Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
Well, if you introduce skeletal animation, I'd add: things flex (wings on a glider, but also the arms of a pilot) things scale and morph (drag chutes. Morph targets might work better?) and perhaps in the future, things link two objects with a flexible chain, like the aerotow. but that is wishful thinking > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 08:46:37 +1200 > From: chr...@ijw.co.nz > To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3 > > It would be interesting to use skeletal animation to get rid of some > of the batch spam with complex multipart models. It wouldn't even > necessarily require reworking the model data -- we could initially do > the merge and bone attachment when a model is loaded. > > What are the animation cases? So far I have: > > - Things move or rotate > - Things get removed completely > > Both of these are representable easily in a matrix palette (removal via w=0); > > Anything else? > > -- Chris > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Renk Thorsten wrote: > >> This doesn't happen when you click on another slider or when we start > >> at 1. Should be something specific to landmass. > > > > Tenuous, but: > > > > Terrain and models are sent to the same shader code (terrain-haze.*) by the > > effect file technique 5. To switch the detailed terrain rendering on, I > > used the landmass slider (since I remember snow first being available under > > landmass) - so that decides if terrain and models use the same or different > > shaders - if quality is 4, then terrain-haze-detaild.* is used for terrain > > but still terrain-haze.* by models (which shouldn't get snow, are not large > > enough for structured fog and might be dust-free). That makes the landmass > > slider special. > > > > What I don't understand is why this should fail specifically for models and > > work for terrain and why it should fail specifically at startup but not > > when you touch the slider. > > > > * Thorsten > > -- > > Live Security Virtual Conference > > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > > ___ > > Flightgear-devel mailing list > > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
It would be interesting to use skeletal animation to get rid of some of the batch spam with complex multipart models. It wouldn't even necessarily require reworking the model data -- we could initially do the merge and bone attachment when a model is loaded. What are the animation cases? So far I have: - Things move or rotate - Things get removed completely Both of these are representable easily in a matrix palette (removal via w=0); Anything else? -- Chris On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Renk Thorsten wrote: >> This doesn't happen when you click on another slider or when we start >> at 1. Should be something specific to landmass. > > Tenuous, but: > > Terrain and models are sent to the same shader code (terrain-haze.*) by the > effect file technique 5. To switch the detailed terrain rendering on, I used > the landmass slider (since I remember snow first being available under > landmass) - so that decides if terrain and models use the same or different > shaders - if quality is 4, then terrain-haze-detaild.* is used for terrain > but still terrain-haze.* by models (which shouldn't get snow, are not large > enough for structured fog and might be dust-free). That makes the landmass > slider special. > > What I don't understand is why this should fail specifically for models and > work for terrain and why it should fail specifically at startup but not when > you touch the slider. > > * Thorsten > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> This doesn't happen when you click on another slider or when we start > at 1. Should be something specific to landmass. Tenuous, but: Terrain and models are sent to the same shader code (terrain-haze.*) by the effect file technique 5. To switch the detailed terrain rendering on, I used the landmass slider (since I remember snow first being available under landmass) - so that decides if terrain and models use the same or different shaders - if quality is 4, then terrain-haze-detaild.* is used for terrain but still terrain-haze.* by models (which shouldn't get snow, are not large enough for structured fog and might be dust-free). That makes the landmass slider special. What I don't understand is why this should fail specifically for models and work for terrain and why it should fail specifically at startup but not when you touch the slider. * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> Btw - with the recent GIT, I now get Rembrandt working with --prop:/sim/ > rendering/no-16bit-buffer=true in the commandline and a shadow map no > larger than 4096x4096. I'm getting ~9-10 fps out at KSFO, about 14 in > low vertex count situations like TNCM or a carrier - is that in the > expected range? Let me correct you: not the vertice count is the bottleneck in Rembrandt and FlightGear- but objects number! Test it yourself: - create a simple cube in Blender (8 vertices) - duplicate in Object mode several times ( I did it around 1000x times!) So we have a model containing a large number of objects and 8000 vertices all about. - save it as .ac - used the ufo and replaced the UFO-model with the new object, and start FlightGear in Rembrandt mode Then I used the same model, but joined all 1000 objects together, so got a model with just one object but still 8000 vertices. I started at Kufstein/ LOIK with the CustomScenery provided by Christian Schmidt, detailed scenery but away from LOWI. The One-Object-model gave me full framerate of 60fps, the 1000 Objects model gave me about 20 and less And thats one reason why LOWI or other aircraft are quite difficult for some. They contain a lot of models. But each model is splitted up into several objects. Some are need for animation, but a lot not. Especially aircraft with complex cockpits and detailed instruments, especially digital displays not made using 2d-layers, naturally uses a lot of objects, which will then slow down. Of course such instruments doesn't need to cast shadows. So there will be another speed up when Fred is able to get back the -tag. And there is something else which can help: Fred made the shadows-cascade configurable at runtime. Not only you can improve the shadow quality with (smaller edges so it looks quite sharp)at close distance, you can also set the overall distance of the shadows with. I'm sure Fred can tell us a bit more about, but I found it already very helpfull! Cheers Heiko P.S. Sorry, the posting by me was made accidently- to quick hitting the button. still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] (no subject)
> Btw - with the recent GIT, I now get Rembrandt working with --prop:/sim/ > rendering/no-16bit-buffer=true in the commandline and a shadow map no > larger than 4096x4096. I'm getting ~9-10 fps out at KSFO, about 14 in > low vertex count situations like TNCM or a carrier - is that in the > expected range? Let me correct you: not the vertice count is the bottleneck in Rembrandt and FlightGear- but objects number! Test it yourself: - create a simple cube in Blender (8 vertices) - duplicate in Object mode several times ( I did it around 1000x times!) So we have a model containing a large number of objects and 8000 vertices all about. - save it as .ac - used the ufo and replaced the UFO-model with the new object, and start FlightGear in Rembrandt mode Then I used the same model, but joined all 1000 objects together, so got a model with just one object but still 8000 vertices. I started at Kufstein/ LOIK with the CustomScenery provided by Christian Schmidt, detailed scenery but away from LOWI. The One-Object-model gave me full framerate of 60fps, the 1000 Objects model gave me about 20 and less And thats one reason why LOWI or other aircraft are quite difficult for some. They contain a lot of models. But each model is splitted up into several objects. Some are need for animation, but a lot not. Especially aircraft with complex cockpits and detailed instruments, especially digital displays not made using 2d-layers, naturally uses a lot of objects, which will then slow down. Of course such instruments doesn't need to cast shadows. So there will be another speed up when Fred is able to get back the -tag. And there is something else which can help: Fred made the shadows-cascade configurable at runtime. Not only you can improve the shadow quality with (smaller edges so it looks quite sharp)at close distance, you can also set the overall distance of the shadows with. I'm sure Fred can tell us a bit more about, but I found it already very helpfull! Cheers Heiko still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] using property values as indexes for other property references in a animation XML file.
I searched and can't find anything to do this, but just wanted to make
sure it doesn't exist.
I have a property /instruments/b/index let's say it has a int value of 1
In my animation XML file I need to access an array, with the above
property being used as the index.
something like;
/instruments/b/a[ {/instruments/b/index} ]/value
Is there anything in PropertyList text processing that allows me to
reference another property inside referencing a property like the above?
Cheers
Scott.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> > Do you reproduce the problem I see ? > > Okay, found the problem with userarchive and eliminated it Now I > see the same thing you describe, the model shader doesn't start up > correctly, but all goes well once one just clicks the slider. The > model shader doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, I can't fog > the buildings either. > > I wonder why the terrain shading starts up the right way though - if > any parameters passed to the shader would not be ready, then the > terrain should show the same problem, but that isn't happening. This doesn't happen when you click on another slider or when we start at 1. Should be something specific to landmass. > Btw - with the recent GIT, I now get Rembrandt working with > --prop:/sim/rendering/no-16bit-buffer=true in the commandline and a > shadow map no larger than 4096x4096. I'm getting ~9-10 fps out at > KSFO, about 14 in low vertex count situations like TNCM or a carrier > - is that in the expected range? Yes. You can disable shadows and see what is the delta in fps. Usually I get 5 more. Regards, -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> Do you reproduce the problem I see ? Okay, found the problem with userarchive and eliminated it Now I see the same thing you describe, the model shader doesn't start up correctly, but all goes well once one just clicks the slider. The model shader doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, I can't fog the buildings either. I wonder why the terrain shading starts up the right way though - if any parameters passed to the shader would not be ready, then the terrain should show the same problem, but that isn't happening. Btw - with the recent GIT, I now get Rembrandt working with --prop:/sim/rendering/no-16bit-buffer=true in the commandline and a shadow map no larger than 4096x4096. I'm getting ~9-10 fps out at KSFO, about 14 in low vertex count situations like TNCM or a carrier - is that in the expected range? * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> > I have no idea too. It looks like an uninitialized value that get > > one when we click on the slider. Do you reproduce the problem I see ? > > For some (yet to be determined) reason the shader settings are not > archived on Flightgear exit in my local devel branch since my > next-to-last update three weeks ago. That could explain why I never > really saw the problem, because I start with landmass slider > initialized to 3 and always shift it to 4 by hand - so I always > touched it in my tests before the shader came on. I'll try later > today to set the shader quality via commandline and see what happens > then (I'm at the wrong computer to try at the moment...) Maybe you already know that, but closing the window using the windows manager close decoration bypass setting saving here. The default value in preferences.xml is 1, so if you start at 3, either you changes preferences.xml locally, or you have your private settings loaded. Maybe they are now read-only. Regards, -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> I have no idea too. It looks like an uninitialized value that get one > when we click on the slider. Do you reproduce the problem I see ? For some (yet to be determined) reason the shader settings are not archived on Flightgear exit in my local devel branch since my next-to-last update three weeks ago. That could explain why I never really saw the problem, because I start with landmass slider initialized to 3 and always shift it to 4 by hand - so I always touched it in my tests before the shader came on. I'll try later today to set the shader quality via commandline and see what happens then (I'm at the wrong computer to try at the moment...) * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> > > That problem goes away if landmass shader is disabled. The strange > > thing is that when set to some value, the problem appears but as soon as > > you click on the landmass slider, without changing the value, the > > problem goes away too. > > Is this anything I could have caused? Because I have no idea where to > look for a potential fix. I have no idea too. It looks like an uninitialized value that get one when we click on the slider. Do you reproduce the problem I see ? What I did was : 1. open the shader custom configuration and put the landmass slider to the right. 2. stop FG with the quit menu to record my settings, 3. restart at KSFO and see the maintenance and terminal buildings with weird lighting. 4. open the shader dialog and click on the landmass slider thumb: the lighting comes back. That doesn't happen if the slider in in the left position. Regards, -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> That problem goes away if landmass shader is disabled. The strange thing > is that when set to some value, the problem appears but as soon as you > click on the landmass slider, without changing the value, the problem > goes away too. Is this anything I could have caused? Because I have no idea where to look for a potential fix. * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
On Friday 27 April 2012 06:50:22 Renk Thorsten wrote: > > Thank you for the info - that's good to know (although admittedly I have to > do some reading trying to understand what 'that' precisely is - the linked > article is a bit opaque for me). Seems there's a lot to learn about the > hidden secrets of GLSL... > > Since this doesn't look like a crippling issue (it seems to work on my card > just fine, it potentially affects only higher detail settings,...) I would > like to take the time and understand what is going on before making any > changes. The reason is that things end up in conditionals usually because I > tested them to have better performance, so just pulling them out would > degrade performance again. The article seems to suggest a different syntax > to do conditional texture lookup inside an if clause, so I would like to > look into that and compare performance in some benchmarks. > > I would also be intersted if anyone is actually seeing any texturing > artefacts (should be mainly the snow effect) caused by the issue, so that I > can see if I implemented a fix correctly, because on my system it's running > fine as it is. > > Thanks, > > * Thorsten Found the original article describing the issue http://www.opengl.org/img/uploads/pipeline/pipeline_001.pdf page 3, " New Texture Functions with Awkward Names to Avoid Ugly Artifacts" The new functions require the extensions present, and a port of the shader to glsl 1.40. And even then they may or may not be properly supported by different cards. So the simple solution is to pull them out of the conditional. I have hit this with the transition shader, it worked fine on different cards, but it blew up the mipmap lookup on a card similar to mine: http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13513&hilit=dds+textures#p136566 check the "cornrows" in the distance on the forest areas. The usage of custom miplevels made it more obvious and easy to spot, but the effects of these can range from a small discontinuity in the features to the shader eroring on some other implementations. Regards Emilian -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> I usually commit Thorsten's work. Will have a look in the next days. This is in git now, with the duplicated technique removed -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> Presumably all these effects could actually be done as one > screenspace pass? Please elaborate -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
Presumably all these effects could actually be done as one screenspace pass? -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> > It also seems that some model are not lighted anymore : > > http://frbouvi.free.fr/flightsim/fgfs-haze-1.3.gif > > The only place models get the effect is if they go via > Effects/model-default.eff if they're using their own effect file > they are not in the scheme. I was speaking about the terminal, not the random buildings. But you already saw my previous message :) -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> > Thorsten, > > > > > > One comment - to avoid any problems with merge requests being > > > > lost/ignored - who is this 'aimed' at? I.e who needs to review > > > > it > > > > and decide? I don't feel qualified, for example :) > > > > > > > > (But maybe I just merge it and see who complains ;) > > > > > > > > Not that you need to pick on any one person, but if everyone is > > > > busy, > > > > the ball gets dropped, and you (Thorsten) feel like work is > > > > being > > > > ignored, which is bad for everyone. > > > > > > I usually commit Thorsten's work. Will have a look in the next > > > days. > > > > > > The direct link to the merge request is usually handy. > > > > Effects/terrain-default.eff has two techniques number 4. They seem > > similar > > > > Could you check ? > > It also seems that some model are not lighted anymore : > http://frbouvi.free.fr/flightsim/fgfs-haze-1.3.gif That problem goes away if landmass shader is disabled. The strange thing is that when set to some value, the problem appears but as soon as you click on the landmass slider, without changing the value, the problem goes away too. Regards, -Fred -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrain Haze v1.3
> It also seems that some model are not lighted anymore : > http://frbouvi.free.fr/flightsim/fgfs-haze-1.3.gif The only place models get the effect is if they go via Effects/model-default.eff if they're using their own effect file they are not in the scheme. In addition, neither the random buildings nor the random vegetation in the screenshot are currently implemented in the scheme - that makes it a bit hard to see if there's something going wrong in the screenshot, random buildings and static buildings should have different lighting to dome degree. Do they respond to fog (ground haze slider in Advanced Weather)? Also, what if you simply use Effects/model-default.eff as currently on master (shouldn't really be much of a difference)? I have observed once that models came out very dark, that was fixed by switching the shader on and off, apparently some glitch which I could never reproduce. Spending 3 minutes with Effects/model-default.eff in the merge request branch doesn't reveal anything odd. So, I'm a bit at a loss. * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
