Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
Am 02.07.2015 um 12:37 schrieb Serguei TARASSOV: > > Be honest, I have doubts about "Pascal spirit" of this genre. FPC tries to support all flavours of pascal, even ISO. If you are interested only in one flavour, just add the appropriate mode switch to your config and be done. If FPC limited itself only to one flavour, it wouldn't probably exist anymore/being dead. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
Serguei TARASSOV wrote on Thu, 02 Jul 2015:
Object type can be used as "advanced record" in FPC mode only.
I'm agreed that it is good evolution since turbo pascal.
But in Delphi mode you cannot use object type in a same manner (i.e.
for operator overloading) and then should use advanced records.
We can't help that. FPC supported operator overloading long before Delphi did.
As result, when the same unit should be compiled with both Delphi
and FPC, you cannot use the power of both languages but only subset
of them.
I still don't understand this argument. If you want to compile a unit
both with FPC and Delphi, develop the code in Delphi (so you don't
accidentally use FPC-specific routines from the FPC RTL) and use
{$mode delphi} to compile it in FPC. Of course you can't use
FPC-specific features if you want to compile your code also with
Delphi, just like you can't use GCC-specific features if you want to
compile your code also with MSVC.
Over time, we add all (or at least most) features that Delphi support
to {$mode delphi}. It's true that we don't immediately support all
features that Delphi has, but that's not because we refuse to support
them. It's simply because in an open source project the only features
that get supported are the ones that people write patches for (and
these people can be anyone).
For the same reason, not spending time on FPC features would not
automatically mean that support for Delphi features would be
implemented sooner: in an open source project, people primarily work
on what they care about themselves.
Jonas
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 02/07/2015 10:32, fpc-pascal-requ...@lists.freepascal.org wrote: Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 17:51:43 +0200 From: Jonas Maebe To: FPC-Pascal users discussions Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features? The point is that we consider that several features added by Embarcadero make the language less Pascal-like or more complicated for no good reason. "Advanced records" is one such example: that feature already existed, and is called "objects" or "Turbo Pascal-style objects". This is another good example of divergence that complicates the life. Object type can be used as "advanced record" in FPC mode only. I'm agreed that it is good evolution since turbo pascal. But in Delphi mode you cannot use object type in a same manner (i.e. for operator overloading) and then should use advanced records. As result, when the same unit should be compiled with both Delphi and FPC, you cannot use the power of both languages but only subset of them. Be honest, I have doubts about "Pascal spirit" of this genre. Regards, Serguei ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 07/01/2015 05:40 PM, Serguei TARASSOV wrote: Are you agreed that more FPC is compatible with Delphi "by default", more users can use it without troubles and learning additional docs? Delphi is getting so horribly expensive (without noticeable benefit) that the user base is going to shrink dramatically. Hopefully some wile come over to fpc. -Michael ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 07/01/2015 05:51 PM, Jonas Maebe wrote: The point is that we consider that several features added by Embarcadero make the language less Pascal-like or more complicated for no good reason. "Advanced records" is one such example: that feature already existed, and is called "objects" or "Turbo Pascal-style objects". A really "straight forward" comprehensive variant would be to forget all the different keywords and always us class (maybe introducing a static (create does not allocate memory) and a dynamic (heap based) variant). But as this is not at all "pascal like" this supposedly is not a good idea for a thingy called "free Pascal". -Michael ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 2015-07-01 16:47, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: > If you want to use these features all the time, just put them in your config > file. +1 And we all know Embarcadero so often _copy really bad ideas_ from other languages - giving no thought to the beauty and structure of the Object Pascal language. I'm personally very glad the Free Pascal team pay attention to the latter two items. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 01/07/15 17:40, Serguei TARASSOV wrote: > On 01/07/2015 17:08, fpc-pascal-requ...@lists.freepascal.org wrote: >> >> Such new Delphi features are only enabled by default in FPC modes if >> we consider them to not run counter to the spirit of Pascal. That's >> obviously subjective, but so is Embarcadero's decision to introduce >> them. There will never be convergence, because Embarcadero is not >> interested in that. > Sorry, I didn't understand your point. The point is that we consider that several features added by Embarcadero make the language less Pascal-like or more complicated for no good reason. "Advanced records" is one such example: that feature already existed, and is called "objects" or "Turbo Pascal-style objects". > Out of Embarcadero subject, if 100% convergence is not possible why do > divergence? To keep our own dialect as clean as possible (in our eyes). > Are you agreed that more FPC is compatible with Delphi "by default", > more users can use it without troubles and learning additional docs? No, because if all they want is Delphi compatibility, they can use Delphi mode. We don't care about which syntax mode they use. Jonas ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On Wed, 1 Jul 2015, Serguei TARASSOV wrote: and disabled via mode switches. This is a good example of complicating the life. "One option by feature" to activate every new language feature lead to growth of end-user documentation and using $MODE DELPHI when it is not required at all. In the perfect world $MODE DELPHI should be required only to compile same unit in both Delphi and FPC. Why move away this perfect world? Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple is hard, that's creativity. It is very subjective. Not everyone is interested in all these features. If you want to use these features all the time, just put them in your config file. Michael. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 01/07/2015 17:08, fpc-pascal-requ...@lists.freepascal.org wrote:
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 16:54:30 +0200
From: Jonas Maebe
To: FPC-Pascal users discussions
Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
Message-ID:
<20150701165430.horde.fbbhakisjlfvk-8mgx33...@mail.elis.ugent.be>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes
Serguei TARASSOV wrote on Wed, 01 Jul 2015:
>As I see (may be mistaken), some_new_ Delphi features are available
>only in $MODE DELPHI.
>This way lead to divergence of two compilers.
>
>Why do not implement them in FPC "by default" (when it not
>constrained by basic concepts and legacy code) to take the road of
>convergence?
Such new Delphi features are only enabled by default in FPC modes if
we consider them to not run counter to the spirit of Pascal. That's
obviously subjective, but so is Embarcadero's decision to introduce
them. There will never be convergence, because Embarcadero is not
interested in that.
Sorry, I didn't understand your point.
Out of Embarcadero subject, if 100% convergence is not possible why do
divergence?
Are you agreed that more FPC is compatible with Delphi "by default",
more users can use it without troubles and learning additional docs?
>I.e. record functions/constructors may reduce the code and make it more safe.
You can use {$modeswitch advancedrecords} to enable them in any
non-Delphi syntax mode
(http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/prog/progsu106.html ). Virtually
all new language features we add these days can be selectively enabled
and disabled via mode switches.
This is a good example of complicating the life.
"One option by feature" to activate every new language feature lead to
growth of end-user documentation and using $MODE DELPHI when it is not
required at all.
In the perfect world $MODE DELPHI should be required only to compile
same unit in both Delphi and FPC.
Why move away this perfect world?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated
simple is hard, that's creativity.
Regards,
Serguei
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
On 2015-07-01 15:54, Jonas Maebe wrote: > all new language features we add these days can be selectively enabled > and disabled via mode switches. That was/is a very good decision, and makes it quite flexible per project. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi mode for new features?
Serguei TARASSOV wrote on Wed, 01 Jul 2015:
As I see (may be mistaken), some _new_ Delphi features are available
only in $MODE DELPHI.
This way lead to divergence of two compilers.
Why do not implement them in FPC "by default" (when it not
constrained by basic concepts and legacy code) to take the road of
convergence?
Such new Delphi features are only enabled by default in FPC modes if
we consider them to not run counter to the spirit of Pascal. That's
obviously subjective, but so is Embarcadero's decision to introduce
them. There will never be convergence, because Embarcadero is not
interested in that.
I.e. record functions/constructors may reduce the code and make it more safe.
You can use {$modeswitch advancedrecords} to enable them in any
non-Delphi syntax mode
(http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/prog/progsu106.html ). Virtually
all new language features we add these days can be selectively enabled
and disabled via mode switches.
Jonas
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