Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Curtis Olson wrote: Can we just quote Mark Kilgard's comment in that thread that modification is fine? I like Debian and I ran their distribution on my machines for many years. I admire how carefully they follow through with these licensing issues ... but my word ... no wonder their package versions are 4 years behind every other distribution. If this code is just used by a utility that is useful for developers only (normalmap) then I'd move the code oevr to that specific directory and leave it at that. I'll have to do some other work today by might be able to do it myself in the next few days if no one else beats me to it. Erik -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Erik Hofman wrote: If this code is just used by a utility that is useful for developers only (normalmap) then I'd move the code oevr to that specific directory and leave it at that. I had a few spare minutes and the code is moved over now. Erik -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Ron Jensen skrev: On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 03:30 +0200, o...@arcticnet.no wrote: o...@arcticnet.no skrev: Ron Jensen skrev: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb Yes, but it's in the oldlibs section. No current package in Debian use it. Everything is linked against freeglut, which supersedes it. Upon further examination, I'll have to correct myself. That link points to a dummy transition package which just depends on freeglut and is otherwise empty. Mark Kilgard's glut really isn't in Debian anymore. I didn't look at the .deb, I'll admit. I did pull the original today, though: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/glut_3.7.orig.tar.gz (3.0 mbytes) Why this academic exercise? There aren't any binaries built from that, so Debian packages couldn't use it. The empty transition packages probably only still use that upstream source because of technical reasons (due to the way the archive management and dependency system works). Without any binaries, then for all practical purposes, it's gone. I'd think that's good enough (and probably so did the Debian glut maintainer, who now maintains freeglut). -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
Thanks.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Hi ?
o...@arcticnet.no a écrit :
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
It seems that this file/class is not used in SimGear/FlightGear anymore.
OSG took its place. So fixing this looks quite easy to me : let's remove it.
-Fred
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Frederic Bouvier wrote:
Hi ?
o...@arcticnet.no a écrit :
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
It seems that this file/class is not used in SimGear/FlightGear anymore.
OSG took its place. So fixing this looks quite easy to me : let's remove it.
-Fred
FWIW, it is used in the normalmap tool.
Tim
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 7:24 AM, o...@arcticnet.no wrote:
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
I am not a lawyer, but let me try to parse the license:
/*
* \file texture.hxx
* Texture manipulation routines
*
* Copyright (c) Mark J. Kilgard, 1997.
* Code added in april 2003 by Erik Hofman
*
* This program is freely distributable without licensing fees
* and is provided without guarantee or warrantee expressed or
* implied. This program is -not- in the public domain.
*/
I see two statements:
1. This program is not in the public domain. I don't see a problem here,
none of our [L]GPL code is in the public domain either.
2. This program is freely distributable without licensing fees and is
provided without guarantee or warrantee expressed or implied. This first
statement seems to say we are free to distribute the code.
I don't see any thing in the license terms that states we cannot modify the
code. Are we running on the assumption that we can only do what is
expressly allowed? Perhaps Erik Hofman should address this. As I look at
the code I see it's a full C++ class. But I'm pretty sure what Mark
original wrote was a C language rgb texture loader, and not the full C++
class that we have now. I suspect that Erik must have started with Mark
Kilgard's rgb texture loader and developed a full class around that and then
simply left Mark's original license terms at the top.
If Fred is correct that this is no longer used within flightgear, then
perhaps the simplest thing to do is to remove it ... or move it off into
some archival area if we think we might want to use the code in the future.
Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Tim Moore a écrit :
Frederic Bouvier wrote:
Hi ?
o...@arcticnet.no a écrit :
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
It seems that this file/class is not used in SimGear/FlightGear anymore.
OSG took its place. So fixing this looks quite easy to me : let's remove it.
-Fred
FWIW, it is used in the normalmap tool.
Oops. Sorry. I only looked in /src
-Fred
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Curtis Olson skrev: Are we running on the assumption that we can only do what is expressly allowed? When it comes to someone else's copyright, it's not only an assumption. It's the law. And Debian is adamant about following it... so, yes. Thanks. -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Curtis Olson wrote: I don't see any thing in the license terms that states we cannot modify the code. Are we running on the assumption that we can only do what is expressly allowed? Perhaps Erik Hofman should address this. As I look at the code I see it's a full C++ class. But I'm pretty sure what Mark original wrote was a C language rgb texture loader, and not the full C++ class that we have now. I suspect that Erik must have started with Mark Kilgard's rgb texture loader and developed a full class around that and then simply left Mark's original license terms at the top. Correct, and I always interpreted is as being free to redistribute without any restrictions. If Fred is correct that this is no longer used within flightgear, then perhaps the simplest thing to do is to remove it ... or move it off into some archival area if we think we might want to use the code in the future. Agreed. Erik -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Looking at the code it is heavily modified in the mean time, although parts of the original texture loading code are still in place. Erik -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
I've tried to figure out the origin of that code, and it seems there's consensus that Kilgard's code really cannot be modified. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL_Utility_Toolkit Kilgard's GLUT library is no longer maintained, and its license did not permit the redistribution of modified versions of the library. So some people reimplemented it from scratch: http://freeglut.sourceforge.net/ So, as an alternative to retiring texture.cpp entirely, perhaps you can substitute in freeglut's texture loader (assuming there's one?) instead of Kilgard's... -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
On Sun, 2009-06-21 at 14:24 +0200, o...@arcticnet.no wrote:
It seems that the license header of simgear/screen/texture.{cxx,hxx}
does not have the same LGPL header as the rest of the sources. In fact,
it says that the code is freely distributable, but not freely
modifiable. Is this file really under an Open Source license? Could you
clarify (at least for the sake of the license pedants here at Debian,
who won't accept my packages without settling this)?
Thanks.
I think this 5 year old bug might help answer the question
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=131997
I am not sure if texture.{cxx,hxx} qualifies as a glut example, but even
if it doesn't glut has the same license as this fragment, and glut is
still in debian
http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb
Ron
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Ron Jensen skrev:
I think this 5 year old bug might help answer the question
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=131997
Hmm, thanks. I guess I can show them that, then, when I package simgear
up again. Hopefully it's enough.
I am not sure if texture.{cxx,hxx} qualifies as a glut example, but even
if it doesn't glut has the same license as this fragment, and glut is
still in debian
http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb
Yes, but it's in the oldlibs section. No current package in Debian use
it. Everything is linked against freeglut, which supersedes it.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
o...@arcticnet.no skrev: Ron Jensen skrev: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb Yes, but it's in the oldlibs section. No current package in Debian use it. Everything is linked against freeglut, which supersedes it. Upon further examination, I'll have to correct myself. That link points to a dummy transition package which just depends on freeglut and is otherwise empty. Mark Kilgard's glut really isn't in Debian anymore. -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Can we just quote Mark Kilgard's comment in that thread that modification is fine? I like Debian and I ran their distribution on my machines for many years. I admire how carefully they follow through with these licensing issues ... but my word ... no wonder their package versions are 4 years behind every other distribution. I don't want to take the same quit wasting my time attitude as Mark Kilgard. Maybe there's something reasonable the FlightGear project can do to help out the situation. On the other hand I don't have a month available myself to fully see this issue to resolution if it requires completely rewriting that class. Personally, I'm willing to roll the dice on this one and take a chance that Mark won't send his lawyers after us because (a) my reading of the intent of his license is that modification is fine even though his license terms are not explicitely clear and (b) after the fact Mark has cleared this up be explicitely stating what we are doing is fine. He simply can't be bothered to go back and fiddle with a bunch of old code he developed while he worked for a previous employer. Curt. On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 8:30 PM, o...@arcticnet.no wrote: o...@arcticnet.no skrev: Ron Jensen skrev: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb Yes, but it's in the oldlibs section. No current package in Debian use it. Everything is linked against freeglut, which supersedes it. Upon further examination, I'll have to correct myself. That link points to a dummy transition package which just depends on freeglut and is otherwise empty. Mark Kilgard's glut really isn't in Debian anymore. -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
Curtis Olson skrev: Can we just quote Mark Kilgard's comment in that thread that modification is fine? That's what I plan to do for now. I like Debian and I ran their distribution on my machines for many years. I admire how carefully they follow through with these licensing issues ... but my word ... no wonder their package versions are 4 years behind every other distribution. Oh, why is that? In Debian, freeglut apparently only replaced glut in March 2004 (two years after that license bug), presumably because freeglut was actively maintained, fixed bugs, and had simply become better than Mark Kilgard's glut. (I think I do remember it breaking flightgear a bit at one time, but they quickly fixed it.) As far as I know, in general, the only reason package versions in Debian stable is behind other distros is due to the @#% long release cycle, not much else. Well, and sometimes it's because the maintainers are volunteers who don't get paid, and might get too busy and/or lazy. Anyway, where other distros measure the release cycle in months, it seems Debian measures it in years (and the final year of that cycle is dedicated to a freeze, where no updates are allowed...). For that reason, typical Debian end-users often don't stick to stable, but follow either the testing or unstable branches (depending on how brave they are or something), where they *can* get updated packages in a timely fashion, without waiting 4 years. I run testing myself on my laptop, and haven't had a lot of problems (once I managed to get it installed in the first place, given that the Intel wifi requires non-free firmware which Debian didn't bundle on the installation media; had to go online to download it, Catch-22). My software is always reasonably up to date. -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:33 PM, wrote: ... [curt] no wonder their package versions are 4 years behind every other distribution. Oh, why is that? That was said mostly in jest. Maybe I should have said, by the time Debian finalizes a release, the kids who watched the pixar movie with the character the debian release is named after have grown up and now have kids of their own. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] License of simgear/screen/texture.cxx
On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 03:30 +0200, o...@arcticnet.no wrote: o...@arcticnet.no skrev: Ron Jensen skrev: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/libglut3_3.7-25_all.deb Yes, but it's in the oldlibs section. No current package in Debian use it. Everything is linked against freeglut, which supersedes it. Upon further examination, I'll have to correct myself. That link points to a dummy transition package which just depends on freeglut and is otherwise empty. Mark Kilgard's glut really isn't in Debian anymore. I didn't look at the .deb, I'll admit. I did pull the original today, though: http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/glut/glut_3.7.orig.tar.gz (3.0 mbytes) -- Are you an open source citizen? Join us for the Open Source Bridge conference! Portland, OR, June 17-19. Two days of sessions, one day of unconference: $250. Need another reason to go? 24-hour hacker lounge. Register today! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;215844324;13503038;v?http://opensourcebridge.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
