Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question
My two cents... I agree with a blend of Cheryl's and FR's suggestions. If the user is to remove the covers from the nodes but not remove the nodes, you might go with the following. Remove the covers from the supervisor and each node. If your sentence will be translated, note ing words do not translate well and should (for the most part) be avoided. As with almost everything, there are exceptions. Ramona -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Fred Ridder Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:03 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. The minimalist side of me agrees with Cheryl's suggestions. But the side of me that has answered more customer queries than I care to think about is concerned that the minimal version perhaps goes too far. One thing that bothers me a bit is the the way the noun that immediately follows "covers" is singular, so that a naive customer might wonder where to fond the other cover(s) on the supervisor. I also tend to put sequential information at the beginning of instructions rather than the end. My non-minimalist version would be something like: Before proceeding, remove the covers from all units, including the supervisor and each node. -FR From: Framers on behalf of Cheryl Magadieu Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 1:13 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question "All" is superfluous; I would remove it. I would also remove "before proceeding further"; it is assumed that the user will perform this step before proceeding to the next one. Revised sentence: Remove the covers from the supervisor and nodes. As to whether the revision is "better," minimalists would say that content is easier to read and understand when you streamline a sentence. Cheryl On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Tom Beiswenger < tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com> wrote: > I prefer "A". "Further," though, is redundant. If you are proceeding, > it can be presumed that you are going further. > > -Original Message- > From: Framers emhartglass@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Doug > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:52 PM > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < > framers@lists.frameusers.com> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Framers] Grammar question > > Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it > just a matter of personal preference? > > A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before > proceeding further. > > B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before > proceeding further. > > Thanks! > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's > homepage at > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook > .com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.proofpoint.com*2Fv2*2Furl*3Fu*3Dhtt > p-3A__www.frameusers.com*26d*3DDwICAg*26c*3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqO > f-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM*26r*3DzzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ*26 > m*3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ*26s*3DSiuGPFsFOQJOLDE_ > SJ-Qnc-CJrk0LjDnyKChbn3syGs*26e*3Ddata=02*7C01*7C*7Cbec35d06bb5a4 > 63f5cb308d829abacbc*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435*7C1*7C0*7C63730 > 5164596000319sdata=WSn7wyF5pVboj7uS6yC92bc*2BC9*2FPZhmEZflGudqA*2 > B0k*3Dreserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KPww > _GFiJXw!JVgJj7-l7C5XfP4kygyiW-2Y0eLYlM8bXm4vF8QVoqDIK0P9ia1Y-PMaxsX0Uc > h1TEcD$ > Archives located at > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook > .com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.proofpoint.com*2Fv2*2Furl*3Fu*3Dhtt > p-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_framers-2540lists.frameusers.com_*26d*3DD > wICAg*26c*3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM*26r*3DzzmJd9V- > AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ*26m*3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVB > VogWB8bfyDhXdwQ*26s*3DFn18__Y4754odcMIsHc9IEwEbvtmEov4ICWLFVXXwGw*26e* > 3Ddata=02*7C01*7C*7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc*7C84df9e7fe9 > f640afb435*7C1*7C0*7C637305164596000319sdata=Cood6*2B > 7ejxTzxKWjKhxDWOlNA0TyRAO4SLXozOgjBwM*3Dreserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUl > JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KPww_GFiJXw!JVgJj7-l7C5XfP4kygyiW-2Y0eLYlM > 8bXm4vF8QVoqDIK0P9ia1Y-PMaxsX0UcZGxuS1$ > Subscribe and unsubscribe at > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook > .com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.proofpoint.com*2Fv2*2Furl*3Fu*3Dhtt > p-3A__lists.frameusers.com_listinfo.cgi_framers-2Dframeusers.com*26d*3 > DDwICAg*26c*3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM*26r*3DzzmJd9 > V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ*26m*3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8K >
Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question
The minimalist side of me agrees with Cheryl's suggestions. But the side of me that has answered more customer queries than I care to think about is concerned that the minimal version perhaps goes too far. One thing that bothers me a bit is the the way the noun that immediately follows "covers" is singular, so that a naive customer might wonder where to fond the other cover(s) on the supervisor. I also tend to put sequential information at the beginning of instructions rather than the end. My non-minimalist version would be something like: Before proceeding, remove the covers from all units, including the supervisor and each node. -FR From: Framers on behalf of Cheryl Magadieu Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 1:13 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question "All" is superfluous; I would remove it. I would also remove "before proceeding further"; it is assumed that the user will perform this step before proceeding to the next one. Revised sentence: Remove the covers from the supervisor and nodes. As to whether the revision is "better," minimalists would say that content is easier to read and understand when you streamline a sentence. Cheryl On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Tom Beiswenger < tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com> wrote: > I prefer "A". "Further," though, is redundant. If you are proceeding, it > can be presumed that you are going further. > > -Original Message- > From: Framers emhartglass@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Doug > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:52 PM > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < > framers@lists.frameusers.com> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Framers] Grammar question > > Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it just > a matter of personal preference? > > A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before proceeding > further. > > B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before proceeding > further. > > Thanks! > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage > at > https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.frameusers.com%26d%3DDwICAg%26c%3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3DzzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ%26m%3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ%26s%3DSiuGPFsFOQJOLDE_SJ-Qnc-CJrk0LjDnyKChbn3syGs%26e%3Ddata=02%7C01%7C%7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637305164596000319sdata=WSn7wyF5pVboj7uS6yC92bc%2BC9%2FPZhmEZflGudqA%2B0k%3Dreserved=0 > Archives located at > https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_framers-2540lists.frameusers.com_%26d%3DDwICAg%26c%3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3DzzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ%26m%3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ%26s%3DFn18__Y4754odcMIsHc9IEwEbvtmEov4ICWLFVXXwGw%26e%3Ddata=02%7C01%7C%7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637305164596000319sdata=Cood6%2B7ejxTzxKWjKhxDWOlNA0TyRAO4SLXozOgjBwM%3Dreserved=0 > Subscribe and unsubscribe at > https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__lists.frameusers.com_listinfo.cgi_framers-2Dframeusers.com%26d%3DDwICAg%26c%3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3DzzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ%26m%3DE06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ%26s%3DKBxYkF0KySkbYCmr37ehZehOkyMxnt3R1azJewRra28%26e%3Ddata=02%7C01%7C%7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637305164596000319sdata=N7iZBQtJaffIEJltp%2BIzYbX%2F8uT6cmseTMkyym%2B9XP4%3Dreserved=0 > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com > Visit the list's homepage at > https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frameusers.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637305164596000319sdata=JnfVrbWjWnPRHjyTtRDe9SjS5NlUuXfYk7agHqjNL0k%3Dreserved=0 > Archives located at > https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fframers%2540lists.frameusers.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cbec35d06bb5a463f5cb308d829abacbc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637305164596000319sdata=CFCteYQ%2B849Dzi3KarZCF5A3AjUR5Q9G1lCk%2FuGiq9k%3Dreserved=0 > Subscribe and unsubscribe at >
Re: [Framers] Grammar question
Doug, Do both the nodes and the supervisor have covers? Is it only covers that must be removed or nodes as well? Both sentences are ambiguous, but the most likely meanings are that A. instructs the reader to remove all the covers from the supervisor and from the nodes. B. instructs the reader to remove the covers from the supervisor and to remove all nodes. --Lynne On 7/16/2020 9:51 AM, Doug wrote: Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it just a matter of personal preference? A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before proceeding further. B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before proceeding further. -- Lynne A. Price Text Structure Consulting, Inc. Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and training lpr...@txstruct.comhttp://www.txstruct.com voice/fax: (510) 583-1505 cell phone: (510) 421-2284 ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question
"All" is superfluous; I would remove it. I would also remove "before proceeding further"; it is assumed that the user will perform this step before proceeding to the next one. Revised sentence: Remove the covers from the supervisor and nodes. As to whether the revision is "better," minimalists would say that content is easier to read and understand when you streamline a sentence. Cheryl On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Tom Beiswenger < tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com> wrote: > I prefer "A". "Further," though, is redundant. If you are proceeding, it > can be presumed that you are going further. > > -Original Message- > From: Framers emhartglass@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf Of Doug > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:52 PM > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < > framers@lists.frameusers.com> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Framers] Grammar question > > Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it just > a matter of personal preference? > > A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before proceeding > further. > > B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before proceeding > further. > > Thanks! > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage > at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.frameusers.com=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=SiuGPFsFOQJOLDE_SJ-Qnc-CJrk0LjDnyKChbn3syGs= > Archives located at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_framers-2540lists.frameusers.com_=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=Fn18__Y4754odcMIsHc9IEwEbvtmEov4ICWLFVXXwGw= > Subscribe and unsubscribe at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.frameusers.com_listinfo.cgi_framers-2Dframeusers.com=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=KBxYkF0KySkbYCmr37ehZehOkyMxnt3R1azJewRra28= > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com > Archives located at > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ > Subscribe and unsubscribe at > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com > ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] [EXTERNAL] Grammar question
I prefer "A". "Further," though, is redundant. If you are proceeding, it can be presumed that you are going further. -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:52 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Framers] Grammar question Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it just a matter of personal preference? A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before proceeding further. B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before proceeding further. Thanks! ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.frameusers.com=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=SiuGPFsFOQJOLDE_SJ-Qnc-CJrk0LjDnyKChbn3syGs= Archives located at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_framers-2540lists.frameusers.com_=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=Fn18__Y4754odcMIsHc9IEwEbvtmEov4ICWLFVXXwGw= Subscribe and unsubscribe at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.frameusers.com_listinfo.cgi_framers-2Dframeusers.com=DwICAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=zzmJd9V-AOY-pLCA-v8cPy_mRSvZCZwNZBdUabWmOfQ=E06cd_ebvLhhUxgxFUFz6qKr8KVBVogWB8bfyDhXdwQ=KBxYkF0KySkbYCmr37ehZehOkyMxnt3R1azJewRra28= Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
[Framers] Grammar question
Which of the two sentences is better? Is there a "better", or is it just a matter of personal preference? A. Remove all the covers from the supervisor and nodes before proceeding further. B. Remove the covers from the supervisor and all nodes before proceeding further. Thanks! ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
