Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
I'm not sure any of us had the stated intention of helping you. What, exactly, were we expected to be helping you with? 2011/5/26 Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.pt: Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious mailing list where from «you know who» all the way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made an apparent innocuous statement that included: if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four volunteers who made a point of proving me right? YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. Y'all have a nice day. Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) Executive Editor, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADsticaLogística a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese The One and Only Editor to ever develop and complete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_universit%C3%A1rios#Projectos_em_cursoacademic projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
You appear to have a different definition of kind or nice word than I'm used to. The words have been posted to help you. That is both kind (because it helps) and nice (because it was volunteered, taking up time from my life, for your potential benefit alone). I cannot control if you find them helpful, if you are predisposed to a way of thinking that forces you to ignore or dismiss them, or anything else. None the less they are my understanding of the factual information you probably need to consider to obtain what you are describing. What is not kind or nice is to say things that provide unlikely expectations that will eventually be dashed. For example, agreeing with a perception that I didn't find accurate because it would please you. FT2 On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.ptwrote: Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious mailing list where from «you know who» all the way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made an apparent innocuous statement that included: if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four volunteers who made a point of proving me right? YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. Y'all have a nice day. Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) Executive Editor, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADsticaLogística a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese The One and Only Editor to ever develop and complete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_universit%C3%A1rios#Projectos_em_curso academic projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
I'm not sure any of us had the stated intention of helping you. What, exactly, were we expected to be helping you with? I think the message is a head's up that there might be problems on some Wikimedia projects, and that the pollyannish attitude that everything will work out if one is patient and persistent enough which I sometimes display may be pretty much whistling past the graveyard. From this, and other experiences, I think there may be problems with maintaining best practices in Wiktionary, Commons, and perhaps the Portuguese Wikipedia. Everything is tied it with an editor's personality though, so it is not possible to evaluate a project based on how they have handled one difficult issue or editor. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious mailing list where from «you know who» all the way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made an apparent innocuous statement that included: if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four volunteers who made a point of proving me right? YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. Y'all have a nice day. Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) Executive Editor, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADsticaLogística a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese The One and Only Editor to ever develop and complete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_universit%C3%A1rios#Projectos_em_cursoacademic projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community. Fred Could some consensus be reached on this matter? 6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you with the details of how extremely helpful he has been to me. Permission is granted to make public all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds. Any further questions? Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado The underlying dispute is on the Portuguese Wikipedia. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Only a info: V.A.P. Machado was not banned from pt.wiki because people does not like him. He was at frist banned from edit project and talk pages[1] due a ArbCom decision[2], but that could be revise each year[2]. Instead of change his behaivor he created a meat/sock puppet[3] and, since the ArbCom decision says that if he created a sock he would be banned for real, this time he was banned[4]. _ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/(351) 925 171 484 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.*** [1]: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:AbuseFilter/history/29/diff/prev/262http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:AbuseFilter/history/29/item/160 [2]: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conselho_de_arbitragem/Casos/2009-09-01_Virg%C3%ADlio_A._P._Machado [3]: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pedidos_a_verificadores/Arquivo/2010/04#Carmo_Cunha [4]: http://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Especial:Registotype=blockpage=Usuário%3AVapmachado 2011/5/25 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community. Fred Could some consensus be reached on this matter? 6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you with the details of how extremely helpful he has been to me. Permission is granted to make public all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds. Any further questions? Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado The underlying dispute is on the Portuguese Wikipedia. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
I'm sorry for not being as brilliant as you are, but I have read my message over and over and can't find any always there. I haven't made any mention of the number of active editors. I don't know what you mean when you say that obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly. Nobody ever said that about what you and others like you have done to me. You can't miss the step from that to if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. Just retrace your own steps. Please point an occasion, a message you haven't use to take another stab at me. For what purpose? I know. Doesn't anybody here? I never made any racist comments, and it saddened me very deeply that you found it appropriate to use that as an example, therefore associating me with that kind of behavior. I do not use the kind of language that you so proudly display, again in a despicable attempt to associate me with the kind of people who do. I wonder how such a nice person such as yourself can resort to that kind of behavior and be so welcome and so highly regarded. That's why you can't be my buddy, pal, friend and why you do have so much trouble feeling any kind of empathy. Nor do most people here. That is [...] why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or [standing up] to your support here. My apologies to the list for the personal tone of this message, but I believe things were getting a bit out of hand. Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado At 09:47 25-05-2011, you wrote: Yeah. It's news for me. You really need to be careful not to replace sometimes by always. We have a few hundreds of thousands of active editors over time. So obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly. What I'm missing is the step from that to if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. A bit of a difference. This is the kind of logic that (in racists) goes: A dark skinned man nudged me on the street and didn't say sorry all dark skinned people are rude Dark skinned people will fuck you over if they can. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Nor do most people here. That is possibly why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or jumping to your support here. FT2 On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.ptwrote: Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a sample from firsthand experiences. 1) From Meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_assistance The work on Meta was being done in an orderly manner until the disruption provoked and caused by those same people mentioned above. The user is the same. Trouble only started after the interference of the same people from the Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been a single block on any other Wikimedia project where these editors do not have any influence. The obvious conclusion is that the hostile behavior stays with that people, not this user. 2) From Wikimedia Outreach: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle Please edit those pages as though they were your own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach wiki. Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This project and/or these guys had the right stuff. When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user page had been deleted, my own name suppressed from my message and replaced by (Redacted). Later, my user page was restored with this quite amazing summary: restoring per request, it appears this user intended to out himself, removing personal address. It was decided that Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica is my personal address. Well I regret to have to let you know that Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica is not my personal address. It's one of my many mailing addresses. Apartado is the Portuguese word for Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there. From the Portuguese Wikipedia: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I 3) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I#Melhoria_de_predefini.C3.A7.C3.A3o Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já. 4) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I#O_Emplastro_I With all the
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_speechYes it is. Editing Wikipedia is a privilege granted to you by the permission of the Wikimedia Foundation, and can be revoked at any time for whatever reason that organization sees fit to do so. As a private website, Wikipedia has the legal right to block, ban, or otherwise restrict any individual from editing its pages, or accessing its content, with or even without reason. When you participate your only legal rights on Wikipedia are your http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToForkright to fork and your http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToLeaveright to leave. Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado At 16:19 22-05-2011, you wrote: Le 22/05/2011 10:54, Thomas Morton a écrit : we have no rights to participate in Wikipedia. Regardless of the debate from where it comes, is this an accurate decription of the rules and policies of Wikipedia? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
What is called community consensus WILL permit you to be banned from any project or mailing list. Even if there is no community consensus, anyone with the right buttons can do it without any need to justify, explain or write anything that remotely resembles something objective. Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required. Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado At 17:23 22-05-2011, you wrote: If the consensus of the community is to ban you from the project, even under spurious grounds, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. Tom Community consensus will not permit that. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining). So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I must remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia communities at least. Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less. Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results. FT2 On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.ptwrote: Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a sample from firsthand experiences. 1) From Meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_assistance The work on Meta was being done in an orderly manner until the disruption provoked and caused by those same people mentioned above. The user is the same. Trouble only started after the interference of the same people from the Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been a single block on any other Wikimedia project where these editors do not have any influence. The obvious conclusion is that the hostile behavior stays with that people, not this user. 2) From Wikimedia Outreach: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle Please edit those pages as though they were your own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach wiki. Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This project and/or these guys had the right stuff. When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user page had been deleted, my own name suppressed from my message and replaced by (Redacted). Later, my user page was restored with this quite amazing summary: restoring per request, it appears this user intended to out himself, removing personal address. It was decided that Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica is my personal address. Well I regret to have to let you know that Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica is not my personal address. It's one of my many mailing addresses. Apartado is the Portuguese word for Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there. From the Portuguese Wikipedia: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I 3) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I#Melhoria_de_predefini.C3.A7.C3.A3o Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já. 4) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_education_I#O_Emplastro_I With all the details of the help I got to be blocked for the first time. Moral of the story: I'm currently banned and my helper is King on the Portuguese Wikipedia, a fine example of a meritocracy. Even in these modest examples, if you find anything not verifiable, please let me know. 5) Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here. Another example: Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results. FT2 That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community. Fred Could some consensus be reached on this matter? 6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you with the details of how extremely helpful he has been to me. Permission is granted to make public all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds. Any further questions? Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado At 05:14 25-05-2011, you wrote: Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining). So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I must remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia communities at least. Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less. Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results. FT2 On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.ptwrote: Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 18:44, wjhon...@aol.com wrote: My point Fred, is there is no such animal. So calling something a private website is redundant, since all websites are private, there are no public websites. Certainly there are websites owned by governments, but they are not public in the sense above that there is guaranteed access to *modify* their contents. Let's turn it the other way: there is hardly _any_ objects on the internet where anyone have the legal *right* to do anything at all. (Be that websites or other services.) Local governmental sites may offer local citizens services which they do have legal right to access and the provider have no right to deny them access, but I'm sure even these sites have terms of service which makes it possible to deny these rights for certain behaviours. I doubt anyone would provide an internationally accessible service usable by people's personal rights, ever. So, the original question was wrong and the answer was proper: nobody have legal right to use the Wikimedia projects (or, in fact, any websites), and no court could probably enforce that against the terms of the services of the given site. (Maybe not even beyond that, at all.) Every websites are private property, and you're either a customer using the service, or related to the owner somehow; in all other cases you're fobidden to utilise someone else's resources, and you may be offered legal charges for that. g ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Le 22/05/2011 10:54, Thomas Morton a écrit : we have no rights to participate in Wikipedia. Regardless of the debate from where it comes, is this an accurate decription of the rules and policies of Wikipedia? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Yes. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FREESPEECH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FREESPEECHObviously you have your normal legal rights (i.e. if someone does something illegal, then it is a courts matter). But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. If the consensus of the community is to ban you from the project, even under spurious grounds, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. Tom On 22 May 2011 16:19, Pronoein prono...@gmail.com wrote: Le 22/05/2011 10:54, Thomas Morton a écrit : we have no rights to participate in Wikipedia. Regardless of the debate from where it comes, is this an accurate decription of the rules and policies of Wikipedia? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Le 22/05/2011 10:54, Thomas Morton a écrit : we have no rights to participate in Wikipedia. Regardless of the debate from where it comes, is this an accurate decription of the rules and policies of Wikipedia? Anyone who is willing and able to edit constructively and more or less follow our policies has a right to edit. The right is not enforceable in court (there IS no enforceable legal right) but is the policy of the community. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
If the consensus of the community is to ban you from the project, even under spurious grounds, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. Tom Community consensus will not permit that. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
In a message dated 5/22/2011 8:23:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, morton.tho...@googlemail.com writes: But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. You make the word private have no meaning. What would be a public website in that case? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
Thank you for your answer. I discovered that Wikipedia was not a bureaucracy[1] in the link you gave, that's encouraging. :) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_bureaucracy Le 22/05/2011 12:23, Thomas Morton a écrit : Yes. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FREESPEECH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FREESPEECHObviously you have your normal legal rights (i.e. if someone does something illegal, then it is a courts matter). But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. If the consensus of the community is to ban you from the project, even under spurious grounds, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. Tom On 22 May 2011 16:19, Pronoein prono...@gmail.com wrote: Le 22/05/2011 10:54, Thomas Morton a écrit : we have no rights to participate in Wikipedia. Regardless of the debate from where it comes, is this an accurate decription of the rules and policies of Wikipedia? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
In a message dated 5/22/2011 8:23:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, morton.tho...@googlemail.com writes: But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. You make the word private have no meaning. What would be a public website in that case? Legally, Wikipedia is private property belonging to a nonprofit corporation. If the United States government, or some other government, owned it and regulated it in such a way as to guarantee public access it would be a public website. As it is the community does regulate it in that way. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
I'm note sure I understand... Wikipedia is privately owned by the foundation. There is no real definition of public website, but I suppose a government website would be publicly owned (although that raises an interesting question as to your rights to access/contribute to such a website). The point is; you cannot say stopping me from editing Wikipedia is a violation of my right to free speech because the WMF (and the editor community, due to their relative control of the eco-system) only grants you the privilege of editing the site, which can be rescinded at any time, for any reason. As the page says... that is not intended to sound like being a jerk. It is just a practical response to those claiming the misconception they have a right to soapbox on the site. @Fred: Community consensus will not permit that. I'm not sure I follow... isn't that a paradox? :) Tom On 22 May 2011 17:25, wjhon...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/22/2011 8:23:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, morton.tho...@googlemail.com writes: But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. You make the word private have no meaning. What would be a public website in that case? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
As it is the community does regulate it in that way. No. People are banned or restricted all the time. The point of WP:FREESPEECH is to point out that those bannings can't be contested under the premise that the banned party has a right to edit. Yes, the community does regulate it this way. That is by convention and common sense, in keeping with the ideals. But if the community agreed tomorrow, by consensus, to ban me then that is it. And that... was the point in the context of the discussion :) Tom On 22 May 2011 17:31, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: In a message dated 5/22/2011 8:23:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, morton.tho...@googlemail.com writes: But the idea that I have a right to edit Wikipedia or You have no right to do that is incorrect, because WP is a private website. You make the word private have no meaning. What would be a public website in that case? Legally, Wikipedia is private property belonging to a nonprofit corporation. If the United States government, or some other government, owned it and regulated it in such a way as to guarantee public access it would be a public website. As it is the community does regulate it in that way. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
I'm note sure I understand... Wikipedia is privately owned by the foundation. There is no real definition of public website, but I suppose a government website would be publicly owned (although that raises an interesting question as to your rights to access/contribute to such a website). The point is; you cannot say stopping me from editing Wikipedia is a violation of my right to free speech because the WMF (and the editor community, due to their relative control of the eco-system) only grants you the privilege of editing the site, which can be rescinded at any time, for any reason. As the page says... that is not intended to sound like being a jerk. It is just a practical response to those claiming the misconception they have a right to soapbox on the site. @Fred: Community consensus will not permit that. I'm not sure I follow... isn't that a paradox? :) Tom Indeed. And should people editing in good faith be prevented from doing so Wikipedia would soon be toast. That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
In a message dated 5/22/2011 9:31:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredb...@fairpoint.net writes: Legally, Wikipedia is private property belonging to a nonprofit corporation. If the United States government, or some other government, owned it and regulated it in such a way as to guarantee public access it would be a public website. My point Fred, is there is no such animal. So calling something a private website is redundant, since all websites are private, there are no public websites. Certainly there are websites owned by governments, but they are not public in the sense above that there is guaranteed access to *modify* their contents. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
In a message dated 5/22/2011 9:31:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredb...@fairpoint.net writes: Legally, Wikipedia is private property belonging to a nonprofit corporation. If the United States government, or some other government, owned it and regulated it in such a way as to guarantee public access it would be a public website. My point Fred, is there is no such animal. So calling something a private website is redundant, since all websites are private, there are no public websites. Certainly there are websites owned by governments, but they are not public in the sense above that there is guaranteed access to *modify* their contents. There are public spaces which are enforced, for example, freedom of religion or of the press in the United States. But you are correct that words alone fail; such guarantees must be enforced by citizens with a commitment to them. But that is not fundamentally different from how Wikipedia, or any voluntary organization, works. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
