Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Jungshik Shin]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:
> Jungshik Shin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > The current Korean orthography looks like a combination
> > > of KSC-5607.1987 with the complete Hangul Syllables
> > > area of Unicode.
> >
> >  I'm sorry to be 'pedantic'.  Strictly speaking, this way of talking
> > about Korean orthography (in terms of precomposed syllables) is not quite
> > right.  You have to say what consonants and vowels are allowed/required in
> > modern Korean orthography just like you talk about what alphabetic letters
> > are required of any given language represented with Latin/Greek/Cyrillic
> > alphabets.
>
> I'm not sure I understand your objection here.


> But it is just a matter of terminology...

  I'm sorry I got you confused. For a moment, I forgot
that 'orthography' in fcpackage context has a specialized meaning
different from its usual meaning. I was way too 'pedantic' writing
the paragraph above from the point of view of an 'amature linguist'.
In Korean orthography standard (both of ROK and DPRK), only consonants
and vowels allowed  are enumerated as opposed to listing all their
possible combinations because listing consonants and vowels are more
than enough. However, in fcpackage context, the situation is different.

> I'd say they definitely are "composed syllables". And since it is possible
> to render Korean syllables by combining pieces at rendering time
> (Pango can do this for core X fonts, e.g.),

  I have more to ask/suggest  about Pango's rendering of U+1100 Jamos
and other issues in Korean rendering(e.g. Uniscribe-like OT support for
Korean). I'll try to do that soon offline.


> > > However, there are fonts out there that only have
> > > the Hangul syllables in  KSC-5607.1987 ... one example
> > > would be the freely available 'Baekmuk Batang' font;

> >   Not any more. A new set of Baekmuk fonts with
> > the full coverage of 11,172 precomposed modern syllables have been
...
> > .
> > In addition to having the full set of 11,172 syllables (precomposed,

> I just downloaded that, and it looks like the 'Dotum' font
> still only covers the KSC-5607.1987, just like in the
> baekmuk-ttf-2.0.tar.gz that Red Hat ships currently.

   You're right. Dotum still has only 2350 syllables.
Now this brings us back to the problem you raised. Basically, I agree
with you that fonts with only KS C 5601-1987 coverage have to regarded
as supporting Korean by fontconfig. Especially, this loosening of the
criteria is also required by bdf/pcf fonts or bdf-turned-sbit-only
TTFs(that will replace bdf/pcf fonts sometime in the future according
to what's been discussed today).

  How about introducing 'level' concept to fontconfig?
Characters in level 1 are absolutely required (in case of Korean,
2350 Hangul syllables and some more in symbol block of KS X 1001:1998).
Level2 has some optional characters (for Korean, it'd be additional 8000+
syllables and 4800+ Hanjas in KS X 1001:1998), Level3 has even rarer
characters (for Korean, it'd be Hanjas in KS X 1002) and so on


> > > I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
> > > only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;
> > > my understanding is that they are sufficient for the
> > > vast majority of modern Korean text.
> >
> >   I would omit 'vast'. :-).
> >
> >Thanks to the dominance of MS-Windows in Korea as the leading
> > desktop platform, Koreans are not any more restricted to 2350
...
> > http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131388).
>
> I defer to your expertise in this area.

  I just like to make sure that this was only meant to tell you
the current situation in Korean materials on the net and that
I still agree with your suggestion about 'ko.orth' file in
fcpackage.


> > locale can be used with Korean input method Ami
> > (with my patch to allow input of  all 11,172 syllables:
> > http://jshin.net/faq/ami-1.0.11.utf8.patch.gz. It'd be nice if
...

> Is there any reason that it hasn't gotten into the standard AMI?

  I also like to know :-). I sent the patch to both the
maintainer/author of  Ami and the Ami mailing list where he is active
in late April/early May, but somehow I haven't heard back from him.
Perhaps, I'll once more try to contact him.

  BTW, to make it work under ko_KR.UTF-8, XLC_LOCALE file for
ko_KR.UTF-8 should list ksc5601.1987-0 before jisx0208.1983.-0


   Jungshik


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Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Owen Taylor]

Jungshik Shin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:
> 
> > The current Korean orthography looks like a combination
> > of KSC-5607.1987 with the complete Hangul Syllables
> > area of Unicode.
> 
>  I'm sorry to be 'pedantic'.  Strictly speaking, this way of talking
> about Korean orthography (in terms of precomposed syllables) is not quite
> right.  You have to say what consonants and vowels are allowed/required in
> modern Korean orthography just like you talk about what alphabetic letters
> are required of any given language represented with Latin/Greek/Cyrillic
> alphabets.

I'm not sure I understand your objection here. 

Are you saying that:

 - The glyphs in this type of Korean font don't correspond to syllables?
 - The glyphs in this type of KOrean font aren't composed out of 
   standard pieces?

I'd say they definitely are "composed syllables". And since it is possible
to render Korean syllables by combining pieces at rendering time
(Pango can do this for core X fonts, e.g.), I think it's also legitimate
to say they are "precomposed syllables

But it is just a matter of terminology... 

> > However, there are fonts out there that only have
> > the Hangul syllables in  KSC-5607.1987 ... one example
> > would be the freely available 'Baekmuk Batang' font;
> 
>   Not any more. A new set of Baekmuk fonts with
> the full coverage of 11,172 precomposed modern syllables have been
> available for quite a while (over two years?)  although they may not
> have been included in popular Linux distributions made outside Korea.
> You can get them at
> .
> In addition to having the full set of 11,172 syllables (precomposed,
> modern, complete), several glitches have been fixed.

I just downloaded that, and it looks like the 'Dotum' font 
still only covers the KSC-5607.1987, just like in the 
baekmuk-ttf-2.0.tar.gz that Red Hat ships currently.

[..] 

> 
> > I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
> > only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;
> > my understanding is that they are sufficient for the
> > vast majority of modern Korean text.
> 
>   I would omit 'vast'. :-).
> 
>Thanks to the dominance of MS-Windows in Korea as the leading
> desktop platform, Koreans are not any more restricted to 2350
> syllables. (in the past, they resort to JOHAB encoding to achieve the
> same.)  MS Windows supports CP949 (an extension of EUC-KR based on KS X
> 1001:1998) and ordinary Korean users have no way whether a syllable they
> type in belongs to KS X 1001:1998 or not. The result is that more and
> more documents (especially in web BBS', emails and on-line chatrooms where
> 'colloquial' - it'd better be called 'slang' of the net subculture often
> times cryptic to people like me.) Korean with intentional/unconcious use
> of non-orthography-compliant syllables is widely 'spoken'.) in Korean
> include syllables outside KS X 1001:1998. (see
> http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131388).
 
I defer to your expertise in this area.

>   Even under Linux, there's no more restriction because ko_KR.UTF-8
> locale can be used with Korean input method Ami
> (with my patch to allow input of  all 11,172 syllables:
> http://jshin.net/faq/ami-1.0.11.utf8.patch.gz. It'd be nice if
> distributions like RH and Mandrake pick up this patch so that Linux
> users can be on par with MS Windows users.) Probably, the same is
> true of MacOS X.

Is there any reason that it hasn't gotten into the standard AMI?

Regards,
Owen

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Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Keith Packard]

Around 17 o'clock on Aug 14, Jungshik Shin wrote:

> > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:
> 
> > > I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
> > > only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;
> 
>   Despite what I wrote in my previous message, I agree that
> this is the right thing to do. This may not be an issue any more once
> most fonts are populated with the full set of 11,172 syllables (just
> like Baekmuk).

Ok, I can do that.  When you've both fonts with the older and newer sets, 
you'll get ransom notes for documents that use codepoints not present in 
the older font, but the "right" fix is to go and get reasonable fonts; the 
alternate fix is to place the complete font first in the list.

I'll go dig up a unicode table for KSC-5607.1987 and replace the existing 
ko map with that.

Keith PackardXFree86 Core TeamHP Cambridge Research Lab


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Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Jungshik Shin]

> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:

> > I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
> > only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;

  Despite what I wrote in my previous message, I agree that
this is the right thing to do. This may not be an issue any more once
most fonts are populated with the full set of 11,172 syllables (just
like Baekmuk).

  Jungshik

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Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Keith Packard]

Around 14 o'clock on Aug 14, Owen Taylor wrote:

> The current Korean orthography looks like a combination
> of KSC-5607.1987 with the complete Hangul Syllables
> area of Unicode.
>
> However, there are fonts out there that only have
> the Hangul syllables in  KSC-5607.1987 ... one example
> would be the freely available 'Baekmuk Batang' font;
> such fonts are *not* currently recognized as supporting
> Korean.

I'm not happy with this situation as well, but I'm not quite sure what the 
right answer is.  A document using glyphs from KSC-5601.1992 that aren't in 
KSC-5607.1987 will end up using two fonts if the 5607 font is first in the 
list.

Keith PackardXFree86 Core TeamHP Cambridge Research Lab


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Re: [Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Jungshik Shin]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Owen Taylor wrote:

> The current Korean orthography looks like a combination
> of KSC-5607.1987 with the complete Hangul Syllables
> area of Unicode.

 I'm sorry to be 'pedantic'.  Strictly speaking, this way of talking
about Korean orthography (in terms of precomposed syllables) is not quite
right.  You have to say what consonants and vowels are allowed/required in
modern Korean orthography just like you talk about what alphabetic letters
are required of any given language represented with Latin/Greek/Cyrillic
alphabets.

> However, there are fonts out there that only have
> the Hangul syllables in  KSC-5607.1987 ... one example
> would be the freely available 'Baekmuk Batang' font;

  Not any more. A new set of Baekmuk fonts with
the full coverage of 11,172 precomposed modern syllables have been
available for quite a while (over two years?)  although they may not
have been included in popular Linux distributions made outside Korea.
You can get them at
.
In addition to having the full set of 11,172 syllables (precomposed,
modern, complete), several glitches have been fixed.

> such fonts are *not* currently recognized as supporting
> Korean.

 Nonetheless, you do have a point and I totally agree with you
on it.

> If this was just a matter of "preferring fonts with
> all the Hangul syllables in Unicode when all other things
> are equal", then this wouldn't be a big problem, but

  This is a reasonable thing to do.


> it's more serious than this:
>
>  - You can't specify such a font in a generic alias,
>and have it preferentially selected for Korean language
>tags.
>
>  - You can't specify such a font in a generic alias,
>and have it selected at all if you have fonts
>with the complete orthography.
>
>  - fontconfig statements like "disable hinting for
>Korean fonts" don't work properly with such a font.

  These are certainly problematic.

> I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
> only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;
> my understanding is that they are sufficient for the
> vast majority of modern Korean text.

  I would omit 'vast'. :-).

   Thanks to the dominance of MS-Windows in Korea as the leading
desktop platform, Koreans are not any more restricted to 2350
syllables. (in the past, they resort to JOHAB encoding to achieve the
same.)  MS Windows supports CP949 (an extension of EUC-KR based on KS X
1001:1998) and ordinary Korean users have no way whether a syllable they
type in belongs to KS X 1001:1998 or not. The result is that more and
more documents (especially in web BBS', emails and on-line chatrooms where
'colloquial' - it'd better be called 'slang' of the net subculture often
times cryptic to people like me.) Korean with intentional/unconcious use
of non-orthography-compliant syllables is widely 'spoken'.) in Korean
include syllables outside KS X 1001:1998. (see
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131388).

  Even under Linux, there's no more restriction because ko_KR.UTF-8
locale can be used with Korean input method Ami
(with my patch to allow input of  all 11,172 syllables:
http://jshin.net/faq/ami-1.0.11.utf8.patch.gz. It'd be nice if
distributions like RH and Mandrake pick up this patch so that Linux
users can be on par with MS Windows users.) Probably, the same is
true of MacOS X.

   Jungshik

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[Fonts]Korean orthography for fontconfig

[Owen Taylor]

The current Korean orthography looks like a combination
of KSC-5607.1987 with the complete Hangul Syllables
area of Unicode.

However, there are fonts out there that only have
the Hangul syllables in  KSC-5607.1987 ... one example
would be the freely available 'Baekmuk Batang' font;
such fonts are *not* currently recognized as supporting
Korean.

If this was just a matter of "preferring fonts with
all the Hangul syllables in Unicode when all other things 
are equal", then this wouldn't be a big problem, but
it's more serious than this:

 - You can't specify such a font in a generic alias,
   and have it preferentially selected for Korean language
   tags. 

 - You can't specify such a font in a generic alias,
   and have it selected at all if you have fonts
   with the complete orthography.

 - fontconfig statements like "disable hinting for 
   Korean fonts" don't work properly with such a font.

I think the right thing to do is probably just to use
only the KSC-5607.1987 syllables in the Korean orthography;
my understanding is that they are sufficient for the
vast majority of modern Korean text. 

Regards,
Owen

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