Re: foundation-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 13
Em 11-12-2009 18:20, Brian Cameron escreveu: If there is enough people to do a vote, that's great. My vote: -1 I do not think that people should be discouraged from suggesting rules for the GNOME community, and a reaction like leaving the GNU community because Richard made a suggestion could be interpreted that way, I think. We can always say no. Richard Stallman said: There are many ways to implement such a rule, of which block the whole blog is about the toughest one we might consider. I'd suggest rather to try a mild approach; I'm sure that can do the job. Richard's suggestion that a mild approach may be appropriate does not seem over-the-top to me. Perhaps a mild approach could be something simple like a disclaimer on planet that highlights that some information on planet may advertise non-free software, and we want to make clear that GNOME does not endorse non-free software and instead encourages people to consider free alternatives. might be a reasonably mild and acceptable solution? I would prefer to see such a disclaimer, actually. Perhaps we should also make the disclaimer say something about hunting. I have a personal blog and when I asked planet.openmoko.org to add my posts, I gave them the RSS feed corresponding to posts under the tag OpenMoko. Perhaps it would be a simpler suggestion to pass on the aggregated bloggers that after date X only posts with the tag GNOME will be aggregated? Rui ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: foundation-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 13
(I'm replying the two of you at the same time in an attempt at reducing the thread's size) On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:20:50 -0600 Brian Cameron wrote: Richard's suggestion that a mild approach may be appropriate does not seem over-the-top to me. Perhaps a mild approach could be something simple like a disclaimer on planet... I don't think Richard is suggesting that as mild approach we should just put such a disclaimer on the planet while still allowing planet contributors to talk about proprietary software. Let's take a look at one of Richard's quotes: On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:38:07 -0500 Richard Stallman wrote: They should not do this, unless VmWare becomes free software. GNOME should not provide proprietary software developers with a platform to present non-free software as a good or legitimate thing. This goes a lot further than the mild approach disclaimer that some information on planet may advertise non-free software, and we want to make clear that GNOME does not endorse non-free software and instead encourages people to consider free alternatives. What Richard is asking for, is a rule: Perhaps the statement of Planet GNOME's philosophy should be interpreted differently. It should not invite people to talk about their proprietary software projects just because they are also GNOME contributors. And here he writes about that rule: The most minimal support for the free software movement is to refrain from going directly against it; that is, to avoid presenting proprietary software as legitimate. I think Planet GNOME should have a rule to this effect. ^^ On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 09:51 +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: I have a personal blog and when I asked planet.openmoko.org to add my posts, I gave them the RSS feed corresponding to posts under the tag OpenMoko. Perhaps it would be a simpler suggestion to pass on the aggregated bloggers that after date X only posts with the tag GNOME will be aggregated? This is what Stormy replied in the thread: From: Stormy Peters stormy.pet...@gmail.com Date: 12/10/2009 03:46:37 PM (Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:46:37 -0700) Planet GNOME is about people and we display everyone's full blog feed as it represents them. ^^ ^ There are people that work on proprietary software as well as GNOME and that's who they are. I don't think we should reject people because they don't agree with us 100% of the time. [CUT about hunting] Now, if they aren't doing any GNOME work and all they talk about it non-free, non-GNOME software, that's different. Stormy I agree with Stormy here: People can choose to have a tag on english, which is what I did because some people complained about my Dutch posts and this was proposed by the planet maintainers as resolution. But for example Lionel Dricot, a French speaking Belgian, told us in this thread that he enjoys reading Reinhout's Dutch posts (Reinhout is from the Netherlands) to practice his Dutch knowledge. This is just to illustrate what going full monty on gnome tags will have as impact. It would change the entire philosophy of the planet. The same philosophy that made it a success would be changed into a cold one. I'm against the proposal because the planet is doing just fine. Why is that so hard for some people to accept? Cheers, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: foundation-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 13
Philip: On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:20:50 -0600 Brian Cameron wrote: Richard's suggestion that a mild approach may be appropriate does not seem over-the-top to me. Perhaps a mild approach could be something simple like a disclaimer on planet... I don't think Richard is suggesting that as mild approach we should just put such a disclaimer on the planet while still allowing planet contributors to talk about proprietary software. Let's take a look at one of Richard's quotes: Richard is free to suggest what he thinks should be done, as are we all. The GNOME Foundation is free to resolve this problem in the way that we think makes the most sense, after discussion. I think that, in general, most people in the GNOME community think highly of free software and are interested in promoting it. I think Richard has correctly highlighted the fact that the GNOME Planet could better promote free software. Figuring out how to make GNOME Planet better promote GNOME and free software is probably a better way to focus on this problem. On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:38:07 -0500 Richard Stallman wrote: They should not do this, unless VmWare becomes free software. GNOME should not provide proprietary software developers with a platform to present non-free software as a good or legitimate thing. This goes a lot further than the mild approach disclaimer that some information on planet may advertise non-free software, and we want to make clear that GNOME does not endorse non-free software and instead encourages people to consider free alternatives. What Richard is asking for, is a rule: Just because Richard is asking for a rule does not mean that a rule is the best way to solve the problem. That's why we are discussing. I am also not in favor of any rules that have a negative impact on our culture. People can choose to have a tag on english, which is what I did because some people complained about my Dutch posts and this was proposed by the planet maintainers as resolution. But for example Lionel Dricot, a French speaking Belgian, told us in this thread that he enjoys reading Reinhout's Dutch posts (Reinhout is from the Netherlands) to practice his Dutch knowledge. This is just to illustrate what going full monty on gnome tags will have as impact. It would change the entire philosophy of the planet. The same philosophy that made it a success would be changed into a cold one. I'm against the proposal because the planet is doing just fine. Why is that so hard for some people to accept? I agree with you that trying to use tags to solve this problem is not the best way to solve the problem, for the reasons you highlight. However, since this problem seems to really happen only on rare occasion, and since it does not seem that any non-free organizations are really trying to use GNOME Planet to do any real advertising, then perhaps a disclaimer link to highlight the GNOME community's stance on the issue, and to provide educational links to people who want to learn more about the importance of free software, would be a reasonable improvement. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Gnome supports both the free software movement as well as proprietary developers, and that is why Gnome for years has encouraged the use of the LGPL license for all of its libraries. The decision you and I made, in the early days, was to use the LGPL for the more basic and general libraries, so that proprietary programs could work with GNOME, but to use the GPL for more advanced libraries so that they would give an advantage to free applications. We decided this, not as a way to support proprietary developers, but rather to compete with KDE and Qt. Proprietary software developers could use Qt (by buying a license). If they could not use GNOME's basic libraries, that would put GNOME at a disadvantage, and the result could be that KDE with proprietary Qt might triumph. Now that Qt is free software, beating it in competition is less crucial. We might not have a reason to use the LGPL for some of these libraries if we were deciding it now. So I hope that the GNOME policy about library licensing has not moved towards more use of the LGPL than in the past. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Is GNOME part of any anti-proprietary software movement? that terminology didn't come from me. I would rather describe what we are doing in positive terms: GNOME is part of the free software movement, which strives to give users freedom. I don't think so and I've never seen it like that. I guess you have not heard how GNOME came to be. We launched GNOME to defend the free software community against a particular proprietary program, Qt; against the danger that people might come to regard that proprietary program as essential for a usable GNU/Linux system. So GNOME not merely part of a system that we developed for the sake of freedom. GNOME was developed specifically to protect freedom. There are no clearer examples of software which exists for the sake of freedom than GNOME. I think the GNOME Foundation should do more to inform the community about this. Currently, it seems, the message is not getting across. If people can look at Planet GNOME, and the rest of what the Foundation says, and get the impression that neutrality on this issue is one of GNOME's founding principles, it behooves us to do more to inform people what the founding principles really are. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
I believe Stormy was quite clear and on point: It sounded to me as though she were arguing against the sort of prior restraint that you seem to be attempting to impose here. I think GNOME activities should not grant legitimacy to non-free software. This is a minimal form of support for the cause of software users' freedom -- minimal in the sense that anything less would hardly be support. However, the implementational ideas you are attacking did not come from me. You're also stretching the term censorship and related terms to an area where it does not pertain. For an organization to stand by its values, and not say things which conflict with those values, is not censorship. My use of Final Cut is completely legitimate. I would not trade my freedom for convenience like that. However the issue here is not what you use, or what would I use; it is what GNOME should advocate. We're working for a world in which software users aren't asked to choose between freedom and convenience, and GNOME should support that goal, as well as being a collection of programs which help make it so. Thus, GNOME should not present a program as legitimate if it requires users to choose in that way. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
We _were_ attempting to finalize a Code of Conduct which could be provided to speakers, in the hope of avoiding future instances of the sort of harmless fun we experienced during Mr. Stallman's keynote at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit, as I recall. What happened there is that some people misunderstood a joke in my speech, and others mistakenly accused me of intentionally disparaging people. Rules of conduct can't prevent misunderstandings, but they can help us deal with them better. If those who accused me had followed the draft Code of Conduct (http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct), particularly this rule Disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour or personal attacks. Remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable is not a productive one. and this one If something seems outrageous, check that you did not misinterpret it. Ask for clarification, but do not assume the worst. they might have responded differently to the misunderstanding, and things would have been over very quickly. All the points in the draft Code of Conduct seem good to me. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: foundation-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 13
Em 12-12-2009 11:31, Philip Van Hoof escreveu: On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 09:51 +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: I have a personal blog and when I asked planet.openmoko.org to add my posts, I gave them the RSS feed corresponding to posts under the tag OpenMoko. Perhaps it would be a simpler suggestion to pass on the aggregated bloggers that after date X only posts with the tag GNOME will be aggregated? This is what Stormy replied in the thread: From: Stormy Peters stormy.pet...@gmail.com Date: 12/10/2009 03:46:37 PM (Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:46:37 -0700) Planet GNOME is about people and we display everyone's full blog feed as it represents them. ^^ ^ There are people that work on proprietary software as well as GNOME and that's who they are. I don't think we should reject people because they don't agree with us 100% of the time. [CUT about hunting] Now, if they aren't doing any GNOME work and all they talk about it non-free, non-GNOME software, that's different. Stormy I agree with Stormy here: People can choose to have a tag on english, which is what I did because some people complained about my Dutch posts and this was proposed by the planet maintainers as resolution. But for example Lionel Dricot, a French speaking Belgian, told us in this thread that he enjoys reading Reinhout's Dutch posts (Reinhout is from the Netherlands) to practice his Dutch knowledge. This is just to illustrate what going full monty on gnome tags will have as impact. It would change the entire philosophy of the planet. The same philosophy that made it a success would be changed into a cold one. I'm against the proposal because the planet is doing just fine. Why is that so hard for some people to accept? In fact, I must confess that phrase from Stormy escaped my quick skimming of the whole flame, I don't agree with that PoV as I'll explain below. I was just suggesting a simpler course of action which I voluntary opt to when I'm invited or when I ask for inclusion at some planet. Themed planets I'm in only get my related posts. This is because, IMHO, if you want to follow the person, you can always do so from their own RSS, but (again, IMHO), themed planets should have articles from many people, but mostly related to the theme of the planet. Otherwise, with the point of view Stormy (and others) has over the planet, eventually one participant's post, or even himself, will press someone else's buttons, and this kind of things come up again, and again and again :| In fact, many posts from many of the participants bore *me* to death and I miss older times. Of course I can skip them, but then one could wonder why is there a GNOME planet at all :) Rui ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
