Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Vincent Snijders

Jürgen Hestermann schreef:
Well, they cannot put the blaim on the Lazarus converter, but only on 
their own ignorance with respect to porting to Lazarus. 


Why ignorance? I remember someone asking here how to learn programming 
with FPC/Lazarus and someone else answered that each Delphi learning 
book would do. How does that fit together when such huge differences 
between Lazarus and Delphi exist?


I am glad I did not give that advice.



I have a feeling that the conversion tool is bad publicity for Lazarus 
that it gives people a false feeling of easy conversion. Lazarus 
should avoid giving this impression.


A much better way would be to improve the converter in that it gives 
hints about the different coding of strings. This would be enough.




Yes, that would be great. Can we expect some improvements (patches) from 
you soon. Until now, very few people have contributed to it. Improving 
it would be nice, but people who have Delphi code rather stay with 
Delphi, and that might not be unwise.



The main problem realy is, that (some!) stings are completely omitted 
when they are Ansi where UTF-8 is needed. 

Yes, garbage in garbage out.


Why "garbage"? A correct and running Delphi program was converted to 
Lazarus with the converter, how can it be garbage?


You feed ansi encoded strings where UTF-8 is needed. That is garbage. 
Don't trust the converter too much.


Vincent
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Mattias Gaertner
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:26:27 +0100
Jürgen Hestermann  wrote:

> > And your tone isn't very helpful. I responded only in a intention to
> > help, and yet the response doesn't seam to have been apreciated.
> 
> Forgive me if I am sounding a bit rude. Of course that's not meant 
> against any person on the list. Every help is realy appreciated. I
> only was already frustrated about Delphi (7) which has lots of bugs
> and a poor help too. Then I read many good things about FPC/Lazarus
> so I was expecting it to be at least better than Delphi but found
> that it's even worse. I am not sure anymore whether I should migrate
> to FPC/Lazarus. Transfering my Delphi code may be more work than I
> thought and I am not sure whether it's worth it if I am having even
> more problems afterwards.

About unicode:
The LCL uses one unicode format: UTF8.
The problem is that many other libraries (e.g. winapi) use other string
formats.
Delphi Tiburon tried to solve this problem with compiler magic by
implicit conversions, which helps to quickly port old Delphi code,
but might kill your speed or have some unexpected and hidden side
effects.
The FPC team is working on something similar, although because of the
many platforms, the problem is a magnitude more difficult. There
were very long mail threads about this topic.

About the converter:
The converter is a simple tool that already saves a lot of work, but
I agree with Vincent that it is easily mistaken as a complete tool
like converting a word document to openoffice.
Basically it handles the filenames, uses sections and compiler options.
And it does not yet do any syntax/library conversion.
The tool should warn newbies and open the wiki pages.
So there is a lot of room for improvements.


Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann
Well, they cannot put the blaim on the Lazarus converter, but only on 
their own ignorance with respect to porting to Lazarus. 


Why ignorance? I remember someone asking here how to learn programming 
with FPC/Lazarus and someone else answered that each Delphi learning 
book would do. How does that fit together when such huge differences 
between Lazarus and Delphi exist?


I have a feeling 
that the conversion tool is bad publicity for Lazarus that it gives 
people a false feeling of easy conversion. Lazarus should avoid giving 
this impression.


A much better way would be to improve the converter in that it gives 
hints about the different coding of strings. This would be enough.


The main problem realy is, that (some!) stings are completely omitted 
when they are Ansi where UTF-8 is needed. 

Yes, garbage in garbage out.


Why "garbage"? A correct and running Delphi program was converted to 
Lazarus with the converter, how can it be garbage?


Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] FreePascal/Lazarus plug-in's for Delphi.

2008-12-21 Thread Skybuck Flying



I would like to bring to your attention this project:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=365095

DWPL... it was quite impressive... it had a text gui which was compatible
with Delphi... not sure if it's still compatible with Delphi 2007...
probably not... maybe it has the same issue's as Lazarus now has... maybe
Lazarus was even based on it... (?)



Yes, this is really what we need. Ditch DOS filenames and switch to a
DOS based text GUI.


I think you missed the point here.

The point was:

DWPL simply replaced some unit aliases, and implemented a compatible 
text-based VCL (probably using CLX).


This ment the application could be compiled for windows with a graphical 
gui.
This ment the application could be compiled for dos with a text gui which 
looked graphical.


Delphi uses:

WinTypes=Windows;WinProcs=Windows;DbiTypes=BDE;DbiProcs=BDE;DbiErrs=BDE;

DWPL would change it to:

messages=sysutils;controls=qcontrols;dialogs=qdialogs;extctrls=qextctrls;forms=qforms;graphics=qgraphics;menus=qmenus;stdctrls=qstdctrls;WinTypes=Windows;WinProcs=Windows;DbiTypes=BDE;DbiProcs=BDE;DbiErrs=BDE;

Then use tool to convert windows exe to wdosx32 exe.

By using only the supported gui components at least the gui code would 
simply compile without any changes necessary.


Probably same for RTL... for threading I am not sure ;) it was being 
implemented at the time.


Something like that for Lazarus would be nice ! :)

Bye,
 Skybuck. 


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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Jürgen Hestermann
 wrote:
> MessageBox(0,'Programmfehler!','SPEED TEST',MB_ICONEXCLAMATION or
> MB_TopMost or MB_SetForeGround);

You are using a Windows API routine, from the Windows unit. I know
that because I know the routines, but it is easy to find out. Just
right click "MessageBox" and select "Find Declaration"

The "Find in Files" dialog is also useful.

-- 
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Vincent Snijders

Jürgen Hestermann schreef:
Maybe we should consider removing the convert from the IDE, if it 
misleads more than helps.
I don't think so, it's better than nothing. The problem is, that 
there are more pitfalls than the conversion routine handles (can 
handle?).
Yes, and until that is fixed, it may be better to remove it, so we 
don't get such long threads and to spare you debug time.


But how would that avoid the confusion? Just the opposite. It would add 
even more because the conversion avoids at least some of the problems.




Well, they cannot put the blaim on the Lazarus converter, but only on 
their own ignorance with respect to porting to Lazarus. I have a feeling 
that the conversion tool is bad publicity for Lazarus that it gives 
people a false feeling of easy conversion. Lazarus should avoid giving 
this impression.


The main problem realy is, that (some!) stings are completely omitted 
when they are Ansi where UTF-8 is needed. 


Yes, garbage in garbage out.

If I do it the other way round
(convert my code to UTF-8 and use these strings for RTL routines) I 
immediately see that something is wrong with the encoding ("funny" 
characters are displayed). But when nothing is displayed I have no idea 
why that happens.



I think it should be simple: LCL UTF8, RTL Ansi.
Where is this messagebox call defined?


That's the correct question. How do I know which routine is from where? 
And why am I forced to think about such things when programming? In 
Delphi I am not.


Because in Delphi RTL and VCL are unified. But Lazarus programming may 
be too complicated ...


Do Find Declaration and see what the source directory is. Or press F1 a
see what the package is (top left, the string after the #).

Vincent
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann



If you are using MessageBox from the LCL, then it uses UTF-8.
Maybe your are using a Windows API.


For example, I am just writing

MessageBox(0,'Programmfehler!','SPEED TEST',MB_ICONEXCLAMATION or 
   MB_TopMost or MB_SetForeGround);


the interface part has the following "uses" entries

  LCLIntf, Messages, SysUtils, Classes, Graphics, Controls, Forms,
  Dialogs, StdCtrls, LResources;


and the implementation part uses

Windows,FileCtrl,DateUtils,clipbrd,interfaces;

So what am I using and how do I know what I should use?

Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann
Maybe we should consider removing the convert from the IDE, if it 
misleads more than helps.
I don't think so, it's better than nothing. The problem is, that there 
are more pitfalls than the conversion routine handles (can handle?).
Yes, and until that is fixed, it may be better to remove it, so we don't 
get such long threads and to spare you debug time.


But how would that avoid the confusion? Just the opposite. It would add 
even more because the conversion avoids at least some of the problems.


The main problem realy is, that (some!) stings are completely omitted 
when they are Ansi where UTF-8 is needed. If I do it the other way round 
(convert my code to UTF-8 and use these strings for RTL routines) I 
immediately see that something is wrong with the encoding ("funny" 
characters are displayed). But when nothing is displayed I have no idea 
why that happens.



I think it should be simple: LCL UTF8, RTL Ansi.
Where is this messagebox call defined?


That's the correct question. How do I know which routine is from where? 
And why am I forced to think about such things when programming? In 
Delphi I am not.


Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Problems with FP-IDE with xterm

2008-12-21 Thread Marco van de Voort
In our previous episode, Andrea said:

> I can see that all non standard ASCII character are missing (e.g. stressed
> vowel). Other times the windows appear diagonal (like the length of the
> line was wrong).

Sounds like ascii output is interpreted as something else (UTF perhaps?)

> Should I use some flags, a different character set or a different X
> terminal?

> I've tried fp -F and it does not change much.
> I've read the man page, but I did not understand much.

There is some doc here:

http://wiki.freepascal.org/Terminal_%26_Fonts

However since that consoles that have UTF-8 as native encoding have popped
up that might cause problems (or not, I only guessing here)
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
> I just converted to UTF-8 but now got problems with constant strings in
> MessageBox calls which require Ansi instead of UTF-8.

If you are using MessageBox from the LCL, then it uses UTF-8.

Maybe your are using a Windows API.

-- 
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Vincent Snijders

Jürgen Hestermann schreef:
I used the Delphi-to-Lazarus convertion for my (Delphi) program. Why 
isn't it also converting to UTF-8 if that's necessary?
Maybe we should consider removing the convert from the IDE, if it 
misleads more than helps.


I don't think so, it's better than nothing. The problem is, that there 
are more pitfalls than the conversion routine handles (can handle?).




Yes, and until that is fixed, it may be better to remove it, so we don't 
get such long threads and to spare you debug time.


I just converted to UTF-8 but now got problems with constant strings in 
MessageBox calls which require Ansi instead of UTF-8. It's quite awkward 
if different codings are used within one source code file. I would have 
expected that one single encoding (UTF-8?) is used throughout all source 
code and all routines that need a different encoding do the conversion 
themselve. Now each programmer has to learn for each and every routine 
what encoding is used (and that's not even documented within the help 
for these routines).


I think it should be simple: LCL UTF8, RTL Ansi.

Where is this messagebox call defined?

Vicnet
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann
I used the Delphi-to-Lazarus convertion for my (Delphi) program. Why 
isn't it also converting to UTF-8 if that's necessary?
Maybe we should consider removing the convert from the IDE, if it 
misleads more than helps.


I don't think so, it's better than nothing. The problem is, that there 
are more pitfalls than the conversion routine handles (can handle?).


I just converted to UTF-8 but now got problems with constant strings in 
MessageBox calls which require Ansi instead of UTF-8. It's quite awkward 
if different codings are used within one source code file. I would have 
expected that one single encoding (UTF-8?) is used throughout all source 
code and all routines that need a different encoding do the conversion 
themselve. Now each programmer has to learn for each and every routine 
what encoding is used (and that's not even documented within the help 
for these routines).


Why confront the programmer with more complexity than needed? Especially 
those who start learning programming from scratch realy have a hard time 
if such (IMO unnecessary) things are not avoided.


Jürgen Hestermann.



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[fpc-pascal] Debugger support for FP (issues with libgdb.a)

2008-12-21 Thread Andrea
Hi,

I've tried to use the debugger in FP 2.2.2 and I got this error

"No debugger support available"

The I read online and found that I need to get libgdb.a from a build of gdb and 
copy it in fpc.
I've done that and copied to

/fpcsrc/libgdb/linux/libgdb.a

Now I get this linker error (+ many more similar)

make[3]: Entering directory 
`/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/ide'

/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/compiler/ppc386 -di386
-Fl/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/libgdb/linux -Ur -Xs -O2 
-n -Sg
-Fu/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/rtl/units/i386-linux
-Fu/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/packages/fv/units/i386-linux
-Fu/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/packages/gdbint/units/i386-linux
-Fu/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/packages/regexpr/units/i386-linux
 -FE.
-FUunits/i386-linux -Fl/usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/4.3.0 -Flinclude 
-Flld.so.conf.d/*.conf
-k"--build-id -z noexecstack" -gl -dRELEASE fp.pas

/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/libgdb/linux/libgdb.a(exec.o):
 In function
`generic_skip_trampoline_code':
/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/gdb-6.8/build-i386-redhat-linux-gnu/gdb/../../gdb/arch-utils.c:58:
multiple definition of `generic_skip_trampoline_code'

/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/fpcbuild-2.2.2/fpcsrc/libgdb/linux/libgdb.a(arch-utils.o):/home/andrea/rpmbuild/BUILD/gdb-6.8/build-i386-redhat-linux-gnu/gdb/../../gdb/arch-utils.c:58:
first defined here

Have I done it correctly?
I was wondering if there is a documentation about that.

Andrea
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann

And your tone isn't very helpful. I responded only in a intention to
help, and yet the response doesn't seam to have been apreciated.


Forgive me if I am sounding a bit rude. Of course that's not meant 
against any person on the list. Every help is realy appreciated. I only 
was already frustrated about Delphi (7) which has lots of bugs and a 
poor help too. Then I read many good things about FPC/Lazarus so I was 
expecting it to be at least better than Delphi but found that it's even 
worse. I am not sure anymore whether I should migrate to FPC/Lazarus. 
Transfering my Delphi code may be more work than I thought and I am not 
sure whether it's worth it if I am having even more problems afterwards.


Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
> In a documentation I would expect to find such important information (at
> least as a link). Otherwise I don't need it at all and can find out how it
> works myself by trial and error.

The wiki is the most important part of the documentation. The other
part being the reference of classes/units/etc

If you coming from Delphi you should have read:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_For_Delphi_Users

And also anything else necessary in:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Documentation

If you think this document needs improvements, then you can edit it.

And your tone isn't very helpful. I responded only in a intention to
help, and yet the response doesn't seam to have been apreciated.

-- 
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Vincent Snijders

Jürgen Hestermann schreef:

And how do I change my current code to UTF-8?

In the menu Tools --> Convert encoding of file/project


I used the Delphi-to-Lazarus convertion for my (Delphi) program. Why 
isn't it also converting to UTF-8 if that's necessary?




Maybe we should consider removing the convert from the IDE, if it 
misleads more than helps.


Vincent
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann

And how do I change my current code to UTF-8?

In the menu Tools --> Convert encoding of file/project


I used the Delphi-to-Lazarus convertion for my (Delphi) program. Why 
isn't it also converting to UTF-8 if that's necessary?



But I never used it. I would just open in a text editor which can
handle multiple encodings, like notepad++


You mean: Don't use Lazarus but use an alternative standard editor? What 
purpose is the IDE then?



Thanks for the link. But why isn't it documented in the Help of TListBox? No
word there that the strings may be UTF-8 only (and that you somehow have to
store your code files in that coding if you use stings constants).

Because it applies to all of LCL. We would need to repeat that for all
classes from the LCL.


In a documentation I would expect to find such important information (at 
least as a link). Otherwise I don't need it at all and can find out how 
it works myself by trial and error.



You cannot not use Unicode with Lazarus. Only UTF-8 is supported,


Isn't UTF-8 unicode in the same way as UTF-16?


There is obviously some work to be done when migrating to Unicode, but
you will be very happy if you ever need to localize your application
to Russian or chinese, because the application is already unicode
capable and can easely support those languages.


Yes. I don't have a problem with Unicode at all, just the opposite. I 
only miss a clear help that tells me that TStrings in the LCL have to be 
UTF-8 per definition. And it would have saved me lots of debugging hours 
if the strange bug would not have omitted the whole string whenever they 
contain extended characters. It took me a very long time to realize that 
it's a bug in the LCL and that it's related to extended characters and 
that it can be avoided by using AnsiToUTF8.


Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
> Well, I installed and started Lazarus in the standard way so why isn't it
> using UTF-8 by default if that's the only way to store strings? Why let the
> user step into this trap? And how do I change my current code to UTF-8?

In the menu Tools --> Convert encoding of file/project

But I never used it. I would just open in a text editor which can
handle multiple encodings, like notepad++

> Thanks for the link. But why isn't it documented in the Help of TListBox? No
> word there that the strings may be UTF-8 only (and that you somehow have to
> store your code files in that coding if you use stings constants).

Because it applies to all of LCL. We would need to repeat that for all
classes from the LCL.

> Yes, of course that's correct. That's the reason I didn't use Unicode for
> Lazarus either.

You cannot not use Unicode with Lazarus. Only UTF-8 is supported,
which convers all languages, so it's enougth =)

> A quite distracting first contact with Lazarus/FPC.

There is obviously some work to be done when migrating to Unicode, but
you will be very happy if you ever need to localize your application
to Russian or chinese, because the application is already unicode
capable and can easely support those languages.

-- 
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann

You don't need the AnsiToUTF8 if you encode your source file as UTF-8
without a BOM.


Well, I installed and started Lazarus in the standard way so why isn't 
it using UTF-8 by default if that's the only way to store strings? Why 
let the user step into this trap? And how do I change my current code to 
UTF-8?



The difference from Delphi is caused by Lazarus supporting unicode and
also some limitations of Free Pascal, but nothing which prevents the
correct development of unicode apps if you follow the documentation:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/LCL_Unicode_Support


Thanks for the link. But why isn't it documented in the Help of 
TListBox? No word there that the strings may be UTF-8 only (and that you 
somehow have to store your code files in that coding if you use stings 
constants).



Delphi 7 doesn't support unicode, so I doubt you were using unicode
routines there. Isn't that correct?


Yes, of course that's correct. That's the reason I didn't use Unicode 
for Lazarus either. But that failed. So I had a hard time to find out 
myself that I have to use AnsiToUTF8 for each and every constant string 
I use. A quite distracting first contact with Lazarus/FPC.


Jürgen Hestermann.
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[fpc-pascal] Problems with FP-IDE with xterm

2008-12-21 Thread Andrea
Hi,

I've just started using fpc and I noticed that xterm does not show the IDE very 
well.
I'm using xterm

X.Org 6.8.99.903(236)

and fpc 2.2.2

Here are 2 examples

http://xoomer.alice.it/enodetti/log/fp1.png
http://xoomer.alice.it/enodetti/log/fp2.png

I can see that all non standard ASCII character are missing (e.g. stressed 
vowel).
Other times the windows appear diagonal (like the length of the line was wrong).

Should I use some flags, a different character set or a different X terminal?
I've tried fp -F and it does not change much.
I've read the man page, but I did not understand much.

Andrea
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[fpc-pascal] MSEide+MSEgui version 2.0beta2

2008-12-21 Thread Martin Schreiber
Hi,
MSEide+MSEgui version 2.0beta2 has been released:
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=165409

Martin
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
You don't need the AnsiToUTF8 if you encode your source file as UTF-8
without a BOM.

The difference from Delphi is caused by Lazarus supporting unicode and
also some limitations of Free Pascal, but nothing which prevents the
correct development of unicode apps if you follow the documentation:

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/LCL_Unicode_Support

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Jürgen Hestermann
 wrote:
> In the bug report it says that Delphi 7 behaves the same but this is not
> true. I ported my program from Delphi 7 (where it ran without problem) to
> FPC. So I am not sure whether we are talking about the same bug here.

Delphi 7 doesn't support unicode, so I doubt you were using unicode
routines there. Isn't that correct?

The bug is about a unicode routine.

-- 
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann

The UTF8Decode routine kills any string with malformed UTF8 sequences.
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=11791


In the bug report it says that Delphi 7 behaves the same but this is not 
true. I ported my program from Delphi 7 (where it ran without problem) 
to FPC. So I am not sure whether we are talking about the same bug here.


Jürgen Hestermann.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] TListBox bug in LCL of Lazarus?

2008-12-21 Thread Jürgen Hestermann

The UTF8Decode routine kills any string with malformed UTF8 sequences.
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=11791


Thanks for that hint.

I am a bit astonished that this bug has survived 2 updates (was reported 
for 2.2.0 and still exists in 2.2.2).


I also didn't find any information that the strings are forced to be 
UTF8. And how do I insert constant strings in UTF8? Do I realy have to 
look up all sequences when using extented characters?


It took me many hours to find out that the stings were missing only when 
having german umlauts in them. Not a very reliable programming 
environment for serious programming if I invest more time in debugging 
the LCL than in debugging my own programs.



Jürgen Hestermann.
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