Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On Wednesday 26 September 2012 16:02:31 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 2012-09-26 14:33, Marco van de Voort wrote: In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said: Why not do the best of both worlds. In whose opinion? I thought it would have been obvious. I'm not ready yet to declare FPC/Lazarus as an oldtimers only fad. I'm afraid I don't understand your reply. People who prefer NNTP over a nice and modern WEB-forum are dumb oldtimers. So I am a dumb oldtimer too. I hate WEB-forums and think NNTP is the most convenient and productive discussion format for opensource projects. Martin ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-27 08:22, Martin Schreiber wrote: I'm not ready yet to declare FPC/Lazarus as an oldtimers only fad. I'm afraid I don't understand your reply. People who prefer NNTP over a nice and modern WEB-forum are dumb oldtimers. Then that is me. :) Fine, but I did also mention a web forum front-end to the NNTP server. So users/developers have a choice of what they want to use. A traditional NNTP Client (desktop app) or the Web Interface (Forum interface) to the NNTP server. This is exactly what Embarcadero did too. They have loads of newsgroups, but they also knew some developers prefer web forums, so they bought such a solution and modified it to suite there needs. New postings are seen by everybody instantly - no matter if you use NNTP directly, or use the Web Interface. Now what of this did Marco not understand? Then again, I should be use to Macro's odd answers to anything I post. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Martin Schreiber wrote: I'm not ready yet to declare FPC/Lazarus as an oldtimers only fad. I'm afraid I don't understand your reply. People who prefer NNTP over a nice and modern WEB-forum are dumb oldtimers. So I am a dumb oldtimer too. I hate WEB-forums and think NNTP is the most convenient and productive discussion format for opensource projects. Noting that this discussion needs to move to fpc-other. The one advantage that web-based foramina have is that in principle at least decent message threading can be implemented. Ideally, however, any solution should be able to accept and serve messages in various forms, and I see very little wrong with a system which (a) tags messages with NNTP-like headers, (b) uses an SMTP mailing list for distribution and (c) has a central archive that people can refer to if they lose messages. In short, the existing mailing list setup is not badly broken, and probably is not where effort should be concentrated. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
In our previous episode, Martin Schreiber said: I'm not ready yet to declare FPC/Lazarus as an oldtimers only fad. I'm afraid I don't understand your reply. People who prefer NNTP over a nice and modern WEB-forum are dumb oldtimers. No. People that try to push such preferences into a central role in the modern world are somewhat outside the realities of current times. And then oldtimer is not that bad an designation. So having a preference is not the problem (and I prefer NNTP too), but pushing it when it is a lost cause is. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On Sep 26, 2012, at 8:24 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys gra...@geldenhuys.co.uk wrote: Why not do the best of both worlds. Setup a NNTP server, then use fpWeb (or even plain CGI will do) to create a NNTP Web Client (aka Web Forum). Now all based are covered - users can use the communication medium they prefer, and fpWeb (if used) gets another nice real world demo. It is great when you showcase your work. Another benefit is when you adopt industry standards like nnntp. Interoperability seems to have lost luster recently. The WebNews HTTP front-end I use for my NNTP server is a very simple (and rather small - 1063 line of perl including code comments) Perl script. It acts as an ordinary NNTP client (so the NNTP server doesn't know the difference), and the HTML in generates is rather plain too. I simply dressed-up the HTML some basic CSS, to make it that little bit prettier. I think it should at least be professional looking. Taking a minimalist view would only bring the same complaints. Hell, I don't even mind writing the CGI NNTP Client frontend, because I have long been wanting to replace my Perl implementation with an Object Pascal version. Again it would be best to get a team together and do something nice rather than simple. Andrew Brunner, Aurawin LLC http://aurawin.com/ A great place to store and share your pictures, videos, and more, featuring a rich cloud social computing platform. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-27 09:56, Marco van de Voort wrote: So having a preference is not the problem (and I prefer NNTP too), but pushing it when it is a lost cause is. So you give up that easy. Personally, I don't tend to be a lemming and always follow the flavour of the month. G. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Guys, I'm sorry if this has re-opened old memories of the NNTP wars and the Great Listserv Battle, and caused flashbacks and post-http-stress-disorder! :) That wasn't my intention, I swear! Of course, it would be naïve of me to think that any urge to fix and update (or change, as it's called :) things wouldn't cause some conflict Having said that, if I can inject my own experiences I remember long nights with my mates running uucp and 2400 baud modems and writing connect scripts and resetting ttys frantically trying to recycle serial ports And that was leading-edge technology, oh my! That was so much fun, and it was only a hobby, I had to go and do paid work the next day. The one thing I do know for sure is that technology has got to the point now where it isn't just one thing that will be what we (and by we I mean you guys, and eventually, hopefully, me as well) will use to do what we need to with fpc and lazarus. So I think there's a good chance that we'll use listserv technology to do what we need to communicate to people, and a choice of nntp and http clients for anyone who's more comfortable that way. We don't need to go completely one way OR the other, and most modern forum software acknowledges that. Bottom line, we call sendmail() to notify, isamdb() (or whatever) for storage, and probably http for ui and management. My hope is that we get to meet and maybe even exceed people's expectations for help with problems, looking after the data in the archives and making that available to anyone who needs it, regardless of the interface we provide. But, in reality, people these days find listserv difficult to understand, set up, and keep on top of. Especially when messages are more easily and safely stored where they'll do the most good - in a globally-accessible searchable relational database (which is still pretty old technology - maybe not smoking jacket-and-pipe old, but it's been around for a while). You can still download and store the data you need if you still want to do that. The same goes (I'm sorry to say) for nntp servers and clients. Just saying clients and servers takes me back to the good ol' days of users respectfully requesting bits of information from the Acolytes and Maintainers of the Archive There are better and far more easily and securely available protocols that no-one has to install clients for, or configure passwords and ports and ssl hashes, or try and come up with a hierarchical structure that makes sense to them, and only them The bottom line is, what we're used to (and I still have my CP/M and Borland news server lists updated every week, trust me!) isn't necessarily what new users are going to expect. They're not even going to ask for that information - they're going to expect it to be provided for them, in a format that is secure, infinitely searchable, fast, nice-looking (that always helps) and that they don't have to download, install, configure, test, and maintain. That's most definitely what we're used to, I agree, but it's not how things work these days, except for a valiant few. (That's us). One thing I've learned from these interesting discussions is that whatever form the site morphs into, it will need to be able to at least allow a couple of different ways of getting that information. If that means we have to build an nntp servlet interface for people most comfortable with nntp clients, let's at least try to include that as part of the service. I don't know of any modern server software that provides multiple protocol access to the same datastore, but you guys know more about that than I do! If it's possible, why not build it in? Then at least you get to compare access types and see what really works for you. I'm truly not just a forum-promoting hyper-unrealistic change monkey. I'm too old and way too tired for that these days, trust me! :) But the thing that's drawn me in to this whole situation, is that the way it works now *can* be improved (hopefully without degrading any part of the community interaction), and by improving it, we make it easier and funner for new users of fpc to come onboard and ask, contribute, whine, and discuss. I suspect that's a good thing, but it's not up to me, I'm just the spanner in the works! I sound like a real estate developer. Kill me now, please. -Pete ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 09/25/2012 09:14 PM, Jeff Duntemann wrote: I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here in the US, more and more ISPs are eliminating Usenet access completely. Same in Germany. Deutsche Telekom silently did that about a year ago. AFAIK, there is a number of rather cheap payed services for that purpose,. -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-25 20:14, Jeff Duntemann wrote: I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here in the US, more and more ISPs are eliminating Usenet access completely. Do you mean an NNTP server for Yes, Usenet is not the only NNTP servers newsgroups on the internet. For example, I host a couple of newsgroups on my own server for some open source projects. Embarcadero hosts lots and lots of newsgroups for Delphi and their other products (they did create a Web Forum front-end to those newsgroups too, but they are still NNTP newsgroups driving the discussions). Microsoft, until recently, also hosted lots of newsgroups for developers. So do many other companies and open source projects. The Free Pascal project already have their own server for hosting HTTP, Mantis Bug Tracker, SubVersion etc. so adding a NNTP server (sn, leaf, etc) to the mix should be easy. I could even host some groups for them. My offer stands for other open source projects too. They are welcome to contact me, if they are looking for a place to host support newsgroups for their projects. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Am 26.09.2012 14:36, schrieb Kostas Michalopoulos: Then is community - FreePascal's current forums are awful and because of that, dead. I'd suggest to archive them and install a modern board that follows all the conventions that people have learned from the hundreds of thousands of other forums out there. Mailing list is good too, but to be honest they're hard to search and depend too much on your mail client to be properly configured, etc. If possible the FreePascal forums should be merged with the Lazarus forums (but **NOT** in the current dreadful Lazarus site!) since, honestly, a lot of people look for FreePascal via Lazarus. While they're technically different projects, from an outsider's point of view this distinction isn't important, especially considering how many of Lazarus and FPC developers work on both projects. You are not the only one with the idea to give up on the Free Pascal forums and integrate them with the Lazarus forum. I already read that idea some time ago on the core list. Regarding mailing lists: If I know that certain content was sent since I'm registered I'll use my mailing client's search otherwise I do a searchterm site:freepascal.org in Google. ;) Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
In our previous episode, Sven Barth said: If possible the FreePascal forums should be merged with the Lazarus forums (but **NOT** in the current dreadful Lazarus site!) since, honestly, a lot of people look for FreePascal via Lazarus. While they're technically different projects, from an outsider's point of view this distinction isn't important, especially considering how many of Lazarus and FPC developers work on both projects. You are not the only one with the idea to give up on the Free Pascal forums and integrate them with the Lazarus forum. I already read that idea some time ago on the core list. Regarding mailing lists: If I know that certain content was sent since I'm registered I'll use my mailing client's search otherwise I do a searchterm site:freepascal.org in Google. ;) I asked Lazarus devels about that a fat year ago. (at the lazarus day), and IIRC Marc wanted to update the forum software (version) first. Unfortunately, I didn't reask this year. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-26 14:10, Marco van de Voort wrote: I asked Lazarus devels about that a fat year ago. (at the lazarus day), and IIRC Marc wanted to update the forum software (version) first. Why not do the best of both worlds. Setup a NNTP server, then use fpWeb (or even plain CGI will do) to create a NNTP Web Client (aka Web Forum). Now all based are covered - users can use the communication medium they prefer, and fpWeb (if used) gets another nice real world demo. The WebNews HTTP front-end I use for my NNTP server is a very simple (and rather small - 1063 line of perl including code comments) Perl script. It acts as an ordinary NNTP client (so the NNTP server doesn't know the difference), and the HTML in generates is rather plain too. I simply dressed-up the HTML some basic CSS, to make it that little bit prettier. Hell, I don't even mind writing the CGI NNTP Client frontend, because I have long been wanting to replace my Perl implementation with an Object Pascal version. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-26 14:33, Marco van de Voort wrote: In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said: Why not do the best of both worlds. In whose opinion? I thought it would have been obvious. I'm not ready yet to declare FPC/Lazarus as an oldtimers only fad. I'm afraid I don't understand your reply. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 26/09/12 10:58 PM, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: Regarding mailing lists: If I know that certain content was sent since I'm registered I'll use my mailing client's search otherwise I do a searchterm site:freepascal.org in Google. ;) Ah, yes, see that's exactly what I'm hoping to stop ever happening again! That's a wonderful tip! But it's nowhere on the website, the wiki, or anywhere else related to the project, at least as far as I can search at the moment! So part of phase one (that sounds so administrator-ish, doesn't it? Sorry...) will be to put that kind of information right there on the front page where new users can see it, smack between their eyes. And I'll bet my next week's grog ration that no new user would know that kind of search is a) possible, and b) required in order to find archived results. If I may be so bold let's start thinking about a solid attempt to get new users into the community and compiling projects and asking questions as quickly and easily as we can afford to, with all due diligence for security and integrity of the existing data. That means that, unless we can come up with a cross-platform, non-text-mode (I.e. GUI-based) access method, that people like, are used to, and is easy to use and maintain, we're just planning for a new front fence while the gate won't open! I realise now that many people here are very comfortable with nntp and mail servers, and that's perfectly understandable - after all, why fix it if it ain't broke? The catch is, in reality, the vast, overwhelming, majority of new users DON'T want to have to reconfigure their mail clients (who does?), or find a base-64 decoder, or use google to search for stuff that's under their feet, so to speak. I think that Greg must have had an horrific experience with a forum at some time, I hope it hasn't scarred you for life, mate! ;) The way I figure it, if you guys can even get a bit of a break, an extra hour a week that you don't have to spend sorting out snmp tags or tracing router logs, then that's a good thing for you AND the fpc community. (hhh...I sound like a real estate agent - somebody shoot me before I say going forward :) Kostas and Doug, I agree that even a few little things (like the, er, distracting running pussycat thing) can make a huge difference. And the site can be easily fixed up without turning it into the Lazarus site (which is a bit cluttered, I agree, but it's not the VERY worst PHPbb site I've come across, and clueless users like me have no problems getting on board!). I personally love the idea of the latest FPC build being freely available, along with links to the most important documentation, with wiki links below that. And a link to the Lazarus site and/or binary. A time-and-motion guy a few years ago (when I worked in HP) told us that for every extra click our customers had to do to get what they wanted on a website, we lost half of those customers. Four clicks is three clicks too many! I don't know if that statistic is true or not, but I'd like the opportunity to try. (We do have a download counter, don't we? So we can actually measure simple things like that?) So, let's ask the question : given infinite resources, and infinite funds, and infinite time, what do we need to have on that all-important front page? I'm not talking about forums or that heavy stuff just yet - that's a much tougher job, and can be referenced from the front page, as can the message list. What would _you_ expect to see on the fpc site the very first time you saw it? What do _you_ use the most from the front page as it is now? What would _you_ want to be able to do in one click (or less)? ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Cephas Atheos wrote: A time-and-motion guy a few years ago (when I worked in HP) told us that for every extra click our customers had to do to get what they wanted on a website, we lost half of those customers. Four clicks is three clicks too many! Out of curiosity, was this before or after real HP got spun off as Agilent, and what part of the company were you in? (I'm just interested to know if your background is computers, chromatography, or electron tubes, if you get my drift :-) -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Am 26.09.2012 16:42, schrieb Vincent Snijders: 2012/9/26 Cephas Atheos cephasath...@gmail.com: What would _you_ want to be able to do in one click (or less)? Go to http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/ This (although I'm mostly using URL completion for it...) and the following: * http://wiki.freepascal.org/ * http://www.freepascal.org/docs.var * ftp://ftp.freepascal.org/pub/fpc/snapshot/trunk/ * http://bugs.freepascal.org The first two are already available as a single click and for the last one I'm also using URL completion, but just to stress what _I_ need :) Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
G'day Mark! On 27/09/12 12:40 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd markmll.fpc-de...@telemetry.co.uk wrote: Out of curiosity, was this before or after real HP got spun off as Agilent, and what part of the company were you in? (I'm just interested to know if your background is computers, chromatography, or electron tubes, if you get my drift :-) Actually, a bit of all three. Except the chromatography bit. :) I got let in (I was self-taught) with instrument repairs, spent 5 years there (CROs, power supplies, HPIB sig gens and multimeters), then moved across to computers when the HP ES (286 PC) was released and sort of stuck there. I did some back-and-forth when two of the older instrument guys died (no-one wanted to fix the caesium clocks or laser DMIs, so I volunteered until they hired people who knew what they were doing), but that was as close as I got to a vacuum tube while being paid. Then I moved into commercial enterprise (network server) troubleshooting and escalations, and picked up mobile device support as well (HP95 200LX, Omnibook 300s, Jornadas, etc). I didn't last long there though - I got fully reamed by the division manager when I reverse-engineered a docking station because I thought the division was taking too long. Sigh. I've never forgotten THAT call! I wasn't lucky enough to be part of the real fun Bill and Dave years, although I had a great mentor who instilled in me a deep appreciation for beautifully crafted analogue instruments. But I was all post-valve days, unfortunately. And while I subscribed for a long time to IEEE Spectrum, I didn't understand all of it, and it eventually got way too expensive to be a hobby! Eventually (2006) I was redundified, just post-Agilent, which suited me fine. My only consolation is that I know what a chromatograph is and does, and I can fix some of the older ones, but I'm not a real engineer by any stretch of the imagination! It was fun rubbing shoulders with real engineers, though. I always had to play above my usual game! Whoops, there I go again. Short messages, Peter, short messages! :) ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Am 26.09.2012 16:26, schrieb Cephas Atheos: Kostas and Doug, I agree that even a few little things (like the, er, distracting running pussycat thing) can make a huge difference. It's a Cheetah and the official FPC mascot. So don't say anything wrong about it ;P Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
It should run only as an easter egg when you move the mouse over it, not all the time :-P On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 26.09.2012 16:26, schrieb Cephas Atheos: Kostas and Doug, I agree that even a few little things (like the, er, distracting running pussycat thing) can make a huge difference. It's a Cheetah and the official FPC mascot. So don't say anything wrong about it ;P Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-26 16:18, Kostas Michalopoulos wrote: It should run only as an easter egg when you move the mouse over it, not all the time :-P I feel like I went back in time to the early 90's every time I see that. Those animations were the in thing then. :) Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 27/09/12 12:42 AM, Vincent Snijders vincent.snijd...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/9/26 Cephas Atheos cephasath...@gmail.com: What would _you_ want to be able to do in one click (or less)? Go to http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/ ! That scared the HELL out of me! :D Oh my goodness, that's a huge scary webpage. Nobody who's interested in just downloading a working IDE and compiler EVER needs to see the server's underpants like that! Seriously, that's great for SourceForge geeks (I'm one, I admit it!), but that page doesn't say Click here to download Free Pascal 2.6.0, it says you obviously know what FTP is, and trunks aren't just for elephants' holidays. If I'd just got to the site from clicking another link somewhere that said Sick of Embarcadero? Click here for a totally FREE, modern, Pascal compiler and IDE, only better than that! and I saw that, I'd click Back faster than a cut snake. That text-only bunch of arcane rows of cells is what we DON'T want new users to even know exists - until they're ready for it. What 95% of new users want to do is click download, click Install, then print out a cheat sheet that shows them which menu the examples are in, then a link to somewhere non-intimidating, requiring no additional software to build or buy, so they can ask questions like they do in their other music websites. But thank you for taking the time to show the url, I had no idea that was even available. I learn something new every day! Cheers! ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 27/09/12 1:11 AM, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: This (although I'm mostly using URL completion for it...) and the following: * http://wiki.freepascal.org/ * http://www.freepascal.org/docs.var * ftp://ftp.freepascal.org/pub/fpc/snapshot/trunk/ * http://bugs.freepascal.org Oh, Sven, Sven, Sven I absolutely agree that those are really useful pages. But not one of them says Download Here (flashing the Here, of course! :)) So, as a fairly new user, I see the first page is a load of writing (bt! No boobs or russian wife ads :(), the second has every document except how to troubleshoot an installation problem, the third just puts up a window demanding a username and password (why? How do I register? What do I get when I pass the gatekeeper's portal of doom?), and the fourth breaks in every chrome browser I have access to and shows a completely blank page. That's none for four! Please don't get me wrong, these are terrific pages to have links to on the front page, but they all need some explanation (well, maybe not the docs page). Footnotes, things like that. They can't be single-word links. They're all fantastic for knowledgeable developers, or wannabe compiler compilers (like me, I've seen all those pages in the past 4 days at some time or another), but not for new users who kinda know what a compiler is, and who've been playing with Turbo Delphi or a university installation of D2011 or similar, or -ahem- RadStudio from the Pirate Bay... Again, think new, novice user. They're probably smart enough to know how to configure their browser to download to a known location on their system (that goes without saying for linux users, but not necessarily windows or Mac users), and they should know the difference between a compiler and an ide. But not everyone is going to know or care about daily builds, patches, trunks, and fixes. They're going to say Hey, you promised me a programming language. What's FTP got to do with it? So far, the fpc site seems to be designed mainly to capture Eclipse users who are tired of the bloated IDE, tired of struggling with java classes, and remember pascal from uni days. And that's great, that's what you want, definitely - but the kids coming out of TAFE and university courses (at least here, in Australia) either love or hate C, and if they hate it, they'll be looking for an alternative. But they won't necessarily know what a trunk is, or even what svn is, full stop. They may be your biggest growth segment for the next few years (if not more), so you have to capture their attention, make it super easy to get the basics down on their computer, and super easy to install. So far, so good, that's what FPC and Lazarus does best, but it's *still* terribly confusing for experienced programmers to know what they have to download, then what order to install, then how to fix common problems, and so on. Either that needs to be taken care of by a universal installer (ha!), or we need to document, explain, and assist on the one page. No trunks, no wiki, no passwords, just click here, here, and here. Install this, then this, then this. Here's the examples. Here's the documentation. Here's the wiki. Don't like fpc? Fix it - here's howblah blah blah. I hope this makes sense. And I do hope everyone's taking my attitude in the spirit it's intended, I'm not trying to be a bastard, really. I know you guys can pull all this together, you really don't need me to tell you this. But I'm gonna keep having fun until I get access to the site, or you tar and feather me, and then kick me off the list! (Hint : try the first option, then you can do the second if you're not happy). :D - Pete ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
2012/9/26 Cephas Atheos cephasath...@gmail.com: On 27/09/12 12:42 AM, Vincent Snijders vincent.snijd...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/9/26 Cephas Atheos cephasath...@gmail.com: What would _you_ want to be able to do in one click (or less)? Go to http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/ ! That scared the HELL out of me! :D Oh my goodness, that's a huge scary webpage. Nobody who's interested in just downloading a working IDE and compiler EVER needs to see the server's underpants like that! That is what happens if you ask on the developers list, what subscribers want, If you target people who are interested in just downloading, this is the wrong place to ask, Vincent ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 27 Sep 12, at 1:56, Cephas Atheos wrote: . . I hope this makes sense. And I do hope everyone's taking my attitude in the spirit it's intended, I'm not trying to be a bastard, really. I know you guys can pull all this together, you really don't need me to tell you this. But I'm gonna keep having fun until I get access to the site, or you tar and feather me, and then kick me off the list! (Hint : try the first option, then you can do the second if you're not happy). :D It makes sense, but I believe that it makes more sense discussing this topic on fpc-other than on the developers list. I suggest moving the discussion there (and I will respond there right after clicking the send button for this message ;-) ). Tomas ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Thanks guys, I'll move the discussion to the other list. I was going to write more, but I'll leave it for the time being. Thanks for your valuable help and perspectives. Pete ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Am 25.09.2012 00:15, schrieb Jonas Maebe: Again, that's one proper list address and two invalid ones. Additionally, fpc-announce is a list on which pretty much only announces about new FPC releases are distributed. Finally, you are not subscribed to any FPC list using the address uncleb...@gmail.com, so I'm not sure whether you'll actually see any replies sent to the list (I know that because I'm the mailing list administrator and hence I can explicitly CC you, but other people don't know that and will probably just reply to the list). Which I did for the first mail to fpc-other... Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Op Tue, 25 Sep 2012, schreef Cephas Atheos: [My apologies for the previous message attempt - obviously the list server doesn't handle html at all, and I could have checked for that first. Sorry for the block of base64!] G'day everyone, As you may be aware, there are a number of significant problems with the FPC community site. For new users, it's a bit of a minefield, and isn't a really good introduction to the wonderful FPC community. I'd like to offer my support and assistance in cleaning up the pages, fixing links and server errors, and generally helping to bring the site (possibly kicking and screaming! :) up to scratch. Hi! I'm fully aware of limitations, and happy to take take help, but please understand I am skeptical to plans like let's install PhpBB and those are not fundamental plans. The FPC community predates most forums on the internet and if I'm right the first messages date from 1999. It maintains full backward compatibility (even old URL's of the previous generation software) still work, scales well and is resonably hacker proof. So work has to be either on improving the current system, or a proper thought out plan to replace it with another well working system that can last again for well over a decade. Daniël___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 25/09/12 8:15 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: The problem is that both in your previous and in your current message, you are sending the mail to one correct list address and to two invalid ones. Thanks for clarifying that, Jonas. That would explain why I got 2 administrative replies telling me about my unusual content and one normal receipt! Although I *seem* to have subscribed to the 'correct' lists (fpc-other, fpc-devel, and fpc-announce) via the website, for some weird reason my mailer only stored the *-request list addresses instead of the non-request ones. I've cleared those out manually, so hopefully that's in the past now. I'm sorry to have added to your workload, I was trying to do exactly the opposite! I freely admit, I haven't used a mailing list for 15 years or more. It's all coming back to me now Oh, the horror :) I'm writing a list of the links and functions that are out of order, so even if my help is superfluous, someone else might be able to use the information. Mostly, I've been trying to use the site to actually find information about various aspects of FPC, so they're probably biased towards what a new user would be seeing. If my access request is approved, I can probably put together a more comprehensive list. Fingers crossed. On a related note The website looks really quiet, with maybe 3 or 4 requests per month. Is there a link between the site and the formal mailing lists? Or does the website work off its own set of lists? I noticed while looking through these list archives that very few of the questions raised in the website queues were listed in these archives, and vice-versa. This is just for my own understanding, I'm having quite a few problems with fpc and lazarus, and I want to make sure my questions are getting to the right audience. Mario seems to be handling most of the responses in the website archives, from the little I've been able to see. He's certainly been helping me as much as he can, but there are a few things he's suggested I pass by you guys first. I'll get those posted as soon as I can. Thanks, Pete ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
I'm seeing some traffic on fpc-devel and the other legitimate lists, and I did get a success message when I reposted my original message, so some things are getting through. I think you're right though, I need to change my response address. I forgot the banal horrors of mailing lists and reply-to vs from addresses and all that stuff Looks like I have some work to do just to get my hand up! So, before I spam out the lists, has anyone seen my message? I got a successful post message from the listbot, but no-one's replied to the content as yet I don't know whether that's because no-one wants to, or because no-one else has seen it. Thanks. On 25/09/12 5:21 PM, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 25.09.2012 00:15, schrieb Jonas Maebe: Again, that's one proper list address and two invalid ones. Additionally, fpc-announce is a list on which pretty much only announces about new FPC releases are distributed. Finally, you are not subscribed to any FPC list using the address uncleb...@gmail.com, so I'm not sure whether you'll actually see any replies sent to the list (I know that because I'm the mailing list administrator and hence I can explicitly CC you, but other people don't know that and will probably just reply to the list). Which I did for the first mail to fpc-other... Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
Am 25.09.2012 02:39, schrieb Cephas Atheos: On a related noteŠ The website looks really quiet, with maybe 3 or 4 requests per month. Is there a link between the site and the formal mailing lists? Or does the website work off its own set of lists? I noticed while looking through these list archives that very few of the questions raised in the website queues were listed in these archives, and vice-versa. This is just for my own understanding, I'm having quite a few problems with fpc and lazarus, and I want to make sure my questions are getting to the right audience. The most activity is definitely on the mailing lists (fpc-pascal and fpc-devel). All core developers are registered there and normaly either we or other developers will answer questions quite fast (depending on the content and the time of day of course ;) ). Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
G'day Daniël, On 25/09/12 5:35 PM, Daniël Mantione daniel.manti...@freepascal.org wrote: Hi! I'm fully aware of limitations, and happy to take take help, but please understand I am skeptical to plans like let's install PhpBB and those are not fundamental plans. I agree, change for changes' sake is just frustrating to people and time-consuming. Whatever happens has to minimally impact the core of the fpc community, that's critically important. That's one reason why I've offered to help out in that area. The FPC community predates most forums on the internet and if I'm right the first messages date from 1999. It maintains full backward compatibility (even old URL's of the previous generation software) still work, scales well and is resonably hacker proof. Security is paramount, of course. However, while hackers are prevented from easily attacking the infrastructure you have, so are new users prevented from easily finding the right resources (at the moment, anyway). That's where I hope some changes will help the current admins AND the user base, and hopefully keep as much of this critical archive intact as possible. Preferably 100%, although that's unlikely no matter what happens. But I'm prepared to put the work in to make sure everything possible is kept intact and accessible. (I used to do this for a living, and I do understand the importance of protecting and maintaining historical data, believe me). So work has to be either on improving the current system, or a proper thought out plan to replace it with another well working system that can last again for well over a decade. That's exactly what I'm after! There needs to be a controlled, careful migration to any new process or software, no matter what that is. And rather than coming in and stomping around like a dictator, I would much rather find out what ideas other people have to do the same thing. Eventually, there should be an agreed process, step 1, step 2 Step 500 (or however much it takes, hopefully not 500!), and most, if not all, of the most important members here are happy and comfortable with the process. I mentioned PHPBB because it's incredibly robust, widely used, has good security, is minimally invasive to manage, can be scaled reasonably well, people are familiar with it, and it works. But I'm sure there may be other, better options I'm completely unaware of! What I want to avoid *at all costs* is any pretty, shiny technology that seems fantastic but is largely untested. There is a lot under the hood that needs to be discussed too - archive formats, what kind of database will be used, how will that affect hosting, access, and costs, and so on. I would rather cover the a..z and take a few weeks longer to estimate the traps and so on, than jump in with a preconfigured gee-whiz solution that chokes in 5 years' time. I'm even thinking about what human resources on the lists might want to get involved - make it a community effort, with db backend and frontend specialists, scripting gurus, UI designers, anyone with true passion for fpc and a wish to contribute their specialty. I can do all of those things, but none of them brilliantly, so it makes sense to find out who would like to be part of a migration, and who can help the most. I hope this helps to show that I'm not trying to be a cowboy riding into FPC-town telling everyone what has to happen I'm not that kind of person, and it wouldn't be a good thing anyway, except get people nervous and doubtful. But then it's not easy coming in to such an old community and proving I can do what I say I can - that's going to be fun. I'm thinking eventually of just setting up a dummy kind of site, where some data could be placed and some users can have a look to see what sort of things work, whether it gives people any better ideas, etc. I'll be happy to host as much as I can (I'm semi-retired, and my business site uses less than 5% of the hosting resources available to me, so that's one option). But by far the most critical thing right now is fixing up the dead wood on the fpc main page, contacting external site admins to see if stuff's been saved or redirected, clean up some of the lists, fix up the global search engine (really important, and I might be able to do that fairly gently), that kind of thing. As long as people who go to that page can see that most everything works, that's a great step forward, I'm sure you'll agree! OK enough for now. I really appreciate your comments and concerns, and I really don't want to stand on anyone's toes it's too important to the community, I know. And I appreciate anything and everything you can do to help guide me! Thanks again, and if anyone else has comments or suggestions, I'd be happy to hear. I think there's a great benefit to everyone if it's done right. Cheers, Pete ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 2012-09-25 09:01, Cephas Atheos wrote: I mentioned PHPBB because it's incredibly robust, widely used, has good security, is minimally invasive to manage, can be scaled reasonably well, people are familiar with it, and it works. My personal opinion is that I hate web forums! They are hard to navigate, and hard to read topics, and hard to see who replied to what. In the tiOPF project we switched years ago to the rock solid NNTP (news) server solution. I wrote a small app to import existing mailing list discussins so no discussion history is lost. Anybody can choose their preferred news client, new joiners can easily see, read and search past threads. For the tiOPF project I also setup a WebNews HTTP interface to the NNTP server, so for those that prefer a web browser to read message, that could be done too. NNTP is still the most used public discussion medium on the internet, and for good reason - it works very well. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 09/25/2012 10:29 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: NNTP is still the most used public discussion medium on the internet, and for good reason - it works very well. +1 -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
BTW, devoted people for maintaining the WWW-site is a great matter :) ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here in the US, more and more ISPs are eliminating Usenet access completely. Do you mean an NNTP server for FPC that people could access directly using a client like Agent or Pan? (In other words, without being part of the newsfeed.) I've used Usenet off and on since the bang-path era and I like it too. I don't know the protocol well, however, and don't know its limitations. --73-- --Jeff Duntemann Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA On 9/25/2012 2:29 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 2012-09-25 09:01, Cephas Atheos wrote: I mentioned PHPBB because it's incredibly robust, widely used, has good security, is minimally invasive to manage, can be scaled reasonably well, people are familiar with it, and it works. My personal opinion is that I hate web forums! They are hard to navigate, and hard to read topics, and hard to see who replied to what. In the tiOPF project we switched years ago to the rock solid NNTP (news) server solution. I wrote a small app to import existing mailing list discussins so no discussion history is lost. Anybody can choose their preferred news client, new joiners can easily see, read and search past threads. For the tiOPF project I also setup a WebNews HTTP interface to the NNTP server, so for those that prefer a web browser to read message, that could be done too. NNTP is still the most used public discussion medium on the internet, and for good reason - it works very well. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Offer to repair and maintain the FPC community website (repeat msg, no HTML)
On 24 Sep 2012, at 16:16, Cephas Atheos wrote: [My apologies for the previous message attempt - obviously the list server doesn't handle html at all, and I could have checked for that first. Sorry for the block of base64!] The problem is that both in your previous and in your current message, you are sending the mail to one correct list address and to two invalid ones. The original mail was sent to: fpc-ot...@lists.freepascal.org, fpc-devel-reque...@lists.freepascal.org, fpc-announce-reque...@lists.freepascal.org The first address is correct, but the two others have -request appended to them. The -request addresses are only usable for performing administrative actions such as (un)subscribing. Similarly, this message was sent to: fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org, fpc-announce-requ...@lists.freepascal.org, fpc-other-requ...@lists.freepascal.org Again, that's one proper list address and two invalid ones. Additionally, fpc-announce is a list on which pretty much only announces about new FPC releases are distributed. Finally, you are not subscribed to any FPC list using the address uncleb...@gmail.com, so I'm not sure whether you'll actually see any replies sent to the list (I know that because I'm the mailing list administrator and hence I can explicitly CC you, but other people don't know that and will probably just reply to the list). Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
