Re: another nose for the grindstone
Hi Mark We'd love to have you with us. On 17.01.2005 05:18:23 Mark Brucks wrote: I'd like to join the fop development group. I've been an xsl/fop user for the last year or so (generating PDF), but several new projects I'm proposing have a need for a robust and complete awt renderer, and I'd like to devote some time to ensuring this happens. I have a little bit of time in the near term to commit to the project, and I hope much more time starting in the April time frame. I'd like to use the next 2 months to come up to speed, then dive in to serious work when more time is available. The AWT renderer is currently missing in CVS HEAD. It would be great if someone took up that task. To build that renderer you can look at the code from the maintenance branch (or FOP 0.20.5) for reference. Our reference renderer in CVS HEAD is the PDF renderer (like before). Personally, I'd rather call it Java2D renderer, not AWT renderer, because Java2D is essentially the name of the API you code against. AWT is, as the name says, a windowing toolkit, not primarily a graphics API. I need some advice. I've learned enough about xsl and fop to get my job done, but there are lots of holes in my knowledge base. I'd like to spend a little bit of time carefully reading the XSL spec. Should I read the XSL V1.1 working draft (in anticipation of things to come), or should I stick with the V1.0 recommendation (which I assume is what the new version of fop will implement). The recommendation is still the main reference. Glen Mazza already started investigating the 1.1 WD (ex. bookmarks) and it might be helpful sometimes to consult the 1.1 WD because it seems to be somewhat more verbose. It's good to prepare for 1.1 but as long as it's in WD phase the focus should remain on the 1.0 Rec for the time being. Do the development and design documents that are available on-line relate to the root/trunk/redesign version, or do they still describe the maintenance branch? They refer to CVS HEAD. If they are not up-to-date, they should be updated. Is there a development schedule or a prioritized list of features to be implemented? A development schedule is always difficult in an all-volunteer project. I think it's pretty realistic now to target an initial release in late summer 2005. I'm currently working off this list: http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics-fop/FOPWorkEstimates But this list isn't binding. You're free to choose what you like to work on. If you want to build the Java2D renderer, that's great. If you want to help with the layout engine, even better. If you start a task simply notify us what you're working on so we don't have duplicate effort. Is anybody else actively working on the awt rendered for the next release? No, not at the moment. Since this is my first foray into open-source development, any and all advice is welcome. The advice is simple: Choose something to work on, notify this list (if it's something bigger), start hacking and in the end send patches via Bugzilla. Of course, this is a bit simplistic but essentially this is all what you need to know for now. :-) If you have questions simply ask. We're happy to help you getting started. Jeremias Maerki
Re: marketing Defoe (was: another nose for the grindstone)
Peter, it's ok if you make other people aware of your project but the way you did that in your last post disturbs me. We know that you disagree with FOP's approach, but I would have preferred a more constructive form of making Mark aware of Defoe. Maybe I'm overreacting... On 17.01.2005 06:01:27 Peter B. West wrote: Mark, Project Defoe http://defoe.sourceforge.net/, formerly Fop alt-design, is focussed on a Java 2D renderer, robust and complete. By complete I mean, in particular, able to correctly handle last-page, keeps, table auto-layout and large files. Don't make the mistake of thinking that, because FOP has been around for a long time, it is only the place to be for open source XSL-FO development. Rather, ask why, if it has been around for such a long time, these problems haven't been solved. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all software problems are solved by simply applying more resources. Having said that, let me add that the project seems to have found its shepherd, in the form of Finn Bock. Many of the long-standing innovations of alt-design in the property handling have at last been introduced by Finn, who has the happy knack of being able to completely rewrite large chunks of FOP by applying a wide-ranging but complete set of changes. He may well solve FOP's remaining critical problems in the same way. The point is, that FOP needs a major design overhaul. I'm doing that at Defoe, and Finn is doing it, piecemeal, at FOP. His focus though is not on Java 2D, and getting a complete and robust implementation of the 2D renderer will depend on Finn's new design. If you want to know more about where FOP is headed, ask Finn. Defoe is Java 5.0 based. If that doesn't work for you, don't bother with Defoe. Otherwise, if you are interested in avenues for your XSL-FO development efforts, I am happy to talk to you. Jeremias Maerki
block-container improved
I've just checked in a bunch of changes for block-containers complete with test cases. I'd appreciate if someone could run these tests and check if I'm interpreting correctly. The whole start-indent inheritance thing is quite interesting as it produces strange effects from a stylesheet developer's POV. No wonder some commercial implementors chose to break inheritance in certain cases. The test case where you can observe this effect is block-container3.xml. block-container4.xml is interesting, too, because the way I did the block-containers made me add start-indent=end-indent=0pt on the nested blocks so they don't inherit indents from the block-container. Jeremias Maerki
Re: marketing Defoe
Jeremias, Do you disagree with the assessment? Clearly people might, but I didn't say anything I don't believe is the truth about the state of FOP. If it is true, isn't it fair to let newcomers know the state of play? Finn has already talked about a radically different approach in order to solve the large files problem, and I'm sure he will present you with a swag of patches to do just that at some time in the future. I just hope he doesn't do it so soon as to render Defoe moot. One of its underlying features will be what is effectively a stream parsing mechanism. It's acceptance, which I take to be a fait accompli, there being no other design contenders, will be particularly galling for me, in light of the the blanket refusal to consider it when I proposed it, as I still do. I think I have earned the right to speak my mind on these issues. Peter Jeremias Maerki wrote: Peter, it's ok if you make other people aware of your project but the way you did that in your last post disturbs me. We know that you disagree with FOP's approach, but I would have preferred a more constructive form of making Mark aware of Defoe. Maybe I'm overreacting...
Re: marketing Defoe
Peter, this is not about the question whether I disagree with the assessment. You might be right, you might be wrong. I can't tell, yet, because I'm still working my way into the new layout engine. My reaction was triggered by the way you said these things, not by any technical statement. But as I said, I may be overreacting and I may not have filtered everything through all the is-written and is-in-foreign-language filters. On 17.01.2005 12:07:47 Peter B. West wrote: Jeremias, Do you disagree with the assessment? Clearly people might, but I didn't say anything I don't believe is the truth about the state of FOP. If it is true, isn't it fair to let newcomers know the state of play? Finn has already talked about a radically different approach in order to solve the large files problem, and I'm sure he will present you with a swag of patches to do just that at some time in the future. I just hope he doesn't do it so soon as to render Defoe moot. One of its underlying features will be what is effectively a stream parsing mechanism. It's acceptance, which I take to be a fait accompli, there being no other design contenders, will be particularly galling for me, in light of the the blanket refusal to consider it when I proposed it, as I still do. I think I have earned the right to speak my mind on these issues. Peter Jeremias Maerki wrote: Peter, it's ok if you make other people aware of your project but the way you did that in your last post disturbs me. We know that you disagree with FOP's approach, but I would have preferred a more constructive form of making Mark aware of Defoe. Maybe I'm overreacting... Jeremias Maerki
Re: marketing Defoe
Peter, FWIW, I was shocked by the tone of your statement as well. Not so much by any misleading or such. Rather, it was more in the way that I'm shocked by the manner that, in the US companies can discuss differences with other products in their advertisements. Had you also 'advertised' FOray in the same way you promoted Defoe, it might've taken a bit of the tone down (I don't know--you didn't mention FOray so I don't *know* how it would've come off). In any case, as I suspect is true for with the rest of the FOP team, I am grateful to your continued contributions to the FOP project, and I hope your contribution will continue. Web Maestro Clay On Jan 17, 2005, at 3:07 AM, Peter B. West wrote: Jeremias, Do you disagree with the assessment? Clearly people might, but I didn't say anything I don't believe is the truth about the state of FOP. If it is true, isn't it fair to let newcomers know the state of play? Finn has already talked about a radically different approach in order to solve the large files problem, and I'm sure he will present you with a swag of patches to do just that at some time in the future. I just hope he doesn't do it so soon as to render Defoe moot. One of its underlying features will be what is effectively a stream parsing mechanism. It's acceptance, which I take to be a fait accompli, there being no other design contenders, will be particularly galling for me, in light of the the blanket refusal to consider it when I proposed it, as I still do. I think I have earned the right to speak my mind on these issues. Peter Jeremias Maerki wrote: Peter, it's ok if you make other people aware of your project but the way you did that in your last post disturbs me. We know that you disagree with FOP's approach, but I would have preferred a more constructive form of making Mark aware of Defoe. Maybe I'm overreacting... Web Maestro Clay -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/ My religion is simple. My religion is kindness. - HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet
Re: marketing Defoe
(Don't let Peter rattle you, Jeremias--he's just jealous that I've found more XSL spec bugs than him. ;) Our delays are mostly related to advanced issues concerning layout, and the type of parser used doesn't have much effect on this issue. So I don't share Peter's conviction that FOP is in need of a major design overhaul--or that Defoe's layout is as complete as it needs to be either, for the matter. Both sides have a lot of work to do. Glen --- Jeremias Maerki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, this is not about the question whether I disagree with the assessment. You might be right, you might be wrong. I can't tell, yet, because I'm still working my way into the new layout engine. My reaction was triggered by the way you said these things, not by any technical statement. But as I said, I may be overreacting and I may not have filtered everything through all the is-written and is-in-foreign-language filters.
Re: marketing Defoe
Glen Mazza wrote: (Don't let Peter rattle you, Jeremias--he's just jealous that I've found more XSL spec bugs than him. ;) You have a lead I am unlikely to overhaul. Our delays are mostly related to advanced issues concerning layout, and the type of parser used doesn't have much effect on this issue. Time will tell. So I don't share Peter's conviction that FOP is in need of a major design overhaul--or that Defoe's layout is as complete as it needs to be either, for the matter. There is no Defoe layout ... yet... Both sides have a lot of work to do. ...so yes, there is a lot of work to be done on Defoe. Glen Peter PS Thanks to Clay for the feedback.
Stability Question
I've considering embedding FOP is a product I'm developing. How stable and complete is the puppy? -- Charles H. Griswold III Managing Partner LogixPartners, Inc.
Re: Stability Question
Charles, I believe this is more a question for [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED] to subscribe), but... On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Charles Griswold wrote: I've considering embedding FOP is a product I'm developing. How stable and complete is the puppy? One of my clients found it stable enough to process 300,000+ bills per month. And it's complete enough for said client to do what it needs to do. Many of the areas which are not complete (e.g., keep-*, etc.) have workarounds which can be implemented. All development has moved away from the 'release' Maintenance version (fop-0.20.5) in favor of the CVS TRUNK version (fop-1.0) to ensure all available resources go towards the re-design. We welcome constructive assistance (i.e., HELP WANTED!! :-p). For more information about what's complete and what isn't, check out the FOP Compliance page[1], which identifies 'level of compliance' (for lack of a better term). Good luck! and Welcome! [1] FOP Compliance http://xml.apache.org/fop/compliance.html Web Maestro Clay -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/ My religion is simple. My religion is kindness. - HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet
Another Future User Reporting In
Web Maestro Clay, You can add my name to the list of people who intend to use FOP as part of a larger product/service... FOP has a perfectly positioned functionally to meet the needs of may application developers We are very interested in you perception of where the project is currently. Thanks for you comments... Great work I read and save every e-mail. Paul -- Paul B. Hill, [EMAIL PROTECTED] GURU NETworks, Inc. 4100 Lafayette Center Drive, Suite 103 Chantilly, VA 20151 Phone: 703.961.1403, Fax: 703.961.1410 HTTP://www.gurunet.net
Re: Another Future User Reporting In
On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Paul Hill wrote: Web Maestro Clay, You can add my name to the list of people who intend to use FOP as part of a larger product/service... FOP has a perfectly positioned functionally to meet the needs of may application developers We are very interested in you perception of where the project is currently. Thanks for you comments... Great work I read and save every e-mail. Paul Thank you for your kind comments, and welcome to the Apache FOP community! Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer beyond the Apache FOP web site's Status page[1]. As for the best estimate of a release of FOP 1.0, I'd check this POST by Jeremias[2]. FWIW, the FOP HEAD the branch is where *all* development is happening, and FOP 1.0 will be the result of work on HEAD. As with most Open Source projects, this is not a firm date, but is probably the best guess anyone could give. Thank you again for your kind words. BTW, I suspect this type off discussion would be better served in [EMAIL PROTECTED], as this mailing list (fop-dev@xml.apache.org) is primarily for developers to ask questions regarding PATCH submissions, bug reports and design issues. [1] http://xml.apache.org/fop/status.html [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=fop- [EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=10437 Web Maestro Clay -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/ My religion is simple. My religion is kindness. - HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet
Re: Stability Question
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:38, The Web Maestro wrote: Charles, I believe this is more a question for [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED] to subscribe), but... On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Charles Griswold wrote: I've considering embedding FOP is a product I'm developing. How stable and complete is the puppy? One of my clients found it stable enough to process 300,000+ bills per month. And it's complete enough for said client to do what it needs to do. Continuing with the positive news I have a client who uses fop embedded (within tomcat as well as a custom server application) since many years. We have produced well over 4 million PDF files using fop in this embedded mode without problems. Manuel
RE: FOP code in FOray [WAS: Preview for a general XSL-FO processing API]
Victor Mote wrote (on November 28, 2004): The code in the fop-maint branch is code that has not yet been peeled off into a FOray module. All of it eventually will be. The case of the app module, which will eventually contain the API that you are looking for is in an especially bad state ATM. I renamed the CLI class Fop to FOray and also moved it into the FOray apps package (it seemed especially confusing to ask users to start Foray from either a class or package with fop in its name). However, all of the other related classes still live on the fop-maint side. So the main class you are looking for is org.foray.app.FOray, but if you follow in a debugger, you will quickly be over in org.apache.fop.apps.Starter, and most of the rest of that package will look pretty similar to FOP's maintenance branch. The reason for this state is that I want to make major changes to that outer layer of the API, but it won't get done until I get a bit further along in getting the FOTree peeled off. I hope that helps. If you try to use FOray ATM, you may get errors on properties, which is also currently in an ugly state, half using the old scheme and half using the new scheme. I am not aware of any actual errors ATM, but there almost certainly are. My general advice would be to wait until I have it in a beta quality state again, but the other option is just to let me know if a bug is causing you problems. Hi Jeremias: I think this is ready for JAFOP now. I didn't want to take the time to complete this yet, but, for reasons unrelated to this thread, I did, a couple of weeks ago, complete the FOray Application API work. You should now be able to follow what is going on there much better. Everything that was in the fop-maint branch has been moved to a FOray module, so there is no longer a need to download that branch to do a FOray build. And the jumping around between FOP and FOray is totally eliminated now. BTW, this means that FOray is now divided into 12 modules with what are IMO the correct dependencies between each module. That doesn't mean that everything is working right yet, just that those who are interested can see how I think the big picture fits together. The APIs and inner workings of Font and FOTree are substantially cleaned up as well. AreaTree and Pioneer Layout still need much work, which is in progress ATM. You'll see ugly output in spots as I work through them. The documentation for the FOray API is here: http://www.foray.org/module/app/index.html By way of analogy, FOraySession is the old Driver class, and FOrayDocument and FOrayTarget were broken out from the old StreamRenderer class. You'll probably get around to adding FOray to JAFOP before I do, but I'll be glad to help any way I can. Since I don't use any of these implementations for embedded applications, I may very well need to add some options that don't seem obvious to me ATM. And it is always probable that the documentation needs more work. Your comments and criticisms are most welcome. Victor Mote
Re: Another Future User Reporting In
I have been on the e-mail list since June 2004 Its been an interesting project to track. Paul - The Web Maestro wrote: On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Paul Hill wrote: Web Maestro Clay, You can add my name to the list of people who intend to use FOP as part of a larger product/service... FOP has a perfectly positioned functionally to meet the needs of may application developers We are very interested in you perception of where the project is currently. Thanks for you comments... Great work I read and save every e-mail. Paul Thank you for your kind comments, and welcome to the Apache FOP community! Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer beyond the Apache FOP web site's Status page[1]. As for the best estimate of a release of FOP 1.0, I'd check this POST by Jeremias[2]. FWIW, the FOP HEAD the branch is where *all* development is happening, and FOP 1.0 will be the result of work on HEAD. As with most Open Source projects, this is not a firm date, but is probably the best guess anyone could give. Thank you again for your kind words. BTW, I suspect this type off discussion would be better served in [EMAIL PROTECTED], as this mailing list (fop-dev@xml.apache.org) is primarily for developers to ask questions regarding PATCH submissions, bug reports and design issues. [1] http://xml.apache.org/fop/status.html [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=fop- [EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=10437 Web Maestro Clay -- Paul B. Hill, [EMAIL PROTECTED] GURU NETworks, Inc. 4100 Lafayette Center Drive, Suite 103 Chantilly, VA 20151 Phone: 703.961.1403, Fax: 703.961.1410 HTTP://www.gurunet.net
Re: cvs commit: xml-fop/src/java/org/apache/fop/layoutmgr BlockLayoutManager.java
Yes, I think that's my fault. I believe that was related to the space-before and space-after properties which I was trying (unsuccessfully) to fix. This is a very complex portion of the code. Glen --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jeremias2005/01/17 10:59:50 Modified:src/java/org/apache/fop/layoutmgr BlockLayoutManager.java Log: Adding todo item for a static variable. Revision ChangesPath 1.37 +1 -4 xml-fop/src/java/org/apache/fop/layoutmgr/BlockLayoutManager.java Index: BlockLayoutManager.java === RCS file: /home/cvs/xml-fop/src/java/org/apache/fop/layoutmgr/BlockLayoutManager.java,v retrieving revision 1.36 retrieving revision 1.37 diff -u -r1.36 -r1.37 --- BlockLayoutManager.java 12 Jan 2005 12:03:00 - 1.36 +++ BlockLayoutManager.java 17 Jan 2005 18:59:50 - 1.37 @@ -22,13 +22,9 @@ import java.util.List; import org.apache.fop.datatypes.PercentBase; -import org.apache.fop.fo.FONode; -import org.apache.fop.fo.FObj; -import org.apache.fop.fo.properties.CommonMarginBlock; import org.apache.fop.fonts.Font; import org.apache.fop.area.Area; import org.apache.fop.area.Block; -import org.apache.fop.area.BlockParent; import org.apache.fop.area.LineArea; import org.apache.fop.traits.SpaceVal; import org.apache.fop.traits.MinOptMax; @@ -54,6 +50,7 @@ */ private MinOptMax foBlockSpaceBefore = null; // need to retain foBlockSpaceAfter from previous instantiation +//TODO this is very bad for multi-threading. fix me! private static MinOptMax foBlockSpaceAfter = null; private MinOptMax prevFoBlockSpaceAfter = null; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cvs commit: xml-fop/src/java/org/apache/fop/layoutmgr BlockLayoutManager.java
No problem. I stumbled upon it when I realized that I wasn't handling space-before|after correctly in in-flow block-containers. I'll see if I can do something about it. On 17.01.2005 20:17:35 Glen Mazza wrote: Yes, I think that's my fault. I believe that was related to the space-before and space-after properties which I was trying (unsuccessfully) to fix. This is a very complex portion of the code. Jeremias Maerki
Re: commit to fop
Hi Renaud, On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 11:46:10PM +0100, Renaud Richardet wrote: *** documentation *** please could you tell me about the state of the following documentations: - xml.apache.org/fop/dev: this documentation refers to 0.20, right? dev/implement.html is a short writeup of the then plans for FOP HEAD. When you see layout managers mentioned, it is about FOP HEAD. design/index.html is Keiron Liddle and Karen Lease's documentation at the start of the work on FOP HEAD. Much of it is still relevant. - cvs/... /xdocs/DnI: simon, thanks a lot for your xdoc DnI, it really helped me diving into the code. some parts of it have changed. i started to update it and made a patch for chapter 4.1 , you can find it attached to bug 33126. if it's useful for you, i'll continue. I am glad it helped you. I wrote it previous winter, and have not documented the changes of last summer. During that time Glen restructured the top level of FOP. Finn restructured the properties part. You are welcome to contribute to the documentation, both making it up to date again, and filling the gaps. I am about to rebuild my system. After it is up and running again, I will have a look at your contributions. - fop-wiki (http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics-fop/FOPProjectPages) seems pretty up to date. please tell me if FOPProjectTasks and FOPWorkEstimates are up to date. A few weeks ago I published some updates to the documentation on the wiki, see http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics-fop/FOPImplementationNotes. - are there some more key-docs? *** plans *** (thinking loud) i plan to start with some documentation update. i see there is a brand new site at xmlgraphics.apache.org/ to do. what about rtf-rendering? is peter herweg still active on it? i'm open, so please give me some hints on where i could start Regards, Simon -- Simon Pepping home page: http://www.leverkruid.nl
