Re: [foreman-dev] Propsing a move from Google Groups to Discourse

[Martin Bačovský]

For monitoring of what is going on on the foreman-dev/users I prefer to
consume it as a mailing list. It is lightweight and efficient and fits well
to my mail-centric workflow. I understand the benefits of the forum so I
gave Discourse a try to see how it works and if its mailing-list mode
promises smooth transition.

Things I like:
 - searching during new post compose
 - existence of "groups"
 - likes (even work when sent via mail)
 - rich-text messages, syntax highlighting, markdown
 - easy to share links to individual posts

Things I didn't like (I guess some are likely interference with the Gmail
client and some can be tuned up):
 - for some reason the threads are not kept together in my Gmail and the
messages from one thread are split into multiple threads even if they seem
to have same subject. I'm not sure why, it may be because I tuned the
account settings. I'll keep testing this
 - it took about 15 min since I sent mail to the time I received it from
the list (not sure what are the reaction times on the list today but this
won't improve it)
 - mails from Discourse take too much visual space - the footer saying how
to unsubscribe, reply or visit the topic  is included in each message.
First post should be enough. There is also extra username with avatar and
forum role next to User name in the From field. Is this configurable?
 - "likes" are only indicated in forum notifications but not in emails. If
you send '+1' to the list the like is added but no message is sent to the
users (just the notification)

So far for me it is difficult to follow the Discourse discussion using just
Gmail. For further testing I'd like to see more traffic in the Testing
area. I'd also appreciate experience with mailing-list mode testing form
others.

M.



On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 7:29 PM, Lukas Zapletal  wrote:

> Greg, I absolutely understand the motivation, every two years amount
> of programmers doubles. That is a crazy amount of newcomers. But these
> new people are not idiots and some technical level is required even
> for soft roles in our community. And we can make lists approachable
> very much like forums.
>
> Do not put me into position of blind and angry dev who can't accept
> something different or new. I understand all contexts and I say
> Discourse is an overkill that will bother me and possibly others. God
> I wish Google Groups are gone, but not for this.
>
> > * do nothing
>
> Honestly, yeah.
>
> > * switch mailing list for minimal improvement
>
> s/minimal/reasonable/
>
> > * switch to a forum, big upheaval but potential big payoff
>
> Sure, because there are no downsides.
>
> It's not about a list standard e-mail headers. The forum has different
> workflow and features and there will be new features as well while
> mailing list will stay the same. This will screw my inbox. This will
> but a wall between e-mail users and web forum users. This is what's
> this all about. And I think we don't need to go that direction.
>
> LZ
>
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Greg Sutcliffe 
> wrote:
> > One more thought occurred to me while I was out on the nursery pickup,
> so I'll drop here before I bow out for the weekend.
> >
> > Lukas, I think part of our disagreement is our different goals. As I
> highlighted in the last mail, users behave differently to devs. These days
> I consider myself more user than dev (when did I last contribute code), so
> I have a different world view.
> >
> > You want to protect a tried and trusted workflow, likely used by many
> here - that's fine. My job is to promote and develop the user community, so
> I see room for improvement.
> >
> > Here's the catch though... Our future devs, as a community, *come from*
> the user community. If we don't focus there, then we risk stagnating the
> dev community too.
> >
> > I won't deny this change is a larger net benefit for the user group. The
> case for the dev community is harder to argue. But there *is* benefit, and
> compared to running a list (for dev) and a forum (for users) I think the
> better argument is to use a forum for both.
> >
> > I don't expect to convince everyone, so this is going to come down to a
> group decision - but not for a while yet. We need to do more tests.
> >
> > Have a great weekend all,
> > Greg
> > --
> > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "foreman-dev" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to foreman-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
> --
> Later,
>   Lukas @lzap Zapletal
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "foreman-dev" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to foreman-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, 

Re: [foreman-dev] Propsing a move from Google Groups to Discourse

[Eric D Helms]

I think about this in two ways:

 1) Who are our lists for?
 2) How can we provide the most value through our lists to the audience?

Often I find digging up old threads to reference to users more painful than
it should be. Often, I am curious about popular or trending threads and
cannot find this information easily. This latter point I think can be
important for users and developers if there is a hot button breakage or
workflow topic being discussed. Often, when I want to answer a user, I find
the interface of email lists to be limited when it comes to including
screenshots, or writing code blocks. Further, I find asking users for
information to help with debugging difficult because they have limited
options for attachments or screenshots for inclusion. Often I find writing
structured emails for things like proposals or recaps difficult. 75% of the
time I am going to prefer email given it is what I am used to and my
primary interface for everything else. But 25%, I want something more.

If Discourse can help solve these problems, and make the users of the lists
experiences better when interacting amongst themselves as well as
developers then a big ole +1 from me. Mailing lists are great, times
change, users change, requirements change.

Mailing lists are for communication, and whatever increases communication
the most I am all for.

Eric

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Lukas Zapletal  wrote:

> Greg, I absolutely understand the motivation, every two years amount
> of programmers doubles. That is a crazy amount of newcomers. But these
> new people are not idiots and some technical level is required even
> for soft roles in our community. And we can make lists approachable
> very much like forums.
>
> Do not put me into position of blind and angry dev who can't accept
> something different or new. I understand all contexts and I say
> Discourse is an overkill that will bother me and possibly others. God
> I wish Google Groups are gone, but not for this.
>
> > * do nothing
>
> Honestly, yeah.
>
> > * switch mailing list for minimal improvement
>
> s/minimal/reasonable/
>
> > * switch to a forum, big upheaval but potential big payoff
>
> Sure, because there are no downsides.
>
> It's not about a list standard e-mail headers. The forum has different
> workflow and features and there will be new features as well while
> mailing list will stay the same. This will screw my inbox. This will
> but a wall between e-mail users and web forum users. This is what's
> this all about. And I think we don't need to go that direction.
>
> LZ
>
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Greg Sutcliffe 
> wrote:
> > One more thought occurred to me while I was out on the nursery pickup,
> so I'll drop here before I bow out for the weekend.
> >
> > Lukas, I think part of our disagreement is our different goals. As I
> highlighted in the last mail, users behave differently to devs. These days
> I consider myself more user than dev (when did I last contribute code), so
> I have a different world view.
> >
> > You want to protect a tried and trusted workflow, likely used by many
> here - that's fine. My job is to promote and develop the user community, so
> I see room for improvement.
> >
> > Here's the catch though... Our future devs, as a community, *come from*
> the user community. If we don't focus there, then we risk stagnating the
> dev community too.
> >
> > I won't deny this change is a larger net benefit for the user group. The
> case for the dev community is harder to argue. But there *is* benefit, and
> compared to running a list (for dev) and a forum (for users) I think the
> better argument is to use a forum for both.
> >
> > I don't expect to convince everyone, so this is going to come down to a
> group decision - but not for a while yet. We need to do more tests.
> >
> > Have a great weekend all,
> > Greg
> > --
> > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "foreman-dev" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to foreman-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
> --
> Later,
>   Lukas @lzap Zapletal
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "foreman-dev" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to foreman-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Eric D. Helms
Red Hat Engineering

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