Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Friday, May 7, 2010, Noein wrote: > We're aiming in this mailing list to shape the futur of the human > knowledge through the foundation, right? So it is right to talk about > the future, it's not an arrogance. > Of course, any affirmation about the future must be considered an > hypothesis, however convinced may seem his bearer, but also however > unconvinced we are. Listen and think. Then answer so that our > interlocutor listens and thinks too. Well we're listening, we're just waiting for some arguments as to why the community should consider investing time and effort into this, instead of just assertions that VR is the future of the internets. There's certainly scope for content beyond text and embedded media in the projects. But it's going to start with things like 3D models incorporated into articles through canvas elements rather than fully immersive environments. To that end, does anyone know what happened to that project to embed 3D models of chemical compounds? -- Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Dan Rosenthal wrote: > On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: >> 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we >> don't at this point. > > But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d > environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent > users. How about doing one thing at a time? Surely many Wikipedia articles would benefit from being illustrated with a 3D model, for example articles about molecules, or vehicles, or buildings. And when that is achieved we could think about how to add interaction, and when that is achieved we could think about how to add simultaneous interaction from thousands of people. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I can’t imagine virtual reality playing a main role in an encyclopedia. But I see a lot of possibilities in creating learning materials. When people enroll a real live learning program they are paying for 3 things: For acquiring knowledge; for somebody (or some process) guiding and motivating them; and for a certificate crediting the knowledge they have acquired. Virtual reality certainly could help in creating virtual environments guiding and motivating people in the process of acquiring knowledge. Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:36:06 +0200 > From: Milos Rancic > Subject: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter > of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG > is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our > future. > > Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. > > [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 > > > > -- > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 05/06/2010 11:03 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancic wrote: > >> The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is >> MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software >> which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects >> into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this >> will be the most dominant form of using Internet. >> > No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact > remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a > much better way to convey information than VR. > If people will forgive me for promoting a personal project, this is exactly the kind of thoughtful disagreement about the future we want to put on record at the non-profit site Long Bets: http://www.longbets.org/ Disagreements like this are turned into registered predictions, and then hopefully into bets. The wagered money ends up going to the winning bettor's designated charity, so both the Wikimedia Foundation and the Free Software Foundation could be eligible recipients. If you folks are interested that, contact me off list and I'm glad to put you in touch with the right people at the Long Now Foundation. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Flagged Protection update for May 6
As requested, here's the weekly Flagged Protection update. The main news is that the team had a meeting this week with Danese and Erik to discuss rollout plans. Everybody concurs that we're close enough to launch to start a few release-related activities: 1) Starting a discussion with the enwiki community about how they'd like to handle the use of the feature once it's live, 2) Writing the release documentation, 3) Preparing for media interest, 4) Doing a final performance evaluation, and 5) Allocating engineering time to handle the rollout. This will pull in a variety of people, all of whom we're excited to have involved, including Tim, Jay, Moka, Rob L., Rob H, and even Mike G. a bit. Adam has also offered us to help us solve some cross-browser CSS issues that have been confounding us, for which we are grateful. Keep an eye out for activity relating to these efforts in the coming days and weeks. The actual release schedule depends on a number of factors, including the results of testing, the speed with which we resolve a couple of remaining UI difficulties, and the extent to which community testing on Labs turns up new issues. Speaking of which, if you'd like to try out the current software, you can do so here: http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Lest you think it has achieved perfection, both Tango and Eper turned up interesting issues just this week. Thanks to them and the other testers! To see what we've changed this week, there's a list here: http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Flagged_Protection_updates#2010_May_6 To see the upcoming work, it's listed in our tracker, under Current and Backlog: http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157 We expect to release to labs again next week, and each week thereafter until this goes live on the English Wikipedia. William P.S. On a personal note, after a dozen years of consulting, I've decided to join an early-stage web startup. Post launch, once things are running approximately smoothly, I'll be handing off my duties to Rob Lanphier, aka User:RobLa. I would ask everybody to be nice to him so I can safely make my escape, but there's no need; he's been around this place since 2001. But you should still be nice to him because he's a good guy who loves Wikipedia. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
From: Thomas Dalton > > No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact > remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a > much better way to convey information than VR. > openstreetmap.org is a very good way to convey spatial information, much better than a list of lat/lon coordinates. mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Please stop any sarcasm. There are ideas worth the consideration, as with any newly available technological tool. We're aiming in this mailing list to shape the futur of the human knowledge through the foundation, right? So it is right to talk about the future, it's not an arrogance. Of course, any affirmation about the future must be considered an hypothesis, however convinced may seem his bearer, but also however unconvinced we are. Listen and think. Then answer so that our interlocutor listens and thinks too. Otherwise, all this mailing list is sheer struggle of prestige, power or noise. Now, one of the unsolved questions of the WMF is: how do we plan to communicate with analphabets? Even supposing we could bring them a (free) internet terminal, which is far from done, we would still face the barrier of language and the uselessness of writing. A first answer comes to my mind: with the oral or gestural tradition, using roleplay communicates an idea and interacts with the stranger. Because we cannot send people to each ethnical community and leave them as crucial interprets their whole life, this impossibility undermines seriously the main objective of the WMF.: "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge." If we cannot immediately alphabetize people, should we abandon them? Can't we try alternate ways than text? Is the computer completely useless or has it other uses? Does it offer real options to communicate with indians or amerindians tribes, without teaching them nor forcing them? 3d worlds could tell myths (our myths and theirs) way better than words or scriptures. An itinerant wiki worker could interface those people with his or her wiki-device (labtop, mobile, pda, portable videoconference device, etc.) and show them things they would understand. Without forcing, just proposing. The wiki worker would teach the people to use the device to keep interacting with the wikimedia net when he's gone. Would they care to know something? Would they care to ask? Would they care to say something? To answer something? If we keep with this scenario, "Wikiask" mission would be to collect the question of an ethny, translate it to everybody, collect the answers of people who want to answer, and send back the various answers to the ethny through understandable means: a 3d world, a theater piece played by comedians, a film, a story in your language, an artisanal object, art, whichever channel the ethny understands. An example of communicative art: Roleplay is a narrative technique that makes understand and live an information (a situation). There are other techniques, but bear with this one for a while and let's develop the idea. There are humanitarians people and passionate ethnologues who know the exact difficulties of communicating with non-occidenal communities and who may even know some solutions. They may need funds, material, technologies, internet, videos and 3d worlds to give (never sell!) free access to knowledge. Then again, maybe not. Discuss. Note: I'm not necessarily fan of the 3d idea, but as Robert Honing said, we should embrace new ideas and juggle with them. Voltaire have said: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Don't lose the gigantisc scope of the goal. The roleplay idea and the 3d idea are just hypothesis. The point is, what's at stake is so deep that we should investigate any promising idea.) My 2p. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJL46fTAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LP0oIAIZCjl9hM5VgVUg4rMqRqciW bqbcaOV8bfNusSR5vzqjQIjWFABEBR971v6BBQd6rNlPmg52kI0oOb5hRBAG1FOd z/LW1WVlTK0kDYne/BCypx9LieOPT48XxfzISLfYOaaJX592sT8e8uxMd5Sv41hZ TwnFpAV5HqG4MY9d1XkKYQwPcVFYuO8zoj0O3uW6B2qiTuqIy7kvU2Rb/Tw9sqbp x1bTuIXVTthwBHOdvwUznFP1JvLp8JMccgmitoAu+BbwVA7F/tBw1RNH/jPZvAvD 960WoKecuHSDUn0aCtCaT7SjCeAuFDMFp3M6+COQHHeLcE29czGRmEOF+78O00E= =xKVW -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On May 7, 2010, at 12:21 AM, John Vandenberg wrote: > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal wrote: >> On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: >>> >>> 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we >>> don't at this point. >>> >>> -- >>> geni >> >> But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d >> environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent >> users. > > That is "virtual reality" for its own sake, rather than for > instructional benefits. > And consider those "concurrent users" including children. > > There is a lot of research about the pedagogical and epistemological > opportunities in VR, but the cases were it is clearly beneficial are > not numerous and probably only useful on Wikiversity, and I doubt you > will find anyone advocating for the educational advantages of > "interaction from .. concurrent [pseudonymous adults and children]". > > -- > John Vandenberg I strongly disagree. There are clear educational benefits for it, exemplified for instance by the massive amount of spending that the militaries around the world have spent on virtual worlds training systems such as VBS2 as educational devices. -Dan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Milos Rancic wrote: > The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter > of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG > is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our > future. Nice to see our resident futurist making some more predictions. This reminds me, we're almost halfway to May 29, 2011, the date by which the Google Wave client will be the basic component of a modern operating system, replacing the web browser. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/39129 I don't suppose you'd like to put a date on this one as well? By what date will VR be a significant part of our lives? And will Google Wave be embedded in VR, or will VR be embedded in Google Wave? -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal wrote: > On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: >> >> 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we >> don't at this point. >> >> -- >> geni > > But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d > environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent > users. That is "virtual reality" for its own sake, rather than for instructional benefits. And consider those "concurrent users" including children. There is a lot of research about the pedagogical and epistemological opportunities in VR, but the cases were it is clearly beneficial are not numerous and probably only useful on Wikiversity, and I doubt you will find anyone advocating for the educational advantages of "interaction from .. concurrent [pseudonymous adults and children]". -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: > On 7 May 2010 03:17, Dan Rosenthal wrote: >> The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a >> tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various >> model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can >> truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a >> Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a >> virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. >> >> Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view >> it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an >> extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be >> evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye >> on and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. >> >> -Dan > > 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we > don't at this point. > > -- > geni > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent users. -Dan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:35 PM, robert_horn...@netzero.net wrote: > > -- > > There was a time when the Wikimedia Foundation, or rather those involved with > the various sister projects, were interested in some leading edge and > bleeding edge stuff. Considerable experimentation was encouraged and some > amazing things happened that pushed ideas and concepts to some pretty > interesting extremes. > > Much of what we know today as Wikipedia certainly wouldn't exist today. I > got started in this whole mess back in the days when Gnupedia was rolled into > Nupedia and those two communities merged together. I remember numerous > discussions on even trying to come up with how to edit content, what sort of > raw standards ought to be invoked, and how to get participants to show up and > contribute what they knew. Using a wiki in a democratic fashion was actually > a rather novel concept, and in fact brought in a whole new group of users. > Seriously, with this sort of attitude, Wikipedia would have never even been > tried in the first place. I am so glad this particular mindset was not in > place back in those days. > > I've also been involved in working on the various sister projects, and even > helped to get Wikiversity going in the first place. Indeed, one of the > founding missions of Wikiversity was explicitly to try out new technology, to > "conduct original research" on various levels. Yes, I know that was a > sticking point with the board of trustees when Wikiversity was started too, > so it wasn't entirely without controversy. Still, there are various sorts of > original research that has been happening that is tied to the Wikimedia > community... some of which are directly supported by the Foundation and > others that are instead in the periphery and more side projects of a sub-set > of the larger community. Some are rather well known, and others are much > more obscure. > > Fine, I'll admit this is more of a research project to see if anything could > be done here, and there is no guarantee that much may come from this. I'm > not even suggesting that the WMF ought to give even modest support in the > form of server space for experimentation on this concept or even permitting a > wiki page that would act as a central community message board and idea center > for something like this. That is something that can or can't happen, but it > sort of seems rough that the idea is dismissed completely out of hand before > it is even started in the first place. It is also unfortunate that even > discussion about what sorts of ideas might be useful under such a project is > shut down before the discussion starts at all. > > -- Robert Horning > I'm not sure discussion has been shut down... No one who has posted speaks for anyone but themselves. I think there are some key differences that contribute to the reaction aside from what you see as an attitude problem. The reality is that websites with limited traffic are cheap, and the potential costs are limited. Supporting a virtual MMO world is expensive, with intense resource requirements. More importantly, an MMO world related to the WMF's mission is a much greater inventive leap (in my opinion) than an openly editable web reference. At the same time, I think you're probably right that some or even most of the entrepreneurial spirit has leached out of the Wikimedia community. This isn't necessarily surprising or even negative - as the projects mature, needs change, and incremental improvements are appropriately favored over radical experimentation. The WMF itself is still in the process of maturing into a stable organization sturdy enough to last for the long term, and it's rightly skeptical about proposed initiatives that could divert focus away from its core mission. Having said that, I would be very happy to see Milos' prediction about MMORPG-style general Internet navigation come true. If anyone does make a go of an encyclopedia in a virtual world, they can expect my support. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-- Original Message -- From: George Herbert Let me pose this a different way, however. Take UI entirely out of the picture - the Wikimedia Foundation is all about supporting projects that gather and create information for the public good, presenting that to the public, and creating software to encourage that. -- There was a time when the Wikimedia Foundation, or rather those involved with the various sister projects, were interested in some leading edge and bleeding edge stuff. Considerable experimentation was encouraged and some amazing things happened that pushed ideas and concepts to some pretty interesting extremes. Much of what we know today as Wikipedia certainly wouldn't exist today. I got started in this whole mess back in the days when Gnupedia was rolled into Nupedia and those two communities merged together. I remember numerous discussions on even trying to come up with how to edit content, what sort of raw standards ought to be invoked, and how to get participants to show up and contribute what they knew. Using a wiki in a democratic fashion was actually a rather novel concept, and in fact brought in a whole new group of users. Seriously, with this sort of attitude, Wikipedia would have never even been tried in the first place. I am so glad this particular mindset was not in place back in those days. I've also been involved in working on the various sister projects, and even helped to get Wikiversity going in the first place. Indeed, one of the founding missions of Wikiversity was explicitly to try out new technology, to "conduct original research" on various levels. Yes, I know that was a sticking point with the board of trustees when Wikiversity was started too, so it wasn't entirely without controversy. Still, there are various sorts of original research that has been happening that is tied to the Wikimedia community... some of which are directly supported by the Foundation and others that are instead in the periphery and more side projects of a sub-set of the larger community. Some are rather well known, and others are much more obscure. Fine, I'll admit this is more of a research project to see if anything could be done here, and there is no guarantee that much may come from this. I'm not even suggesting that the WMF ought to give even modest support in the form of server space for experimentation on this concept or even permitting a wiki page that would act as a central community message board and idea center for something like this. That is something that can or can't happen, but it sort of seems rough that the idea is dismissed completely out of hand before it is even started in the first place. It is also unfortunate that even discussion about what sorts of ideas might be useful under such a project is shut down before the discussion starts at all. -- Robert Horning Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4be37c8e6053c3be433st01vuc ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 7 May 2010 03:17, Dan Rosenthal wrote: > The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a > tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various > model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can > truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a > Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a > virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. > > Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view > it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an > extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be > evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye on > and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. > > -Dan 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye on and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. -Dan On May 6, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Nathan wrote: > I think the MMOEnvironment (not really a role-playing game in this > context, is it?) is an interesting forum for experimentation, but > non-game uses are still completely undeveloped. It's ripe for an > entrepreneur, but I'm not sure what the WMF could do with such an > environment. How would a vast knowledgebase be visually represented in > a navigable world? What advantages would that offer? Given the > comparatively high costs of maintaining this sort of effort, and the > unknown potential, I can't see the WMF moving into MMOEs soon. I'd be > interested to sign-up with any organization that makes the attempt, > though. > > Nathan > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:31 PM, robert_horn...@netzero.net wrote: > -- Original Message -- > From: Thomas Dalton > > > No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact > remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a > much better way to convey information than VR. > > > > I look at comments like this as somebody who is very closed minded and not > willing to see more methods of instruction. A screen full of text certainly > is a useful way to convey certain kinds of factual information, and I > certainly see the analogy of a paper encyclopedia to be a useful way to > compile and organize general knowledge about this universe we live in, but it > isn't the only way and certainly isn't the "best" way to learn about all > knowledge. > I think I agree with others, that there's no evident future growth to VR as the access modality for the web / internet information resources writ large. One could posit a UI development of some sort which changed people's minds on that - but it's not sitting at the edge of credible technology / waiting for a userbase explosion. Let me pose this a different way, however. Take UI entirely out of the picture - the Wikimedia Foundation is all about supporting projects that gather and create information for the public good, presenting that to the public, and creating software to encourage that. As no proof-of-concept now exists for a shift to VR taking off and replacing the web as the dominant modality, the proposal is premature. It's a Computer Science UI problem right now, a topic for research. The foundation isn't a research foundation, it's a practical engineering and content foundation. We should not, in my opinion, spend a lot of effort attempting to pioneer new areas of CS research. If we hypothesize that such a new modality develops out in the research community, then we could move to support / adopt it in good time. Additionally, we can think about how we do our current primary goal, of gathering and creating information for the public good, and think about whether we'd do that differently if our UI modality was something other than the web. Such thinking might usefully inform next-generation wiki tool development, in terms of how information is managed within the WMF projects. I don't see any obvious changes there, but I haven't thought about it that much. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Chapter selected board seats - call for candidates
To whom it may concern, Can you, or someone you know, help guide Wikimedia Foundation through the next exciting steps of its strategic development and growth? The Wikimedia Chapters are looking for two candidates to sit on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees for 2 years commencing in July 2010. The new board members will be faced with the challenge of helping decide the future direction of the only top-10 internet property that is run by a non-profit organisation. The Wikimedia websites are constructed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers world-wide, supported by a small but growing number of staff and an international network of chapters. The successful candidates will most importantly be committed to the Wikimedia mission and willing to work with the various stakeholders of the Wikimedia movement, including the volunteers and the chapters that provide essential support for the movement. They will have the time to do this, with the appropriate communication skills (including a good standard of English) and ability to work as a team. They will also be able and willing to travel, and have an international attitude. The candidates will ideally be open-minded with experience of international affairs and governance techniques. They will have good communication skills, as well the ability to think strategically and to work independently as well as part of a team. The process that will be followed for this selection can be viewed here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/Process All nominations must be sent to the moderator (Thomas Dalton from Wikimedia UK) and deputy moderator (José Spierts from Wikimedia Nederlands) by 23:59 UTC 17th May. If you would like to nominate yourself or someone else, please see the instructions here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/Nominate The chapters wish to locate truly excellent board members and believe that can best be done if there are a large number of varied and quality candidates to consider. Therefore, the chapters ask that everyone that thinks they, or someone they know, would be a good board member submit a nomination. They also ask that this call for candidates be distributed as widely as possible on mailing lists, village pumps, blogs, etc.. Best regards, Thomas Dalton, Moderator ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I think the MMOEnvironment (not really a role-playing game in this context, is it?) is an interesting forum for experimentation, but non-game uses are still completely undeveloped. It's ripe for an entrepreneur, but I'm not sure what the WMF could do with such an environment. How would a vast knowledgebase be visually represented in a navigable world? What advantages would that offer? Given the comparatively high costs of maintaining this sort of effort, and the unknown potential, I can't see the WMF moving into MMOEs soon. I'd be interested to sign-up with any organization that makes the attempt, though. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-- Original Message -- From: Thomas Dalton No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. I look at comments like this as somebody who is very closed minded and not willing to see more methods of instruction. A screen full of text certainly is a useful way to convey certain kinds of factual information, and I certainly see the analogy of a paper encyclopedia to be a useful way to compile and organize general knowledge about this universe we live in, but it isn't the only way and certainly isn't the "best" way to learn about all knowledge. I certainly could see some application for the use of virtual reality in the context of Wikiversity or some other guided tour of a virtual environment, or for alternative ways to explore content. It does require a different way of looking at that information, and the tools needed to organize information that is fitting for that environment are certainly a bit different than the tools needed for organizing a web page. As for why projects like VRML failed to take off in a meaningful way, that is certainly something worthy debating. From my viewpoint, one of the problems facing VRML was the very non-intuitive interfaces and incredibly steep initial learning curves to being able to get even a simple object like a cube or a sphere created in the first place. As somebody who still likes to write HTML using a simple text editor, HTML is by comparison very simple to at least get *something* put down and displayed with a typical web server... in fact it doesn't even need a web server in order to experiment with creating basic web pages. At the very least, tools similar to a wiki where somebody new to even the concept of editing on-line content at this moment in time really don't exist. As far as what those tools could be and how you might take the philosophy of wiki editing into an on-line virtual reality environment that is something I would love to explore in depth. I'm being serious here and I think this is an awesome idea but it certainly would take some work. The real gift here that is incredibly beneficial to the whole thing is that some significant content is available for the first time. For those that have forgotten, a rather substantial portion of Wikipedia was seeded with free content from a variety of sources like the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the CIA World Factbook, and a variety of free image libraries that existed before the Wikimedia Commons came into existence. It doesn't matter that Wikipedia and the Wikimedia projects have exceeded in nearly all aspects these original seed sources and have in turn become seeds to other projects, the point is that those organizing Wikipedia in the first place were able to leverage some tools from a variety of sources and applied a rather interesting democratic principle for organizing information. I am arguing here that a similar opportunity has now presented itself to perhaps extend the basic ideas and philosophies of wiki editing to a very new environment that until now has been very closed and proprietary. There have been other previous attempts to get a free software equivalent MMORPG type environment going before, but frankly they have been kludgy messes of software that has been lacking content and developers, and has never really been able to get a good critical mass of development put together to get it to work. That is the significance of this announcement, as perhaps those who might get involved here with this media could make a step forward into a new direction that hasn't been tried before. As far as Wikimedia's involvement with this effort that certainly can be debated. There are some who contribute to this list that even think the sister projects are an utter failure and should all be spun off to separate charities or foundations other than the WMF. I for one think this is a unique opportunity to do something very different if there would be some individuals who might want to think a bit outside of the normal box of throwing text onto a web page. Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! http://www.netzero.net/freeemail?refcd=NZTAGOUT1FREM0210 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Hoi, When you consider the Wikimedia movement to include translatewiki.net, we have already connections with games. We localise Freecol. While not everybody likes virtual realities, many do. As there is always a good reason to say no, there is typically also a good reason to say yes. I would welcome the suggestion that we branch out to alternative ways of involving people. We are about bringing knowledge to everyone, virtual reality is as valid an approach as for instance facebook. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2010 20:00, Milos Rancic wrote: > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni wrote: > > Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have > > historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a > > better target if you want to try that. > > The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is > MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software > which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects > into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this > will be the most dominant form of using Internet. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancic wrote: > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni wrote: >> Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have >> historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a >> better target if you want to try that. > > The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is > MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software > which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects > into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this > will be the most dominant form of using Internet. No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancic wrote: > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni wrote: >> Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have >> historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a >> better target if you want to try that. > > The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is > MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software > which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects > into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this > will be the most dominant form of using Internet. No it won't be. The limited impact of second life and the like shows that attempts at VR worlds are sub optimal ways of accessing web materials for most people. It's a lot quicker to type wikipedia.org or type wiki into google than it is to work out where in the VR world you have to walk to to find the library. Much the same can be shown with microsoft bob. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni wrote: > Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have > historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a > better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 17:55, Milos Rancic wrote: > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Nathan wrote: >> I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but >> supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of >> the WMF. > > This is not about games, but about virtual reality and platform for > spreading free knowledge. Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Nathan wrote: > I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but > supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of > the WMF. This is not about games, but about virtual reality and platform for spreading free knowledge. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of the WMF. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter > of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG > is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our > future. > > Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. > > [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 > CC announcement: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/21906 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Announcement list is active
Gerard Meijssen wrote: [Quoting reordered.] >> > Please share other thoughts or opportunities - on the meta page or on >> this list. And please also encourage others to widely subscribe to this >> list. Post to village pumps, on projects, etc. >> Could someone see to hooking it up to Gmane, please? > I learned yesterday that the announcement list should have forwarded to the > foundation-l it did not work because of a configuration issue.. In future > announcements will forward as it should. That's not what I asked for. Tim ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Announcement list is active
Hoi, I learned yesterday that the announcement list should have forwarded to the foundation-l it did not work because of a configuration issue.. In future announcements will forward as it should. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2010 13:06, Tim Landscheidt wrote: > Jay Walsh wrote: > > > [...] > > Please share other thoughts or opportunities - on the meta page or on > this list. And please also encourage others to widely subscribe to this > list. Post to village pumps, on projects, etc. > > Could someone see to hooking it up to Gmane, please? > > TIA, > Tim > > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Announcement list is active
Jay Walsh wrote: > [...] > Please share other thoughts or opportunities - on the meta page or on this > list. And please also encourage others to widely subscribe to this list. > Post to village pumps, on projects, etc. Could someone see to hooking it up to Gmane, please? TIA, Tim ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] How to make unstoppable petty complaint afeature?
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Sue Gardner wrote: > > The trick is, I think, to create a healthy mix. Wikimedia needs experienced > editors who have good judgment and can recognize patterns and coach and > guide the inexperienced. It also needs a regular influx of new people who > can bring fresh perspectives and new insights, and relieve experienced > people of grunt work they're tired of doing. Good newsrooms have a healthy > mix of both, and we need that too. > Thanks, > Sue > > For me, the issue is that I think we have an untapped healthy mix. We have continuity in new userbase that can't be quantified. As I was saying before, the human condition does not meet up with data. While numbers have dropped in participation and admin promotion on the English Wikipedia, it is my feeling that several factors come into play, mainly bots and that there's not much else to write about. What I would like to see is the improvement of guiding new users. I've been a fixture in #wikipedia-en-help since I was a new user five years ago, and I've jumped the hoops and watch others jump them. I had a similar conversation with someone this evening, Sue, and it is an interesting mountain. I suppose my point is that things sort themselves out with the wiki model, but it does take interaction and integration. Fancy models for article creation or file uploading help, they do. However, the flip side is when we have consumers complaining because they followed the rules as outlined. I know that it is apparent to the volunteers on the English Wikipedia that we've reached the self-evaluation point, it is a part of growing up. Hopefully, other projects can say "We already knew that" or "Oh, good idea". We'll see how that goes. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
