Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Дана Friday 07 May 2010 12:53:59 Milos Rancic написа: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: Milos Rancic wrote: The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Nice to see our resident futurist making some more predictions. This reminds me, we're almost halfway to May 29, 2011, the date by which the Google Wave client will be the basic component of a modern operating system, replacing the web browser. Unlike in prophecy, in speculative prediction will be means: It will be if: 1) Nothing cataclysmic happens. 2) Nothing radically different happens. 3) Matter of prediction goes through the most possible path of development. OMEN, n. A sign that something will happen if nothing happens. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 05/06/2010 11:03 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancicmill...@gmail.com wrote: The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. If people will forgive me for promoting a personal project, this is exactly the kind of thoughtful disagreement about the future we want to put on record at the non-profit site Long Bets: http://www.longbets.org/ Disagreements like this are turned into registered predictions, and then hopefully into bets. The wagered money ends up going to the winning bettor's designated charity, so both the Wikimedia Foundation and the Free Software Foundation could be eligible recipients. If you folks are interested that, contact me off list and I'm glad to put you in touch with the right people at the Long Now Foundation. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I can’t imagine virtual reality playing a main role in an encyclopedia. But I see a lot of possibilities in creating learning materials. When people enroll a real live learning program they are paying for 3 things: For acquiring knowledge; for somebody (or some process) guiding and motivating them; and for a certificate crediting the knowledge they have acquired. Virtual reality certainly could help in creating virtual environments guiding and motivating people in the process of acquiring knowledge. Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:36:06 +0200 From: Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com Subject: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: j2x846221521005060736g98d23555g73f6c0465b08b...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 -- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Dan Rosenthal wrote: On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent users. How about doing one thing at a time? Surely many Wikipedia articles would benefit from being illustrated with a 3D model, for example articles about molecules, or vehicles, or buildings. And when that is achieved we could think about how to add interaction, and when that is achieved we could think about how to add simultaneous interaction from thousands of people. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Friday, May 7, 2010, Noein prono...@gmail.com wrote: We're aiming in this mailing list to shape the futur of the human knowledge through the foundation, right? So it is right to talk about the future, it's not an arrogance. Of course, any affirmation about the future must be considered an hypothesis, however convinced may seem his bearer, but also however unconvinced we are. Listen and think. Then answer so that our interlocutor listens and thinks too. Well we're listening, we're just waiting for some arguments as to why the community should consider investing time and effort into this, instead of just assertions that VR is the future of the internets. There's certainly scope for content beyond text and embedded media in the projects. But it's going to start with things like 3D models incorporated into articles through canvas elements rather than fully immersive environments. To that end, does anyone know what happened to that project to embed 3D models of chemical compounds? -- Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: Milos Rancic wrote: The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Nice to see our resident futurist making some more predictions. This reminds me, we're almost halfway to May 29, 2011, the date by which the Google Wave client will be the basic component of a modern operating system, replacing the web browser. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/39129 I don't suppose you'd like to put a date on this one as well? By what date will VR be a significant part of our lives? And will Google Wave be embedded in VR, or will VR be embedded in Google Wave? Will think about sensible response when awake fully :))) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Hello, 2010/5/7 Noein prono...@gmail.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Please stop any sarcasm. There are ideas worth the consideration, as with any newly available technological tool. We're aiming in this mailing list to shape the futur of the human knowledge through the foundation, right? So it is right to talk about the future, it's not an arrogance. Of course, any affirmation about the future must be considered an hypothesis, however convinced may seem his bearer, but also however unconvinced we are. Listen and think. Then answer so that our interlocutor listens and thinks too. Otherwise, all this mailing list is sheer struggle of prestige, power or noise. Now, one of the unsolved questions of the WMF is: how do we plan to communicate with analphabets? Thinking that analphabets would get encyclopedic knowledge through VR shows a big misunderstanding of how the cause of analphabetism. If people are analphabets is because they lack the resource to have a proper education, so they won't get any access to a computer, much less to Internet and VR worlds. Regards, Yann ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.com wrote: To that end, does anyone know what happened to that project to embed 3D models of chemical compounds? ... or .. to render sheet music... -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Yann Forget yan...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, 2010/5/7 Noein prono...@gmail.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Now, one of the unsolved questions of the WMF is: how do we plan to communicate with analphabets? Thinking that analphabets would get encyclopedic knowledge through VR shows a big misunderstanding of how the cause of analphabetism. If people are analphabets is because they lack the resource to have a proper education, so they won't get any access to a computer, much less to Internet and VR worlds. I can tell you of my experience with people from Kosovo who are not native english speakers, many of have a hard time reading anything longer than 140 characters. The dont like to read and books are very expensive, and the written language is very different than the spoken one. But they *will* watch videos, or listen to some talk, even in english or german or do something interactive. That is why we need videos of people (or computers) reading articles to them that they can pop into their dvd player or have share. more people have some form of ability to play dvds. The mit ocw distributes hdds of data to schools with no internet access, they include video lectures and alot of material. very good stuff. I can imagine, but may be wrong, that in most villages in world, even the poorest, where 99% of the people done have computers and such, at least one person or school in town will have some form of dvd player. In fact, you could distribute articles in image format for a normal dvd player as well. mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Intersting, this thread evolved into a good discussion. The way I see it, VR does has potential, as some have pointed out. There are current practical applications for it. On the other hand, it's not here yet. Some that subscribe to the list have met me offline and know that I communicate with more than just words, though I tend to use a lot of them. Education is provided through some form of human interaction and not just text. I can bang out a powerpoint or paper, but that doesn't mean without interpersonal communication that my point will be fully grasped. Such as writing this email. Video conferencing was promised a decade ago, and now it is free. That doesn't mean that in ten years we can't communicate with VR, but I currently don't own the bodysuit. It's not a bad idea to think about, but practical applications for knowledge don't currently exist. That doesn't mean that they won't, and active development should be encouraged. This doesn't mean immediate use, but it's a decent thought. To Dan's analogy about the US military applications, that is an apt one. Teach soldiers combat before they go into it and this ties into the gaming principle and Noein's principle. What we have to bear in mind, as expressed, is that this is not an immediate application. Most of the rest of the world still learns hands on, and we haven't even come close to building a worldwide userbase either. So it's something to think about and not get into a debate about the present applications of VR, but we should follow the process of technological advancement. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: Milos Rancic wrote: The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Nice to see our resident futurist making some more predictions. This reminds me, we're almost halfway to May 29, 2011, the date by which the Google Wave client will be the basic component of a modern operating system, replacing the web browser. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/39129 I don't suppose you'd like to put a date on this one as well? By what date will VR be a significant part of our lives? And will Google Wave be embedded in VR, or will VR be embedded in Google Wave? * * SKIP if you don't want to read about Google Wave * Unlike in prophecy, in speculative prediction will be means: It will be if: 1) Nothing cataclysmic happens. 2) Nothing radically different happens. 3) Matter of prediction goes through the most possible path of development. Google simply didn't do 3. Also, I said something like in a year or two. Such things can be predicted just as trends and I thought that one or two years are enough for that -- as it is driven by one large corporation. At the other side, I don't think that it will happen at all if it wouldn't become stable enough in five or so years, as something else, like VR will come. The point is that Google still didn't do the most basic things to make their product better. I can list a number of enhancements of Google Wave, which would make it much more alive. Most basically, integration with email (inside of Wave of Gmail interface); i.e. to be able to send email to some...@googlewave.com. However, Google did quite opposite; they did [almost] nothing. Just a couple of weeks ago they've added send me an email when I get new wave option; and that increased activity on Google Wave. After ~20 days of nothing, I've got a couple of new waves. As I said last year, the concept of Google Wave looks too radical to be supported by one corporation. Previously, I was just dreaming about something like that: social and collaborative network based on XMPP+P2P, using enhanced email clients as ultimate communication, collaborative and social networking programs. At the other side and because of a kind of lethargy inside of free software/knowledge/culture movement (this was the time just 8-9 months distant from the beginning of financial crisis; inner problems were still obvious: this was the time before the start of our strategic planning, which means that we didn't even have a clue of what do we want), I was thinking that such thing (Wave) would be possible just if some big corporation supports it. And, yes, I was very excited when I saw that Google did it. However, the most probable point about Wave is: Google didn't find a way how to make money from it. Other reasons may be: (1) Wave as a full replacement of email is in direct collision with one of their most important products, Gmail. (2) Wave as a full replacement for social networking and collaboration is in direct collision with other their products, including search engine. (3) It is a suicidal action. More Wave servers mean less Google ad share. Recent positioning of Apple explained to me a lot about Google's positioning. I suggest reading one interesting analysis about Apple [1], but very related to Google. At that point, a year ago, Facebook became very powerful (around that time, it passed Gmail with the number of users) and I think that Google management did a number of things relatively irrationally. Google Wave was not a mature project in September, it isn't mature still. For example, I would really like to install Google Wave server (preferably, integrated with MediaWiki [syntax]) for collaborative purposes. However, Google Wave server implementation is in pre-alpha stage (I can't find it in Debian experimental and I am not willing to force installation of unstable software). Google did a number of other things during the previous two-three years: (1) They've made Android in response to IPhone. (2) They've made app store similarly to Apple. (3) They've made Buzz and they've promoted Google Profile as much lighter responses to Facebook. (4) ChromeOS for netbooks. (5) probably something more which I forgot. Note that none of their products (except Wave) can be called as technological breakthrough, something new etc. So, I think that they just want to stay around and to be able to catch any kind of technological breakthrough. In other words, Google became too large to lead any kind of change, similarly to IBM decades ago. They are just fine now and the vast majority of their products and actions (including, for example, large scale OCR; but excluding Wave) are just logical developments of their previous business. And to word it as a conclusion: Google
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Gerard, this statement surprises me. Why was the foundation involved in the localization of Freecol, a game with little or no historic information (compared with other historic games such as europa universalis)? kind regards, Teun On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: Hoi, When you consider the Wikimedia movement to include translatewiki.net, we have already connections with games. We localise Freecol. While not everybody likes virtual realities, many do. As there is always a good reason to say no, there is typically also a good reason to say yes. I would welcome the suggestion that we branch out to alternative ways of involving people. We are about bringing knowledge to everyone, virtual reality is as valid an approach as for instance facebook. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2010 20:00, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Hoi, I am talking about the Wikimedia MOVEMENT and am not restricting myself to the foundation... Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2010 17:08, teun spaans teun.spa...@gmail.com wrote: Gerard, this statement surprises me. Why was the foundation involved in the localization of Freecol, a game with little or no historic information (compared with other historic games such as europa universalis)? kind regards, Teun On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: Hoi, When you consider the Wikimedia movement to include translatewiki.net, we have already connections with games. We localise Freecol. While not everybody likes virtual realities, many do. As there is always a good reason to say no, there is typically also a good reason to say yes. I would welcome the suggestion that we branch out to alternative ways of involving people. We are about bringing knowledge to everyone, virtual reality is as valid an approach as for instance facebook. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2010 20:00, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 7 May 2010 16:08, teun spaans teun.spa...@gmail.com wrote: this statement surprises me. Why was the foundation involved in the localization of Freecol, a game with little or no historic information (compared with other historic games such as europa universalis)? translatewiki is not a WMF project, but it does have strong associations with Wikimedia in its inspiration and volunteer base. It does translations for a lot more projects than MediaWiki. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:08 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 May 2010 16:08, teun spaans teun.spa...@gmail.com wrote: this statement surprises me. Why was the foundation involved in the localization of Freecol, a game with little or no historic information (compared with other historic games such as europa universalis)? translatewiki is not a WMF project, but it does have strong associations with Wikimedia in its inspiration and volunteer base. It does translations for a lot more projects than MediaWiki. I would maybe say that translatewiki is part of the wiki knowledge movement :) Thanks, Pharos ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thank you for this analysis, Milos. I think you should definitely take the time to explain yourself more often since 1/ your bold statements are not unanimously intuitive 2/ we need to share visions, skills and knowledge to understand what we're talking about when we talk about wikimedia and the world. On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Yann Forget yan...@gmail.com wrote: I can tell you of my experience with people from Kosovo who are not native english speakers, many of have a hard time reading anything longer than 140 characters. The dont like to read and books are very expensive, and the written language is very different than the spoken one. *** warning: long reasoning *** I was talking yesterday with a french woman who went for two years to help peasants of the Choco in Colombia. They are of oral traditions. Some are descendant of white colons. Some are Amerindians. Some are of African roots. No villager can read, only some bachelors from the cities. Internet doesn't reach the agricultural communities in this jungle where you only travel by boat. The only way my friend found to inform them and communicate was by creating role-playing scenarii with local, more educated inhabitants from the city; then go with them to the villagers in the jungle and communicate through the role-playing games. This understanding of the situation and this roleplay idea has a potential. Is it urgent? Is it immediately feasible? Does it concern the WMF? I don't know. But I think it is linked with the bigger problem of outreaching people, which is one of the core problems of the WMF (and mankind). What I know is that as long as we are alphabetized, educated, computerized, living in the comfort of occidental life, we're some kind of rich, literate elite (this not an insult nor an arrogance); we need to establish bridges with the 5 billions people who work with different minds and conditions, without imposing our culture or forcing our values into them. One of the first fundamental questions to think about the supreme goal of the WMF is: do every human WANT to access mankind knowledge? In my opinion, it is too late to preserve most ethnic cultures from say, capitalism or western culture. Admittedly, I have very limited knowledge, even if I constantly try to learn about this problem, so I know that I may be wrong. However, I have lived and traveled in South America long enough to see the crushing of traditions and culture by one dominant, predatory culture. Since it is too late for them, since their virginity is only a memory, I can accept the goal of reaching every human, even if they didn't ask for it, to give them a way to know what they want to know about the world they're being anyway sucked into. Because if I had to ask just one question to another being it would be is it really what you want?, because of that I think bringing knowledge to analphabets, poors and minorities is justified, it gives them the choice. For this particular targeted public, my limited mind concludes that the WMF needs humanitarian, pragmatic volunteers who want and know how to deal with real, non-occidental people. I don't think it would cost that much to ally with people already accomplishing ethnological or humanitarian missions: WMF would just have to provide the internet devices and software to facilitate an access to knowledge during interaction with ethnies. Etc. (A lot more could be discussed about this idea. I feel that coherent projects can be developed and built from this seed, and I know some potential partners, but this is just a coincidence of my eclectic knowledge. I'm personally more interested in black holes, so don't take my mail as proselytism for a personal agenda). Please forgive the time I'm stealing from you with my considerations. I'm not a natural english speaker and an additional effort from your part may be required in order to understand me. I think we need to solve diary problems AND discuss long term goals, in this very mailing list: in my opinion, both poles of reflection/action should go hand in hand so that when the implementation reaches the goal, it IS what we wanted. If I'm not in the right list for this kind of talk please redirect me. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJL5KMcAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LN5gIAKkLtgL5/RgfTe14nSseJvxB dHAIhllFQ757yXBctwgKVCYyKmZ8/kettk2q20GmCqFGmE8tgUcWAb8wJTto4yMv gra9tZvB2CscQw1LHVoNFo5kXd2h+w6TCqkrjlCDSeU18aOM7Vuh0FYYldTZseNN lGdycrkTBhVQBpyNgeJNSFQTq28ilK1ZanFbm6LGCmIosnoqVeCzswu2Dl32K1E6 YuduLqFcCO/JVeCLpnYGbV4H/Ra3zZQQHhU6pHJa0eT/GcOk6nGbTyM1SjK9q1V8 MUMurtjwKOECQ73J9Emyo4LyOGenDZJ2Z3SXrNP/66+oemoO9xwDZUchW1OFpzw= =PRqK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Hello, 2010/5/7 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Yann Forget yan...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, 2010/5/7 Noein prono...@gmail.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Now, one of the unsolved questions of the WMF is: how do we plan to communicate with analphabets? Thinking that analphabets would get encyclopedic knowledge through VR shows a big misunderstanding of how the cause of analphabetism. If people are analphabets is because they lack the resource to have a proper education, so they won't get any access to a computer, much less to Internet and VR worlds. I can tell you of my experience with people from Kosovo who are not native english speakers, many of have a hard time reading anything longer than 140 characters. The dont like to read and books are very expensive, and the written language is very different than the spoken one. But they *will* watch videos, or listen to some talk, even in english or german or do something interactive. That is why we need videos of people (or computers) reading articles to them that they can pop into their dvd player or have share. more people have some form of ability to play dvds. The mit ocw distributes hdds of data to schools with no internet access, they include video lectures and alot of material. very good stuff. I can imagine, but may be wrong, that in most villages in world, even the poorest, where 99% of the people done have computers and such, at least one person or school in town will have some form of dvd player. In fact, you could distribute articles in image format for a normal dvd player as well. For a DVD player, you are a bit too optimist, for there is not even electricity everywhere. But many people have a mobile phone nowadays, so we could try making MP3 available with encyclopedic content. mike Regards, Yann ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Wikimedia should join FSF and Winch Gate Properties in shaping the future. [1] - http://dev.ryzom.com/news/13 CC announcement: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/21906 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of the WMF. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of the WMF. This is not about games, but about virtual reality and platform for spreading free knowledge. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 17:55, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding what you've written, but supporting open source games seems to be outside the normal scope of the WMF. This is not about games, but about virtual reality and platform for spreading free knowledge. Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. No it won't be. The limited impact of second life and the like shows that attempts at VR worlds are sub optimal ways of accessing web materials for most people. It's a lot quicker to type wikipedia.org or type wiki into google than it is to work out where in the VR world you have to walk to to find the library. Much the same can be shown with microsoft bob. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 6 May 2010 19:00, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Hoi, When you consider the Wikimedia movement to include translatewiki.net, we have already connections with games. We localise Freecol. While not everybody likes virtual realities, many do. As there is always a good reason to say no, there is typically also a good reason to say yes. I would welcome the suggestion that we branch out to alternative ways of involving people. We are about bringing knowledge to everyone, virtual reality is as valid an approach as for instance facebook. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2010 20:00, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:40 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: Doubtful. Why a few turn based and real time strategy have historically spread information MMORPGs have not. Freeciv might be a better target if you want to try that. The point is that this is an engine for virtual reality, while it is MMORPG, too. And unlike Second Life, the platform is free software which anyone would be able to install. Integrating Wikimedia projects into this framework should be priority as in five to ten years, this will be the most dominant form of using Internet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-- Original Message -- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. I look at comments like this as somebody who is very closed minded and not willing to see more methods of instruction. A screen full of text certainly is a useful way to convey certain kinds of factual information, and I certainly see the analogy of a paper encyclopedia to be a useful way to compile and organize general knowledge about this universe we live in, but it isn't the only way and certainly isn't the best way to learn about all knowledge. I certainly could see some application for the use of virtual reality in the context of Wikiversity or some other guided tour of a virtual environment, or for alternative ways to explore content. It does require a different way of looking at that information, and the tools needed to organize information that is fitting for that environment are certainly a bit different than the tools needed for organizing a web page. As for why projects like VRML failed to take off in a meaningful way, that is certainly something worthy debating. From my viewpoint, one of the problems facing VRML was the very non-intuitive interfaces and incredibly steep initial learning curves to being able to get even a simple object like a cube or a sphere created in the first place. As somebody who still likes to write HTML using a simple text editor, HTML is by comparison very simple to at least get *something* put down and displayed with a typical web server... in fact it doesn't even need a web server in order to experiment with creating basic web pages. At the very least, tools similar to a wiki where somebody new to even the concept of editing on-line content at this moment in time really don't exist. As far as what those tools could be and how you might take the philosophy of wiki editing into an on-line virtual reality environment that is something I would love to explore in depth. I'm being serious here and I think this is an awesome idea but it certainly would take some work. The real gift here that is incredibly beneficial to the whole thing is that some significant content is available for the first time. For those that have forgotten, a rather substantial portion of Wikipedia was seeded with free content from a variety of sources like the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the CIA World Factbook, and a variety of free image libraries that existed before the Wikimedia Commons came into existence. It doesn't matter that Wikipedia and the Wikimedia projects have exceeded in nearly all aspects these original seed sources and have in turn become seeds to other projects, the point is that those organizing Wikipedia in the first place were able to leverage some tools from a variety of sources and applied a rather interesting democratic principle for organizing information. I am arguing here that a similar opportunity has now presented itself to perhaps extend the basic ideas and philosophies of wiki editing to a very new environment that until now has been very closed and proprietary. There have been other previous attempts to get a free software equivalent MMORPG type environment going before, but frankly they have been kludgy messes of software that has been lacking content and developers, and has never really been able to get a good critical mass of development put together to get it to work. That is the significance of this announcement, as perhaps those who might get involved here with this media could make a step forward into a new direction that hasn't been tried before. As far as Wikimedia's involvement with this effort that certainly can be debated. There are some who contribute to this list that even think the sister projects are an utter failure and should all be spun off to separate charities or foundations other than the WMF. I for one think this is a unique opportunity to do something very different if there would be some individuals who might want to think a bit outside of the normal box of throwing text onto a web page. Get Free Email with Video Mail Video Chat! http://www.netzero.net/freeemail?refcd=NZTAGOUT1FREM0210 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
I think the MMOEnvironment (not really a role-playing game in this context, is it?) is an interesting forum for experimentation, but non-game uses are still completely undeveloped. It's ripe for an entrepreneur, but I'm not sure what the WMF could do with such an environment. How would a vast knowledgebase be visually represented in a navigable world? What advantages would that offer? Given the comparatively high costs of maintaining this sort of effort, and the unknown potential, I can't see the WMF moving into MMOEs soon. I'd be interested to sign-up with any organization that makes the attempt, though. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:31 PM, robert_horn...@netzero.net robert_horn...@netzero.net wrote: -- Original Message -- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. I look at comments like this as somebody who is very closed minded and not willing to see more methods of instruction. A screen full of text certainly is a useful way to convey certain kinds of factual information, and I certainly see the analogy of a paper encyclopedia to be a useful way to compile and organize general knowledge about this universe we live in, but it isn't the only way and certainly isn't the best way to learn about all knowledge. I think I agree with others, that there's no evident future growth to VR as the access modality for the web / internet information resources writ large. One could posit a UI development of some sort which changed people's minds on that - but it's not sitting at the edge of credible technology / waiting for a userbase explosion. Let me pose this a different way, however. Take UI entirely out of the picture - the Wikimedia Foundation is all about supporting projects that gather and create information for the public good, presenting that to the public, and creating software to encourage that. As no proof-of-concept now exists for a shift to VR taking off and replacing the web as the dominant modality, the proposal is premature. It's a Computer Science UI problem right now, a topic for research. The foundation isn't a research foundation, it's a practical engineering and content foundation. We should not, in my opinion, spend a lot of effort attempting to pioneer new areas of CS research. If we hypothesize that such a new modality develops out in the research community, then we could move to support / adopt it in good time. Additionally, we can think about how we do our current primary goal, of gathering and creating information for the public good, and think about whether we'd do that differently if our UI modality was something other than the web. Such thinking might usefully inform next-generation wiki tool development, in terms of how information is managed within the WMF projects. I don't see any obvious changes there, but I haven't thought about it that much. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye on and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. -Dan On May 6, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Nathan wrote: I think the MMOEnvironment (not really a role-playing game in this context, is it?) is an interesting forum for experimentation, but non-game uses are still completely undeveloped. It's ripe for an entrepreneur, but I'm not sure what the WMF could do with such an environment. How would a vast knowledgebase be visually represented in a navigable world? What advantages would that offer? Given the comparatively high costs of maintaining this sort of effort, and the unknown potential, I can't see the WMF moving into MMOEs soon. I'd be interested to sign-up with any organization that makes the attempt, though. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On 7 May 2010 03:17, Dan Rosenthal swatjes...@gmail.com wrote: The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye on and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. -Dan 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-- Original Message -- From: George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com Let me pose this a different way, however. Take UI entirely out of the picture - the Wikimedia Foundation is all about supporting projects that gather and create information for the public good, presenting that to the public, and creating software to encourage that. -- There was a time when the Wikimedia Foundation, or rather those involved with the various sister projects, were interested in some leading edge and bleeding edge stuff. Considerable experimentation was encouraged and some amazing things happened that pushed ideas and concepts to some pretty interesting extremes. Much of what we know today as Wikipedia certainly wouldn't exist today. I got started in this whole mess back in the days when Gnupedia was rolled into Nupedia and those two communities merged together. I remember numerous discussions on even trying to come up with how to edit content, what sort of raw standards ought to be invoked, and how to get participants to show up and contribute what they knew. Using a wiki in a democratic fashion was actually a rather novel concept, and in fact brought in a whole new group of users. Seriously, with this sort of attitude, Wikipedia would have never even been tried in the first place. I am so glad this particular mindset was not in place back in those days. I've also been involved in working on the various sister projects, and even helped to get Wikiversity going in the first place. Indeed, one of the founding missions of Wikiversity was explicitly to try out new technology, to conduct original research on various levels. Yes, I know that was a sticking point with the board of trustees when Wikiversity was started too, so it wasn't entirely without controversy. Still, there are various sorts of original research that has been happening that is tied to the Wikimedia community... some of which are directly supported by the Foundation and others that are instead in the periphery and more side projects of a sub-set of the larger community. Some are rather well known, and others are much more obscure. Fine, I'll admit this is more of a research project to see if anything could be done here, and there is no guarantee that much may come from this. I'm not even suggesting that the WMF ought to give even modest support in the form of server space for experimentation on this concept or even permitting a wiki page that would act as a central community message board and idea center for something like this. That is something that can or can't happen, but it sort of seems rough that the idea is dismissed completely out of hand before it is even started in the first place. It is also unfortunate that even discussion about what sorts of ideas might be useful under such a project is shut down before the discussion starts at all. -- Robert Horning Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4be37c8e6053c3be433st01vuc ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:35 PM, robert_horn...@netzero.net robert_horn...@netzero.net wrote: -- There was a time when the Wikimedia Foundation, or rather those involved with the various sister projects, were interested in some leading edge and bleeding edge stuff. Considerable experimentation was encouraged and some amazing things happened that pushed ideas and concepts to some pretty interesting extremes. Much of what we know today as Wikipedia certainly wouldn't exist today. I got started in this whole mess back in the days when Gnupedia was rolled into Nupedia and those two communities merged together. I remember numerous discussions on even trying to come up with how to edit content, what sort of raw standards ought to be invoked, and how to get participants to show up and contribute what they knew. Using a wiki in a democratic fashion was actually a rather novel concept, and in fact brought in a whole new group of users. Seriously, with this sort of attitude, Wikipedia would have never even been tried in the first place. I am so glad this particular mindset was not in place back in those days. I've also been involved in working on the various sister projects, and even helped to get Wikiversity going in the first place. Indeed, one of the founding missions of Wikiversity was explicitly to try out new technology, to conduct original research on various levels. Yes, I know that was a sticking point with the board of trustees when Wikiversity was started too, so it wasn't entirely without controversy. Still, there are various sorts of original research that has been happening that is tied to the Wikimedia community... some of which are directly supported by the Foundation and others that are instead in the periphery and more side projects of a sub-set of the larger community. Some are rather well known, and others are much more obscure. Fine, I'll admit this is more of a research project to see if anything could be done here, and there is no guarantee that much may come from this. I'm not even suggesting that the WMF ought to give even modest support in the form of server space for experimentation on this concept or even permitting a wiki page that would act as a central community message board and idea center for something like this. That is something that can or can't happen, but it sort of seems rough that the idea is dismissed completely out of hand before it is even started in the first place. It is also unfortunate that even discussion about what sorts of ideas might be useful under such a project is shut down before the discussion starts at all. -- Robert Horning I'm not sure discussion has been shut down... No one who has posted speaks for anyone but themselves. I think there are some key differences that contribute to the reaction aside from what you see as an attitude problem. The reality is that websites with limited traffic are cheap, and the potential costs are limited. Supporting a virtual MMO world is expensive, with intense resource requirements. More importantly, an MMO world related to the WMF's mission is a much greater inventive leap (in my opinion) than an openly editable web reference. At the same time, I think you're probably right that some or even most of the entrepreneurial spirit has leached out of the Wikimedia community. This isn't necessarily surprising or even negative - as the projects mature, needs change, and incremental improvements are appropriately favored over radical experimentation. The WMF itself is still in the process of maturing into a stable organization sturdy enough to last for the long term, and it's rightly skeptical about proposed initiatives that could divert focus away from its core mission. Having said that, I would be very happy to see Milos' prediction about MMORPG-style general Internet navigation come true. If anyone does make a go of an encyclopedia in a virtual world, they can expect my support. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: On 7 May 2010 03:17, Dan Rosenthal swatjes...@gmail.com wrote: The obvious example that comes to mind is the 3D virtual world physics as a tool for disseminating knowledge. For instance, I was looking up various model Porsche race cars the other day on Wikipedia. No amount of text can truly describe the intangible differences in control between driving a Porsche and a Ferrari. If one could go into a virtual world and drive a virtual representation of one, we've filled a knowledge gap. Don't get hung up on the fact that this (used) to be a game, but rather view it as an open source 3D virtual world environment that can scale to an extremely large number of simultaneous users. It's a framework, which can be evolved over time -- that's something we should at least be keeping an eye on and encouraging, while exploring what ways we can integrate our content. -Dan 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent users. -Dan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal swatjes...@gmail.com wrote: On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. -- geni But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent users. That is virtual reality for its own sake, rather than for instructional benefits. And consider those concurrent users including children. There is a lot of research about the pedagogical and epistemological opportunities in VR, but the cases were it is clearly beneficial are not numerous and probably only useful on Wikiversity, and I doubt you will find anyone advocating for the educational advantages of interaction from .. concurrent [pseudonymous adults and children]. -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
Milos Rancic wrote: The MMORPG Ryzom goes Free Software [1]. Although it was just a matter of time, this event is very important for shaping our future. MMORPG is virtual reality and VR worlds will be [a significant part of] our future. Nice to see our resident futurist making some more predictions. This reminds me, we're almost halfway to May 29, 2011, the date by which the Google Wave client will be the basic component of a modern operating system, replacing the web browser. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/39129 I don't suppose you'd like to put a date on this one as well? By what date will VR be a significant part of our lives? And will Google Wave be embedded in VR, or will VR be embedded in Google Wave? -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
On May 7, 2010, at 12:21 AM, John Vandenberg wrote: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal swatjes...@gmail.com wrote: On May 6, 2010, at 10:24 PM, geni wrote: 3D objects could already be supported as .blend files although we don't at this point. -- geni But not the manipulation of them in a fully interactive physics based 3d environment with simultaneous interaction from thousands of other concurrent users. That is virtual reality for its own sake, rather than for instructional benefits. And consider those concurrent users including children. There is a lot of research about the pedagogical and epistemological opportunities in VR, but the cases were it is clearly beneficial are not numerous and probably only useful on Wikiversity, and I doubt you will find anyone advocating for the educational advantages of interaction from .. concurrent [pseudonymous adults and children]. -- John Vandenberg I strongly disagree. There are clear educational benefits for it, exemplified for instance by the massive amount of spending that the militaries around the world have spent on virtual worlds training systems such as VBS2 as educational devices. -Dan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Please stop any sarcasm. There are ideas worth the consideration, as with any newly available technological tool. We're aiming in this mailing list to shape the futur of the human knowledge through the foundation, right? So it is right to talk about the future, it's not an arrogance. Of course, any affirmation about the future must be considered an hypothesis, however convinced may seem his bearer, but also however unconvinced we are. Listen and think. Then answer so that our interlocutor listens and thinks too. Otherwise, all this mailing list is sheer struggle of prestige, power or noise. Now, one of the unsolved questions of the WMF is: how do we plan to communicate with analphabets? Even supposing we could bring them a (free) internet terminal, which is far from done, we would still face the barrier of language and the uselessness of writing. A first answer comes to my mind: with the oral or gestural tradition, using roleplay communicates an idea and interacts with the stranger. Because we cannot send people to each ethnical community and leave them as crucial interprets their whole life, this impossibility undermines seriously the main objective of the WMF.: Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. If we cannot immediately alphabetize people, should we abandon them? Can't we try alternate ways than text? Is the computer completely useless or has it other uses? Does it offer real options to communicate with indians or amerindians tribes, without teaching them nor forcing them? 3d worlds could tell myths (our myths and theirs) way better than words or scriptures. An itinerant wiki worker could interface those people with his or her wiki-device (labtop, mobile, pda, portable videoconference device, etc.) and show them things they would understand. Without forcing, just proposing. The wiki worker would teach the people to use the device to keep interacting with the wikimedia net when he's gone. Would they care to know something? Would they care to ask? Would they care to say something? To answer something? If we keep with this scenario, Wikiask mission would be to collect the question of an ethny, translate it to everybody, collect the answers of people who want to answer, and send back the various answers to the ethny through understandable means: a 3d world, a theater piece played by comedians, a film, a story in your language, an artisanal object, art, whichever channel the ethny understands. An example of communicative art: Roleplay is a narrative technique that makes understand and live an information (a situation). There are other techniques, but bear with this one for a while and let's develop the idea. There are humanitarians people and passionate ethnologues who know the exact difficulties of communicating with non-occidenal communities and who may even know some solutions. They may need funds, material, technologies, internet, videos and 3d worlds to give (never sell!) free access to knowledge. Then again, maybe not. Discuss. Note: I'm not necessarily fan of the 3d idea, but as Robert Honing said, we should embrace new ideas and juggle with them. Voltaire have said: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Don't lose the gigantisc scope of the goal. The roleplay idea and the 3d idea are just hypothesis. The point is, what's at stake is so deep that we should investigate any promising idea.) My 2p. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJL46fTAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LP0oIAIZCjl9hM5VgVUg4rMqRqciW bqbcaOV8bfNusSR5vzqjQIjWFABEBR971v6BBQd6rNlPmg52kI0oOb5hRBAG1FOd z/LW1WVlTK0kDYne/BCypx9LieOPT48XxfzISLfYOaaJX592sT8e8uxMd5Sv41hZ TwnFpAV5HqG4MY9d1XkKYQwPcVFYuO8zoj0O3uW6B2qiTuqIy7kvU2Rb/Tw9sqbp x1bTuIXVTthwBHOdvwUznFP1JvLp8JMccgmitoAu+BbwVA7F/tBw1RNH/jPZvAvD 960WoKecuHSDUn0aCtCaT7SjCeAuFDMFp3M6+COQHHeLcE29czGRmEOF+78O00E= =xKVW -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia
From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com No, it won't. People have been saying that for years and the fact remains that a screen full of a text with a few relevant images is a much better way to convey information than VR. openstreetmap.org is a very good way to convey spatial information, much better than a list of lat/lon coordinates. mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
