Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Martin Spott wrote: Stefan Seifert wrote: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss Well, you never know which intention sits behind the mentioned EMail, you don't even know the author. Bear in mind that Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer would be credible candidates for authorship of something like this. Look what it's done already - closed down a potential competitor to M$... Maybe it's just a 'symptom', a side-effect of the fight about the Right Way (TM) on how to use OpenGL for desktop eye candy, probably driven by jealousy ?!? There's been a Slashdot thread covering this at: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/14/2059242 I suggest you read at +2 or better to filter out the worst of the loonies, but opinions on Slashdot are clearly divided between the "linux must never be distributed on the same medium as any non-GPL code" camp versus the "nothing wrong - binary drivers aren't part of the kernel itself, they just use it" camp. My opinion sides with the latter. Steve.
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:43:32 +0200, Stefan wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. [ ] I've understood the purpose of a Live CD, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..we do have the right to distribute the GPL ati and radeon drivers under the GPL. This is a very strong reason Nvidea would consider honoring our question to distribute their proprietary binary drivers favorably, or watch ATI get all the FGLive business on GPL drivers. ..we need only ask them, and then ATI, and in that sequence. ;o) You miss the point, it's not about distributing drivers from NVidia or ATI together with the Linux kernel, it's about distributing the Linux kernel together with these drivers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Steve Hosgood wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Maybe it's just a 'symptom', a side-effect of the fight about the Right Way (TM) on how to use OpenGL for desktop eye candy, probably driven by jealousy ?!? There's been a Slashdot thread covering this at: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/14/2059242 Well, I didn't find anything new in this thread, actually it consists of statements that are being repeated for months or years now - and finally the thread doesn't give any insight into the motivation behind this EMail that has been cited. Regards, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..we do have the right to distribute the GPL ati and radeon drivers under the GPL. Yeah, but they suck in comparison with the binary drivers. There's no 3D acceleration. This is a very strong reason Nvidea would consider honoring our question to distribute their proprietary binary drivers favorably, or watch ATI get all the FGLive business on GPL drivers. ..we need only ask them, and then ATI, and in that sequence. ;o) I don't think the problem was ever with Nvidia or ATI. Specifically asking their permission might be polite but other people package those binary drivers in convenient ways (like in RPMs) and don't run into trouble. The trouble is that some random troller emailed Kororaa (who also do a LiveCD thing) claiming that GPL prohibits distributing proprietary binary drivers with a linux kernel. Opinions are (to say the least) divided. Kororaa has, temporarily, withdrawn their LiveCD. The scare is that FGLive would run into the same problem with the GPL. Reading slashdot, you get the impression that the you can't distribute camp are arguing from a purely idealistic point of view in which they claim that all software should be free and that free software cannot co-exist with proprietary software on the same planet. The other camp is actually reading the words of the GPL which don't seem to prohibit anything being proprietary, just that it can't be *linked in* to GPL software. Drivers aren't linked in, they're dynamically loaded when needed, and in the case of the 3D drivers, the shim that interfaces to the kernel calls to let that happen *is* GPL and sourcecode is distributed for it. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but IANAL. Steve. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Tue, 16 May 2006 05:22:47 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:43:32 +0200, Stefan wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. [ ] I've understood the purpose of a Live CD, [ ] I've understood the purpose of boot time scripts to solve licensing problems on the FGLive CD. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Tue, 16 May 2006 17:29:19 +0100, Steve wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..we do have the right to distribute the GPL ati and radeon drivers under the GPL. Yeah, but they suck in comparison with the binary drivers. There's no 3D acceleration. ..huh? I have it working ok here. This is a very strong reason Nvidea would consider honoring our question to distribute their proprietary binary drivers favorably, or watch ATI get all the FGLive business on GPL drivers. ..we need only ask them, and then ATI, and in that sequence. ;o) I don't think the problem was ever with Nvidia or ATI. Specifically asking their permission might be polite but other people package those binary drivers in convenient ways (like in RPMs) and don't run into trouble. The trouble is that some random troller emailed Kororaa (who also do a LiveCD thing) claiming that GPL prohibits distributing proprietary binary drivers with a linux kernel. Opinions are (to say the least) divided. Kororaa has, temporarily, withdrawn their LiveCD. The scare is that FGLive would run into the same problem with the GPL. ..the real danger is none of us can afford litigating Microsoft on anything less than a squeaky clean slam dunk bat of a case. Which is precisely why we need to ask Nvidea and ATI. Reading slashdot, you get the impression that the you can't ..forget /., read Groklaw.net . ... Seems like a no-brainer to me, but IANAL. ..correct, assuming we do our bit. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Tue, 16 May 2006 14:06:19 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..we do have the right to distribute the GPL ati and radeon drivers under the GPL. This is a very strong reason Nvidea would consider honoring our question to distribute their proprietary binary drivers favorably, or watch ATI get all the FGLive business on GPL drivers. ..we need only ask them, and then ATI, and in that sequence. ;o) You miss the point, it's not about distributing drivers from NVidia or ATI together with the Linux kernel, it's about distributing the Linux kernel together with these drivers, ..the kernel is irrelevant, it is all about the licensing. AFAIK, both Nvidea and ATI usually allows the distribution of their binaries when bundled with GPL operating systems, such as GNU/Linux. To set up a slam dunk case trap and scare Microsoft shills away, we just ask for Nvidea and ATI approval. ;o) ..now, all of this legal bruhaha will be solved by the final GPL3. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Tue, 16 May 2006 08:29:48 +0900, alexander wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. No, all we need is to read license text :) Look at http://www.nvidia.com/object/nv_swlicense.html It is legal to include NVidia drivers to Linux distro. ..I rest my case. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Martin Spott wrote: Steve Hosgood wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Maybe it's just a 'symptom', a side-effect of the fight about the Right Way (TM) on how to use OpenGL for desktop eye candy, probably driven by jealousy ?!? There's been a Slashdot thread covering this at: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/14/2059242 Well, I didn't find anything new in this thread... Sorry - I didn't say it contained anything new, just that it existed. actually it consists of statements that are being repeated for months or years now Yeah - it isn't like this hasn't happened before, but I must admit I'd thought the situation had been resolved ages ago. I.e. it is OK to have a proprietary plug-in to GPL-ed software as long as it is indeed a plug-in, not compiled in. Loadable device drivers would count as a "plug-in". Obviously. Look at things like Xine and Mplayer, the DVD and media players. They use plugins all the time (many of them intended to work on M$ Windows), and there's never been a fuss about distributing Xine or Mplayer. There has been a fuss about acquiring some of the plugins that were intended for use with M$ Windows, but that was down to copyright and licencing issues from the authors of the plugins. The FGLive CD doesn't have that problem because the copyright holders of the 3D drivers are OK about redistribution. - and finally the thread doesn't give any insight into the motivation behind this EMail that has been cited. Ah yes, trouble is you'll probably never know that bit. It could be M$ themselves spreading FUD (wouldn't be the first time) and it could just be some loser 15 yr old idealist doing some trolling. Steve.
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. No, all we need is to read license text :) Look at http://www.nvidia.com/object/nv_swlicense.html It is legal to include NVidia drivers to Linux distro. -- Best regards, Alexander Babichev http://www.babichev.info --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss Nine --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:43:32 +0200, Stefan wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:43:32 +0200, Stefan wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. Well, without graphics drivers then what's the point. Does it make sense to download them and install them every time you boot; is this even possible when running off cd? What about issues of net access (or the potential lack there of.) Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
On Mon, 15 May 2006 16:35:08 -0500, Curtis wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:43:32 +0200, Stefan wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss ..nope, all we need to do is kick out the ATI and Nvidea proprietary binaries and set up scripts to download them if anyone needs them. Well, without graphics drivers then what's the point. Does it make sense to download them and install them every time you boot; is this even possible when running off cd? What about issues of net access (or the potential lack there of.) ..we do have the right to distribute the GPL ati and radeon drivers under the GPL. This is a very strong reason Nvidea would consider honoring our question to distribute their proprietary binary drivers favorably, or watch ATI get all the FGLive business on GPL drivers. ..we need only ask them, and then ATI, and in that sequence. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
I always use my poor man installation of Knoppix (like a live cd image booting from HD), and save those drivers and video codec to a flash memory, and copy back to ramdisk (union fs) for later usage / installationThis way I have an access to essential, but hard toaccess stuff at hand in a convenient place.If a file is too big to fit, I burn it to my cd or dvd and copy back to ramdisk (union fs) for later usage / installation, like I did for X-Plane.Isao"Curtis L. Olson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Well, without graphics drivers then what's the point. Does it make sense to download them and install them every time you boot; is this even possible when running off cd? What about issues of net access (or the potential lack there of.)Curt.
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
From: Stefan Seifert That may be a problem, that could affect FGLive, too: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/15/1451229from=rss Nine Technically you could include the vendor's files and just script the build, but I wouldn't even bother with that until you get a complaint from Linus. I think the spirit of this project could not be compared directly to nVidia and ATI distributing linked code themselves. Of course we cannot tell, but it would not surprise me if the notice was composed by someone who doesn't have the authority or right to pursue the issue. If someone were to sell FGLive discs then trouble might arrive. Licenses are fine, but copyright law is really about money and demonstrating a quantifiable financial loss is key to any claim. Best, Jim -- Jim Wilson Kelco Industries PO Box 160 Milbridge, ME 04658 207-546-7989 --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] FGLive 0.1 alpha available for testing
Hi all, I've just uploaded the first FGLive iso image release, namely 0.1 alpha. I've tested it natively on my machine with a nvidia card, and it's working pretty well. It would be good if people with non-nvidia card can try it out. For ati I've included 2 versions of fglrx drivers, as well as the open source ones. If you have a display card that has working 3d acceleration on your system with FG, but not with FGLive, please let me know. There's a README included in the CD, which also can be viewed here: http://pigeond.net/flightgear/README.fglive.html I'm currently hosting the file on bittorrent. And the torrent can be downloaded at: http://pigeond.net/flightgear/fglive-0.1alpha.torrent The file is about 509mb. md5sum ced71c4cf517b5bc1ba3c2b86a64c34b I've set my maximum upload rate to 100KB/s at the moment. If you have the bandwidth, please help to seed it. Or if you want to host the file by other means (FTP, HTTP, etc), feel free to do so. And of course, comments are much welcomed and needed. Thanks all. Pigeon. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
