Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Well, if the list is for general dispute resolution technique, it could be valuable to all projects. From: Mike.lifeguard mikelifegu...@fastmail.fm To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:06:10 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list I'm sorry, this is really not something that needs discussion on foundation-l. This concerns English Wikipedia, and not the wider Wikimedia community or the Foundation itself. Please consider moving this discussion back to the project-specific mailing list or the project itself so to the community for that project can be consulted. Thanks, -Mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Mike.lifeguardmikelifegu...@fastmail.fm wrote: I'm sorry, this is really not something that needs discussion on foundation-l. This concerns English Wikipedia, and not the wider Wikimedia community or the Foundation itself. Please consider moving this discussion back to the project-specific mailing list or the project itself so to the community for that project can be consulted. Mike, thanks for your comments. Again, there are several reasons why this at least can be, if not should be, discussed here and not just on wikien-l: 1) Mailing lists are foundation projects hosted on the wikimedia.org domain. 2) New lists are set up by a foundation employee who acts in an official functionary capacity. 3) The resolution-l list would not be limited to en.wiki, and an eventual forked for English only usage will, appropriately, be discussed there. 4) The issue was discussed on wikien-l and, for some unknown reason, the responsible party did not bother to participate in dealing with a general matter that is, correctly or not, officially charged to him. 5) This list has higher visibility. Any similar questions, comments, or concerns? -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I am not sure whether you realize for instance that in Russian Wikipedia we have conflict resolution rules VERY MUCH different from those in English Wikipedia? I am not sure I want to follow a discussion of issues which are specific to en.wp (to which I am not a regular contributor) on this list. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Mike.lifeguardmikelifegu...@fastmail.fm wrote: I'm sorry, this is really not something that needs discussion on foundation-l. This concerns English Wikipedia, and not the wider Wikimedia community or the Foundation itself. Please consider moving this discussion back to the project-specific mailing list or the project itself so to the community for that project can be consulted. Mike, thanks for your comments. Again, there are several reasons why this at least can be, if not should be, discussed here and not just on wikien-l: 1) Mailing lists are foundation projects hosted on the wikimedia.org domain. And english wikipedia has several mailing lists to deal with its own issues. Foundation-l is for wikimedia-wide issues. This is like justifying that discussing english wikipedia issues would be ok on the spanish wikinews mailing list (because both are mailing lists hosts on wikimedia server) 2) New lists are set up by a foundation employee who acts in an official functionary capacity. The functionaries thing is an english wikipedia thing. New wikis, new mailing lists, everything.. is also setup by employees. Yet we have a mailing list for commons, a mailing list for french wikipedia, etc 3) The resolution-l list would not be limited to en.wiki, and an eventual forked for English only usage will, appropriately, be discussed there. And where's consensus that other wikis want THAT? And it should be proposed on meta if you want to claim support from all wikimedia 4) The issue was discussed on wikien-l and, for some unknown reason, the responsible party did not bother to participate in dealing with a general matter that is, correctly or not, officially charged to him. So? Moving it up to global mailing list where most people won't care about english wikipedia will solve it? If you have troubles with cary deal them with him, stop polluting inboxes from unrelated parties 5) This list has higher visibility. Alright, so it's all about shouting louder to get what you want Any similar questions, comments, or concerns? -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I am not sure whether you realize for instance that in Russian Wikipedia we have conflict resolution rules VERY MUCH different from those in English Wikipedia? I am not sure I want to follow a discussion of issues which are specific to en.wp (to which I am not a regular contributor) on this list. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Geoffrey Plourdegeo.p...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, if the list is for general dispute resolution technique, it could be valuable to all projects. Its a very simple idea, and one which sort of fills a role that wikien-l played for years, and for which there are several disjointed on-wiki portals for doing certain things. For a long time I myself stated that handling things on-list was inferior to doing things on-wiki, and thus I agree with this proposals critics to some degree. But in fact on-wiki dispute resolution is scattered, disjointed, and in need of upgrades that integrate its disjointed and constituent components into a better working machine. The only thing controversial about it is that I am the one proposing it, and I don't really even understand why that in and of itself should be particularly problematic, if people can simply deal with the concept without basing their objection in privately made criticisms and characterizations. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, stevertigostv...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Geoffrey Plourdegeo.p...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, if the list is for general dispute resolution technique, it could be valuable to all projects. Its a very simple idea, and one which sort of fills a role that wikien-l played for years, and for which there are several disjointed on-wiki portals for doing certain things. For a long time I myself stated that handling things on-list was inferior to doing things on-wiki, and thus I agree with this proposals critics to some degree. But in fact on-wiki dispute resolution is scattered, disjointed, and in need of upgrades that integrate its disjointed and constituent components into a better working machine. The only thing controversial about it is that I am the one proposing it, and I don't really even understand why that in and of itself should be particularly problematic, if people can simply deal with the concept without basing their objection in privately made criticisms and characterizations. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I don't care who's proposing it, to be honest. My issue is that this thread does not belong on foundation-l, which others seem to agree since I first said so some 14 posts ago. Take it back to wikien-l, /please/. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care who's proposing it, to be honest. My issue is that this thread does not belong on foundation-l, which others seem to agree since I first said so some 14 posts ago. Take it back to wikien-l, /please/. If you could offer some actual substantive points - as I have in point-by-point form - for why this belongs elsewhere, I might just do exactly that. Though crossposting is also an option, if one likes integrating things as I do. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:24 PM, stevertigostv...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care who's proposing it, to be honest. My issue is that this thread does not belong on foundation-l, which others seem to agree since I first said so some 14 posts ago. Take it back to wikien-l, /please/. If you could offer some actual substantive points - as I have in point-by-point form - for why this belongs elsewhere, I might just do exactly that. Though crossposting is also an option, if one likes integrating things as I do. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Pedro pretty much outlined my views already. I was going to write a point-by-point rebuttal as to why this doesn't belong on foundation-l, but I decided not to. Honestly, I thought it was pretty damn obvious that this doesn't belong on foundation-l. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: Pedro pretty much outlined my views already. I was going to write a point-by-point rebuttal as to why this doesn't belong on foundation-l, but I decided not to. Honestly, I thought it was pretty damn obvious that this doesn't belong on foundation-l. I just responded to Pedro's views. But to your credit, pretty damn obvious [this doesn't belong here] is your most substantive argument yet. I don't quite know to respond to it. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Hoi, What do you not understand ? It has been explained to you that the en approach is not compatible with what happens elsewhere. This list is explicitly NOT about the en policies. You have been politely asked to go away.. Now what does it take for you to move on with this nonsense ? Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/24 stevertigo stv...@gmail.com On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care who's proposing it, to be honest. My issue is that this thread does not belong on foundation-l, which others seem to agree since I first said so some 14 posts ago. Take it back to wikien-l, /please/. If you could offer some actual substantive points - as I have in point-by-point form - for why this belongs elsewhere, I might just do exactly that. Though crossposting is also an option, if one likes integrating things as I do. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: What do you not understand ? That is not for you to say. It has been explained to you that the en approach is not compatible with what happens elsewhere. What does this even mean? Nothing has been explained. Terse and useless go away's do not suffice as explanations. This list is explicitly NOT about the en policies. Dispute resolution is not particular to en.wiki. Others can benefit from en.wiki's policies and likewise en.wiki can benefit from understanding how others handle their issues. You have been politely asked to go away.. This is actually a contradiction of terms, though you state the concept quite nicely. Now what does it take for you to move on with this nonsense ? Are you speaking in an official capacity? -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:48 PM, stevertigostv...@gmail.com wrote: Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: What do you not understand ? That is not for you to say. It has been explained to you that the en approach is not compatible with what happens elsewhere. What does this even mean? Nothing has been explained. Terse and useless go away's do not suffice as explanations. This list is explicitly NOT about the en policies. Dispute resolution is not particular to en.wiki. Others can benefit from en.wiki's policies and likewise en.wiki can benefit from understanding how others handle their issues. You have been politely asked to go away.. This is actually a contradiction of terms, though you state the concept quite nicely. Now what does it take for you to move on with this nonsense ? Are you speaking in an official capacity? -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I'm speaking as a volunteer: go away, and take your thread with you. It is /not/ appropriate for foundation-l, period. It is obvious to everyone that this thread exists for solely one reason: for you to bitch and moan when you didn't get what you wanted on your timetable. This is also not appropriate for foundation-l, period. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:56 PM, stevertigo stv...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I'm speaking as a volunteer: go away, and take your thread with you. It is /not/ appropriate for foundation-l, period. It is obvious to everyone that this thread exists for solely one reason: for you to bitch and moan when you didn't get what you wanted on your timetable. This is also not appropriate for foundation-l, period. I think this violates DBAD, actually. CIVIL, too. Do these even apply at the foundation level? -Steven If you're referring to English Wikipedia policies, then isn't the answer obvious? You need on-wiki support and consensus for creating a new mailing list for the English Wikipedia. Go forth and find it, then come back to Cary and I'm sure he will create the list. It has nothing to do with the Foundation and does not belong on Foundation-l, despite your post-hoc arguments to the contrary. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
No, really, you need to discuss this on wikien-l instead of here. This has been explained to you by multiple people on multiple occasions. I'd suggest someone enforce that if need be. Thanks, -Mike On Fri, 2009-07-24 at 12:24 -0700, stevertigo wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care who's proposing it, to be honest. My issue is that this thread does not belong on foundation-l, which others seem to agree since I first said so some 14 posts ago. Take it back to wikien-l, /please/. If you could offer some actual substantive points - as I have in point-by-point form - for why this belongs elsewhere, I might just do exactly that. Though crossposting is also an option, if one likes integrating things as I do. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:12 PM, stevertigostv...@gmail.com wrote: I started a thread on Wikien-l last month suggesting we start a dispute resolution mailing list: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-June/101428.html Responses were largely positive, and what little criticism the idea got (much of it from Thomas Dalton) was fairly easy to deal with. I filed bug report requesting the list's creation on June 27, which was assigned to C.Bass https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19414 . I also emailed C.Bass directly. I'm curious as to the status of this. Its been a month. I've gotten no response from C.Bass, and the bug report has been thus far untouched or ignored. I realize of course that people are very very busy, and that private emails, bug reports, and wikien-l discussions are not the appropriate avenues for discussing a new open email list. That's why I'm mentioning it here. As numerous people have already pointed out, this discussion has no place on Foundation-l—in fact, nearly every reply has said as much. No productive discussion on the topic has arisen in the 48 hours the thread's been active, and it's officially become a nuisance. Sorry, Steven—you'll have to find another forum for promoting your agenda. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
--- On Fri, 7/24/09, stevertigo stv...@gmail.com wrote: From: stevertigo stv...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 2:56 PM On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I'm speaking as a volunteer: go away, and take your thread with you. It is /not/ appropriate for foundation-l, period. It is obvious to everyone that this thread exists for solely one reason: for you to bitch and moan when you didn't get what you wanted on your timetable. This is also not appropriate for foundation-l, period. I think this violates DBAD, actually. CIVIL, too. Do these even apply at the foundation level? -Steven The foundation is not really like en.WP bumped up another level. We rarely get into policing such issues on this mailing list and that is nowhere near past tolerance levels, because of among other things features in this medium that are absent from the wikis. You see everyone's email program has some form of blacklist. If someone is bothering you, you only need to place them on ignore. If they say something super important someone more reliable will certainly reply to it bring it to your attention. All kinds of little annoyances are solved by this ignore feature, especially people who don't seem to understand what issues belong on this list. Why I have two . . . or now I should say three people on ignore for that reason alone. It saves a great deal of argument. Birgitte SB ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Birgitte SBbirgitte...@yahoo.com wrote: The foundation is not really like en.WP bumped up another level. We rarely get into policing such issues on this mailing list and that is nowhere near past tolerance levels, because of among other things features in this medium that are absent from the wikis. This is one of those rare occasions. Consider the thread killed. :) Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
I started a thread on Wikien-l last month suggesting we start a dispute resolution mailing list: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-June/101428.html Responses were largely positive, and what little criticism the idea got (much of it from Thomas Dalton) was fairly easy to deal with. I filed bug report requesting the list's creation on June 27, which was assigned to C.Bass https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19414 . I also emailed C.Bass directly. I'm curious as to the status of this. Its been a month. I've gotten no response from C.Bass, and the bug report has been thus far untouched or ignored. I realize of course that people are very very busy, and that private emails, bug reports, and wikien-l discussions are not the appropriate avenues for discussing a new open email list. That's why I'm mentioning it here. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
2009/7/23 stevertigo stv...@gmail.com: I started a thread on Wikien-l last month suggesting we start a dispute resolution mailing list: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-June/101428.html Responses were largely positive, and what little criticism the idea got (much of it from Thomas Dalton) was fairly easy to deal with. I filed bug report requesting the list's creation on June 27, which was assigned to C.Bass https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19414 . I also emailed C.Bass directly. Responses were rather mixed - there were different proposals being bounced around. As I recall, a list to discuss general dispute resolution matters and perhaps to draw attention to specific disputes has some support, but I don't recall much support for a list where disputes would actually be resolved (which I think was your original proposal). I don't think the list can be created until it is agreed what it will actually be for. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia Foundation today: http://donate.wikimedia.org Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. Phone: 415.839.6885 x 601 Fax: 415.882.0495 E-Mail: c...@wikimedia.org -Original Message- From: foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of stevertigo Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:13 AM To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list I started a thread on Wikien-l last month suggesting we start a dispute resolution mailing list: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-June/101428.html Responses were largely positive, and what little criticism the idea got (much of it from Thomas Dalton) was fairly easy to deal with. I filed bug report requesting the list's creation on June 27, which was assigned to C.Bass https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19414 . I also emailed C.Bass directly. I'm curious as to the status of this. Its been a month. I've gotten no response from C.Bass, and the bug report has been thus far untouched or ignored. I realize of course that people are very very busy, and that private emails, bug reports, and wikien-l discussions are not the appropriate avenues for discussing a new open email list. That's why I'm mentioning it here. -Steven Mailing lists don't get opened by mailing list discussions, and the largely positive responses you received were neither numerous nor meritorious of creating yet another list whose function has been duplicated in other locations. I could determine neither consensus based on your email nor a pressing need for this list. I also emailed the English functionaries-l list to see if someone would provide corroboration that the project merited such an email list. The only responses I have received were private ones suggesting it would result in another layer of bureaucracy, and nobody on list. I have rather left the bugzilla open to determine whether or not it would find additional support from any location. Since that point, you have not gained any additional support. If I see nothing more than this by July 27, I will close the bug as WONTDO for the very reasons I've outlined on this email. The appropriate thing for you to have done is to put a note on the bugzilla or advertised it on the wiki and asked people to make comments on the bug before you sent an email such as this to foundation-l. Since you did not, you've certainly placed me in a defensive position; and having to explain to you why your rather request has a lower priority than other things. C.Bass ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Thomas Daltonthomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Responses were rather mixed - there were different proposals being bounced around. There weren't any different proposals. Aside from suggestions taht dealt with the scope such a list would take, there was a brief suggestion for a separate announce list - one which simply posted what issues were present. As I recall, a list to discuss general dispute resolution matters and perhaps to draw attention to specific disputes has some support, That is correct. That is essentially the entire concept. But note also that the core of our dispute resolution is best codified with something like DBAD. So to make a habit of chastizing people simply for getting into specific issues on a list itself violates DBAD, and that is why Im reluctant to put hard boundaries on what can or cannot be discussed. If its dispute resolution related, we can discuss it. Obviously much will deal with simply pointing people to the right places on the wiki, helping filing WP:DRR (requests), and keeping things high-level, as you have suggested. but I don't recall much support for a list where disputes would actually be resolved (which I think was your original proposal). That actually wasn't my proposal to resolve disputes there. On the other hand, if a report to ANI or RFC receives attention that solves certain problems, then does that mean you would object to the usage of ANI or RFC to resolve disputes? I guess the point is that the distinctions you illustrate and so-called ambiguity issues you raise are unnecessary and argumentative. I don't think the list can be created until it is agreed what it will actually be for. Sure. That's why I proposed it in the first place. And as far as agreement, goes, I gauge our degree of disagreement at only about five percent. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
2009/7/23 stevertigo stv...@gmail.com: That actually wasn't my proposal to resolve disputes there. On the other hand, if a report to ANI or RFC receives attention that solves certain problems, then does that mean you would object to the usage of ANI or RFC to resolve disputes? ANI and RFC *are* part of our dispute resolution processes... ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Thomas Daltonthomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/23 stevertigo stv...@gmail.com: That actually wasn't my proposal to resolve disputes there. On the other hand, if a report to ANI or RFC receives attention that solves certain problems, then does that mean you would object to the usage of ANI or RFC to resolve disputes? ANI and RFC *are* part of our dispute resolution processes... ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Not sure what this has to do with foundation-l, can this go back to wikien-l? -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Chadinnocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure what this has to do with foundation-l, can this go back to wikien-l? Thomas' comment was a bit off-topic, but that does not mean this entire thread belongs elsewhere. There are at least four reasons why this discussion belongs here. If you do not understand the issues, please do not make editorial suggestions. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Cary Bassc...@wikimedia.org wrote: Mailing lists don't get opened by mailing list discussions Hm. I also filed a request on mediazilla, which was automatically assigned to you. and the largely positive responses you received were neither numerous nor meritorious of creating yet another list whose function has been duplicated in other locations. I could determine neither consensus based on your email nor a pressing need for this list. This could have been expressed by you earlier on the wikien-l list, where you do occasionally participate. I disagree with all of it, but I could not say anything about it, because you did not express it in any way. I also emailed the English functionaries-l list to see if someone would provide corroboration that the project merited such an email list. I cannot access functionaries-l. That means that your communications there, in addition to being private, were also unwiki - considering we were discussing it openly on wikien-l and mediazilla. The only responses I have received were private ones suggesting it would result in another layer of bureaucracy, and nobody on list. If you could either forward these emails to me, or else summarize their criticisms here, that would be wonderful. (continued..) -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Cary Bass wrote: You have not gained any additional support. Open discussion is of course the first step in gaining support. We've been waiting for your participation, as you seem to be the functionary in charge of starting new lists. Now that you are participating in an open discussion, we can sort of resolve any issues people might have with it. If I see nothing more than this by July 27, I will close the bug as WONTDO Well, that gives us three full days. This after you had been non-responsive for almost a month. I understand that you are a functionary, and do things in a functionary way, but I would respectfully ask for more time. A whole week even. The appropriate thing for you to have done is to put a note on the bugzilla I filed the report on mediazilla. No response. What then would I have put a note on the bugzilla about, apart from my filing the request/bug? or advertised it on the wiki and asked people to make comments on the bug before you sent an email such as this to foundation-l. Hm. All I did was start a 100 message thread on wikien-l, and a request on mediazilla. If you could outline more appropriate methods for getting you to do something several of us expressed support for, then please state them. you've certainly placed me in a defensive position; and having to explain to you why your rather request has a lower priority than other things. Well I understand that you are very very busy. Again, if you had responded to the concept either in private, on mediazilla, or on wikien-l, and not just on a private mailing list, things would have gone a bit smoother. As you raised the issue of appropriateness, I don't believe anyone's private summary judgments are appropriate for an open project. Sorry to put you on the spot, Cary. I was simply asking for some open discussion. I do not understand what forces compel you to discuss an open project's matters through only private means, and I don't care, really. I was just asking for an open dispute resolution mailing list. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
Nothing prevents you from starting your own mailing list if Cary won't. As I am not a member of the wikien cesspool, what purpose are you thinking of? Geoffrey From: stevertigo stv...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:22:27 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list Cary Bass wrote: You have not gained any additional support. Open discussion is of course the first step in gaining support. We've been waiting for your participation, as you seem to be the functionary in charge of starting new lists. Now that you are participating in an open discussion, we can sort of resolve any issues people might have with it. If I see nothing more than this by July 27, I will close the bug as WONTDO Well, that gives us three full days. This after you had been non-responsive for almost a month. I understand that you are a functionary, and do things in a functionary way, but I would respectfully ask for more time. A whole week even. The appropriate thing for you to have done is to put a note on the bugzilla I filed the report on mediazilla. No response. What then would I have put a note on the bugzilla about, apart from my filing the request/bug? or advertised it on the wiki and asked people to make comments on the bug before you sent an email such as this to foundation-l. Hm. All I did was start a 100 message thread on wikien-l, and a request on mediazilla. If you could outline more appropriate methods for getting you to do something several of us expressed support for, then please state them. you've certainly placed me in a defensive position; and having to explain to you why your rather request has a lower priority than other things. Well I understand that you are very very busy. Again, if you had responded to the concept either in private, on mediazilla, or on wikien-l, and not just on a private mailing list, things would have gone a bit smoother. As you raised the issue of appropriateness, I don't believe anyone's private summary judgments are appropriate for an open project. Sorry to put you on the spot, Cary. I was simply asking for some open discussion. I do not understand what forces compel you to discuss an open project's matters through only private means, and I don't care, really. I was just asking for an open dispute resolution mailing list. -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Geoffrey Plourdegeo.p...@yahoo.com wrote: Nothing prevents you from starting your own mailing list if Cary won't. As I am not a member of the wikien cesspool, what purpose are you thinking of? Why don't you go have a peek at the archives instead of bringing what you characterize as a cesspool over here? -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
I'm sorry, this is really not something that needs discussion on foundation-l. This concerns English Wikipedia, and not the wider Wikimedia community or the Foundation itself. Please consider moving this discussion back to the project-specific mailing list or the project itself so to the community for that project can be consulted. Thanks, -Mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Dispute resolution mailing list
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Mike.lifeguardmikelifegu...@fastmail.fm wrote: I'm sorry, this is really not something that needs discussion on foundation-l. This concerns English Wikipedia, and not the wider Wikimedia community or the Foundation itself. Please consider moving this discussion back to the project-specific mailing list or the project itself so to the community for that project can be consulted. Mike, thanks for your comments. Again, there are several reasons why this at least can be, if not should be, discussed here and not just on wikien-l: 1) Mailing lists are foundation projects hosted on the wikimedia.org domain. 2) New lists are set up by a foundation employee who acts in an official functionary capacity. 3) The resolution-l list would not be limited to en.wiki, and an eventual forked for English only usage will, appropriately, be discussed there. 4) The issue was discussed on wikien-l and, for some unknown reason, the responsible party did not bother to participate in dealing with a general matter that is, correctly or not, officially charged to him. 5) This list has higher visibility. Any similar questions, comments, or concerns? -Steven ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
