Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > > While not perfect > for that (there are MIL standards for this), it would have to be checked if > an optimized GUI font is a reasonable replacement. > Just to point to some documents if someone wants to study this standards: - MIL-STD-1787B, http://www.hf.faa.gov/docs/milstd1787b.zip - FAA Final Report on Human Factors Design Guidelines for Multifunction Displays, http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0117.pdf -Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
leee schrieb: > > If anyone can find some high-res pictures of _real_ HUD displays > (and not ones from flight sims, as they're obviously going to be > produced via a raster display) it should be possible to see the > LCD 'dots' (unless they LCD screen uses a ridiculously high > resolution, which doesn't really chime with the requirements for > size and ruggedisation). > > Anyway, a vector type font should be used on older first generation > HUDs for authenticity. > > LeeE There are some low-res pictures of historical visual target displays from 1940 where you see how the numbers and lines appears. One of the problems I have with the creation of the font for the HUD is that in reality there are many different fonts now. A big change came when HUDs started to give more information than only numbers or lines. The old visual standards to display numbers can make problems when you add characters. The first target display numbers looked like what we have for the taxiway signs (FAA AC 150/5345-44*H*). This numbers were drawn by hand and the forms were following important requirements for human readability like significant differences between '2' and '5' or '5' and '6' etc. New HUDs changed the requirements because they contain now also characters. I do not know if the standards have been adapted to this new needs or if there are many different standards? If someone can point me to some recent documents I am very happy. The first generation enclosing characters I see used 'old' numbers and 'new' characters. Some HUDs did not follow any standard and it looks like they used a font as it was set by technology. When you use 'old' standard you will run into problems with readability and differences between 'l' and '1' or 'O' and '0' i.e. I am working on a font now which integrates old and new numbers. This font could be used for simulating 'visual targets displays' like they have been in past and also for modern HUDs. While the standards are not clear (for me) in the modern HUD (you see so many different letterings) I should probably draw a font which FAA will once integrate in a regulation ;-) Thanks - Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
LCD is essentially a memory mapped array. Each element is addressed by row and column, so in effect it can also be visualised as a raster display. To draw a vector on such a display you have to calculate which row/column elements need to be illuminated. With a vector display the hardware had a start and end X-Y positions defined for each vector. The spot was turned on by changing the potential at the CRT control grid and then X and Y were ramped to the end point before turning the spot off. It worked much like an analogue X-Y plotter. This was very efficient for simple cartoon like graphics , and also gave a display with considerably higher contrast and brightness than the alternative raster displays of the time. -- From: "leee" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:56 PM To: "FlightGear developers discussions" Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font > On Tuesday 02 Mar 2010, HB-GRAL wrote: >> Melchior FRANZ schrieb: >> > * HB-GRAL -- Tuesday 02 March 2010: >> >> Melchior FRANZ schrieb: >> >>> Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). >> >>> While not perfect for that (there are MIL standards for >> >>> this), >> >> >> >> Do you mean in real HUDs? >> > >> > Real HUDs use a MIL standard font. Ours use Helvetica. I even >> > tuned that for the use in HUDs, as the prior version didn't >> > look good in tapes. I don't say that yours is worse, just that >> > it can't be swapped without checking. And a MIL spec compliant >> > font should be the ultimate goal, anyway. >> >> Yes, I see that I misunderstood your comment about f-16. >> >> As I started to work for a 'all-in-one FG-Font' I had the HUD in >> mind and also signage because the original and OFL-Allerta is >> exactly for this purpose (there are some equal requirements for >> fonts in a display and for signage I think). Now the real >> standard numbers like yours(?) in the sign textures are miles >> better then anywhere and this standard is also used in some real >> HUDs. I think now it is better to separate all this things and >> not to work for a 'all-in-one'. >> >> Thanks- Yves > > Does anyone know if raster displays are used in modern HUDs? The > early first generation huds were all vector displays, of course, > but Wikipedia says that second generation HUDs use an LCD screen to > modulate the light from an LED. However, it's still not clear to > me whether this counts as a raster display (although it does > suggest a raster mask). > > That all the HUD images I've ever seen, including modern ones, are > still monochrome suggests that they're still essentially vector > displays, for if the imagery is produced using an LCD then I'd > expect to see different colours on the HUD, instead of the > ubiquitous green (although red/orange has been used on some > automobiles). > > If anyone can find some high-res pictures of _real_ HUD displays > (and not ones from flight sims, as they're obviously going to be > produced via a raster display) it should be possible to see the > LCD 'dots' (unless they LCD screen uses a ridiculously high > resolution, which doesn't really chime with the requirements for > size and ruggedisation). > > Anyway, a vector type font should be used on older first generation > HUDs for authenticity. > > LeeE > > -- > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
On Tuesday 02 Mar 2010, HB-GRAL wrote: > Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > > * HB-GRAL -- Tuesday 02 March 2010: > >> Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > >>> Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). > >>> While not perfect for that (there are MIL standards for > >>> this), > >> > >> Do you mean in real HUDs? > > > > Real HUDs use a MIL standard font. Ours use Helvetica. I even > > tuned that for the use in HUDs, as the prior version didn't > > look good in tapes. I don't say that yours is worse, just that > > it can't be swapped without checking. And a MIL spec compliant > > font should be the ultimate goal, anyway. > > Yes, I see that I misunderstood your comment about f-16. > > As I started to work for a 'all-in-one FG-Font' I had the HUD in > mind and also signage because the original and OFL-Allerta is > exactly for this purpose (there are some equal requirements for > fonts in a display and for signage I think). Now the real > standard numbers like yours(?) in the sign textures are miles > better then anywhere and this standard is also used in some real > HUDs. I think now it is better to separate all this things and > not to work for a 'all-in-one'. > > Thanks- Yves Does anyone know if raster displays are used in modern HUDs? The early first generation huds were all vector displays, of course, but Wikipedia says that second generation HUDs use an LCD screen to modulate the light from an LED. However, it's still not clear to me whether this counts as a raster display (although it does suggest a raster mask). That all the HUD images I've ever seen, including modern ones, are still monochrome suggests that they're still essentially vector displays, for if the imagery is produced using an LCD then I'd expect to see different colours on the HUD, instead of the ubiquitous green (although red/orange has been used on some automobiles). If anyone can find some high-res pictures of _real_ HUD displays (and not ones from flight sims, as they're obviously going to be produced via a raster display) it should be possible to see the LCD 'dots' (unless they LCD screen uses a ridiculously high resolution, which doesn't really chime with the requirements for size and ruggedisation). Anyway, a vector type font should be used on older first generation HUDs for authenticity. LeeE -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > * HB-GRAL -- Tuesday 02 March 2010: >> Melchior FRANZ schrieb: >>> Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). While not >>> perfect >>> for that (there are MIL standards for this), > >> Do you mean in real HUDs? > > Real HUDs use a MIL standard font. Ours use Helvetica. I even tuned that > for the use in HUDs, as the prior version didn't look good in tapes. > I don't say that yours is worse, just that it can't be swapped without > checking. And a MIL spec compliant font should be the ultimate goal, anyway. > Yes, I see that I misunderstood your comment about f-16. As I started to work for a 'all-in-one FG-Font' I had the HUD in mind and also signage because the original and OFL-Allerta is exactly for this purpose (there are some equal requirements for fonts in a display and for signage I think). Now the real standard numbers like yours(?) in the sign textures are miles better then anywhere and this standard is also used in some real HUDs. I think now it is better to separate all this things and not to work for a 'all-in-one'. Thanks- Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
* HB-GRAL -- Tuesday 02 March 2010: > Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > > Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). While not > > perfect > > for that (there are MIL standards for this), > Do you mean in real HUDs? Real HUDs use a MIL standard font. Ours use Helvetica. I even tuned that for the use in HUDs, as the prior version didn't look good in tapes. I don't say that yours is worse, just that it can't be swapped without checking. And a MIL spec compliant font should be the ultimate goal, anyway. m. -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Erik Hofman schrieb: > HB-GRAL wrote: >> But first - what do you think about this new font? Should I go further >> or do you prefere the old pixel fonts for the GUI? What do you think >> about readability and this new look? > > I think the new font looks nice and clean. If it where up to me I think > it should be included. Thank you Erik. I try to clean up the work and then someone can commit my new free fonts (or not). It will take a lot of time to create and rework a font. So there is a lot of time for the decision if it is worth or not. Meantime I am re-reading the comment from Melchior and I see that there is maybe an unfortunate mix of GUI and HUD style in my purpose. I tried to work on ONE font with different versions which can be used for many purposes in FlightGear - maybe this is not a good idea. > > Now regarding removing fonts; don't bother, they are there is someone > needs theme or wants to use them in their aircraft (panels). So I would > advise against spending any time for that. I was looking to the source and data and tried to figure out which fonts are in use i.e. for instruments and put them on top (like lcd.txf or led.txf). First I made a directory 'old' for some unused old fonts like curlfont.txf, and a directory 'print' for documentation purposes - but maybe it is better to let all the fonts in the directory like it is. -Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > > Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). While not > perfect > for that (there are MIL standards for this), it would have to be checked if > an optimized GUI font is a reasonable replacement. Do you mean in real HUDs? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHx-OWdHqf8&feature=related I bet my whole font directory against that. Helvetica is not used in any HUD. Maybe it comes closer to something like 5345-44f.pdf but it is not Helvetica. Maybe 'Helvetica' is used as term for 'sans' in some MIL standard context. > > We went away from texture fonts as GUI default because they are blurry (though > a bit faster to render). Back to the future? Why not. Does it *look* like 'back to the future' for you? > No. The signs are modeled after an FAA regulation. Google for 5345-44f.pdf! This is a great work used in the sign textures in FlightGear of course. I wanted to say here I 'can' integrate this work in a modified font to have it also ready for some signage needs (there is no need at the moment of course). But maybe it is also not a good idea to mix it all. > > Why do you mess with my design?! I did not want to mess you with your design!? We support multiple styles -- you can switch > them through with Shift-F10. Just drop yours next to anthrax.xml. Sorry for using this name. Such mistakes happens to juniors like me from time to time. I changed the name to 'godblessyou.xml'. - Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Just for your information ... * HB-GRAL -- Tuesday 02 March 2010: > The new gui.txf could replace Helvetica.txf. Helvetica is the default font used in HUDs (e.g. in the F16). While not perfect for that (there are MIL standards for this), it would have to be checked if an optimized GUI font is a reasonable replacement. > 'gui.txf' is a 512x512 texture file We went away from texture fonts as GUI default because they are blurry (though a bit faster to render). Back to the future? > gui.txf or a 'clone' can also be used for signage because it should > contain all the characters used in Textures.high/Signs. No. The signs are modeled after an FAA regulation. Google for 5345-44f.pdf! > And here is a changed gui/styles/anthrax.xml Why do you mess with my design?! We support multiple styles -- you can switch them through with Shift-F10. Just drop yours next to anthrax.xml. (BTW: anthrax.xml was really meant to be darker. It should be anthracite, but anthrax was so much more popular back then, hence the name. Unfortunately, I had a bad monitor. The style looked good there, but I was unpleasantly surprised when I first saw it on a good monitor ... my local version is fixed.) > or do you prefere the old pixel fonts for the GUI? I do. Not that it matters. I preferred a clean, no-nonsense property system, too ... like the majority of the coders did, btw. m. -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
HB-GRAL wrote: > But first - what do you think about this new font? Should I go further > or do you prefere the old pixel fonts for the GUI? What do you think > about readability and this new look? I think the new font looks nice and clean. If it where up to me I think it should be included. Now regarding removing fonts; don't bother, they are there is someone needs theme or wants to use them in their aircraft (panels). So I would advise against spending any time for that. Erik -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] New GUI Font
Hello all I started to create a new font for the FlightGear GUI the get better readability and to refresh the 'look' of the GUI. My work is based on Allerta (OFL) and I hope it could do a good job. My new FG-fonts are avaiable in .ttf and txf and are almost ready for use within FlightGear (of course some of the menus needs some minor changes). During my changes I was looking to the "Font" directory and found a lot of fonts I think nobody needs in the base package? So I am also doing some changes to this directory. I do not know who is the maintainer of this directory (sorry I did not ask in the list before). The new gui.txf could replace Helvetica.txf. 'gui.txf' is a 512x512 texture file and has more characters than current Helvetica.txf. Also some special characters like arrows etc. Numbers are monospaced and the '0' (Zero) has a 'slash' (to do a better job i.e. for waypoints like 'KLO08' or in callsigns). gui.txf or a 'clone' can also be used for signage because it should contain all the characters used in Textures.high/Signs. For my font tests I changed my private data/Font directory and data/gui/styles/antrax.xml of the base package, and also preferences.xml (for changes in the HUD). With 'classic' colors: http://www.sablonier.ch/flightgear/guifont/guifont_10.png Or as 'variant', if someone wants to change the colors: http://www.sablonier.ch/flightgear/guifont/guifont_9.png The new 'Font' directory is avaibale here: git clone git://gitorious.org/fgguifont/fgguifont.git And here is a changed gui/styles/anthrax.xml http://www.sablonier.ch/flightgear/guifont/antrax.xml But first - what do you think about this new font? Should I go further or do you prefere the old pixel fonts for the GUI? What do you think about readability and this new look? Thanks- Yves -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
