updating, remote access, and any service 
 not needed for use in running the SDR-1000. It went from 50% spiking 
 to 70% to less than 10% with no spikes in utilization. Because it's a 
 separate profile when I boot I have a choice of picking it or the 
 normal profile. XP is also using less that 64MB of RAM while in that 
 configuration.

  Cecil ... how do you set up such an alternative profile under XP 
 without booting XP from a hard drive first? I thought the idea was to 
 boot the OS and run PowerSDR from a USB memory stick?

 I contend that you cannot boot an operating system that will run 
 PowerSDR from a USB memory stick. Am I wrong?

 --Larry W8ER


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread John Ackermann N8UR
RAM is cheap.  Use a big RAMdisk and load it, or at least the OS 
elements that need to be on a R/W filesystem, from USB or Flash media at 
boot.

With a couple of gigs of RAM not being unreasonable today, I'd think you 
could make this work using a stripped down version of Windows something 
or other.

It's a very different application profile, but embedded systems do this 
under FreeBSD and Linux all the time, with much smaller RAM footprints 
(my Soekris net4501 NTP servers boot from a CF image and run with a 
RAMdisk of less than 32MB).

John


Larry W8ER wrote:
 Neal .. I think the point is being missed. USB hard disks. Not flash 
 cards on IDE adapters nor solid state drives on IDE interfaces etc. I 
 can't imagine how they could block booting from any IDE device 
 especially one that emulates an IDE hard drive!
 
 --Larry W8ER
 
 
 
 Neal Campbell K3NC wrote:
 I do think its possible.

 If you purchase 2 IDE adapters for flash cards, I believe you should 
 be able to install windows on one and use the other for paging and 
 powersdr. I am not saying I would want to do this, but I cannot see 
 any limitations that would refuse it. My windows folder is 2GB and you 
 can certainly buy bigger flash cards than that.

 I have had USB disks interfere with WinXP booting before so I know 
 that at least some bios will look there for bootable media. I think if 
 you turn off legacy USB support this will not happen but again, if you 
 use IDE adapters (I paid 3 bucks for mine and it plugs directly into 
 the IDE channel plug on the motherboard).

 Again, not sure why I would want to do this but I think its possible 
 to do so.

 Neal Campbell K3NC
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 telnet to our DX Spotting clusters at: dxc.k3nc.com, ports 12001 and 23

 Devoted to Dogs: How to be your dog's best owner 
 Great Dog Book  at www.abrohamneal.com http://www.abrohamneal.com



 On May 7, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Larry W8ER wrote:

 See reply below:

 k5nwa wrote:
 Are you running the SDR-1000 software on a company computer? Bad boy!

 Silly question! No.
 If you plug in a USB stick then turn on the PC with a XP install disk 
 in the CD ROM you have the option of installing XP on the USB stick. 

 WRONG. It will not install any code into a boot sector. It will err out! 
 Tried it .. been there .. done that.

 snip

 ...You can also install Linux 
 in a USB stick.
 Check out Puppy Linux, it's specifically made to run on a CD or a USB 

 stick and it runs really fast.

 and what version of PowerSDR do I run under Puppy Linux Cecil?
 I setup an alternative profile, and turned off everything under the 
 sun that was not needed, I disabled all networking services, all 
 anti-virus, firewall, help, updating, remote access, and any service 
 not needed for use in running the SDR-1000. It went from 50% spiking 
 to 70% to less than 10% with no spikes in utilization. Because it's a 
 separate profile when I boot I have a choice of picking it or the 
 normal profile. XP is also using less that 64MB of RAM while in that 
 configuration.

  Cecil ... how do you set up such an alternative profile under XP 
 without booting XP from a hard drive first? I thought the idea was to 
 boot the OS and run PowerSDR from a USB memory stick?

 I contend that you cannot boot an operating system that will run 
 PowerSDR from a USB memory stick. Am I wrong?

 --Larry W8ER


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Re: [Flexradio] Disk-less Flex Radio

2007-05-07 Thread Marty
That is why I went with an SATA II RAID zero configuration.  It made 
a big difference.  RAID zero is not for redundancy but for striping, 
so it speeds things up.

Marty
KG6QKJ


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