[Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Roberto Inzerillo
C'è qualcuno che vuole contribuire a migliorare gli scenari del territorio
italiano? Io mi stò divertendo con FGSD, i risultati li potete vedere
all'indirizzo http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html .

Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over italian
territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html

Roberto


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Frederic Bouvier
Quoting Roberto Inzerillo :

> C'è qualcuno che vuole contribuire a migliorare gli scenari del territorio
> italiano? Io mi stò divertendo con FGSD, i risultati li potete vedere
> all'indirizzo http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html .
>
> Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over italian
> territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
> FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
> http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html

This is very impressive.

-Fred

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Roberto Inzerillo
> Von: Frederic Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over
> > italian
> > territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
> > FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
> > http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html
> 
> This is very impressive.
> 
> -Fred

Fred is always very nice :-)  Thx
 Roberto

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Frederic Bouvier

Roberto Inzerillo wrote :


Von: Frederic Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   


Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over
italian
territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html
 


This is very impressive.

-Fred
   



Fred is always very nice :-)  Thx
Roberto
 



No kidding, you are the first to show a convincing scenery enhancement 
without using photo-scenery.

Generic textures are not dead ;-)

-Fred



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Gerard ROBIN
Le mercredi 25 mai 2005 à 20:56 +0200, Roberto Inzerillo a écrit :
> > Von: Frederic Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over
> > > italian
> > > territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
> > > FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html
> > 
  Wonderfull.
  You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
  because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
program.
  It is a long time ago i wondered to make sceneries of France in
Provence.  

-- 
Gerard


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Frederic Bouvier

Gerard ROBIN a écrit :


Le mercredi 25 mai 2005 à 20:56 +0200, Roberto Inzerillo a écrit :
 


Von: Frederic Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 


Anyone wants to help bringing a new feeling to visual flights over
italian
territory? I am having fun building the scenery around my town with
FlightGear Scenery Designer; the results can be seen at
http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html
   


 Wonderfull.
 You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
 because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
program.
 It is a long time ago i wondered to make sceneries of France in
Provence.  

 



It is tricky but doable. Look at the release notes of version 0.3.0 on 
sourceforge ( click on the version in the file page )

BTW : Martin contributed an IRIX build

-Fred



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Gerard ROBIN
Le mercredi 25 mai 2005 à 23:31 +0200, Frederic Bouvier a écrit :

> >
> >  
> >
> 
> It is tricky but doable. Look at the release notes of version 0.3.0 on 
> sourceforge ( click on the version in the file page )
> BTW : Martin contributed an IRIX build
> 
> -Fred
> 
> 
> 
OK 
i tried  it without success (both 2.3 and 3.)
I have errors during compilation.
But we are on "fgfs-devel  mailing" and it is not the good
media to discuss about FGSD difficulties.
> 
-- 
Gerard


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Martin Spott
Gerard ROBIN wrote:

>   You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
>   because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
>   program.

Try the current release. It even compiles on IRIX (with a bit of
tweaking) so you should not get into big trouble on Linux,

Martin.
-- 
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--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Robicd



Gerard ROBIN ha scritto:

http://www.geocities.com/robitabu/fgfs_pa/fgsd_palermo.html



Wonderfull.
You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
program.


That's right. But I don't like it very much. I'm just to lazy to compile 
all that stuff (FGFS + FGSD + Related libs) under Linux.




It is a long time ago i wondered to make sceneries of France in
Provence.  


You will need some time :-) But it pays.


Roberto





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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-25 Thread Robicd

Frederic Bouvier ha scritto:

Roberto Inzerillo wrote :

Fred is always very nice :-)  Thx
Roberto


No kidding, you are the first to show a convincing scenery enhancement 
without using photo-scenery.

Generic textures are not dead ;-)


Well, of course I choose to start with default textures but I'm not 
happy with that as you are. Those pictures you've seen are taken far 
distant from the coast line; you don't get the same good impression when 
you fly right on top of the city.


Anyway, I think that basic scenery for Italy is very low quality, it's 
based on very low resolution data sets, roads are very approximate, land 
usage is not coherent with today real status. I guess this problem is 
related to almost every country outside USA.


That's why, after having some fun with 3d modelling (i did some building 
and I'm currently concentrating on a few historical buildings of my town 
... that's really very fun :-) I did come to spend some time with 
terrain modelling. I thought having a good terrain data set was to be 
done _before_ inserting any 3d object.


Now I'm almost done with my town, I will upload the modified scenery 
files and some tips on importing that into the base fgfs data tree 
(there are many people who just want to know which file they need and 
where to copy, without warring about the details, so I'll try to be 
simple and clear with that).


Photo-scenery are still what I'd love to have, I hope FGSD will have the 
right tools for that in a near future. I like fgsd (with all it's 
imperfections) and it looks like it's development is taking new 
directions (as you can read in the FGSD CVS mailing list). We'll see :-)



Roberto





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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Chris Metzler
On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:01:52 +0200
Frederic Bouvier wrote:
>
> 
> No kidding, you are the first to show a convincing scenery enhancement 
> without using photo-scenery.
> Generic textures are not dead ;-)

At one point, I used fgsd to do what I thought was some nice work in the
Washington, D.C. area as preparatory to laying out ground structures I
had done or was going to do.  The course of the Potomac River is about
500m from its correct location in the FG scenery as is, so I fixed that,
changed material settings for various ground triangles, made some "inlet"
areas that didn't exist in the FG scenery, etc.  It looked nice, I thought.
And KDCA no longer sat on a table that hovered out in the middle of
nowhere like it previously did (and does now).

Then a new version of the FG scenery came out, and one of its big
advantages was a fix to a bug which occasionally produced sharp steps
in ground elevation where the ground should slope more smoothly.  This
was significant because this bug had made the main runway at KDCA
unusable because of a sharp step in the middle.  I went with the new
scenery, getting full access to the runway; but I lost the terrain
changes I'd done with fgsd in the process.  I haven't re-done them
since, out of fear that I'd either have to throw them out again with
the next FG scenery set, OR would keep them and at the very least have
odd artifacts around the tile edges where one transitions from old
scenery tile to the new stuff (and of course miss out on any improvements
to the scenery generation algorithms that would have impacted the
tile(s) in question).

I think fgsd is cool, and I really enjoy playing with it; but if I
had the infinite amount of free time all of us wish we had, I'd work
on TerraGear drawing its info from some kind of GIS, and implementing
some way (in fgsd and/or other tools) to update that info, so that
"fixes" to the terrain could propagate upstream and be included in
future scenery builds, removing the need to fix the terrain over and
over and over.  I know, I know, we've all talked about this before,
and pretty much everyone thinks its a good idea, and no one has the
time.  I really really wish I did.

-c

-- 
Chris Metzler   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(remove "snip-me." to email)

"As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I
have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:

> BTW : Martin contributed an IRIX build

Well, this was made possible by _your_ switch from GTS to GCAL - I
never managed to build GTS on IRIX 

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Oliver C.
On Wednesday 25 May 2005 23:31, Frederic Bouvier wrote:
> Gerard ROBIN a écrit :
> >  Wonderfull.
> >  You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
> >  because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
> >program.
> >  It is a long time ago i wondered to make sceneries of France in
> >Provence.
>
> It is tricky but doable. Look at the release notes of version 0.3.0 on
> sourceforge ( click on the version in the file page )
> BTW : Martin contributed an IRIX build
>
> -Fred

What about offering static binary builds of FGSD for linux with everything 
included?
This might increase the package size but is very easy to use.

Best Regards,
 Oliver C.

 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"Oliver C." wrote:

> What about offering static binary builds of FGSD for linux with everything 
> included?

I'll go and get one until weekend,

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

> I'll go and get one until weekend,

Aaah, don't bet on that. I managed to built all prerequisites but now I
get an "internal compiler error" when compiling FGSD sources - and I
don't have a different platform/compiler available  :-/

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Gerard ROBIN



















Le jeudi 26 mai 2005 à 18:56 +, Martin Spott a écrit : 
> Martin Spott wrote:
> 
> > I'll go and get one until weekend,
> 
> Aaah, don't bet on that. I managed to built all prerequisites but now I
> get an "internal compiler error" when compiling FGSD sources - and I
> don't have a different platform/compiler available  :-/
> 
> Martin.


  So i do:

I tried again and again, 
I have send a message to fgsd-devel mailing list about compilation
errors. 
Waiting for an answer if anybody on that side knows Linux.

-- 
Gerard
-- 
Gerard


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread AJ MacLeod (email lists)
On Thursday 26 May 2005 19:56, Martin Spott wrote:

> Aaah, don't bet on that. I managed to built all prerequisites but now I
> get an "internal compiler error" when compiling FGSD sources - and I
> don't have a different platform/compiler available  :-/

This stopped me too.  After fiddling with it for ages, I finally gave in and 
read the README.  Quoted directly...

"First, the bad news : g++ v3.3.x is unable to compile fgsd correctly. It 
produces internal Compiler Errors"

Bah.  Whoever reads these things first, anyway? :-)

I also tried the win32 version under WINE which works without crashing, but is 
unusable due to some problem with the "ordering" of layers in the interface, 
the green background covers everything.

AJ

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"AJ MacLeod (email lists)" wrote:

> This stopped me too.  After fiddling with it for ages, I finally gave in and 
> read the README.  Quoted directly...
> 
> "First, the bad news : g++ v3.3.x is unable to compile fgsd correctly. It 
> produces internal Compiler Errors"
> 
> Bah.  Whoever reads these things first, anyway? :-)

Well, I did - for the CGAL part, but I didn't remember the GCC stuff
because my first attempt was with a MIPSpro compiler on IRIX,

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-26 Thread Frederic Bouvier

Oliver C. a écrit :


On Wednesday 25 May 2005 23:31, Frederic Bouvier wrote:
 


Gerard ROBIN a écrit :
   


Wonderfull.
You where using FGSD, does it mean you are working on windows.
because on the linux side i could never make a compilation of that
program.
It is a long time ago i wondered to make sceneries of France in
Provence.
 


It is tricky but doable. Look at the release notes of version 0.3.0 on
sourceforge ( click on the version in the file page )
BTW : Martin contributed an IRIX build

-Fred
   



What about offering static binary builds of FGSD for linux with everything 
included?

This might increase the package size but is very easy to use.
 



I found that there are more dynamic libraries under Linux than under 
Windows, and that they are distribution dependant.
If you can compile something statically, I am ready to put it on 
sourceforge for download.


-Fred



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-27 Thread Robicd

Chris Metzler ha scritto:

At one point, I used fgsd to do what I thought was some nice work in the
Washington, D.C. area as preparatory to laying out ground structures I
had done or was going to do.  The course of the Potomac River is about
500m from its correct location in the FG scenery as is, so I fixed that,
changed material settings for various ground triangles, made some "inlet"
areas that didn't exist in the FG scenery, etc.  It looked nice, I thought.
And KDCA no longer sat on a table that hovered out in the middle of
nowhere like it previously did (and does now).

>

Then a new version of the FG scenery came out, and one of its big
advantages was a fix to a bug which occasionally produced sharp steps
in ground elevation where the ground should slope more smoothly.  This
was significant because this bug had made the main runway at KDCA
unusable because of a sharp step in the middle.  I went with the new
scenery, getting full access to the runway; but I lost the terrain
changes I'd done with fgsd in the process.  I haven't re-done them
since, out of fear that I'd either have to throw them out again with
the next FG scenery set, OR would keep them and at the very least have
odd artifacts around the tile edges where one transitions from old
scenery tile to the new stuff (and of course miss out on any improvements
to the scenery generation algorithms that would have impacted the
tile(s) in question).

I think fgsd is cool, and I really enjoy playing with it; but if I
had the infinite amount of free time all of us wish we had, I'd work
on TerraGear drawing its info from some kind of GIS, and implementing
some way (in fgsd and/or other tools) to update that info, so that
"fixes" to the terrain could propagate upstream and be included in
future scenery builds, removing the need to fix the terrain over and
over and over.  I know, I know, we've all talked about this before,
and pretty much everyone thinks its a good idea, and no one has the
time.  I really really wish I did.


You know what? You are right. The problems coming out from working with 
FGSD on scenery tiles instead of with some kind of primitives data set 
(which should be preprocessed) are obvious but I wish people don't stop 
just because of that.


I still prefer having a working and beautiful scenery _now_ then waiting 
for an immaginary scenery in the future. I don't think there will be 
that great improvement in global scenery development in the near future 
without some kind of a users' personal involvement in the process. This 
is true with commercial Flight Simulators too (look at what people do 
around the world with MSFS sceneries personalizations, they really rock!).


As I look at that I notice there are many things to be done in FGFS when 
thinking about scenery structures. First of all, I don't think that 
roads/ground/lakes/railroads/etc... should share the same surface mesh. 
This is nonesense. They are very different in the real world, they don't 
share much of their properties (geometrical and visual ones) and should 
be simulated with appropriate methods instead of a homogeneous one like now.
I know, the way FGFS terrain file format works now is simple and works 
good, but imposes to scenery developers a great amount of limitations 
and compromises. I'd like to have a tool which could modify ground 
surfaces without touching the roads and the railroads (which could be 
adjusted, if needed, in a future time and by other hands). And what 
about terrain usage borders (urban, ocean, crop etc...), which, by now, 
have to coincide with mesh's triangle borders? It's a limitation and 
should not be. The terrain mesh should descript the geometry of the 
terrain (altitudes, borders, coast lines); textures are then used to 
'paint' something over the mesh, I don't see any need to limit the 
borders of those textures to the same borders of the meshes. I see in my 
imagination a terrain simulation where these and other details are not 
stuck together with a rigid terrain description system like the one FGFS 
is using now.


But now, FGFS works in this way. The terrain has a file format which can 
be easily modified with FGSD and the only chance a simple user like me 
has to fully enjoy the simulation is to make full use of it's potentials 
_now_. You know what? I like the Palermo scenery now that I hacked it 
:-) I really didn't before that :-(
I hope many other people will walk this way, maybe in the future there 
will be so many personalized scenery around the world (it's just a 
supposition) that an evolution of the terrain file format should take 
into account a good tool for converting old ones without loosing those 
users' improvements or should consider some kind of backwards compatible 
terrain parser.


Anyway, I think the best way is to develop a new set of world elements 
description. The roads, the terrain boundaries, the terrain textures 
need a very deep restyling in order to attract users around the world. I 
am shure th

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-27 Thread Martin Spott
Robicd wrote:

> Anyway, I think the best way is to develop a new set of world elements 
> description. The roads, the terrain boundaries, the terrain textures 
> need a very deep restyling in order to attract users around the world. I 
> am shure that just like Airplane's 3d models, the terrain simulation 
> should involve users around the world, and they need a good and easy 
> approach in doing that in order to be effective.

Well, you know, the participant(s) of the process that leads us to this
achievement _is_ aware of this fact, you won't make him work harder on
that topic by simply rephrasing what's already been said  ;-))

The main bottleneck is the lack of manpower. Frederic is almost the
single maintainger of FGSD. He does the design logic, the
implementation, bug fixing, everything. I bet you'll get a better FGSD
sooner if you let him share the work that's to be done. For example try
to think of what sort of graphic primitives are actually necessary to
describe a realistic terrain layout, think of the pros and cons of
every one of these primitives, which attributes we need to store for
such a primitive and so on.
Probably try to create sort of a sample implementation of such a
primitive.

Cheers,
Martin.
P.S.: X-posted to the fgsd-devel list.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-27 Thread Oliver C.
On Thursday 26 May 2005 23:21, Frederic Bouvier wrote:
>
> I found that there are more dynamic libraries under Linux than under
> Windows, and that they are distribution dependant.
> If you can compile something statically, I am ready to put it on
> sourceforge for download.
>
> -Fred
>

Ok, i tried first to compile a normal none static version, but i had the 
following problems.

First, installing CGAL systemwide is a nightmare, so i decided against it to 
do that.
I circumvented it by unpacking cgal in my home directory.
Then i run "install_cgal -i" and built the CGAL Libraries.
After that, i quit the installer and tried
to install FGSD (CVS version) by using the following command
./configure --with-cgal=/home/oliver/CGAL-3.1 && make

Then i had an error message relating CGAL and the file "compiler_config.h".
I fixed it by creating a directory called CGAL in my fgsd directory.
In this CGAL directory i created a symlink to 
/home/oliver/CGAL-3.1/include/CGAL/config/i686_Linux-2.4.27_g++-3.3.4/CGAL/compiler_config.h
 

This solved it, i know this is a cheap hack, but it worked for me. :)


After that i went back to compile fgsd.
But now i get the following compiler error:

make[2]: Entering directory `/home/oliver/x/src/cvs/fgsd/src'
if g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I. -I..   -I/usr/X11R6/include 
-I/home/oliver/CGAL-3.1/include -I/home/oliver/CGAL-3.1/include/CGAL/config/ 
-DDRAW_WITH_TEXTURES -g -O2 -MT triobject.o -MD -MP -MF ".deps/triobject.Tpo" 
-c -o triobject.o triobject.cpp; \
then mv -f ".deps/triobject.Tpo" ".deps/triobject.Po"; else rm -f 
".deps/triobject.Tpo"; exit 1; fi
triobject.cpp: In member function `bool FGSD_TriangleObject::saveObject(const
   std::string&, const char*, unsigned int)':
triobject.cpp:1422: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
Please submit a full bug report,
with preprocessed source if appropriate.
See http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html> for instructions.
make[2]: *** [triobject.o] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/oliver/x/src/cvs/fgsd/src'
make[1]: *** [all] Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/oliver/x/src/cvs/fgsd/src'
make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1

The used gcc version is  3.3.4.


Best Regards,
 Oliver C.







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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-27 Thread AJ MacLeod (email lists)
On Friday 27 May 2005 21:01, Oliver C. wrote:

> First, installing CGAL systemwide is a nightmare, so i decided against it
> to do that.
Probably wisely.  At least, I did the same...

> After that i went back to compile fgsd.
> But now i get the following compiler error:
> The used gcc version is  3.3.4.

If you'd read the README you'd have seen a note to that effect; apparently 3.2 
and 3.4 are OK, but 3.3 produce this error.

No, I didn't read the README either, until after I'd found this out the hard 
way!

Cheers,

AJ

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-27 Thread Oliver C.
On Saturday 28 May 2005 00:18, AJ MacLeod (email lists) wrote:
>
> If you'd read the README you'd have seen a note to that effect; apparently
> 3.2 and 3.4 are OK, but 3.3 produce this error.
>
> No, I didn't read the README either, until after I'd found this out the
> hard way!

Thank you for the info.

Now i hope, that someone else can create such a static binary FGSD release,
because I won't update my gcc version soon, because this is a big task
and i do that only when i upgrade to the next version of my Linux distribution 
(in this case Slackware).


Best Regards,
 Oliver C.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Anyone likes helping with italian scenery?

2005-05-28 Thread Frederic Bouvier

Oliver C. a écrit :


On Saturday 28 May 2005 00:18, AJ MacLeod (email lists) wrote:
 


If you'd read the README you'd have seen a note to that effect; apparently
3.2 and 3.4 are OK, but 3.3 produce this error.

No, I didn't read the README either, until after I'd found this out the
hard way!
   



Thank you for the info.

Now i hope, that someone else can create such a static binary FGSD release,
because I won't update my gcc version soon, because this is a big task
and i do that only when i upgrade to the next version of my Linux distribution 
(in this case Slackware).
 



My Linux distribution ( Debian ) has packages for either gcc-3.2 and 
gcc-3.4 although the default compiler is gcc 3.3.

No need to go the hard way here.

-Fred



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