Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Jim Lux]

At 05:36 PM 9/15/2006, Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote:
>Would the "narrow range" encompass a listening bandwidth of say 500 Hz
>on CW?

The problem isn't that you can get a good null in 500 Hz for CW, it's 
getting a null everywhere else (to suppress the image, that is).

And, don't forget that in spur reduction mode, the DDS goes in fairly 
large steps, with the "fine tuning" occuring in the software 
downconversion.  So, the actual audio frequency out of the hardware varies.

If you were interested in nulling a specific troublesome interferer 
on the image at a fixed frequency, then it would work fine.


>-- Guy
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Eric Wachsmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'Lee A Crocker'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Flexradio'"
>
>Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:47 AM
>Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
>
>
> > 83dB is probably about as good as the automatic routine will get.
> > You can
> > do a bit better (~100dB) by adjusting the up/down controls manually
> > with the
> > display in AVG mode.  Note that the 100dB of rejection is only for a
> > very
> > narrow range of audio frequencies though.  So getting 100dB (vs
> > 80dB)
> > probably isn't going to help you much practically speaking.
> >
> >
> > Eric Wachsmann
> > FlexRadio Systems

Jim, W6RMK 



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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Guy Olinger, K2AV]

Would the "narrow range" encompass a listening bandwidth of say 500 Hz 
on CW?

-- Guy

- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Wachsmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Lee A Crocker'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Flexradio'" 

Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.


> 83dB is probably about as good as the automatic routine will get. 
> You can
> do a bit better (~100dB) by adjusting the up/down controls manually 
> with the
> display in AVG mode.  Note that the 100dB of rejection is only for a 
> very
> narrow range of audio frequencies though.  So getting 100dB (vs 
> 80dB)
> probably isn't going to help you much practically speaking.
>
>
> Eric Wachsmann
> FlexRadio Systems
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> radio.biz] On Behalf Of Lee A Crocker
>> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 8:38 AM
>> To: Flexradio
>> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
>>
>> What is the ultimate image null obtainable?  I was
>> experimenting with this recently and the best I could
>> do with the image 24khz above the fundamental was 83
>> db down using the automatic cal mode.
>>
>> 73  W9OY
>>
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>
>
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> 




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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Jim Lux]

At 06:37 AM 9/15/2006, Lee A Crocker wrote:
>What is the ultimate image null obtainable?  I was
>experimenting with this recently and the best I could
>do with the image 24khz above the fundamental was 83
>db down using the automatic cal mode.

83 dB is quite impressive.

The challenge is not so much in nulling at one specific frequency 
configuration(one DDS frequency + one audio frequency), which is 
probably mostly determined by the sampling jitter and phase noise of 
the various oscillators in the process, including the transmitted source.

That is, say you had captured a set of data, containing the desired 
signal and an image. You could find a mathematical sine wave that 
would match the image, and then subtract it.  The problem is that the 
image signal itself isn't actually perfect sine, so there's some 
residual power that you just can't cancel.

However, the real challenge is in rejecting the image over a wideband 
(either audio or RF).  I think I've convinced myself that on the DDS 
LO side of the QSD, the mismatch between the two low pass filters is 
small enough that you probably only need one RF frequency cal point 
in each ham band (if not even fewer). 
http://home.earthlink.net/~w6rmk/sdr1000/ddsfilter.pdf has some 
analysis and thoughts on this.


The bigger challenge is the match between I/Q channels in the audio 
chain.  The bandwidth over which phase match must be consistent is 
much larger (many decades).  The current PowerSDR software does a 
single frequency point cal in the audio band.  The two 
instrumentation amps are probably fairly well matched, and the low 
pass filter that's part of the QSD is only a single pole, with cutoff 
well above the frequencies of interest (500kHz or so, in the original 
SDR1000), so whatever relative phase shift there is between the 
channels can be expected to be fairly consistent. It's the inside of 
the audio interface to the PC that I'd have questions about.


>
>
>73  W9OY
>
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James Lux, P.E.
Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group
Flight Communications Systems Section
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena CA 91109
tel: (818)354-2075
fax: (818)393-6875 



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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Eric Wachsmann]

83dB is probably about as good as the automatic routine will get.  You can
do a bit better (~100dB) by adjusting the up/down controls manually with the
display in AVG mode.  Note that the 100dB of rejection is only for a very
narrow range of audio frequencies though.  So getting 100dB (vs 80dB)
probably isn't going to help you much practically speaking.


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> radio.biz] On Behalf Of Lee A Crocker
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 8:38 AM
> To: Flexradio
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> 
> What is the ultimate image null obtainable?  I was
> experimenting with this recently and the best I could
> do with the image 24khz above the fundamental was 83
> db down using the automatic cal mode.
> 
> 73  W9OY
> 
> __
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Lee A Crocker]

What is the ultimate image null obtainable?  I was
experimenting with this recently and the best I could
do with the image 24khz above the fundamental was 83
db down using the automatic cal mode.  

73  W9OY

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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[K8MLM]

 
I simply used my back-up station transceiver (FT-1000) into the dummy  load 
with the drive cut all the way back.  I also disconnected the antenna  from the 
SDR 1000.  It provided a nice strong stable signal for  calibration.
 
Bob
K8MLM
 
In a message dated 9/14/2006 6:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Build a  simple crystal or LC oscillator fom the ARRL handbook.

Tom  Thompson   W0IVJ

Jim Lux wrote:

>At 12:02 PM  9/14/2006, Tim Ellison wrote:
>  
>
>> Eric  said:
>>No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal  than -73dBm when
>>doing the image  calibration.
>>
>>So anyone have a good recommendation for a  stable signal generator that
>>won't break the  bank?
>>
>>
>
>I assume the  Elecraft unit has a pad to get the level down to sub 
>nanowatt  levels?  Why not remove or change the pads.
>
>There are a  fair number of inexpensive quiet oscillators out 
>there.  If you  aren't concerned about frequency accuracy, then any of 
>the inexpensive  low jitter clock oscillator modules would work.  You 
>can follow  it with a pad, a LC BPF, and a pad.  Minicircuits sells  
>inexpensive IF filters for, e.g. 10.7 MHz, and they do quite nicely  
>for removing harmonics from a 10MHz source.
>
>If you want  good frequency accuracy, low phase noise, and a bunch of 
>power, what  about a 10 MHz OCXO from someone like Wenzel or surplus 
>HP/Agilent  unit.
>
>
>
>
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>
>   
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Tom Thompson]

Build a simple crystal or LC oscillator fom the ARRL handbook.

Tom Thompson   W0IVJ

Jim Lux wrote:

>At 12:02 PM 9/14/2006, Tim Ellison wrote:
>  
>
>> Eric said:
>>No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
>>doing the image calibration.
>>
>>So anyone have a good recommendation for a stable signal generator that
>>won't break the bank?
>>
>>
>
>I assume the Elecraft unit has a pad to get the level down to sub 
>nanowatt levels?  Why not remove or change the pads.
>
>There are a fair number of inexpensive quiet oscillators out 
>there.  If you aren't concerned about frequency accuracy, then any of 
>the inexpensive low jitter clock oscillator modules would work.  You 
>can follow it with a pad, a LC BPF, and a pad.  Minicircuits sells 
>inexpensive IF filters for, e.g. 10.7 MHz, and they do quite nicely 
>for removing harmonics from a 10MHz source.
>
>If you want good frequency accuracy, low phase noise, and a bunch of 
>power, what about a 10 MHz OCXO from someone like Wenzel or surplus 
>HP/Agilent unit.
>
>
>
>
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>
>  
>
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Cecilio Bayona]

Tim Ellison wrote:
>  Eric said:
> No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
> doing the image calibration.  
> 
> So anyone have a good recommendation for a stable signal generator that
> won't break the bank?
> 
> -Tim
> ---
> Integrated Technical Services 
> 
> "Too much of everything is just enough."
> -Rob Barlow
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Wachsmann
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 2:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> 
> No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
> doing the image calibration.  Considering that the noise floor is going
> to be around -130dBm, this only gives you a range of about 60dB for a
> best case null (because it becomes difficult to null below the noise
> floor).  Using a stronger input signal gives a larger image and thus the
> calibration can more effectively null the signal further (typically all
> the way into the noise floor).
> 
> 
> Eric Wachsmann
> FlexRadio Systems
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>> radio.biz] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:38 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; flexradio@flex-radio.biz
>> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
>>
>> I'm guessing this is a typo and possibly was meant to say 50uV of 
>> which the XG-1/XG-2 is capable (i.e. -73dBm, as you state).  I've used
> 
>> my XG-1 to do this calibration and had assumed the signal level (at 
>> S9) was adequate.  What say, Eric?
>>
>> Pete, N3EVL
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van de Velde 
>>> Eddy
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:49 PM
>>> To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
>>> Subject: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
>>>
>>> The maximum output of the Elacraft XG-2 is -73 dBm. The manual of 
>>> the SDR-1000 requests a signal of -50 dBm for the Automatic 
>>> calibration of the Image Null.
>>>
>>> Is the -73 dBm of the XG-2 insufficient for a reliable I mage Null 
>>> Calibration ?
>>>
>>> 73 Eddy ON5UQ.
>>> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
>>

Use your XG-1 for frequency calibration, but use a transmitter into a 
dummy load for image rejection calibration.
-- 

Cecil
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com www.hpsdr.com


"Sacred Cows make the best Hamburger!"  Don Seglio Batuna


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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Jim Lux]

At 12:02 PM 9/14/2006, Tim Ellison wrote:
>  Eric said:
>No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
>doing the image calibration.
>
>So anyone have a good recommendation for a stable signal generator that
>won't break the bank?

I assume the Elecraft unit has a pad to get the level down to sub 
nanowatt levels?  Why not remove or change the pads.

There are a fair number of inexpensive quiet oscillators out 
there.  If you aren't concerned about frequency accuracy, then any of 
the inexpensive low jitter clock oscillator modules would work.  You 
can follow it with a pad, a LC BPF, and a pad.  Minicircuits sells 
inexpensive IF filters for, e.g. 10.7 MHz, and they do quite nicely 
for removing harmonics from a 10MHz source.

If you want good frequency accuracy, low phase noise, and a bunch of 
power, what about a 10 MHz OCXO from someone like Wenzel or surplus 
HP/Agilent unit.




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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Ahti Aintila]

On 14/09/06, Tim Ellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So anyone have a good recommendation for a stable signal generator that
> won't break the bank?
>
> -Tim

Tim,

Why not use  Analog Devices evaluation board for AD9952
? Does
USD250.00 break the bank?

73, Ahti OH2RZ
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Tim Ellison]

 Eric said:
No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
doing the image calibration.  

So anyone have a good recommendation for a stable signal generator that
won't break the bank?

-Tim
---
Integrated Technical Services 

"Too much of everything is just enough."
-Rob Barlow

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Wachsmann
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 2:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when
doing the image calibration.  Considering that the noise floor is going
to be around -130dBm, this only gives you a range of about 60dB for a
best case null (because it becomes difficult to null below the noise
floor).  Using a stronger input signal gives a larger image and thus the
calibration can more effectively null the signal further (typically all
the way into the noise floor).


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> radio.biz] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> 
> I'm guessing this is a typo and possibly was meant to say 50uV of 
> which the XG-1/XG-2 is capable (i.e. -73dBm, as you state).  I've used

> my XG-1 to do this calibration and had assumed the signal level (at 
> S9) was adequate.  What say, Eric?
> 
> Pete, N3EVL
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van de Velde 
> > Eddy
> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:49 PM
> > To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> > Subject: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> >
> > The maximum output of the Elacraft XG-2 is -73 dBm. The manual of 
> > the SDR-1000 requests a signal of -50 dBm for the Automatic 
> > calibration of the Image Null.
> >
> > Is the -73 dBm of the XG-2 insufficient for a reliable I mage Null 
> > Calibration ?
> >
> > 73 Eddy ON5UQ.
> > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
> > scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > /pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20060914/eddcc
> > 9ff/attachment.html
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Eric Wachsmann]

No typo here.  It is useful to have a stronger signal than -73dBm when doing
the image calibration.  Considering that the noise floor is going to be
around -130dBm, this only gives you a range of about 60dB for a best case
null (because it becomes difficult to null below the noise floor).  Using a
stronger input signal gives a larger image and thus the calibration can more
effectively null the signal further (typically all the way into the noise
floor).


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> radio.biz] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> 
> I'm guessing this is a typo and possibly was meant to say 50uV of which
> the XG-1/XG-2 is capable (i.e. -73dBm, as you state).  I've used my XG-1
> to do this calibration and had assumed the signal level (at S9) was
> adequate.  What say, Eric?
> 
> Pete, N3EVL
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van de
> > Velde Eddy
> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:49 PM
> > To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> > Subject: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> >
> > The maximum output of the Elacraft XG-2 is -73 dBm. The
> > manual of the SDR-1000 requests a signal of -50 dBm for the
> > Automatic calibration of the Image Null.
> >
> > Is the -73 dBm of the XG-2 insufficient for a reliable I mage
> > Null Calibration ?
> >
> > 73 Eddy ON5UQ.
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > /pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20060914/eddcc
> > 9ff/attachment.html
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Re: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.

[Thompson_Peter]

I'm guessing this is a typo and possibly was meant to say 50uV of which
the XG-1/XG-2 is capable (i.e. -73dBm, as you state).  I've used my XG-1
to do this calibration and had assumed the signal level (at S9) was
adequate.  What say, Eric?

Pete, N3EVL
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van de 
> Velde Eddy
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:49 PM
> To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: [Flexradio] Image Null Calibration.
> 
> The maximum output of the Elacraft XG-2 is -73 dBm. The 
> manual of the SDR-1000 requests a signal of -50 dBm for the 
> Automatic calibration of the Image Null. 
> 
> Is the -73 dBm of the XG-2 insufficient for a reliable I mage 
> Null Calibration ?
> 
> 73 Eddy ON5UQ.
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