Re: [Framers] Looking for an easy way to generate See Also links

[Etzel, Gary]

Are you using structured FrameMaker? We used to do this using a FrameSLT 
script. But it would need structure to work.

Gary Etzel


-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 11:14 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Looking for an easy way to generate See Also links

How about making a mini TOC with the heading 2s

Give it a heading see also

Then have it only show in the Help.

I do this.

I had a problem with page numbers showing in the HTML.
Rick Quatro told me I can make this conditional on the reference page

Caroline Tabach

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 17:35 John Posada,  wrote:

> Good morning.
>
> I'm using FM2019 and outputting as Responsive HTML 5.
>
> Changing tools is not an option.
>
> When I generate the HTML, I'm having it automatically break at the H2
> style. My topic starts at H1.
>
> I'd like to automatically insert the H2 topic links as "See Also"
> links at the bottom of the H1 topic. Any ideas? Are there any scripts
> out there to generate these?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> John Posada
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Re: [Framers] Advice on slimming down a guide; customized guides per customer??

[Etzel, Gary]

Flare has a cloud-based component called MadCap Central that provides various, 
useful collaboration tools, but you don't have to buy/use that.


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+gary.etzel=dnvgl@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
Robert Lauriston
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:16 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Advice on slimming down a guide; customized guides per 
customer??

Flare is old-fashioned locally installed single-user Windows software, like 
FrameMaker.

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 2:12 AM Caroline Tabach  
wrote:
>
> We did look into that, but my understanding is that it is cloud based and 
> therefore not appropriate for what we are doing.
>
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 7:37 PM Robert Lauriston  wrote:
>>
>> My first thought would be to migrate to Flare or Paligo, which are
>> much better at that sort of reuse.


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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Etzel, Gary]

I can't speak to FrameMaker/Robohelp today, as we made this decision a few 
years ago. But I can say that Flare provides numerous templates that are easy 
to modify for your corporate look and feel. So you can get up and running very 
quickly with a great selection of different pre-made output styles. Another key 
factor in our decision to use Flare was the support, training, and webinars 
that MadCap provides. There has been a lot of valid complaints here in the 
forum, that Adobe does not support the technical writing community or its 
technical writing products. It doesn't make Adobe a bad company, it's just the 
way it is. But MadCap does support us, and that has made them a much better 
company to work with in my opinion.

Another point I'd make is that if Online Help is your primary output, rather 
than print or PDF, then working in a topic-based authoring environment like 
Flare or RoboHelp is critical. Think of it this way, in FrameMaker you are 
essentially writing a print-based document that you later convert to Online 
Help. In Flare, you are writing the Online Help directly. It seems like a 
subtle difference at first but once you realize it and embrace it, it 
completely changes the way you write topics and organize your documentation.


-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:35 PM
To: Etzel, Gary ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

But Frame supports HTML5, so where is the advantage in Flare as far as that?


On 26-Jun-18 7:20 PM, Etzel, Gary wrote:
> I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of 
> recovering Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're 
> the people who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell. 
> Sourcerer evolved directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured 
> FrameMaker plugins at West Street Consulting, all of which we used for many 
> years to develop and extremely intricate workflow. But times change. For us, 
> we saw that HTML5 output was the future of our Online Help needs. When we 
> compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close. 
> That was several years ago. We're Flare junkies now and couldn't be happier.
>
> I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but I've 
> never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to switch to 
> Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the TechComm world. 
> But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change and we need to 
> change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software products we 
> love.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gary Etzel
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Etzel, Gary]

I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of recovering 
Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're the people 
who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell. Sourcerer evolved 
directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured FrameMaker plugins at West 
Street Consulting, all of which we used for many years to develop and extremely 
intricate workflow. But times change. For us, we saw that HTML5 output was the 
future of our Online Help needs. When we compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and 
Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close. That was several years ago. We're Flare 
junkies now and couldn't be happier.

I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but I've 
never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to switch to 
Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the TechComm world. 
But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change and we need to 
change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software products we love.

Best regards,

Gary Etzel



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Re: [Framers] structured content - not always called for

[Etzel, Gary]

Well, what I was trying to say is that it's relatively easy to implement 
literal structured authoring in FrameMaker. Once you figure out the mechanics 
of writing an EDD, it's pretty easy to create a simple structure that 
formalizes the rules that you have already been applying mentally in the 
unstructured world, and that can make the authoring process a whole lot easier. 
The broader point I was commenting on is whether DITA has become so prevalent 
that people who do not know about structured authoring are starting to believe 
that implementing structured authoring is the same thing as implementing DITA, 
since the two terms are often used interchangeably.


I thought your presentation was good the way it was. I wasn't trying to imply 
that you should change anything.


Gary


From: Monique Semp 
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:39:02 PM
To: Etzel, Gary; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] structured content - not always called for

>  when we use the term "structure/DITA", don't we give the impression that
> structured authoring is DITA? That you can't have one without the other?
> And that's just not true. My experience is that you can easily (well,
> relatively easily) implement structured authoring in a tool like
> FrameMaker, without the overhead of a full-blown DITA implementation.

Yes!! That is exactly what my presentation is about: how to implement/adopt
some of the good things from structured authoring "and/or" DITA when you're
using other (unstructured) tools.

So perhaps a different title would better convey the focus of the
presentation?

-Monique


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Re: [Framers] structured content - not always called for

[Etzel, Gary]

My question is not directed at you specifically, Monique, but I'm curious about 
how the term "structure/DITA" came into play, as if they are interchangeable 
and mean the same thing. I am seeing this used more and more in presentations 
and online, and it really gets under my skin. DITA is one implementation of 
structured authoring, just like "Kleenex" is one implementation of a "tissue". 
Sure, I understand the need in some industries to have an authoring standard so 
that information can be exchanged and whatnot. But when we use the term 
"structure/DITA", don't we give the impression that structured authoring is 
DITA? That you can't have one without the other? And that's just not true. My 
experience is that you can easily (well, relatively easily) implement 
structured authoring in a tool like FrameMaker, without the overhead of a 
full-blown DITA implementation.

I'd love to hear some opinions on that.


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+gary.etzel=dnvgl@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
Monique Semp
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 11:52 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] structured content - not always called for

> I'll be presenting nuts-and-bolts examples of how to do a bunch of 
> "structured/DITA things" in Word, FrameMaker, Doxygen/Javadoc, and MadCap 
> Flare...
I gave this presentation to the STC-Berkeley chapter last night, and per 
several requests from this list, am sharing the slide deck. You can find it on 
SlideShare: 
http://www.slideshare.net/msemp/adopting-structuredanddita-best-practices-for-any-toolset?qid=38e06f93-0828-471c-a39b-54267a5660d4&v=&b=&from_search=1,
 and on my LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moniquesemp (for now 
in the Summary section, and after “a while” in the experience entry for Society 
for Technical Communication).
I’d certainly welcome comment and discussion, -Monique

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Re: [Framers] What causes documentation to fail

[Etzel, Gary]

I think you should pose the question as "What causes documentation to succeed?" 
Present the issue in a positive light, not a negative one. For example:

- Employing trained, dedicated technical communicators.
- Involving technical documentation from the first day of the project.
- Clearly defining roles, responsibilities, and scope.

And so on.

Gary


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+gary.etzel=dnvgl@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
john.x.pos...@us.hsbc.com
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:49 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] What causes documentation to fail


Hi, guys...by end of today, I need to present to my manager a few bullet points 
for a presentation she is doing on Monday.

The subject is: "What Causes Documentation to Fail"

I've started with a few points:

   Not writing to a well-understood target audience
   Including too little or too much information
   Failure to bring documentation into the project early enough in the
   project
   Failure to establish a governance, review, and approval structure
   Lack of clear  roles and responsibilities
   Belief that “anyone can produce acceptable documentation”
   Lack of feedback early enough in the process to implement without
   wasting a large amount of work and/or affecting deadline
   Scope creep

Anyone want to add more to the list?


John X Posada
SR AML Syst & Ops Supt Data Analyst | Global Risk Analytics | HSBC North 
America Holdings Inc
330 Madison Ave., NY NY

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Re: [Framers] Has anyone got Mif2Go working in FM12?

[Etzel, Gary]

Do you have the DLL that is needed for Frame 12? You can find it on the Mif2Go 
Downloads page of the Mif2go website, down in the Beta Components section.

Regards,

Gary


From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Sean 
Brierley
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 11:11 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Has anyone got Mif2Go working in FM12?

I tried to install it. I want XHTML output with no frills.

Save Using Mif2Go is in the File menu, but when I try to save XHTML, I 
repeatedly get prompted that the ini file is missing and do I want to set up 
Mif2Go. This loop just repeats. Interestingly, there is a mif2go.ini file that 
is created in the same directory as the fm file I am trying to convert.

Advice?

Sean

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Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

[Etzel, Gary]

You want File > Save As and for "Save as type", select Microsoft RTF. You can 
open that file in Word and then continue to work on it as an RTF file, or save 
it to a Word format. I prefer going from a PDF to Word over going from FM to 
Word, although the reasons escape me at the moment.

But I don't do hard core work in Word, so I'm just wondering if there is 
something I am missing, of if there is a lingering dedication to Mif2Go based 
on Word conversion issues I know were present back in FM 7 or even 9, but maybe 
not so much today. I hope others will chime in if they have any insight on 
that. I know Jeremy was a great guy and he earned a lot of respect from the FM 
community, but Mif2Go was not an easy tool to work with. It did absolutely 
everything I ever wanted it to do, but it was not an easy path to get there.

Regards,

Gary


From: Stamm, David [mailto:david.st...@gd-ms.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 10:05 AM
To: Etzel, Gary; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

2016-01-06-03T15:05Z

Gary -

Windows 7 Enterprise Service pack 1
FrameMaker 12.0.4.445
Structured interface with unstructured files

I have the above setup.  I believe that I have the latest update to FrameMaker. 
 I have started the process to get FrameMaker 2015 Release.

I guess I'm missing something in FrameMaker 12 that you have, or I am majorly 
visually impaired this morning.  In the user interfaces - both structured and 
unstructured - I do not find any way to save from .fm to any type of Word 
document.  I imagine that you might have an addon, plugin, or utility that I 
don't have.

I have started to test the save as from PDF file.

Regards,
Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Etzel, 
Gary
Sent: 2016-01-06-Wed 08:44
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

There is one updated DLL that you need to make Mif2Go compatible with Frame 12. 
As for FM 2015, we only tested the 30-day trial and we could not get Mif2Go to 
run. We didn't spend any time investigating why. We assumed it was the same 
issue as FM 12, that Mif2Go probably needed a small code update to recognize 
the new version.

Out of curiosity, why do you need Mif2Go? Saving from Frame to Word is much 
better in the more recent versions, or even saving PDF to Word. I know the 
older versions of Frame had serious problems saving to Word, but I don't see 
that with FM 12. What are you not getting that you think Mif2Go will solve?

Regards,

Gary


From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed 
Zaeem Hosain
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 9:23 PM
To: Scott Prentice; 
framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

Key for making it work in FrameMaker 12 (and probably FrameMaker 2015 too? but 
I have not tried that version), is the one file that needs to be changed. It is 
described in an older post here or at the website perhaps.

Z

From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott 
Prentice
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 01:46 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

http://mif2go.com

Support for FM12/2015 is, from what I understand, not great. I believe that 
some have successfully been able to get it to work. Check the mif2go Yahoo 
group for details.

If you want to help with the future development of Mif2Go, you can download the 
source from GitHub ..

https://github.com/omsys-dev

Cheers,
...scott

On 1/5/16 1:32 PM, Stamm, David wrote:

2016-01-05-02T21:30Z



Please refresh my memory or dispel my ignorance about how and where I may 
obtain Mif2Go for use with FrameMaker 12 and FrameMaker 2015 Release.  This, to 
convert into Word files.



As I recall, Mif2Go and its close relatives were to have become open source 
after Jeremy died.



Thanks,

Dave Stamm

Information Engineer

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Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

[Etzel, Gary]

There is one updated DLL that you need to make Mif2Go compatible with Frame 12. 
As for FM 2015, we only tested the 30-day trial and we could not get Mif2Go to 
run. We didn't spend any time investigating why. We assumed it was the same 
issue as FM 12, that Mif2Go probably needed a small code update to recognize 
the new version.

Out of curiosity, why do you need Mif2Go? Saving from Frame to Word is much 
better in the more recent versions, or even saving PDF to Word. I know the 
older versions of Frame had serious problems saving to Word, but I don't see 
that with FM 12. What are you not getting that you think Mif2Go will solve?

Regards,

Gary


From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed 
Zaeem Hosain
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 9:23 PM
To: Scott Prentice; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

Key for making it work in FrameMaker 12 (and probably FrameMaker 2015 too? but 
I have not tried that version), is the one file that needs to be changed. It is 
described in an older post here or at the website perhaps.

Z

From: Framers [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott 
Prentice
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 01:46 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Mif2Go conversion to Word

http://mif2go.com

Support for FM12/2015 is, from what I understand, not great. I believe that 
some have successfully been able to get it to work. Check the mif2go Yahoo 
group for details.

If you want to help with the future development of Mif2Go, you can download the 
source from GitHub ..

https://github.com/omsys-dev

Cheers,
...scott

On 1/5/16 1:32 PM, Stamm, David wrote:

2016-01-05-02T21:30Z



Please refresh my memory or dispel my ignorance about how and where I may 
obtain Mif2Go for use with FrameMaker 12 and FrameMaker 2015 Release.  This, to 
convert into Word files.



As I recall, Mif2Go and its close relatives were to have become open source 
after Jeremy died.



Thanks,

Dave Stamm

Information Engineer

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RE: Page count even or no

[Etzel, Gary]

We recently changed our templates to eliminate the alternating left/right page 
layouts, since a consistent page layout looks better online, but we still keep 
the blank pages if anyone wants to print double-sided. Our pages are numbered 
consecutively straight through the entire document, starting at the front 
cover, so that the PDF page number always matches the printed page number.

Best regards,

Gary Etzel
Technical Communications Manager
DNV GL


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Flato
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 8:35 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Page count even or no

Do you guys still follow print protocols and produce PDFs with an even number 
of pages per chapter, or no, since everyone reads PDFs online and hardly anyone 
prints a manual anymore?


Thanks!

Gillian Flato
Technical Publications
Pi-Coral, Inc.
gillian.fl...@pi-coral.com



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Outline

[Etzel, Gary]

FrameMaker already does have an "outline" view, but you need to be using
structured FrameMaker to get it. In unstructured FrameMaker, there is
absolutely no difference between a Heading1 and a Heading2, or a
Heading2 and a Note. You may have it all organized in your mind, but
FrameMaker knows nothing about that. It's all just a bunch of different
paragraph formats with different fonts and colors. To turn that into an
outline, you need to define the relationships between one paragraph and
other, in a way that FrameMaker can understand. That's basically what
structured FrameMaker is all about. Once you do that, and you've spent
some time working in FrameMaker's Structure View window, you'll never
want to go back.

Hope that helps,

Gary


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Donlad W.
Spencer
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:47 PM
To: Framers (E-mail)
Subject: Outline

Framer Folks:

As I develop my personally written book in FrameMaker 7.2, especially
since
I have learned to create hot key macros in the customization files,
there is
only one thing about MS Word that I miss - Outline View.

The ability to reduce the book to an outline and manipulate that outline
is
most convenient, and good old solid FrameMaker offers nothing like that,
except the ability to change chapter positions within a book.

Has anybody ever written a 3rd party program that offers something akin
to
Outline View? Would be nice.

~ Don Spencer

donandjudy1 at earthlink.net
beamwardpublications at earthlink.net
www.doortrix.com


This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
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privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments. You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.
Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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RE: Outline

[Etzel, Gary]

FrameMaker already does have an "outline" view, but you need to be using
structured FrameMaker to get it. In unstructured FrameMaker, there is
absolutely no difference between a Heading1 and a Heading2, or a
Heading2 and a Note. You may have it all organized in your mind, but
FrameMaker knows nothing about that. It's all just a bunch of different
paragraph formats with different fonts and colors. To turn that into an
outline, you need to define the relationships between one paragraph and
other, in a way that FrameMaker can understand. That's basically what
structured FrameMaker is all about. Once you do that, and you've spent
some time working in FrameMaker's Structure View window, you'll never
want to go back.

Hope that helps,

Gary


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Donlad W.
Spencer
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:47 PM
To: Framers (E-mail)
Subject: Outline

Framer Folks:

As I develop my personally written book in FrameMaker 7.2, especially
since
I have learned to create hot key macros in the customization files,
there is
only one thing about MS Word that I miss - Outline View.

The ability to reduce the book to an outline and manipulate that outline
is
most convenient, and good old solid FrameMaker offers nothing like that,
except the ability to change chapter positions within a book.

Has anybody ever written a 3rd party program that offers something akin
to
Outline View? Would be nice.

~ Don Spencer

donandju...@earthlink.net
beamwardpublicati...@earthlink.net
www.doortrix.com


This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only. The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments. You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.
Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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How does working with structured Frame differ from regular Frame?(LONG)

[Etzel, Gary]

Hey Wendy, hello from a fellow Mechanicsburg, PA framer! My general
summary on structure is that it takes a lot of time and planning to set
up, but once it is set up, it's much easier to use than unstructured
Frame. I'll second what Scott said, you have to know that you're doing
it for the right reason. So it's great that you're asking so many
questions. If your superiors have clear goals in mind, that's great. But
if this request is just because XML is trendy right now and they don't
really know what they want to achieve, that could easily lead you down
the wrong road. If you do go down this road, I'd encourage you to do it
yourself, or at least learn about it as much as you can along the way.
You want to be the owner of all this knowledge so you can be
self-dependent and not have to rely on others to always be telling you
what to do and how to do it.

A couple quick notes on other things you said:

- It's easy to convert content to structured FrameMaker, provided that
the original content is consistently formatted in some way. If someone
sends you a Word document that strictly follows a template and uses
consistent styles, you can convert that very easily by mapping Word
styles to FrameMaker elements. However, if the Word source does not use
styles, it's going to take a lot of time.

- You can do manual workarounds in structure, but the point of structure
is to not have that kind of stuff. Maybe you can refine your process in
that regard, and maybe not. But manual overrides of any type are
generally frowned upon when you're using structure.

- I've found it easier to train people who have never used FrameMaker to
use structured Frame than unstructured Frame. As I'm sure you already
know, you're not going to find a whole lot of people in south-central PA
with FrameMaker experience, anyway. So I just worry about the other
skills I need, and not waste time looking for FrameMaker on the resume.

One final note, we have a small STC chapter here in Harrisburg with a
couple of real structure junkies in the membership, myself included.
We've always invited non-STC members to attend our chapter events, so if
you were interested, I'd be glad to put you on the mailing list.

Regards,

Gary



This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
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privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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RE: How does working with structured Frame differ from regular Frame?(LONG)

[Etzel, Gary]

Hey Wendy, hello from a fellow Mechanicsburg, PA framer! My general
summary on structure is that it takes a lot of time and planning to set
up, but once it is set up, it's much easier to use than unstructured
Frame. I'll second what Scott said, you have to know that you're doing
it for the right reason. So it's great that you're asking so many
questions. If your superiors have clear goals in mind, that's great. But
if this request is just because XML is trendy right now and they don't
really know what they want to achieve, that could easily lead you down
the wrong road. If you do go down this road, I'd encourage you to do it
yourself, or at least learn about it as much as you can along the way.
You want to be the owner of all this knowledge so you can be
self-dependent and not have to rely on others to always be telling you
what to do and how to do it.

A couple quick notes on other things you said:

- It's easy to convert content to structured FrameMaker, provided that
the original content is consistently formatted in some way. If someone
sends you a Word document that strictly follows a template and uses
consistent styles, you can convert that very easily by mapping Word
styles to FrameMaker elements. However, if the Word source does not use
styles, it's going to take a lot of time.

- You can do manual workarounds in structure, but the point of structure
is to not have that kind of stuff. Maybe you can refine your process in
that regard, and maybe not. But manual overrides of any type are
generally frowned upon when you're using structure.

- I've found it easier to train people who have never used FrameMaker to
use structured Frame than unstructured Frame. As I'm sure you already
know, you're not going to find a whole lot of people in south-central PA
with FrameMaker experience, anyway. So I just worry about the other
skills I need, and not waste time looking for FrameMaker on the resume.

One final note, we have a small STC chapter here in Harrisburg with a
couple of real structure junkies in the membership, myself included.
We've always invited non-STC members to attend our chapter events, so if
you were interested, I'd be glad to put you on the mailing list.

Regards,

Gary



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attachments. You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.
Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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IXGen with Structured FrameMaker

[Etzel, Gary]

Can you explain what you mean by "structured" markers? I thought markers
were the same regardless of whether or not you are using structure.

> We also used IXGen for editing indexes before we moved to structure,
but found that is doesn't work with structured markers.



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
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Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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RE: IXGen with Structured FrameMaker

[Etzel, Gary]

Can you explain what you mean by "structured" markers? I thought markers
were the same regardless of whether or not you are using structure.

> We also used IXGen for editing indexes before we moved to structure,
but found that is doesn't work with structured markers.



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
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Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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Overrides a necessary evil?

[Etzel, Gary]

If you need it that badly, then you can write page breaks into your
structure, so that it's not an override. Set up an attribute on any
elements that could require a page break (Headings, for example) and
write in a context rule that applies a page break if you set the
attribute to a certain value.

Gary


> In my opinion, I think most would agree, page breaks are just about
the
> only acceptable override in non-structured documents. As you point
out,
> sometimes you need to fix awkward breaks.



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
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Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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RE: Overrides a necessary evil?

[Etzel, Gary]

If you need it that badly, then you can write page breaks into your
structure, so that it's not an override. Set up an attribute on any
elements that could require a page break (Headings, for example) and
write in a context rule that applies a page break if you set the
attribute to a certain value.

Gary


> In my opinion, I think most would agree, page breaks are just about
the
> only acceptable override in non-structured documents. As you point
out,
> sometimes you need to fix awkward breaks.



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
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Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
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TOC within a chapter

[Etzel, Gary]

I don't think this option will help in your case, Darren, but in structured 
FrameMaker, you can generate mini-TOCs very easily using the FrameSLT plug-in.


> In this case, updating each chapter individually is what we want. 
> I didn't own a copy of FrameScript until recently, so I'll create a 
> script for those clients who also have FS. The rest of them will 
> have to import the TOC for each chapter.
>
> Anyone else have a 3rd option?



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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RE: TOC within a chapter

[Etzel, Gary]

I don't think this option will help in your case, Darren, but in structured 
FrameMaker, you can generate mini-TOCs very easily using the FrameSLT plug-in.


> In this case, updating each chapter individually is what we want. 
> I didn't own a copy of FrameScript until recently, so I'll create a 
> script for those clients who also have FS. The rest of them will 
> have to import the TOC for each chapter.
>
> Anyone else have a 3rd option?



This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
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Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at Holywell Park, New Ashby Road, Loughborough, 
Leicestershire, LE11 3GR, United Kingdom. 

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FrameMaker 8 and Plugins

[Etzel, Gary]

Sourcerer worked with the FM8 Beta, but you have to open and save your
Sourcerer support files (such as SrrLocalSettings.fm and
SrrMasterSettings.fm) as FM8 files. We have a short upgrade document
available if you have any problems.

Gary Etzel
sourcerer at advanticagroup.com



>> I've got quite a few plugins for my current version of FrameMaker
(7.1). 
>> Does anyone know if any, most, or all of these will become useless
under 
>> FrameMaker 8?
>>
>> I'm anxious to upgrade to FrameMaker 8, but worry that I'll actually
lose 
>> some functionality until the various plugin vendors produce updates.
>>
>> Mike Wickham



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Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at 1-3 Strand, London, WC2N 5EH, United Kingdom. 
VAT Registration No. GB547863011. 

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RE: FrameMaker 8 and Plugins

[Etzel, Gary]

Sourcerer worked with the FM8 Beta, but you have to open and save your
Sourcerer support files (such as SrrLocalSettings.fm and
SrrMasterSettings.fm) as FM8 files. We have a short upgrade document
available if you have any problems.

Gary Etzel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



>> I've got quite a few plugins for my current version of FrameMaker
(7.1). 
>> Does anyone know if any, most, or all of these will become useless
under 
>> FrameMaker 8?
>>
>> I'm anxious to upgrade to FrameMaker 8, but worry that I'll actually
lose 
>> some functionality until the various plugin vendors produce updates.
>>
>> Mike Wickham



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attachments. You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.
Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

Advantica, Inc. is a company incorporated in Delaware with its headquarters at 
600 Bent Creek Blvd., Suite 100, Mechanicsburg, PA  17050 U.S.A.

Advantica Ltd. is a company registered in England and Wales with company No. 
3294136 and registered office at 1-3 Strand, London, WC2N 5EH, United Kingdom. 
VAT Registration No. GB547863011. 

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(Newbie) Structured FM Question: Notes, Tips, etc.

[Etzel, Gary]

> What's the best way to implement this and still get the same end result?
> Should I not be using tables? The closest I can get is inserting a table
> with the same paragraph format assigned to both table cells, which I
> don't want. How do you specify one paragraph format for one column and a
> different format for the second column?


Hi Lin, this is a pretty simple issue, although perhaps a little complex to
explain via text on an email list. In your structure, you want to define two
Table Cell elements -- one element for the table cell that gets the icon,
and the other for the table cell that gets the body text. When you create
your general rule for the Table Row, you want to set up your element
something like the following (assuming that you are setting up a note):

 Element (Table Row): TableRow_Note
  General rule:  TableCell_NoteIcon, TableCell_NoteBody
  Initial structure pattern for table row:  TableCell_NoteIcon,
TableCell_NoteBody

Then, each of the two Table Cell elements can be set up like the following:

Element (Table Cell): TableCell_NoteIcon
 General rule:Note_Icon
 Automatic insertions
  Automatically insert child:  Note_Icon

Element (Table Cell): TableCell_NoteBody
 General rule:  Note_Heading, Note_Body+
 Automatic insertions
  Automatically insert child:  Note_Heading

Those final elements in the general rule -- Note_Icon, Note_Heading, and
Note_Body -- would be paragraph-type elements that contain the text within
your note. One thing you don't want to do is have paragraphs be the child of
the Table Cell itself. If you use paragraph-type elements as children of the
Table Cell elements, you will get much better control over what gets
inserted.

Contact me off list if you're not following me. I've got an example of this
in my own EDD and it works exactly like you want.

Regards,

Gary

This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
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RE: (Newbie) Structured FM Question: Notes, Tips, etc.

[Etzel, Gary]

> What's the best way to implement this and still get the same end result?
> Should I not be using tables? The closest I can get is inserting a table
> with the same paragraph format assigned to both table cells, which I
> don't want. How do you specify one paragraph format for one column and a
> different format for the second column?


Hi Lin, this is a pretty simple issue, although perhaps a little complex to
explain via text on an email list. In your structure, you want to define two
Table Cell elements -- one element for the table cell that gets the icon,
and the other for the table cell that gets the body text. When you create
your general rule for the Table Row, you want to set up your element
something like the following (assuming that you are setting up a note):

 Element (Table Row): TableRow_Note
  General rule:  TableCell_NoteIcon, TableCell_NoteBody
  Initial structure pattern for table row:  TableCell_NoteIcon,
TableCell_NoteBody

Then, each of the two Table Cell elements can be set up like the following:

Element (Table Cell): TableCell_NoteIcon
 General rule:Note_Icon
 Automatic insertions
  Automatically insert child:  Note_Icon

Element (Table Cell): TableCell_NoteBody
 General rule:  Note_Heading, Note_Body+
 Automatic insertions
  Automatically insert child:  Note_Heading

Those final elements in the general rule -- Note_Icon, Note_Heading, and
Note_Body -- would be paragraph-type elements that contain the text within
your note. One thing you don't want to do is have paragraphs be the child of
the Table Cell itself. If you use paragraph-type elements as children of the
Table Cell elements, you will get much better control over what gets
inserted.

Contact me off list if you're not following me. I've got an example of this
in my own EDD and it works exactly like you want.

Regards,

Gary

This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

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cross-reference problem

[Etzel, Gary]

> We are using unstructured FM 7.0. Our book contains several chapters. 
> The files were moved from one location to another location. When the 
> writer opened up the book, he received an "unresolved cross-reference" 
> message. He did a Search on the unresolved-cross references and 
> re-submitted the cross-references. He was able to generate the book, 
> but the next time he opened the book, he received the "unresolved 
> cross-reference" message again. It was the same cross-references. He 
> corrected them again, and the whole cycle repeated itself. Does anyone 
> have an idea of why this keeps happening and how we can resolve it?

I don't know why, but rather than resolve the cross-references, delete them
and create new ones. That should make it go away.

Regards,

Gary


This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
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this transmission.  

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RE: cross-reference problem

[Etzel, Gary]

> We are using unstructured FM 7.0. Our book contains several chapters. 
> The files were moved from one location to another location. When the 
> writer opened up the book, he received an "unresolved cross-reference" 
> message. He did a Search on the unresolved-cross references and 
> re-submitted the cross-references. He was able to generate the book, 
> but the next time he opened the book, he received the "unresolved 
> cross-reference" message again. It was the same cross-references. He 
> corrected them again, and the whole cycle repeated itself. Does anyone 
> have an idea of why this keeps happening and how we can resolve it?

I don't know why, but rather than resolve the cross-references, delete them
and create new ones. That should make it go away.

Regards,

Gary


This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

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Comparing WebWorks versions

[Etzel, Gary]

> Ideally, we'd like to upgrade to the latest version of all software,
> including FrameMaker v7.2 and WebWorks ePublisher Pro. However,
> Sourcerer (which we absolutely rely on) does not yet support FrameMaker
> v7.2.  So for now we'll stick with Frame v7.1.

I've had several users verify that Sourcerer works with Frame 7.2. We have
not tested it ourselves, so we are not yet listing 7.2. as officially being
"supported" on our website (www.advantica.biz/sourcerer). I would recommend
that you try it again and then contact me if you encounter any problems. 

> Two of our team members are about to learn how to use WebWorks Publisher
> Pro to create and modify templates. (Current team members know only how
> to apply existing WWP templates.) However, at least one vendor I've
> consulted no longer offers training on WebWorks Publisher Pro version 7;
> it's simply too old. I'm wondering if we should upgrade to WebWorks
> Publisher Pro 2003 or WebWorks ePublisher Pro.

I would not recommend ePublisher Pro -- it is not ready for use with
structured FrameMaker. There are rumors that the next service release will
fix at least one major bug regarding structured cross-references. However,
support for element-based mappings, which was supported in past versions of
WebWorks and is an essential feature if you use structured FrameMaker, seems
to be a long way off. If you do decide to use ePublisher Pro, you need to
base your EDD solely on paragraph and character formats, and not use EDD
context rules to "override" those formats.

> There is one downside to upgrading: While our desktop publishers will
> have WebWorks Publisher Pro, our authors will have only the WebWorks
> Standard v7 that is included with purchase of FrameMaker. We previously
> found that if we created templates in WWP Pro 2003, authors using WWP
> Standard 7 couldn't output HTML using those templates. (That's why we
> "downgraded" our WebWorks Pro licenses to version 7.) Having authors
> capable of outputting their own HTML is a luxury for us, but not an
> absolute need.

You don't necessarily need a WebWorks license for each user. We only have
two copies -- one is for the person who maintains our templates, and the
other is installed on a shared PC that is available to any writer. All our
builds are done on the shared PC. So you might be able to set up something
similar to that.

Regards,

Gary




This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

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RE: Comparing WebWorks versions

[Etzel, Gary]

> Ideally, we'd like to upgrade to the latest version of all software,
> including FrameMaker v7.2 and WebWorks ePublisher Pro. However,
> Sourcerer (which we absolutely rely on) does not yet support FrameMaker
> v7.2.  So for now we'll stick with Frame v7.1.

I've had several users verify that Sourcerer works with Frame 7.2. We have
not tested it ourselves, so we are not yet listing 7.2. as officially being
"supported" on our website (www.advantica.biz/sourcerer). I would recommend
that you try it again and then contact me if you encounter any problems. 

> Two of our team members are about to learn how to use WebWorks Publisher
> Pro to create and modify templates. (Current team members know only how
> to apply existing WWP templates.) However, at least one vendor I've
> consulted no longer offers training on WebWorks Publisher Pro version 7;
> it's simply too old. I'm wondering if we should upgrade to WebWorks
> Publisher Pro 2003 or WebWorks ePublisher Pro.

I would not recommend ePublisher Pro -- it is not ready for use with
structured FrameMaker. There are rumors that the next service release will
fix at least one major bug regarding structured cross-references. However,
support for element-based mappings, which was supported in past versions of
WebWorks and is an essential feature if you use structured FrameMaker, seems
to be a long way off. If you do decide to use ePublisher Pro, you need to
base your EDD solely on paragraph and character formats, and not use EDD
context rules to "override" those formats.

> There is one downside to upgrading: While our desktop publishers will
> have WebWorks Publisher Pro, our authors will have only the WebWorks
> Standard v7 that is included with purchase of FrameMaker. We previously
> found that if we created templates in WWP Pro 2003, authors using WWP
> Standard 7 couldn't output HTML using those templates. (That's why we
> "downgraded" our WebWorks Pro licenses to version 7.) Having authors
> capable of outputting their own HTML is a luxury for us, but not an
> absolute need.

You don't necessarily need a WebWorks license for each user. We only have
two copies -- one is for the person who maintains our templates, and the
other is installed on a shared PC that is available to any writer. All our
builds are done on the shared PC. So you might be able to set up something
similar to that.

Regards,

Gary




This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

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Sourcerer CMCodes.h file

[Etzel, Gary]

> I am trying to call Sourcerer from a FrameScript script. Sourcerer is 
> supposed to have a CMCodes.h file which sets constants for Sourcerer
return 
> values. If anyone has this file, please let me know, and I may ask you to 
> email it to me. Thank you very much.

Hi Rick, I will send you the file in a separate email. I'm not sure how long
it has been left out of our install, but you are the first person to report
it. If anyone else needs the file, email me off-list and I will send it your
way.

Regards,

Gary



This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
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RE: Sourcerer CMCodes.h file

[Etzel, Gary]

> I am trying to call Sourcerer from a FrameScript script. Sourcerer is 
> supposed to have a CMCodes.h file which sets constants for Sourcerer
return 
> values. If anyone has this file, please let me know, and I may ask you to 
> email it to me. Thank you very much.

Hi Rick, I will send you the file in a separate email. I'm not sure how long
it has been left out of our install, but you are the first person to report
it. If anyone else needs the file, email me off-list and I will send it your
way.

Regards,

Gary



This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

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Mark-up in generated structured lists

[Etzel, Gary]

This may be overkill, but if you have FrameSLT
(www.weststreetconsulting.com), you can use it to simulate a generated list.
I tried it once just to see if it would work. And it did. It's not a
practical approach for most case. Unstructured generated lists seem to be
just fine for most structured documentation needs. But if structured
generated lists are that important to you, FrameSLT can save you the trouble
of having your structure "blown away" each time you regenerate the lists.

Feel free to contact me off list if you would like some more info on this
approach.

Regards,

Gary


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+gary.etzel=advantica@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+gary.etzel=advantica.biz at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 2:02 PM
To: framers at FrameUsers.com
Subject: Mark-up in generated structured lists

Me again... Sarah O'Keefe sort of implies in the 'Complete Reference' that
you can apply structure to generated lists, but as it gets blown away the
next time the list is generated, it's best either not to bother, or do it
last.

Here's the rub: one generated list document in my current template, a list
of figures, uses a character tag to format the figure number ('cos it looks
nice). My EDD is set up so that the individual lines of the generated list
can be wrapped in appropriate elements if required. However, if I do this, I
lose the character mark-up.

Is this a dead-end, or is there any way to preserve the character markup?  
-- 
Steve

This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

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RE: Mark-up in generated structured lists

[Etzel, Gary]

This may be overkill, but if you have FrameSLT
(www.weststreetconsulting.com), you can use it to simulate a generated list.
I tried it once just to see if it would work. And it did. It's not a
practical approach for most case. Unstructured generated lists seem to be
just fine for most structured documentation needs. But if structured
generated lists are that important to you, FrameSLT can save you the trouble
of having your structure "blown away" each time you regenerate the lists.

Feel free to contact me off list if you would like some more info on this
approach.

Regards,

Gary


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 2:02 PM
To: framers@FrameUsers.com
Subject: Mark-up in generated structured lists

Me again... Sarah O'Keefe sort of implies in the 'Complete Reference' that
you can apply structure to generated lists, but as it gets blown away the
next time the list is generated, it's best either not to bother, or do it
last.

Here's the rub: one generated list document in my current template, a list
of figures, uses a character tag to format the figure number ('cos it looks
nice). My EDD is set up so that the individual lines of the generated list
can be wrapped in appropriate elements if required. However, if I do this, I
lose the character mark-up.

Is this a dead-end, or is there any way to preserve the character markup?  
-- 
Steve

This e-mail, and any attachments are strictly confidential and intended for the 
addressee(s) only.  The content may also contain legal, professional or other 
privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify 
the sender immediately, by return of email, and then delete the e-mail and any 
attachments.  You should not disclose, copy or take any action in reliance on 
this transmission.  

Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any 
documents from this transmission.

__
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