Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Дана Saturday 12 September 2009 20:03:32 Thomas Dalton написа: People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on. By that time that harm may have already been done. If that harm is minimal, then it might be worth the risk, but I don't think risking $3,500 of WMF donor's money to be minimal. Have you tried putting that on paper? Let's assume that 50% chance of chapter becoming competent and 50% chance of chapter becoming incompetent. I don't think you would deny that a competent chapter could increase donations from Portugal for, say $1,000 per year. Hence, $3,500 is a good use of donor's money. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/12 Yann Forget y...@forget-me.net: Thomas Dalton wrote: While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know. Why would I assume that someone knows how to do something they have never done before? Someone from the Portuguese chapter has already admitted they have very little experience. Note, I don't use the word incompetent as an insult, I just use it to mean what it means - not having a particular relevant competence. I am also shocked by this very broad brush. You are not just saying that they lack experience, or competence - you are saying that chapters are likely to misuse funds. The people setting up a Wikimedia chapter are usually extremely dedicated, and they have set up a board of competent Wikimedians to collaborate on decision making. They may not have experience running a non-profit, however they are likely to be extremely socially responsible to their members who are, for the most part, people they work with closely on the Wikimedia projects. If they are not responsible, the local memberships will dry up. -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/13 Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com: On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually. If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem. It's true that random dude in random country may not be an expert on incorporating a chapter-like organization (not a charity, because that's not required, or even a non-profit), but neither is anyone employed by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., and neither is any member of the Chapters Committee. Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/13 John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com: I am also shocked by this very broad brush. You are not just saying that they lack experience, or competence - you are saying that chapters are likely to misuse funds. You are putting words in my mouth. I haven't specified a probability that a randomly chosen chapter will misuse funds. I have said there is a significant chance they will make mistakes, which means the WMF should take significant care when deciding what to do with WMF funds. They shouldn't have blind faith in chapters to know what they are doing. Perhaps this is one of those cultural things - I am British and here charities are considered to have a moral and legal duty to take direct responsibility for spending money people give them in an appropriate way. Giving money to another charity and trusting them to make good decisions about what to spend it on would, in fact, be illegal here. I should clarify that I am complaining about the WMF's actions here, not those of the Portuguese Wikimedians (who both I and they have said, didn't know any better - there is nothing to suggest they acted in bad faith). It isn't just the Portuguese grant that I disagree with - there are things WMUK requested that I did not support and would not have granted had I been the WMF. For example, WMUK requests £1000 to buy a laptop, that is completely ridiculous, there is no way we need such a high-spec laptop for giving a few presentations. I would not have granted that money; the WMF did. (WMUK has now requested permission to reallocate that £1000 to buy a data projector and other peripherals, which is a far better idea, and I hope and expect the WMF will allow it.) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually. If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem. I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your statement. Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity. I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a charity in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither. That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/13 Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com: On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually. If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem. I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your statement. You take offence when people say something you deem to be mistaken? Or are you suggesting I knew what I said was untrue and said it to be intentionally malicious? Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity. I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a charity in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither. I've looked it up, and I stand corrected - non-profit status is on the guideline page, not the requirements page. I knew I had seen it there somewhere. That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience. If the WMF doesn't know what is appropriate and the local chapter people can be trusted to know what is appropriate (in some cases the local chapter may have the necessary experience and the WMF can defer to their expertise, but that isn't always the case), then the WMF needs to do the necessary research. They are responsible for what money that people have given them is spent on, so it falls to them to find out what spending is and isn't appropriate. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
can someone kill this thread? Thanks. 2009/9/13 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/13 Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com: On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually. If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem. I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your statement. You take offence when people say something you deem to be mistaken? Or are you suggesting I knew what I said was untrue and said it to be intentionally malicious? Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity. I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a charity in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither. I've looked it up, and I stand corrected - non-profit status is on the guideline page, not the requirements page. I knew I had seen it there somewhere. That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience. If the WMF doesn't know what is appropriate and the local chapter people can be trusted to know what is appropriate (in some cases the local chapter may have the necessary experience and the WMF can defer to their expertise, but that isn't always the case), then the WMF needs to do the necessary research. They are responsible for what money that people have given them is spent on, so it falls to them to find out what spending is and isn't appropriate. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/13 effe iets anders effeietsand...@gmail.com: can someone kill this thread? Thanks. Why? Misuse of foundation funds is very much within the scope of this list. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Thomas Dalton wrote: 2009/9/11 Waldir Pimenta wal...@email.com: Hi Thomas, and all who showed concern about Wikimedia Portugal's planned expenses. I am one of the persons who calculated that budget, and thus I feel I should provide you with some information. Thank you very much, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue. Indeed! I don't fault the Portuguese Wikipedians in this at all. They acted in the way they felt was best for their own interests. Ec ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/9/13 effe iets anders effeietsand...@gmail.com: can someone kill this thread? Thanks. Why? Misuse of foundation funds is very much within the scope of this list. Yes, but misuse of this list is very much within the scope of killing the thread. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/12 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: Fair enough, Brion :-) -- I'm just going to amplify and elaborate a little on Jennifer's original mail. I think some of this is on the meta page, but I'll say it here anyway. The purpose of the chapters grant process is to make money available to people to get good work done. The basic assumption underpinning it is that those people know best what they need to make progress towards our shared goals. They know their culture best, they know their situation best, and they know best what will help them get stuff done. While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious - Portugal isn't on this list of officially recognized chapters[1], The chapter has been approved for creation, but has not been created yet, so it's not on wmf:Local chapters. (Last time WMBR was on there without being registered, people complained, so now we wait until there's an actual organization in place). However, it is mentioned on Meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters and the approval resolution can be found on foundationwiki: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Approval_of_Wikimedia_Portugal -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Thomas Dalton wrote: While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know. Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/12 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. I'm a bit worried about this sort of approach. Taken to extremes, we wouldn't let the local chapter organise itself at all, because clearly none of them would know how to do it until after they've had experience running it, etc etc etc. People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on. -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/12 Yann Forget y...@forget-me.net: Thomas Dalton wrote: While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know. Why would I assume that someone knows how to do something they have never done before? Someone from the Portuguese chapter has already admitted they have very little experience. Note, I don't use the word incompetent as an insult, I just use it to mean what it means - not having a particular relevant competence. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/12 Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk: 2009/9/12 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. I'm a bit worried about this sort of approach. Taken to extremes, we wouldn't let the local chapter organise itself at all, because clearly none of them would know how to do it until after they've had experience running it, etc etc etc. I think it makes perfect sense to help people the first time they do something. People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on. By that time that harm may have already been done. If that harm is minimal, then it might be worth the risk, but I don't think risking $3,500 of WMF donor's money to be minimal. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions. Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually. It's true that random dude in random country may not be an expert on incorporating a chapter-like organization (not a charity, because that's not required, or even a non-profit), but neither is anyone employed by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., and neither is any member of the Chapters Committee. There are still 170+ potential Wikimedia chapters with zero persons experienced in doing the kind of thing we're doing. It's totally new ground, and to assume incompetence on anyone's part is simply bad faith. Now, there is room for better coordination and more oversight. It would, for instance, be nice if there were more coordination between the WMF Inc. staff and the committee facilitating chapter development. I'd like to see more discussion on the process, but there's no need to presume idiocy on the part of people who know their culture and legal system better than you and I do. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Why should all Wikimedians have the same culture and ideas and way of thinking as you? Why should Wikimedians who have a culture be excluded from setting up a chapter? Besides that I think you're paraphrasing way too much. The grant request only suggested that this kind of costs are just costs that have to be made to work efficiently. The chapter asked the Foundation to pay for it the first year, so that they could focus on useful stuff. I hope they will be able to generate these and other funds themselves from next year onwards. Lodewijk 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/11 Jennifer Riggs jri...@wikimedia.org: However the word and concept of frugality differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people. If we were talking about meetings with people from outside the Wikimedia movement, I would agree with you, but I really can't see how it can be insulting not to provide food at a meeting of Wikimedians when the people attending the meeting and the people organising the meeting are exactly the same people. If people are only willing to set up a chapter if the WMF buys them lunch once a month, I don't want those people setting up a chapter. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Hi Thomas, and all who showed concern about Wikimedia Portugal's planned expenses. I am one of the persons who calculated that budget, and thus I feel I should provide you with some information. First of all, I'd point out that none of us has any experience in nation-wide nonprofit organizations. We thus had no way to know what we would need to make it work, and chose to play safe. Obviously, we were aware that the value for meetings was fairly high, and we pointed that out in our proposal, as you can read in the page you linked: We are (...) willing to reduce the frequency of the meetings if the total value is considered too high And we indeed were advised to do so, when the grant was conceded: The award was reduced from the requested USD $7,909 to encourage a smaller budget for travel. Let me assure you, we are as much as yourself concerned in not wasting the grant's money with lunches for the members. We have plenty of planned activities (as you can see in http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Portugal/Actividades) for which we didn't include a budget in our request, since it was for the start-up only. But we are very much willing to find ways to meet less and apply the money in these projects instead. We would love to receive advice on how we can make the chapter work (well) with people so spread across the country (almost all the involved people live in different cities), and since much of the money WMF has was volunteer-contributed, we will take into account the wishes of the community. If you feel we should meet less (how many times do you think are enough? let us know your thoughts on our mailing list: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org), then we certainly will consider your advice. Thanks, Waldir On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com: There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info. I must say, I am amazed that this was approved: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 effe iets anders effeietsand...@gmail.com: Why should all Wikimedians have the same culture and ideas and way of thinking as you? Why should Wikimedians who have a culture be excluded from setting up a chapter? We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/11 Waldir Pimenta wal...@email.com: Hi Thomas, and all who showed concern about Wikimedia Portugal's planned expenses. I am one of the persons who calculated that budget, and thus I feel I should provide you with some information. Thank you very much, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue. We would love to receive advice on how we can make the chapter work (well) with people so spread across the country (almost all the involved people live in different cities), and since much of the money WMF has was volunteer-contributed, we will take into account the wishes of the community. If you feel we should meet less (how many times do you think are enough? let us know your thoughts on our mailing list: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org), then we certainly will consider your advice. I'll offer you some advice here - I'd rather not join a non-English mailing list and I don't like to email a list I am not subscribed to. WMUK has almost all its meetings on IRC (every week at first, now down to once a fortnight usually), which are completely free. It is not quite as efficient as face-to-face meetings, but it does work. We have our Annual General Meeting (AGM - you may call it a General Assembly or similar, a meeting of all members) in person (at the last one the only cost was travel for the board, we got the room for free and I think there was free tea and coffee, everything else people paid for themselves - the next one will be part of a larger conference and we are trying to get sponsorship for that). There is also a plan for one board meeting a year in person in addition to the AGM, I expect the only cost for that will be travel again. We find people are generally happy to buy their own food when we meet in a pub or similar, or eat before they arrive (we usually start things around 1-2pm so people can get there since we are spread out all over the country and have a terrible train system). The conference we are planning will probably include a lunch, but it will either be paid for by sponsorship or a registration fee for attendees, it won't come out of general charity funds. I wish you the best of luck and offer you whatever assistance and advice I can - just ask. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/11 Waldir Pimenta wal...@email.com: We would love to receive advice on how we can make the chapter work (well) with people so spread across the country (almost all the involved people live in different cities), and since much of the money WMF has was volunteer-contributed, we will take into account the wishes of the community. If you feel we should meet less (how many times do you think are enough? let us know your thoughts on our mailing list: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org), then we certainly will consider your advice. WMUK (both versions) made very sure that official meetings were explicitly allowed to be conducted online, not just in person. This means an IRC meeting can be official (and a lot less nuisance). - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Waldir Pimenta wal...@email.com wrote: Hi Thomas, and all who showed concern about Wikimedia Portugal's planned expenses. I am one of the persons who calculated that budget, and thus I feel I should provide you with some information. First of all, I'd point out that none of us has any experience in nation-wide nonprofit organizations. We thus had no way to know what we would need to make it work, and chose to play safe. Obviously, we were aware that the value for meetings was fairly high, and we pointed that out in our proposal, as you can read in the page you linked: We are (...) willing to reduce the frequency of the meetings if the total value is considered too high And we indeed were advised to do so, when the grant was conceded: The award was reduced from the requested USD $7,909 to encourage a smaller budget for travel. Let me assure you, we are as much as yourself concerned in not wasting the grant's money with lunches for the members. We have plenty of planned activities (as you can see in http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Portugal/Actividades) for which we didn't include a budget in our request, since it was for the start-up only. But we are very much willing to find ways to meet less and apply the money in these projects instead. We would love to receive advice on how we can make the chapter work (well) with people so spread across the country (almost all the involved people live in different cities), and since much of the money WMF has was volunteer-contributed, we will take into account the wishes of the community. If you feel we should meet less (how many times do you think are enough? let us know your thoughts on our mailing list: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org), then we certainly will consider your advice. Thanks, Waldir Thanks for commenting, Waldir. The last thing anyone wants to do is discourage or impede the formation of a new Wikimedia chapter, and I think any constructive criticism of the grant process should focus on the Foundation and not recipients. As you say, new chapters are *new* - you have the opportunity to benefit from the experience of the Foundation staff and other chapter groups, and the grant review process should be seen as an avenue to deliver that experience in addition to funding. I'm curious - Portugal isn't on this list of officially recognized chapters[1], but the grant criteria[2] say that grants are contingent on chapter recognition by the WMF. Has that happened and just not made it to meta? Thanks, Nathan [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Nathan wrote: I'm curious - Portugal isn't on this list of officially recognized chapters[1], but the grant criteria[2] say that grants are contingent on chapter recognition by the WMF. Has that happened and just not made it to meta? I'm not sure what part of the criteria you're reading to paraphrase them in those contingent terms. To quote from the page itself, If your chapter is still in development, you can still apply for funds (especially when they are relevant to getting your chapter off the ground). --Michael Snow [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grant ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/11 Michael Snow wikipe...@verizon.net: Nathan wrote: I'm curious - Portugal isn't on this list of officially recognized chapters[1], but the grant criteria[2] say that grants are contingent on chapter recognition by the WMF. Has that happened and just not made it to meta? I'm not sure what part of the criteria you're reading to paraphrase them in those contingent terms. To quote from the page itself, If your chapter is still in development, you can still apply for funds (especially when they are relevant to getting your chapter off the ground). I'm curious, in that situation, who does the WMF actually give the money to? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@verizon.net wrote: I'm not sure what part of the criteria you're reading to paraphrase them in those contingent terms. To quote from the page itself, If your chapter is still in development, you can still apply for funds (especially when they are relevant to getting your chapter off the ground). --Michael Snow [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grant -- You're right, Michael - in an e-mail to the other thread I was a bit more clear with my question, which was in two parts - had the chapter been recognized, and if not was ChapCom involved? (I have no reason to doubt this, just thought I'd ask.) I also asked how money was disbursed in the absence of a legal entity to take responsibility for it, and what monitoring steps were planned, which I'm still curious about. Sorry for the unclear wording. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Hoi, The likely and obvious answer is to someone who is known and trusted to be involved in this. Thanks, GerardM 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/11 Michael Snow wikipe...@verizon.net: Nathan wrote: I'm curious - Portugal isn't on this list of officially recognized chapters[1], but the grant criteria[2] say that grants are contingent on chapter recognition by the WMF. Has that happened and just not made it to meta? I'm not sure what part of the criteria you're reading to paraphrase them in those contingent terms. To quote from the page itself, If your chapter is still in development, you can still apply for funds (especially when they are relevant to getting your chapter off the ground). I'm curious, in that situation, who does the WMF actually give the money to? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food. This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here? Philippe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 Philippe Beaudette pbeaude...@wikimedia.org: On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food. This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here? It is that simple. If we were talking about having lunch with people outside the Wikimedia movement, it would be different because we have to comply with what they expect. We can expect people within the Wikimedia movement to change their expectations to fit what is best for the movement. It is not best for the movement to be spending money of their lunch when they are perfectly capable of getting their own lunch (as evidenced by the fact that they would be eating if they didn't go to the meeting). Either buying Wikimedian's lunch is a good use of money, or it isn't, culture doesn't factor into it. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it. thanks, GerardM 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/11 Philippe Beaudette pbeaude...@wikimedia.org: On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food. This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here? It is that simple. If we were talking about having lunch with people outside the Wikimedia movement, it would be different because we have to comply with what they expect. We can expect people within the Wikimedia movement to change their expectations to fit what is best for the movement. It is not best for the movement to be spending money of their lunch when they are perfectly capable of getting their own lunch (as evidenced by the fact that they would be eating if they didn't go to the meeting). Either buying Wikimedian's lunch is a good use of money, or it isn't, culture doesn't factor into it. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it. If they value themselves over our goals, they are entitled to those values, but I want nothing to do with them. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of knowledge to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to. Thanks, GerardM 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it. If they value themselves over our goals, they are entitled to those values, but I want nothing to do with them. PS Even if you are right, surely the relevant values are those of the donors, not the people spending the money? If they were spending money they had fundraised it would be a different matter, since the donors would be from the same culture, but that isn't the case. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of knowledge to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to. You can't waste other people's money and then say That's our culture (and I note, nobody from Portugal seems to be making that argument). If you accept that, you have to accept anything. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
the main question should be whether it is worth it in that case. I.e., will it improve the chances of the chapter becoming successful? And I believe you are just as I am not able to make that estimate without at least some understanding of Portuguese culture. Lodewijk 2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of knowledge to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to. You can't waste other people's money and then say That's our culture (and I note, nobody from Portugal seems to be making that argument). If you accept that, you have to accept anything. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 effe iets anders effeietsand...@gmail.com: the main question should be whether it is worth it in that case. I.e., will it improve the chances of the chapter becoming successful? And I believe you are just as I am not able to make that estimate without at least some understanding of Portuguese culture. I would change improve to significantly improve (relative to the cost), but otherwise I agree, that is the question. In the absence of evidence to the contrary (which nobody has even attempted to provide), I think the default should be to assume there is no significant difference between Portugal and other western European countries. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
May I respectfully suggest that further discussion on this thread be taken offlist until new arguments come to light which have not already been posted? -- brion ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
Fair enough, Brion :-) -- I'm just going to amplify and elaborate a little on Jennifer's original mail. I think some of this is on the meta page, but I'll say it here anyway. The purpose of the chapters grant process is to make money available to people to get good work done. The basic assumption underpinning it is that those people know best what they need to make progress towards our shared goals. They know their culture best, they know their situation best, and they know best what will help them get stuff done. Because of that, the intent of the Wikimedia Foundation is to provide a simple lightweight process for grants approval. Many chapters have never applied for a grant in any context: they are learning how to do it, and we want to support that learning. We have an obligation to apply some scrutiny to their requests (and we do), but we also acknowledge that we at the Foundation may or may not have any particular expertise in Portugese culture, or German culture, or Indian. We don't pretend to be the experts in their specific context. To that end, we're comfortable applying some scrutiny and finetuning, which Jennifer has done --- but we do also want to trust them, and to assume good faith. I am confident that the Portugese grant recipients, like the other recipients, will put the money to good use. They're required to report on what they did with it, and we expect that if the money turns out to be too much, or the need turns out to be somewhat different than planned, they will tell us so, and we will work out something sensible that is not wasteful. Probably some mistakes will be made, and we will learn from that. That will be unavoidable, and is also a desirable part of the process. Part of the purpose is to learn -- all of us, together. And that is also why the process is public: so people other than the Foundation and the grant recipients, can comment and influence and share and learn. On the whole, I am confident the money will be well-used, and will achieve its goal: supporting people in advancing our shared mission, in ways that make sense in their context. Thanks, Sue On 11/09/2009, Brion Vibber br...@wikimedia.org wrote: May I respectfully suggest that further discussion on this thread be taken offlist until new arguments come to light which have not already been posted? -- brion ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation 415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/10 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: Hi Thomas! Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26 proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop. The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when considering what to request funding for in future. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/10 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: Hi Thomas! Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26 proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop. The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when considering what to request funding for in future. There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this list in not quite complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading. Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos) Wikimedia NYC-personal view ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com: There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info. Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this list in not quite complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading. They may still be waiting to hear back from the other chapters. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com: There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info. I must say, I am amazed that this was approved: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com: There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info. I must say, I am amazed that this was approved: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I agree. I doubt people are donating to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for their lunches. The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/10 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com: I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I agree. I doubt people are donating to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for their lunches. The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either. I have no objection, in principle, to travel and admin costs - WMUK paid for them out of our first membership fees. We didn't travel that much, though - I think there was one face-to-face meeting to actually sign things, everything else was done online. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Hoi, I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please remember that there are different cultures where things are done in different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ... Thanks, GerardM 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com: There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guidance Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info. I must say, I am amazed that this was approved: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
2009/9/10 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please remember that there are different cultures where things are done in different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ... Nonsense. If British Wikimedians can afford their own food, so can Portuguese Wikimedians. They can bring a packed lunch from home if they want - they would be eating anyway. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 22:21, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/10 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please remember that there are different cultures where things are done in different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ... Nonsense. If British Wikimedians can afford their own food, so can Portuguese Wikimedians. They can bring a packed lunch from home if they want - they would be eating anyway. Once in a while does not harm, I have to agree with Thomas on this one. As a matter of fact, the amount is irrelevant to me, it's the whole idea of having face to face meetings 12 (twelve!) times in a year that I find incredible. In a country like Australia, or even the US where getting people together even just once might cost that kind of money, I would have found the expense justified. In a country like Portugal, I am sorry, I don't. Cultural differences may exist, but there is no chapter that I know of which does a monthly face to face meeting of their board (heck, if Wikimedia France had that kind of money, we would!). And if they do, they manage to get the funds together, as Thomas puts it, especially for the meals. If anything, this helps measure the commitment of people to making the chapter work. What happened to volunteers eating sandwiches and fruits while sitting in a café with free wifi? So yeah, I must say that I would have brought down this grant to around 1000 USD for a first face to face meeting in order to get things going, and would have only included legal fees, renting rooms and travel, for example. Delphine -- ~notafish NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
The discussion about a budget line item being appropriate in one context and not in the next has been very interesting to me. And especially in this case as it involves the provision of food, which is one of the most deeply held cultural norms in many communities. Frugality is certainly a consideration for the WMF. I can say with my staff hat on that while we do get generous grants from foundations to help support your amazing work, everyone here also thinks about the $5 that was donated by a student and feels a responsibility to that student. However the word and concept of frugality differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people. In many cultures I've worked in, if you didn't bring cigarettes, you couldn't get a goat to listen to you. These may seem to be extreme cases, but I'm thinking about WMF and the Wikimedia movement as truly global. So I don't think we should dismiss this concept just because currently we aren't working with any people who require cigarettes before thinking about editing a Wikipedia. I have no idea what the cultural norms for providing food at initial meetings are in Portugal or many other places. I just add my crumb to the discussion as a reminder that if we are wearing limited cultural lenses when we create policy, it will forever limit us to working within communities who are interested and able to live within those restrictions. Jennifer Riggs foundation-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: Send foundation-l mailing list submissions to foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to foundation-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org You can reach the person managing the list at foundation-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of foundation-l digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton) 2. Re: Use of moderation (Austin Hair) 3. Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (Mike.lifeguard) 4. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Pharos) 5. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton) 6. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton) 7. Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (David Gerard) 8. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Chad) 9. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton) 10. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Gerard Meijssen) 11. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:41:07 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101041q3d6d869foe02cb48c012cb...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2009/9/10 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: Hi Thomas! Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26 proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop. The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when considering what to request funding for in future. -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:06:20 -0500 From: Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Use of moderation To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: e2a50e360909101106m6cc6a0eao51f41424f86c2...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottm...@gmx.net wrote: Austin Hair wrote: My ideal, personally, is something more like nntp--and while I'm perfectly happy to turn over the list to some other technology, I don't know that this is the magic solution, and I agree with Tim that it risks killing what good we do have with the existing methods. I'm reading and posting to the list using nntp. foundation-l is distributed by gmane.org as the (pseudo) newsgroup news:gemane.org.wikimedia.foundation on the server news.gmane.org along with all the other Wikimedia mailing lists and it is by far the most comfortable
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
2009/9/11 Jennifer Riggs jri...@wikimedia.org: However the word and concept of frugality differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people. If we were talking about meetings with people from outside the Wikimedia movement, I would agree with you, but I really can't see how it can be insulting not to provide food at a meeting of Wikimedians when the people attending the meeting and the people organising the meeting are exactly the same people. If people are only willing to set up a chapter if the WMF buys them lunch once a month, I don't want those people setting up a chapter. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009-
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Jennifer Riggsjri...@wikimedia.org wrote: The discussion about a budget line item being appropriate in one context and not in the next has been very interesting to me. And especially in this case as it involves the provision of food, which is one of the most deeply held cultural norms in many communities. Frugality is certainly a consideration for the WMF. I can say with my staff hat on that while we do get generous grants from foundations to help support your amazing work, everyone here also thinks about the $5 that was donated by a student and feels a responsibility to that student. However the word and concept of frugality differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people. In many cultures I've worked in, if you didn't bring cigarettes, you couldn't get a goat to listen to you. These may seem to be extreme cases, but I'm thinking about WMF and the Wikimedia movement as truly global. So I don't think we should dismiss this concept just because currently we aren't working with any people who require cigarettes before thinking about editing a Wikipedia. I have no idea what the cultural norms for providing food at initial meetings are in Portugal or many other places. I just add my crumb to the discussion as a reminder that if we are wearing limited cultural lenses when we create policy, it will forever limit us to working within communities who are interested and able to live within those restrictions. Jennifer Riggs Thanks Jennifer for your comment. I hope that people go a little easy in their responses to this e-mail, so that we don't accidentally discourage Foundation staffers from replying to this list. I have some questions, Jennifer, if you don't mind: * The idea of tailoring funding to cultural norms is valid, in theory, but I personally have a hard time understanding what major cultural distinctions separate Portugal from other European chapters in this regard. Does allowing for cultural norms in funding grants require that the grant-makers familiarize themselves with the relevant norms? (I was originally going to ask if you were aware of characteristics unique to Portugal on this, but you've written that you are not). * I'm curious about the process of distributing funding like this in general, and what criteria for a pre-existing structure or evidence of community support you look for ahead of making grants - and in the same vein, what sort of follow up is planned to ensure funding is spent and appropriately. If I'm wrong please let me know, but is it accurate that the chapter is in its earliest stages, with no chapter agreement, no review or involvement from ChapCom, limited organizing activity on wiki and no legal structure for bearing responsibility for money? * Was there a series of off-wiki exchanges with the Portuguese chapter folks about the best way to utilize funding, and whether face to face meetings were appropriate for an extended series of planning meetings? * Will the reaction to this grant will influence future grants, whether similar requests and grants will be publicized in the future (and to what extent)? What type of engagement the Foundation would like with the community on the issue of community funding? Hopefully this doesn't come across as entirely critical; I haven't seen other finalized grants, don't know anything about the behind-the-scenes communication, or even whether extenuating circumstances (such as all founding members in fact living in different cities) make the funding level more appropriate than it seems on face value. Thanks, Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
Once again, thank you for this. One question: 2009/9/9 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: Jennifer worked with Sue, Erik Moeller and Veronique to review and evaluate proposals submitted through the Chapters Funding Request process. Twenty-six of thirty proposals received were approved. Recipients will be posting descriptions of their events and lessons learned on Meta, linked from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants I emailed Jennifer shortly after the requests were approved asking if the details of what was and wasn't approved would be made public and was told it would once the chapters had all been contacted and had had a chance to accept the grants. As far as I can see, that information has yet to be made public. Has that plan changed or is there just a delay? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
