Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 06:05:33PM -0600, Scott Robison wrote: On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: git branch -D name Eh, filesystems let you delete files. Unlike most filesystems, git lets you restore your deleted branches (yes, provided you don't gc the repo). Then just use a file system and various command line tools! But seriously, it's a philosophical difference between those who want to be able to rewrite their history to what they should have done and those who want to keep the history around to see what they did. I can understand for personal projects people might want stuff to disappear. And I can understand vandals want to make stuff disappear when they attack a system. But in a serious, large project there are often requirements for an audit trail. There is no downside to this given the cheapness of backing storage. And it can prevent all sorts of problems. In the places I work the problem tracking system entries are immutable. And while a lot of those places don't use source control for various reasons when they do use them the source changes and history of who did what and when he did it are also immutable. /jl -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachments / \ Code Blue or Go Home! Encrypted email preferred PGP Key 2048R/DA65BC04 ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:18 AM, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 06:05:33PM -0600, Scott Robison wrote: On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: git branch -D name Eh, filesystems let you delete files. Unlike most filesystems, git lets you restore your deleted branches (yes, provided you don't gc the repo). Then just use a file system and various command line tools! But seriously, it's a philosophical difference between those who want to be able to rewrite their history to what they should have done and those who want to keep the history around to see what they did. I can understand for personal projects people might want stuff to disappear. And I can understand vandals want to make stuff disappear when they attack a system. But in a serious, large project there are often requirements for an audit trail. There is no downside to this given the cheapness of backing storage. And it can prevent all sorts of problems. If you want a secure audit trail then you have to send the audit records elsewhere (preferably replicate the trails too). And you have to commit the audit records to their destinations before (or otherwise atomically as) commits are incorporated into a repo. Refusing to modify history doesn't make history unmodifiable -- Merkle hash chains alone only provide integrity protection for the past, but not if the attacker controls it and the present. An attacker can always edit the history directly via SQLite3 access to the repo. Of course, anyone who has fetched the pre-edit history will notice the re-write, which is why pushing and pulling often is helpful. Alternatively you can sign commits. Then editing history breaks the signatures, thus requiring re-signing of edited commits or a signature by some authority describing what history editing took place and why. In the places I work the problem tracking system entries are immutable. And [...] Nothing can really be made immutable, but you can detect mutation. That has nothing to do with whether a VCS permits mutation, and everything to do with using Merkle hash chaining and replicating (auditing, if you wish) the chains to secure storage as soon as possible so as to make mutation detectable. Whether to permit mutation for all, some, or no branches, is a policy decision to be made. I don't think one size fits all. Nico -- ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: Nothing can really be made immutable, but you can detect mutation. No. Version 9491ba7d738528f168657adb43a198238abde19e (the SQLite 3.8.6 release) cannot be modified in any way without changing its hash value, thus making it something different. (Unless you can mount a pre-image attack against SHA1 - let's assume that is impossible.) Object 9491ba7d738528f168657adb43a198238abde19e is immutable because changing it also changes its name, creating a new object. -- D. Richard Hipp d...@sqlite.org ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hipp d...@sqlite.org wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: Nothing can really be made immutable, but you can detect mutation. No. Version 9491ba7d738528f168657adb43a198238abde19e (the SQLite 3.8.6 release) cannot be modified in any way without changing its hash value, thus making it something different. (Unless you can mount a pre-image attack against SHA1 - let's assume that is impossible.) But the repo containing it can be mutated to, for example, no longer have that commit. This can only be detected. It can't be prevented. Merkle hash chains are only one part of the detection story. Digital signatures and/or replication are another. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: No, he can't. Well, he can, but he will break the hashes of other records, so any tamping will be noticed. Specifically, the Z- and R-cards detect any sort of tampering. Right. He can. If you've not pushed the commits anywhere else before the attack, and if you've not signed them, and if no one has pulled the commits elsewhere before the attack, then you can't detect it. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: No, he can't. Well, he can, but he will break the hashes of other records, so any tamping will be noticed. Specifically, the Z- and R-cards detect any sort of tampering. Right. He can. If you've not pushed the commits anywhere else before the attack, and if you've not signed them, and if no one has pulled the commits elsewhere before the attack, then you can't detect it. i'd have to see it to believe it. Hashing is not the only hurdle there. He'd have to get past Fossil's internal deltification, as well, which allows any given artifact to be used as the basis for a delta for any other (semantically unrelated) artifact (and undoing that rat's tail is largely what makes popping the top-most commit so very difficult). -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Richard Hipp d...@sqlite.org wrote: (Unless you can mount a pre-image attack against SHA1 - let's assume that is impossible.) FYI, FWIW, SHA1 seems to be deprecated. There was a summary on slashdot.org about Google planning to change Chrome's default setting for SHA1 warnings to on in an attempt to encourage websites to switch to a more secure hash algorithm. (The summary also mentioned the risk to Google in doing this, claiming that users might be inclined to switch web browsers when their current browser starts complaining about their favorite web sites.) ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:03 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: To me the designed to forget comments seem like a stretch. git branch -D name -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: git branch -D name Eh, filesystems let you delete files. Unlike most filesystems, git lets you restore your deleted branches (yes, provided you don't gc the repo). Then just use a file system and various command line tools! But seriously, it's a philosophical difference between those who want to be able to rewrite their history to what they should have done and those who want to keep the history around to see what they did. It's not perfect, and certainly there are arguments for both approaches, but git seems fragile to some people while fossil seems inflexible to others. -- Scott Robison ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: Okay, more git bashing... Seems like a lot of the complaints are the sorts of complaints you would get about -say- laptops: - it's easy to forget you left something on your laptop two flights ago, when you had no connectivity, and forgot to copy it to ... Maybe mobile devices should behave like Fossil repos, though that would require automatic conflict resolution to be workable. I've long thought that we need a decent filesystem with disconnected operation functionality. And with ZFS and such we know that a Merkle hash tree version-control-like approach works well for filesystems. But on the other hand, I like to be in control of what code goes up and what doesn't. To me the designed to forget comments seem like a stretch. Nico -- ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 08:07:48 -0600 Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.com wrote: Interesting you should write this. One of my newest uses for fossil is the one case in which I'm using it distributed (even though all by myself): My blog (such as it is). It is not a unique idea at all, but I finally tired of heavy weight blog platforms and decided I wanted to just keep track of things in text files. I've started using the pelican static site generator to keep all my site's source files (restructured text files in a content tree config files etc) as well as the generated files (public tree). Same here - I'm moving to Hugo static site generator written in Go, but I keep under FOssil stuff like my study notes as well, iow. everything which has to be safe. :-) Sincerely, Gour -- He is a perfect yogī who, by comparison to his own self, sees the true equality of all beings, in both their happiness and their distress, O Arjuna! ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
Hello, On 3 September 2014 09:12, Gour g...@atmarama.net wrote: On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 08:07:48 -0600 Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.com wrote: Interesting you should write this. One of my newest uses for fossil is the one case in which I'm using it distributed (even though all by myself): My blog (such as it is). ... Same here - I'm moving to Hugo static site generator written in Go, but I keep under FOssil stuff like my study notes as well, iow. everything which has to be safe. :-) fwiw, an alternative use for Fossil here is my diary (agenda? is that a word?); report-SQL to filter/colour entries according to ETA. Michai ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:29:41 +0200 Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: It occurred to me today that in nearly 31 years of using a computer i have, in total, lost more data to git (while following the instructions!!!) than any other single piece of software. Also concluded is that git is the only SCM out there which makes SCM difficult for the simple stuff. Even RCS is simpler to use. Sure CVS has limits, but respect those limits and it works just fine. Never lost a line of code in CVS. Heh, that's called irony - today I noticed the following article: Git: The Safety Net for Your Project and added comment recommending to use Fossil. (http://alistapart.com/article/git-the-safety-net-for-your-projects) Sincerely, Gour -- As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results, the learned may similarly act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, Sep 01, 2014 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Stephan Beal wrote: Okay, more git bashing... Yeah. It's too easy _not_ to do. Git is just another steaming Linux-centric pile that makes me so thankful there are people like Dr. Hipp and you and all the fossil guys. Consider the following points: 1) The world is not Linux 2) See (1) above. There are many operating systems that aren't Linux 3) We want something safe that uses a proven database because source control is about controlling source, not losing it and not littering it all over your system. 4) We want something that builds without drama on many platforms using standards compliant compilers and without requiring gcc extensions or specific shells like bash or any other proprietary (yes, I said it!) gnu crap.. Git = MAJOR FAIL. 5) We want something efficient, compact and clean that doesn't depend on scripting languages or need add-ons to be useful. It shouldn't create dozens of executables and libraries all over the target system. Because if it sucks we're going to wanna yank it out cleanly. 6) We don't want to drag a thousand tons of gnu prereqs just to build an application or its documentation(!) and we don't want to depend on dozens of prereqs to run it. Heavy = bad, light = good. 7) A source control system should be sensible from the point of view of the person using it to manage source code. It should not be Linux-centric. It should not require you to understand its internals to use it effectively and it must not require you to understand the internals to avoid pitfalls and gotchas. Tricks = bad, least surprise = good. 8) Source control is not a hobby for normal healthy people. It's not something to become an expert in for chest-banging purposes. It's a critical tool that's supposed to stay the hell out of the way and let you write and keep track of code. You guys scored a huge win by creating fossil and basing it on sqlite. It's ingenious, it's simple, it's trustworthy, it's complete, and most of all it's nothing we _don't_ want in a source control system! Thank you! /jl -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachments / \ Code Blue or Go Home! Encrypted email preferred PGP Key 2048R/DA65BC04 ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.com
wrote:
Based on reading {Stephan's message}, what do you agree or disagree with?
FWIW: i am in the small minority of my colleagues who regularly have
problems with git. They seem to be able to do the same things, click the
same buttons, and get their code in and out of where it should be.
It seems to me (after reading this and thinking about version control
systems in a slightly new way for the first time today), git is focused
less on securely keeping track of source code and far more on providing a
toolbox of ways to reorganize code to simplify (I use that term loosely)
social interactions between developers / users of git (aka collaboration).
It's not that it can't keep track of source code, but that it considers the
social aspects / reorganization tools to be more important, while at the
same time being quite terse / obtuse in the documentation / usage area.
An interesting response. Hadn't thought of it that way.
Is that an unfair assessment on my part? I still readily agree that I'm
a git newbie, and even a dvcs neophyte, and the reasons I use fossil have
little to do with its distributed nature (though I'm using it more often
that way as time goes by). Also that for certain project types where large
/ deep hierarchies of collaborators are at work, fossil is probably not an
ideal solution. It certainly wouldn't work in the same way git is used by
the linux kernel team.
Agreed completely.
I'll be interested to hear back from him what he thinks.
Me as well.
--
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
http://gplus.to/sgbeal
Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 10:08 AM, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: specific shells like bash or any other proprietary (yes, I said it!) gnu LOL! 8) Source control is not a hobby for normal healthy people. Hey! ;) You guys scored a huge win by creating fossil and basing it on sqlite. That was 100% DRH, and i believe Andreas K. was there at the start - the rest of us came along sometime between then and recently. It's ingenious, it's simple, it's trustworthy, it's complete, and most of all it's nothing we _don't_ want in a source control system! Which is why we all joined :). Thank you! Thanks for your praise :). -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 08:08:41 + John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: 8) Source control is not a hobby for normal healthy people. It's not something to become an expert in for chest-banging purposes. It's a critical tool that's supposed to stay the hell out of the way and let you write and keep track of code. 9) Source control system is not only for keeping the code - here it's used for very general writings (even non-computer-related). (too) specific = selfish, universal = broad-minded. 10) Considering 9) (above) it's a proof that those serving God, serve other people as well. Sincerely, Gour -- As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:44 AM, Gour g...@atmarama.net wrote: 9) Source control system is not only for keeping the code - here it's used for very general writings (even non-computer-related). (too) specific = selfish, universal = broad-minded. Interesting you should write this. One of my newest uses for fossil is the one case in which I'm using it distributed (even though all by myself): My blog (such as it is). It is not a unique idea at all, but I finally tired of heavy weight blog platforms and decided I wanted to just keep track of things in text files. I've started using the pelican static site generator to keep all my site's source files (restructured text files in a content tree config files etc) as well as the generated files (public tree). I only maintain the site on my home computer (including generating the public stuff), but then I commit sync it to the remote server and update the live site, making the generated file tree available (and giving me a live backup of all the files). -- Scott Robison ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 2 September 2014 10:08, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: 7) A source control system should be sensible from the point of view of the person using it to manage source code. It should not be Linux-centric. It should not require you to understand its internals to use it effectively and it must not require you to understand the internals to avoid pitfalls and gotchas. Tricks = bad, least surprise = good. This is the main issue I have: git does not follow the principle of least surprise. I'm sure it *can* do everything, if you know all of the switches and gotchas. But you don't, even if you think you do. Apparently many advanced git users have their subset well figured out, and those never can understand outsiders complaining about how difficult git can be. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 9/2/2014 09:00, Dömötör Gulyás wrote: This is the main issue I have: git does not follow the principle of least surprise. I'm sure it *can* do everything, if you know all of the switches and gotchas. But you don't, even if you think you do. Apparently many advanced git users have their subset well figured out, and those never can understand outsiders complaining about how difficult git can be. Git solves the Linux kernel problem, and it solves it well. The thing is, Linus Torvalds is unique. No one else on the planet has a problem that big and complex to solve. Why is everyone trying to use a tool designed to serve his requirements? For almost everyone else on the planet with a source control problem, using Git is like using a computer-controlled quilting and embroidering machine to sew lost buttons back onto a shirt. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.com wrote: It certainly wouldn't work in the same way git is used by the linux kernel team. Git was originally created by the Linux Kernel team, including Linus. It's hardly surprising that git would be a better fir for them than Fossil or any other VCS (distributed or not). ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 02, 2014 at 02:02:39PM -0400, Ron W wrote: On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 10:18 AM, sky5w...@gmail.com wrote: Can Fossil offer 2 solutions? SQLite based and PostgreSQL(insert big RDB here)? I think that the only way this will happen would be to fork Fossil into a new project. This would be because of the overall underlying goals of the Fossil project vs a Fossil-saurus project. As I understand it, Fossil is intentionally designed around the feature set provided by SQLite. Therefore, to support DB back-ends other than SQLite would not just require rewriting SQL queries, but significant re-working of Fossil's C implementation. I'm probably out of my area but it would seem writing a wrapper to transform the database calls to $BACKEND_OF_CHOICE would be in order unless sqlite does stuff that is really not appropriate for other databases and cannot readily be transformed to make sense with other databases. Theoretically it should be possible to do that without changing the API calls at all. You would just link the wrapper instead of sqlite. If you can get this to work it's obviously the safest, most low-impact way to do a major change like that while not breaking what already works. I have done stuff like this on another platform but am not familiar with any of the parts here i.e. I have no knowledge of C, fossil, etc. /jl -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachments / \ Code Blue or Go Home! Encrypted email preferred PGP Key 2048R/DA65BC04 ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Sep 2, 2014 12:10 PM, Ron W ronw.m...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.com wrote: It certainly wouldn't work in the same way git is used by the linux kernel team. Git was originally created by the Linux Kernel team, including Linus. It's hardly surprising that git would be a better fir for them than Fossil or any other VCS (distributed or not). That was the point I was going for. Maybe should have made it explicit. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 9/1/2014 15:49, Scott Robison wrote: the reasons I use fossil have little to do with its distributed nature (though I'm using it more often that way as time goes by). A DVCS can be useful even to a lone developer. Several times since switching from svn to Fossil, I've spent some of my disconnected travel time working on a project backed by Fossil, and was able to check in changes while offline, knowing I can synch later, with every detail of my change history synched discretely, rather than as a monolithic blob. When doing the same kind of work in my svn days, I'd end up with these massive diffs that I had to spend a bunch of time disentangling in order to get sane checkin comments on each aspect of the change set. If you have more than one computer connected to a VCS and at least one is mobile, you should be using a DVCS. Fossil vs Git is a side issue, when it comes to that. (This is also why I've been advocating for the uber-patch feature. It lets outsiders contribute patches to a project they don't have commit permissions on, without making the one applying the patch do the work of disentangling many unrelated elements of the patch.) ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 02, 2014 at 12:08:22PM -0600, Warren Young wrote: On 9/2/2014 09:00, Dömötör Gulyás wrote: This is the main issue I have: git does not follow the principle of least surprise. I'm sure it *can* do everything, if you know all of the switches and gotchas. But you don't, even if you think you do. Apparently many advanced git users have their subset well figured out, and those never can understand outsiders complaining about how difficult git can be. Git solves the Linux kernel problem, and it solves it well. The thing is, Linus Torvalds is unique. No one else on the planet has a problem that big and complex to solve. Why is everyone trying to use a tool designed to serve his requirements? While I agree on the uniqueness of Torvalds, I don't agree with the rest. The Linux kernel is *not* that big when compared with many other projects. There are quite a few other projects that are comparable in size and history. There is something else which is often ignored, especially by git advocats. The development model pushed by git is the development model used by Torvalds and that's pretty unique as well. In a way, it inverts the normal process used by most projects. A somewhat sarcastic view would call it organised distrust. Most FOSS projects and many commercial projects have a moderately flat hierachy. Members have work areas they commit code in, releases and contributions outside that area is handled either by senior members or other special subteams. There rarely is a single point of failure / approval... The Linux model effectively inverts that model. Joerg ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 9/2/2014 12:38, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote: On Tue, Sep 02, 2014 at 12:08:22PM -0600, Warren Young wrote: On 9/2/2014 09:00, Dömötör Gulyás wrote: This is the main issue I have: git does not follow the principle of least surprise. Linus Torvalds is unique. No one else on the planet has a problem that big and complex to solve. While I agree on the uniqueness of Torvalds, I don't agree with the rest. The Linux kernel is *not* that big when compared with many other projects. Lines of code is not the important measure here. The uncommon thing about the Linux kernel development effort is that it is highly distributed, with many merge layers and multiple independent but communicating major repositories. An outsider wanting to get a change into the kernel doesn't just email a patch(1) file to torva...@linux.com, he has to work it up through these layers. Some changes sit for months or years in one of the alternate kernel repos before it makes its way into Linus's git repo. Such a messy process requires a tool set that can wrangle that mess into some semblance of coherency. If you don't have that kind of mess, you don't need those tools. Other large projects either... 1. ...live largely or entirely within the scope of a single organization so presumably the check-in hierarchy is either flat or nearly so. (e.g. the Windows OS) 2. ...have a simple dividing line between those inside the project and those outside it. You either have a commit bit or you do not. Those without must submit patches. (e.g. FreeBSD) In both cases, commits end up in The Repository, singular, in short order. Such projects that use a DVCS are likely using it as master plus remotes with minor temporary differences rather than the federation model of Linux kernel development. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote: If you have more than one computer connected to a VCS and at least one is mobile, you should be using a DVCS. Fossil vs Git is a side issue, when it comes to that. I do and I use Fossil (no surprise there, right?) because of the simplicity of set up. (This is also why I've been advocating for the uber-patch feature. It lets outsiders contribute patches to a project they don't have commit permissions on, without making the one applying the patch do the work of disentangling many unrelated elements of the patch.) This could be done using the --incremental feature of fossil export / import. It's just tricky to use. My experience with submitting patches (several different projects) has been (a) each patch must be limited to one fix or enhancement, and (b) should not result in merge conflicts when the dev applying the patch applies the patch. (Generally this means pulling the latest, merging, resolving, building and testing, then pulling and merging again to make sure. Then create the patch and send it as quickly as possible.) ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 9/2/2014 14:53, Ron W wrote: On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com mailto:war...@etr-usa.com wrote: (This is also why I've been advocating for the uber-patch feature. My experience with submitting patches (several different projects) has been (a) each patch must be limited to one fix or enhancement, and (b) should not result in merge conflicts when the dev applying the patch applies the patch. I've been running an open source project for a decade now, so I can tell you from experience that a lot of patches come in that do multiple things. You can often tell that they were built up in stages, each an independent step worth a separate checkin, but because they didn't have checkin privileges, they had to submit the whole mess as a single big patch. I will predict that if Fossil ever *does* get an uber-patch feature, that I'll still get intermingled hairball patches. Still, at least it will give the outsiders a *chance* to do the right thing. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote: I've been running an open source project for a decade now, so I can tell you from experience that a lot of patches come in that do multiple things. Apparently, the projects I've submitted patches to have stricter rules. Now that I think of it, most projects probably can't afford such strict rules for patches. Not sure what I would do if I were actually running an open source project. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On 9/2/2014 16:07, Ron W wrote: On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com mailto:war...@etr-usa.com wrote: I've been running an open source project for a decade now, so I can tell you from experience that a lot of patches come in that do multiple things. Apparently, the projects I've submitted patches to have stricter rules. Oh, I *have* the rule. That doesn't stop people from violating it, though. :) Not sure what I would do if I were actually running an open source project. 1. Be an ogre, and yell at the person to resubmit, then 50% of the time get no answer, so you have to... 2. Sigh, then dice the blob-o-hackage up into multiple patches, and apply them. Then when you get tired of the bad odds on #1, start doing #2 by default. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] how to use git to lose data
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote:
Okay, more git bashing...
{snipped stuff went here}
It occurred to me today that in nearly 31 years of using a computer i
have, in total, lost more data to git (while following the instructions!!!)
than any other single piece of software. Also concluded is that git is the
only SCM out there which makes SCM difficult for the simple stuff. Even RCS
is simpler to use. Sure CVS has limits, but respect those limits and it
works just fine. Never lost a line of code in CVS.
Interesting. I think I've mentioned my employer is in the midst of
converting from an svn backed model to a git based model, though slowly on
a subproject by subproject basis. I've shared this with the
git-master-chief person at work and followed it up with the following
questions / observations:
Based on reading {Stephan's message}, what do you agree or disagree with?
It seems to me (after reading this and thinking about version control
systems in a slightly new way for the first time today), git is focused
less on securely keeping track of source code and far more on providing a
toolbox of ways to reorganize code to simplify (I use that term loosely)
social interactions between developers / users of git (aka collaboration).
It's not that it can't keep track of source code, but that it considers the
social aspects / reorganization tools to be more important, while at the
same time being quite terse / obtuse in the documentation / usage area.
Is that an unfair assessment on my part? I still readily agree that I'm a
git newbie, and even a dvcs neophyte, and the reasons I use fossil have
little to do with its distributed nature (though I'm using it more often
that way as time goes by). Also that for certain project types where large
/ deep hierarchies of collaborators are at work, fossil is probably not an
ideal solution. It certainly wouldn't work in the same way git is used by
the linux kernel team.
I'll be interested to hear back from him what he thinks.
--
Scott Robison
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