Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[David Creamer]

As mentioned in my first post, InDesign does not have table variables 
(unfortunately).

The table title can be a regular paragraph style that runs above the table and 
is kept with the table, so not having a “table title row” doesn’t really have 
an impact either way. The table styles can have chapter-based numbering setup 
just like Frame.

Table styles can—and should—control table rules; cell styles are for 
_overrides_ to the default table style settings. Most table features have been 
the same since CS3.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training

-Original Message-
Date: Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:14 PM
Subject: Framers Digest, Vol 135, Issue 19

FM enables you to add variables to running table titles - e.g., ?Continued? 
or ?page x of y,? a feature that doesn?t exist in InDesign. If you bang around 
on the web you?ll find discussions of workarounds in ID, but they?re all a bit 
of a hassle. I once worked on a publication that contained two tables that ran 
300+ pages. The ?page x of y? feature was definitely useful.

ID doesn?t distinguish between a table title row and heading rows.

It?s been awhile, so I?ll probably get this about half wrong, but I seem to 
recall that table rules are built into the cell styles. This has caused me some 
problems in the past. Sorry to be so vague, but that?s as much of it as I 
remember.





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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[D L Reynolds]

> Donna,
> 
> Can you cite a few examples of ways that Frames table editor is superior to 
> InDesign and/or things that can be done with tables in Frame that cannot be 
> done in InDesign? The publication in question is almost entirely composed of 
> tables.. around 600 to be exact!
> 
> These may very well be the type of arguments I need to make clear to the 
> powers that be!
> 
> Thanks
> -Mike

First a caveat - I’m still using ID CS6, trying to avoid Adobe’s subscription 
model for as long as possible. To the best of my knowledge, these points are 
still true but be sure to check.

FM enables you to add variables to running table titles - e.g., “Continued” or 
“page x of y,” a feature that doesn’t exist in InDesign. If you bang around on 
the web you’ll find discussions of workarounds in ID, but they’re all a bit of 
a hassle. I once worked on a publication that contained two tables that ran 
300+ pages. The “page x of y” feature was definitely useful.

ID doesn’t distinguish between a table title row and heading rows.

It’s been awhile, so I’ll probably get this about half wrong, but I seem to 
recall that table rules are built into the cell styles. This has caused me some 
problems in the past. Sorry to be so vague, but that’s as much of it as I 
remember.

Hope this helps a little.

-dr

Donna Reynolds

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Tori Muir]

Again, based on painful personal experience I must respectfully disagree. 
*Production artists* can be trained to do things in a systematic and 
template-based fashion – they're thrilled to find built-in tools to make the 
whole process faster,  more consistent, and more maintainable. But true 
designers won't agree to learn it/won't retain it, or will only do it until 
you're no longer working with that company, at which point they will blissfully 
revert to creating the prettiest pages they can. 

Tori Muir
tm...@spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674 | www.spot-on-creative.com 

On 6/24/17, 12:59 PM, "Framers on behalf of David Creamer" 
 wrote:

That is just a result of poor training. It may or may not be the designer's
fault--most likely the company/manager is to blame by not providing the
training or enforcing a professional workflow.

In my experience, once a designer sees the advantages of using based-on
master pages, text styles, and object styles, they will be happy to switch
over. This is especially true for large projects like a book.


David Creamer
IDEAS Training
ADOBE Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1994
Training on: Acrobat, LiveCycle Designer, InDesign, InCopy, Photoshop,
Illustrator, Flash, After Effects, Fireworks, Premiere
Pro, Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp
FrameMaker Certified since 1991, including structured XML
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988
Microsoft Office training, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access,
Publisher, Project, and more
FileMaker Business Alliance member: Trainer
Authorized FlightCheck Instructor



-Original Message-
Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are
first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting
everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very
difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a
structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the
InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up
an auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think
what would happen if they tried indexing. 

I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using
InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them.
If, on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one
might use Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the
time a client had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235
pages containing ~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single
paragraph/character format defined, no generated TOC or index, no book
files, not even auto-connected text flows from page to page. The most
advanced thing they'd done was add a page number to the master page.  But
the catalog *looked* lovely!

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[David Creamer]

I would give InDesign the edge over tables with its advanced Table, Cell,
and Paragraph styles.
ID can link to the Excel file to pull in updates to the data; with a
third-party plug-in even more features are available, such as two-way edit
updates.
Also, InDesign can import/link to a single worksheet or a named region from
a large spreadsheet.
A little more trouble to set up, but once you do, the table styles work
great. 

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
ADOBE Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1994
Training on: Acrobat, LiveCycle Designer, InDesign, InCopy, Photoshop,
Illustrator, Flash, After Effects, Fireworks, Premiere
Pro, Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp
FrameMaker Certified since 1991, including structured XML
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988
Microsoft Office training, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access,
Publisher, Project, and more
FileMaker Business Alliance member: Trainer
Authorized FlightCheck Instructor



___
From: D L Reynolds <reyno...@semicool.com>
I use both FrameMaker and InDesign, love them both. But if the document in
question has a lot of tables, stay with FrameMaker. FrameMaker?s table
editor is far superior to InDesign?s IMO.
...
Donna Reynolds

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[David Creamer]

Rick,

As mentioned, InDesign's indexing definitely lags behind Frame's. If the job
has enough profit built in, I would look at a commercial plug-in/script,
such as IndexMatic or Virginia Systems.

One tip (don't know if this will help): since index entries are hyperlinked,
turn off Auto Update URL Status in the Hyperlinks panel menu. That will
prevent ID from trying to update as it goes.

Another thing that causes it to take forever is the multiple undos. I have
this problem when using database plug-ins. ID wants to make an undo step
every step of the way. I don't know of any want to stop it from doing that.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
http://www.ideastraining.com

Adobe Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1995
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988
Authorized FileMaker Instructor



Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:04 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

All good points about InDesign and people not using styles, etc. One other
issue about indexes: I happen to be working on a 438 page InDesign book
today and I started generated the index about an hour and fifteen minutes
ago and it still hasn't finished. I am working on a machine with a Xeon
process and 64 gigs of RAM!

Rick

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[David Creamer]

That is just a result of poor training. It may or may not be the designer's
fault--most likely the company/manager is to blame by not providing the
training or enforcing a professional workflow.

In my experience, once a designer sees the advantages of using based-on
master pages, text styles, and object styles, they will be happy to switch
over. This is especially true for large projects like a book.


David Creamer
IDEAS Training
ADOBE Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1994
Training on: Acrobat, LiveCycle Designer, InDesign, InCopy, Photoshop,
Illustrator, Flash, After Effects, Fireworks, Premiere
Pro, Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp
FrameMaker Certified since 1991, including structured XML
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988
Microsoft Office training, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access,
Publisher, Project, and more
FileMaker Business Alliance member: Trainer
Authorized FlightCheck Instructor



-Original Message-
Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are
first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting
everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very
difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a
structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the
InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up
an auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think
what would happen if they tried indexing. 

I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using
InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them.
If, on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one
might use Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the
time a client had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235
pages containing ~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single
paragraph/character format defined, no generated TOC or index, no book
files, not even auto-connected text flows from page to page. The most
advanced thing they'd done was add a page number to the master page.  But
the catalog *looked* lovely!

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Craig Ede]

I once worked doing translation of medical device labels where the users were 
using FM and ad hoc formatting everything. Every paragraph was an override. 
Makes things hard. So it's not just ID that has that potential problem!


Craig


From: Framers <framers-bounces+craigede=hotmail@lists.frameusers.com> on 
behalf of Rick Quatro <r...@rickquatro.com>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:04 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

All good points about InDesign and people not using styles, etc. One other 
issue about indexes: I happen to be working on a 438 page InDesign book today 
and I started generated the index about an hour and fifteen minutes ago and it 
still hasn't finished. I am working on a machine with a Xeon process and 64 
gigs of RAM!

Rick

-Original Message-
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Tori Muir
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:15 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are 
first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting 
everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very 
difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a 
structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the 
InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up an 
auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think what 
would happen if they tried indexing.

I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using 
InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them. If, 
on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one might use 
Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the time a client 
had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235 pages containing 
~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single paragraph/character format 
defined, no generated TOC or index, no book files, not even auto-connected text 
flows from page to page. The most advanced thing they'd done was add a page 
number to the master page.  But the catalog *looked* lovely!

Tori Muir


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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Craig Ede]

Mickey,


Where is your company located (if you don't mind my asking)? The thing is, 
there are plenty of very experienced FrameMaker users around, as evidenced by 
this list. There are probably more that an couple in your area who could pick 
up the pieces if (God forbid) you were hit by a bus. I often tell my handlers 
the same thing about my own job. The nice thing is, after working for a 
particular business for a while, your expertise goes far beyond the tool and 
delves into the particular business. As a result one becomes more valuable than 
any potential replacement making replacement an unlikely scenario barring some 
cataclysm. FM mavens get paid fairly well, but the advantages of the tool 
usually make that a very worthwhile investment.


Craig



From: Framers <framers-bounces+craigede=hotmail@lists.frameusers.com> on 
behalf of Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:48 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

They’ve had two people trained previously but both have since moved on to other 
opportunities...


> On Jun 23, 2017, at 2:03 PM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com> wrote:
>
> Or train someone else to use FrameMaker. Someone who knows InDesign
> shouldn't have much trouble learning it.
>
> Wha'ts delivered to the customer? FM files or PDF or ?
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why?
>>
>> Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is
>> that I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one
>> publication is a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen
>> to me or my employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves
>> between the proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is
>> why not hire someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me
>> upright? I have no idea what their answer would be to that question.
>>
>> I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is
>> for more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In
>> today's workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security
>> of this publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather
>> not give that up if I don't have to ;-)
>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?
>>>
>>> The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
>>> and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
>>> distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.
>>>
>>> There's a service that will do the conversion:
>>> http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
[http://www.dtptools.com/images/mfid_banner_w.jpg]<http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid>

DTP Tools - MIF Filter for Adobe 
InDesign<http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid>
www.dtptools.com
€ 35-1800 BUY NOW Whether you plan to migrate your workflow, or you just need 
to edit a few FrameMaker documents in InDesign, MIF Filter is the right choice.


>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major
>> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
>> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
>> scratch as an InDesign document.
>>> ___
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Mikey Shine]

Donna,

Can you cite a few examples of ways that Frames table editor is superior to 
InDesign and/or things that can be done with tables in Frame that cannot be 
done in InDesign? The publication in question is almost entirely composed of 
tables.. around 600 to be exact!

These may very well be the type of arguments I need to make clear to the powers 
that be!

Thanks
-Mike



> On Jun 23, 2017, at 6:21 PM, D L Reynolds <reyno...@semicool.com> wrote:
> 
> I use both FrameMaker and InDesign, love them both. But if the document in 
> question has a lot of tables, stay with FrameMaker. FrameMaker’s table editor 
> is far superior to InDesign’s IMO.
> 
> I’ve converted hundreds of docs from FrameMaker to InDesign — some of which 
> shouldn’t have been converted, but the customer is always right. 8-) The 
> degree of complexity depends on the complexity of the document being 
> converted.
> 
> -dr
> 
> Donna Reynolds
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[D L Reynolds]

I use both FrameMaker and InDesign, love them both. But if the document in 
question has a lot of tables, stay with FrameMaker. FrameMaker’s table editor 
is far superior to InDesign’s IMO.

I’ve converted hundreds of docs from FrameMaker to InDesign — some of which 
shouldn’t have been converted, but the customer is always right. 8-) The degree 
of complexity depends on the complexity of the document being converted.

 -dr

Donna Reynolds
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Mikey Shine]

They’ve had two people trained previously but both have since moved on to other 
opportunities...


> On Jun 23, 2017, at 2:03 PM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com> wrote:
> 
> Or train someone else to use FrameMaker. Someone who knows InDesign
> shouldn't have much trouble learning it.
> 
> Wha'ts delivered to the customer? FM files or PDF or ?
> 
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Why?
>> 
>> Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is
>> that I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one
>> publication is a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen
>> to me or my employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves
>> between the proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is
>> why not hire someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me
>> upright? I have no idea what their answer would be to that question.
>> 
>> I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is
>> for more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In
>> today's workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security
>> of this publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather
>> not give that up if I don't have to ;-)
>> 
>>> On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?
>>> 
>>> The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
>>> and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
>>> distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.
>>> 
>>> There's a service that will do the conversion:
>>> http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major
>> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
>> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
>> scratch as an InDesign document.
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>> 
>>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
>>> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
>>> Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/
>> framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
>>> Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/
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>>> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>> ___
>> 
>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
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>> 
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Rick Quatro]

All good points about InDesign and people not using styles, etc. One other 
issue about indexes: I happen to be working on a 438 page InDesign book today 
and I started generated the index about an hour and fifteen minutes ago and it 
still hasn't finished. I am working on a machine with a Xeon process and 64 
gigs of RAM!

Rick

-Original Message-
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Tori Muir
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 3:15 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are 
first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting 
everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very 
difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a 
structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the 
InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up an 
auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think what 
would happen if they tried indexing. 

I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using 
InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them. If, 
on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one might use 
Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the time a client 
had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235 pages containing 
~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single paragraph/character format 
defined, no generated TOC or index, no book files, not even auto-connected text 
flows from page to page. The most advanced thing they'd done was add a page 
number to the master page.  But the catalog *looked* lovely!

Tori Muir


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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

That's one argument for sticking with Frame: it might take a lot more
time to update and maintain in InDesign.

Though if the company has multiple InDesign users, they may have a
handle on that. The heavy InDesign users I know mostly use it in a
pretty template-driven manner, taking content written in Word and
assembling it into books to be printed and/or ebooks to be sold.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Tori Muir  wrote:
>
> Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are 
> first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting 
> everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very 
> difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a 
> structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the 
> InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up an 
> auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think what 
> would happen if they tried indexing.
>
> I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using 
> InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them. If, 
> on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one might 
> use Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the time a 
> client had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235 pages 
> containing ~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single 
> paragraph/character format defined, no generated TOC or index, no book files, 
> not even auto-connected text flows from page to page. The most advanced thing 
> they'd done was add a page number to the master page.  But the catalog 
> *looked* lovely!
>
> Tori Muir
>
>
> On 6/23/17, 11:03 AM, "Framers on behalf of Robert Lauriston" 
>  rob...@lauriston.com> wrote:
>
> Or train someone else to use FrameMaker. Someone who knows InDesign
> shouldn't have much trouble learning it.
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Craig, Alison]

Couldn't agree more!

Alison
__

From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+acraig=bkultrasound@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Monique Semp
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:20 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

> Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD
> are first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about
> hand-formatting everything on the page to produce a lovely composition.

Yes! I've indeed worked with InDesign designers who have every format
manually applied. Their idea of a "template" is simply a copy/paste of a
previous doc. It's horrible to work with their files. I've ended up creating
my own properly structured/styled InDesign templates and treating their
files as content source material, just as I do when I work with people in
Word. It's no different.

-Monique

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Monique Semp]

Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD 
are first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about 
hand-formatting everything on the page to produce a lovely composition.


Yes! I've indeed worked with InDesign designers who have every format 
manually applied. Their idea of a "template" is simply a copy/paste of a 
previous doc. It's horrible to work with their files. I've ended up creating 
my own properly structured/styled InDesign templates and treating their 
files as content source material, just as I do when I work with people in 
Word. It's no different.


-Monique 


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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Tori Muir]

Regrettably, that isn't necessarily true. A lot of the folks who use InD are 
first and foremost *designers*, and have no qualms about hand-formatting 
everything on the page to produce a lovely composition. It can be very 
difficult to get users with that mindset to switch to a 
structure-based/formats-driven viewpoint. Additionally, a huge number of the 
InD users I've worked with/trained in long document work can't even set up an 
auto-bulleted paragraph, let alone autonumbering, and I shudder to think what 
would happen if they tried indexing. 

I would qualify the below statement by saying that if they are already using 
InD the way one needs to use Frame, you'll have no problem training them. If, 
on the other hand, their preferred approach is to use InD the way one might use 
Illustrator, you're in for a rough ride. I'll never forget the time a client 
had me update the InD files for their product catalog: 235 pages containing 
~800 products, a TOC and an  index, without a single paragraph/character format 
defined, no generated TOC or index, no book files, not even auto-connected text 
flows from page to page. The most advanced thing they'd done was add a page 
number to the master page.  But the catalog *looked* lovely!

Tori Muir
 

On 6/23/17, 11:03 AM, "Framers on behalf of Robert Lauriston" 
<framers-bounces+tmuir=spot-on-creative@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of 
rob...@lauriston.com> wrote:

Or train someone else to use FrameMaker. Someone who knows InDesign
shouldn't have much trouble learning it.

Wha'ts delivered to the customer? FM files or PDF or ?

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why?
>
> Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is
> that I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one
> publication is a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen
> to me or my employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves
> between the proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is
> why not hire someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back 
me
> upright? I have no idea what their answer would be to that question.
>
> I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is
> for more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In
> today's workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security
> of this publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather
> not give that up if I don't have to ;-)
>
> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?
> >
> > The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
> > and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
> > distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.
> >
> > There's a service that will do the conversion:
> > http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
> scratch as an InDesign document.
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> > Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/
> framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

Or train someone else to use FrameMaker. Someone who knows InDesign
shouldn't have much trouble learning it.

Wha'ts delivered to the customer? FM files or PDF or ?

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why?
>
> Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is
> that I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one
> publication is a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen
> to me or my employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves
> between the proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is
> why not hire someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me
> upright? I have no idea what their answer would be to that question.
>
> I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is
> for more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In
> today's workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security
> of this publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather
> not give that up if I don't have to ;-)
>
> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?
> >
> > The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
> > and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
> > distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.
> >
> > There's a service that will do the conversion:
> > http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
> scratch as an InDesign document.
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> > Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/
> framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/
> listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Peter Gold]

Good summary, David. I think I learned a couple of new points of comparison
between FM and ID beyond those in the several articles and discussions that
result from the Google search I suggested earlier.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Creamer  wrote:

> I use, teach, and consult for both programs--just completed a 1400 page
> book
> in InDesign. When you say "publications", are you referring to books or
> magazine-type products? If the latter, generally InDesign would be a much
> better choice, but not having seen the publication I can only give
>
> For unstructured books, they can do many of the same things. For structured
> books, there is no question--FrameMaker is better.
>
> There are some of the things that come to mind (certainly not
> exhaustive...).
>
> FrameMaker
> Excels at complex Books since it can use groups, folders, and sub-Books;
> InDesign uses basic Book features (think Frame 7).
> Conditional text is more powerful for tables with conditional rows and
> columns; InDesign conditions apply to the entire table.
> Variables can include character styles and can break across lines;
> InDesign's variables can't.
> Can have table footnotes; InDesign doesn't have this feature.
> Can have run-in heads; InDesign does not offer this feature.
> Can have multiple indices; InDesign only has one. (There are awkward
> workarounds.)
>
> InDesign
> Typography is head-and-shoulders about Frame's and it's paragraph styles
> are
> more advanced with nested styles and GREP styles.
> Table formatting is more powerful with cell styles, but does not have table
> variables.
> Handles graphics better, especially oversized ones and graphics with
> transparency or layers.
> Better color handling for swatches, gradients, and spot colors; special
> effects built-in.
> Based-on master pages.
> Has options for having writers edit document without having InDesign,
> including InCopy, Em Software WordsFlow, and DTP Tools Annotations (the
> last
> one adds a feature built-into Frame).
> Cross-platform
> Multiple page sizes/orientation in same document.
> Undo's work for virtually anything.
> Generally, the Creative Cloud is a better option compared with the Tech.
> Communication Suite, at the same cost.
> Easy bleed, slug setup; preflight for document.
> EPUBs can include built-in animations.
> More off-the-shelf plug-ins and scripts available.
>
> Conversion
> "Free" option: Build InDesign template, export text as RTF; import into
> InDesign with styles, modify styles as needed.
> Fee-based option: DTP Tools MIF Filter <
> http://dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid>


​I mentioned the dtptools.com MIF Filter plug-in for InDesign in my earlier
post, but I think I omitted or inadvertently truncated the reference to my
detailed review of in a 2007 issue of InDesign Magazine. (I believe they
offer all back issues for sale.)​

​It's worth noting that their technical support folks are great and respond
quickly, with the caveat that they're in Europe, so USA-based workers
should allow for the time difference.​
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[David Creamer]

I use, teach, and consult for both programs--just completed a 1400 page book
in InDesign. When you say "publications", are you referring to books or
magazine-type products? If the latter, generally InDesign would be a much
better choice, but not having seen the publication I can only give 

For unstructured books, they can do many of the same things. For structured
books, there is no question--FrameMaker is better.

There are some of the things that come to mind (certainly not
exhaustive...).

FrameMaker
Excels at complex Books since it can use groups, folders, and sub-Books;
InDesign uses basic Book features (think Frame 7).
Conditional text is more powerful for tables with conditional rows and
columns; InDesign conditions apply to the entire table.
Variables can include character styles and can break across lines;
InDesign's variables can't.
Can have table footnotes; InDesign doesn't have this feature.
Can have run-in heads; InDesign does not offer this feature.
Can have multiple indices; InDesign only has one. (There are awkward
workarounds.)

InDesign
Typography is head-and-shoulders about Frame's and it's paragraph styles are
more advanced with nested styles and GREP styles.
Table formatting is more powerful with cell styles, but does not have table
variables.
Handles graphics better, especially oversized ones and graphics with
transparency or layers.
Better color handling for swatches, gradients, and spot colors; special
effects built-in.
Based-on master pages.
Has options for having writers edit document without having InDesign,
including InCopy, Em Software WordsFlow, and DTP Tools Annotations (the last
one adds a feature built-into Frame).
Cross-platform
Multiple page sizes/orientation in same document.
Undo's work for virtually anything.
Generally, the Creative Cloud is a better option compared with the Tech.
Communication Suite, at the same cost.
Easy bleed, slug setup; preflight for document. 
EPUBs can include built-in animations.
More off-the-shelf plug-ins and scripts available.

Conversion
"Free" option: Build InDesign template, export text as RTF; import into
InDesign with styles, modify styles as needed.
Fee-based option: DTP Tools MIF Filter <
http://dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid>

Let me know if you have any other questions.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
ADOBE Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1994
Training on: Acrobat, LiveCycle Designer, InDesign, InCopy, Photoshop,
Illustrator, Flash, After Effects, Fireworks, Premiere
Pro, Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp
FrameMaker Certified since 1991, including structured XML
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988
Microsoft Office training, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access,
Publisher, Project, and more
FileMaker Business Alliance member: Trainer
Authorized FlightCheck Instructor

___

My company has informed me that they?d like to switch one of our major
publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
option, they wouldn?t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
scratch as an InDesign document.
Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that
were faced?
Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this
publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign? 

Thanks in advance for your help!

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Hi Mikey - just a reminder that if you reply to one of us on the list, you're 
replying to all, so there's no need to duplicate your response back to each 
person ;>)

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of Mikey Shine
Sent: June-22-17 9:39 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

Why?

Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is that 
I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one publication is 
a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen to me or my 
employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves between the 
proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is why not hire 
someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me upright? I have 
no idea what their answer would be to that question.

I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is for 
more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In today's 
workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security of this 
publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather not give that 
up if I don't have to ;-)


> On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:56 AM, Rick Quatro <r...@rickquatro.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mikey,
> 
> The first question I always ask is "Why?" Is it because of InDesign's 
> superior color handling and typography, and those are required for this 
> publication? Is it because content providers or primary authors already have 
> InDesign? Is it because IT supports Creative Cloud apps but doesn't want to 
> support FrameMaker? Is it because somebody in the company thinks FrameMaker 
> is dead? Without answers to questions like this, it is difficult to provide 
> you with pros/cons.
> 
> I have done several of these conversions over the years. I have also 
> convinced others to stay with FrameMaker because (based on the answers to the 
> questions above) it didn't make sense to switch. I would be glad to meet with 
> you off list to get more details and give you some suggestions. Thanks.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> r...@frameexpert.com
> 585-366-4017
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
> Of Mikey Shine
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:23 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign
> 
> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an 
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from 
> scratch as an InDesign document.
> 
> Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that were 
> faced?
> 
> Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this 
> publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign? 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at  
> http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> 
> ___
> 
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> 
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Mikey Shine]

Why?

Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is that 
I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one publication is 
a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen to me or my 
employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves between the 
proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is why not hire 
someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me upright? I have 
no idea what their answer would be to that question.

I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is for 
more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In today's 
workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security of this 
publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather not give that 
up if I don't have to ;-)


> On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:56 AM, Rick Quatro <r...@rickquatro.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mikey,
> 
> The first question I always ask is "Why?" Is it because of InDesign's 
> superior color handling and typography, and those are required for this 
> publication? Is it because content providers or primary authors already have 
> InDesign? Is it because IT supports Creative Cloud apps but doesn't want to 
> support FrameMaker? Is it because somebody in the company thinks FrameMaker 
> is dead? Without answers to questions like this, it is difficult to provide 
> you with pros/cons.
> 
> I have done several of these conversions over the years. I have also 
> convinced others to stay with FrameMaker because (based on the answers to the 
> questions above) it didn't make sense to switch. I would be glad to meet with 
> you off list to get more details and give you some suggestions. Thanks.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> r...@frameexpert.com
> 585-366-4017
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
> Of Mikey Shine
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:23 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign
> 
> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an 
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from 
> scratch as an InDesign document.
> 
> Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that were 
> faced?
> 
> Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this 
> publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign? 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!
> ___
> 
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Mikey Shine]

Why?

Well I think the easy answer is that I hear most often from my employer is that 
I am the ONLY one who can work on this publication and this one publication is 
a huge part of the contract. Should something either happen to me or my 
employment with the company, they feel they'd find themselves between the 
proverbial rock and a hard place fast. The obvious question is why not hire 
someone else with the necessary experience in Frame to back me upright? I have 
no idea what their answer would be to that question.

I guess if I'm being totally honest here, what I'm actually looking for is for 
more pros than cons as to why this document should remain in Frame. In today's 
workplace, I've found there's nothing quite like the job security of this 
publication being a native FrameMaker file and I'd really rather not give that 
up if I don't have to ;-)

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com> wrote:
> 
> What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?
> 
> The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
> and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
> distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.
> 
> There's a service that will do the conversion:
> http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
>> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an 
>> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from 
>> scratch as an InDesign document.
> ___
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Steve Rickaby]

At 22:12 +0100 22/6/17, Steve Rickaby wrote:

>[This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear 
>to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]

I definitely am who I appear to be. I have been who I appear to be since I 
joined this group in 2003, and maybe even before that. In fact I am sure that I 
have been who I appear to be since I first appeared, in July 1949.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Steve Rickaby]

Echoing others' queries as to why?

Many years ago I attended an interview for a contract with a client that had 
advertised a job as requiring 'Pagemaker skills'. I did not have 'Pagemaker 
skills' (even by then Pagemaker was obsolete), but I was intrigued.

In discussion it turned out that "someone who knows about technical 
documentation told us that we should do it in Pagemaker".

I got the contract, and did it in FrameMaker.

Moral? Management often operates on hearsay, and your say is often better that 
their say ;-)
 
-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Craig, Alison]

Once you’ve worked out the details of what management is trying to accomplish 
in switching from Frame to InDesign, I’d be interested to see the final list of 
pros and cons.

Alison Craig
Technical Documentation Specialist
BK Ultrasound | acr...@bkultrasound.com

From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+acraig=bkultrasound@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 8:56 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

Hi Mikey,

The first question I always ask is "Why?" Is it because of InDesign's superior 
color handling and typography, and those are required for this publication? Is 
it because content providers or primary authors already have InDesign? Is it 
because IT supports Creative Cloud apps but doesn't want to support FrameMaker? 
Is it because somebody in the company thinks FrameMaker is dead? Without 
answers to questions like this, it is difficult to provide you with pros/cons.

I have done several of these conversions over the years. I have also convinced 
others to stay with FrameMaker because (based on the answers to the questions 
above) it didn't make sense to switch. I would be glad to meet with you off 
list to get more details and give you some suggestions. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com<mailto:r...@frameexpert.com>
585-366-4017



-Original Message-
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Mikey Shine
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:23 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an option, 
they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from scratch as 
an InDesign document.

Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that were 
faced?

Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this 
publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign?

Thanks in advance for your help!
___

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Peter Gold]

Converting publications from any application to another is always a
challenge. Search Google for "framemaker vs indesign" for opinions and
experiences and advice.

dtptools.com introduced its MIF filter for InDesign, a utility that
converts FrameMaker files saved as MIF (Maker Interchange Format) for
InDesign Magazine in 2007. Search Google for "dtptools mif filter."

HTH

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from
> scratch as an InDesign document.
>
> Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that
> were faced?
>
> Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this
> publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/
> framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/
> listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

What do they hope to accomplish by doing that?

The only sane reason I know would be that you deliver only as PDF
and/or print and want to be able to tweak it to get more visually
distinctive results than you get with FrameMaker.

There's a service that will do the conversion:
http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Mikey Shine <mikeysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
> publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an 
> option, they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from 
> scratch as an InDesign document.
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Mikey,

The first question I always ask is "Why?" Is it because of InDesign's superior 
color handling and typography, and those are required for this publication? Is 
it because content providers or primary authors already have InDesign? Is it 
because IT supports Creative Cloud apps but doesn't want to support FrameMaker? 
Is it because somebody in the company thinks FrameMaker is dead? Without 
answers to questions like this, it is difficult to provide you with pros/cons.

I have done several of these conversions over the years. I have also convinced 
others to stay with FrameMaker because (based on the answers to the questions 
above) it didn't make sense to switch. I would be glad to meet with you off 
list to get more details and give you some suggestions. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-366-4017



-Original Message-
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Mikey Shine
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:23 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an option, 
they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from scratch as 
an InDesign document.

Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that were 
faced?

Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this 
publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign? 

Thanks in advance for your help!
___

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[Framers] FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Mikey Shine]

My company has informed me that they’d like to switch one of our major 
publications over from FrameMaker to InDesign. If conversion is not an option, 
they wouldn’t be opposed to rebuilding the entire publication from scratch as 
an InDesign document.

Has anyone gone through this process before? What were some hurdles that were 
faced?

Outside of that can anyone enlighten me with pros/cons for having this 
publication remain a FrameMaker document vs moving it to InDesign? 

Thanks in advance for your help!
___

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Re: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[D L Reynolds]

I’ve done A LOT of this, and in my experience there is no easy way to do it — 
although I was working with VERY complex files.

The DTP Tools product didn’t work for me, but again — the complexity of the 
files may have been too much for their product.

Didn’t try MIF2Go, so can’t comment on that.

Had my best luck doing a lot of preprocessing on the FM file so that 
conditional text, etc, could be identified later on, then exported as RTF, then 
did a bunch of post processing in InDesign. Not hard, just time consuming.

Let me know if you’d like more info.

Best wishes,

 -dr
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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[D L Reynolds]

I?ve done A LOT of this, and in my experience there is no easy way to do it ? 
although I was working with VERY complex files.

The DTP Tools product didn?t work for me, but again ? the complexity of the 
files may have been too much for their product.

Didn?t try MIF2Go, so can?t comment on that.

Had my best luck doing a lot of preprocessing on the FM file so that 
conditional text, etc, could be identified later on, then exported as RTF, then 
did a bunch of post processing in InDesign. Not hard, just time consuming.

Let me know if you?d like more info.

Best wishes,

 -dr

RE: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Reng, Dr. Winfried]

Hi,

There is an online conversion from DTP Tools:

http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

I do not know of any other converter.

Best regards

Winfried

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of VLM TechSubs
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 12:17 AM
To: Framers
Subject: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

Greetings,

Is there an easy way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using FM 
8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has requested this conversion. 
MIF2Go, perhaps?

Thanks,
Elchanan



This e-mail contains privileged and confidential information intended for the 
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take any action in respect of any information contained in it. If you have 
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Re: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Heiko Haida]

 

Hi Elchanan, 

easy way: No, only possible (but only if certain conditions are
met). 

Please read more in the Adobe forums, eg. this quite recent posting: --
http://forums.adobe.com/message/5497914 

I am using Mif filter which is quite accurate but needs some
preparation of the FM material and some reworking after conversion. 

Best regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

VLM TechSubs: 

 Greetings, 
 
 Is there an easy way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using 
 FM 8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has requested this 
 conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?
 
 Thanks, 
 
 Elchanan
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Re: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 3:16 PM, VLM TechSubs
techs...@vibrantlivingministries.org wrote:
 Is there an “easy” way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using
 FM 8 and don’t own InDesign, but now this client has requested this
 conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?
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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Reng, Dr. Winfried]

Hi,

There is an online conversion from DTP Tools:

http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

I do not know of any other converter.

Best regards

Winfried

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of VLM TechSubs
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 12:17 AM
To: Framers
Subject: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

Greetings,

Is there an "easy" way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using FM 
8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has requested this conversion. 
MIF2Go, perhaps?

Thanks,
Elchanan



This e-mail contains privileged and confidential information intended for the 
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take any action in respect of any information contained in it. If you have 
received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail 
and immediately destroy this e-mail and its attachments.
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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Heiko Haida]

Hi Elchanan, 

"easy" way: No, only "possible" (but only if certain conditions are
met). 

Please read more in the Adobe forums, eg. this quite recent posting: -->
http://forums.adobe.com/message/5497914 

I am using "Mif filter" which is quite accurate but needs some
preparation of the FM material and some reworking after conversion. 

Best regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

VLM TechSubs: 

> Greetings, 
> 
> Is there an "easy" way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using 
> FM 8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has requested this 
> conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Elchanan

-- next part --
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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[VLM TechSubs]

Greetings,

 

Is there an easy way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using FM 
8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has
requested this conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?

Thanks,

Elchanan

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Re: Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Tori Muir]

  
  
I believe Rick Quatro might have scripts to do this? 
Tori Muir
tm...@spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com

On 1/7/14 3:16 PM, VLM TechSubs wrote:

  
  
  
  
Greetings,

Is there an
easy way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign?
Using FM 8 and dont own InDesign, but now this client has
requested this conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?

Thanks,
Elchanan
  
  

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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[VLM TechSubs]

Greetings,



Is there an "easy" way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using FM 
8 and don't own InDesign, but now this client has
requested this conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?

Thanks,

Elchanan

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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Tori Muir]

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Convert from FrameMaker to InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 3:16 PM, VLM TechSubs
 wrote:
> Is there an ?easy? way to convert documents/books from FM to InDesign? Using
> FM 8 and don?t own InDesign, but now this client has requested this
> conversion. MIF2Go, perhaps?

Re: FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

I currently use FrameMaker to single-source PDF, online help (with
RoboHelp), Word (with MIF2Go), text with layout (with MIF2Go and
Word), and XHTML (with MIF2Go).

I'm pretty fed up with FrameMaker 10 but InDesign's not among the
practical alternatives. What I'd really like is a copy of FrameMaker
8.

Sure is a shame that we're stuck on this poky old Intel architecture
instead of those screaming-fast PowerPC systems. I think I still have
some of that Apple / IBM horseshit in my files.

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Graeme R Forbes
graeme.for...@colorado.edu wrote:
 Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
 promise to make all its major applications PPC/OSX native. ...
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FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
promise to make all its major applications PPC/OSX native. The grass on the 
other side is somewhat greener, especially if you're having stability issues 
with FM and resent having to break footnotes across pages manually. I run ID 
(CS4) under Snow Leopard now and previously under Tiger. In the last year the 
only crashes I've had related to third-party plug-ins. You can use ID in 
FM-style, where each doc is a bunch of body pages tied to particular master 
pages of your own design. Footnotes behave correctly. But if you rely heavily, 
as I did, on FM's x-ref abilities, you'll probably find ID's built-in ones 
inadequate (among other limitations, it can't x-ref footnote numbers!). The 
best solution to this problem is to buy DTP Tools' X-ref Pro, which equals or 
exceeds what FM can do. On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for 
ID; on the plus side, it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent cus
 tomer support.

Graeme Forbes

Sent from my iPad
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Re: FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:44 -0600 31/8/12, Graeme R Forbes wrote:

On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for ID; on the plus side, 
it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent customer support.

I also use both. Slight lack of structure support in InD, though ;-)

-- 
Steve
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FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
promise to make all its "major" applications PPC/OSX native. The grass on the 
other side is somewhat greener, especially if you're having stability issues 
with FM and resent having to break footnotes across pages manually. I run ID 
(CS4) under Snow Leopard now and previously under Tiger. In the last year the 
only crashes I've had related to third-party plug-ins. You can use ID in 
FM-style, where each doc is a bunch of body pages tied to particular master 
pages of your own design. Footnotes behave correctly. But if you rely heavily, 
as I did, on FM's x-ref abilities, you'll probably find ID's built-in ones 
inadequate (among other limitations, it can't x-ref footnote numbers!). The 
best solution to this problem is to buy DTP Tools' X-ref Pro, which equals or 
exceeds what FM can do. On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for 
ID; on the plus side, it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent customer 
support.

Graeme Forbes

Sent from my iPad

FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:44 -0600 31/8/12, Graeme R Forbes wrote:

>On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for ID; on the plus side, 
>it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent customer support.

I also use both. Slight lack of structure support in InD, though ;-)

-- 
Steve

FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Robert Lauriston]

I currently use FrameMaker to single-source PDF, online help (with
RoboHelp), Word (with MIF2Go), text with layout (with MIF2Go and
Word), and XHTML (with MIF2Go).

I'm pretty fed up with FrameMaker 10 but InDesign's not among the
practical alternatives. What I'd really like is a copy of FrameMaker
8.

Sure is a shame that we're stuck on this poky old Intel architecture
instead of those screaming-fast PowerPC systems. I think I still have
some of that Apple / IBM horseshit in my files.

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Graeme R Forbes
 wrote:
> Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
> promise to make all its "major" applications PPC/OSX native. ...

RE: FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Steve Rickaby]

At 14:39 -0500 27/2/10, Rick Quatro wrote:

I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
read-only so you can't programmatically change it.

Ah. Bummer.

By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
resolves the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible.

That's interesting. You're the expert, so I'd never try to gainsay you, but I 
thought I'd see use of './' and ../' path notation in MUF (although I've not 
looked very hard). Maybe you mean that filenames are absolute in FrameMaker 
binary files.

I am limited v-a-v FrameSccript, not just for time and lack of knowledge, but 
because my current configuration is FrameMaker on Mac. This will have to change 
soon enough, but I don't see the need to change (cost of new machine) until 
there is... well, good need.

Thanks for the other interesting material.

-- 
Steve
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Indesign VB Scriptin [was FrameMaker vs InDesign book files]

[Chris Despopoulos]

Is it true that nDesign supports VB scripting?  Is the handling of a document 
model any better than that for Word?  What I mean is, in Maker you can us the 
API to get all the text items in a paragraph, and that breaks the pgf into all 
the char format changes, all the table anchors, aframe anchors, xrefs, etc.  
Trying to get that kind of detail about your content in Word is miserabl, as 
far as I can tell.  So the question is (yes, on the surface this is off topic), 
how does Indesign expose its content to VB?  Does anybody have any experience?

And to get on topic, would it be reasonable to have a VB tool that can stuff ID 
content into Maker (and vis-versa)?

cud



  
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RE: Indesign VB Scripting [was FrameMaker vs. InDesign book files]

[David Spreadbury]

Chris,
According to the document at
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/indesign/scripting/pdfs/in
design_cs3_scripting_tutorial.pdf the answer is yes, InDesign can handle
VBScripts.

Excerpt:
The Scripts panel can run compiled or uncompiled AppleScripts (files with
the file extension .spt, .as, or .applescript), JavaScripts (files with the
file extension .js or .jsx), VBScripts (files with the extension .vbs), or
executable programs from the Scripts panel.

If you are using the CS4 version, try
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/indesign/pdfs/indesigncs4_scriptingtutorial.pdf.

HTH,

David Spreadbury
Sr. Technical Writer

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:01 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Indesign VB Scriptin [was FrameMaker vs InDesign book files]

Is it true that nDesign supports VB scripting?  Is the handling of a
document model any better than that for Word?  What I mean is, in Maker you
can us the API to get all the text items in a paragraph, and that breaks the
pgf into all the char format changes, all the table anchors, aframe anchors,
xrefs, etc.  Trying to get that kind of detail about your content in Word is
miserabl, as far as I can tell.  So the question is (yes, on the surface
this is off topic), how does Indesign expose its content to VB?  Does
anybody have any experience?

And to get on topic, would it be reasonable to have a VB tool that can stuff
ID content into Maker (and vis-versa)?

cud



  
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FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Michael Zaichenko]

I personally use File > Package... feature. It makes a duplicate of all files 
incl. the book itself and changes all links automatically. Plus you can specify 
whether you want the graphics and fonts copied as well.

Is that what you are trying to do?

Michael


> From: rick at rickquatro.com
> To: srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk
> Subject: RE: FrameMaker vs InDesign book files
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:39:50 -0500
> CC: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
> of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
> both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
> duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
> folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
> read-only so you can't programmatically change it.
> 
> By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
> stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
> "resolves" the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible. This is how
> paths to imported images and external cross-references are handled as well.
> With FrameMaker, these path properties are fully writeable, which means you
> can change them with FrameScript or an FDK client.
> 
> You can see an example of how this can be beneficial for imported graphics
> here:
> 
> http://frameautomation.com/2010/02/23/managing-imported-images-solution
> 
> A similar thing can be done for FrameMaker books, especially large books
> with complex numbering or pagination requirements. Say that you want to
> duplicate the book but use it with a set of components with different names.
> You want to use the same book because you spent a lot of time getting the
> component numbering and pagination for each set up just right. You would
> follow this procedure.
> 
> 1) Duplicate the book and put it in the new folder.
> 2) Run a script that extracts all of the book paths into a spreadsheet file.
> 3) Open the spreadsheet file and edit the paths to point to the new
> components.
> 4) Run a companion script to update the book's component paths to those
> specified in the spreadsheet.
> 
> All of the components will have the properties as originally specified in
> the original book, even though they point to different components. The
> assumption here is that the new book has the same number of components in
> the same positions as the old book. But even if there are slight
> differences, changing them by hand after you use the scripts will still be
> less work than building and configuring a new book from scratch.
> 
> This method can also be used to update a book after you move or rename its
> components.
> 
> I also have a similar script that allows you to change external
> cross-reference paths with an Excel spreadsheet.
> 
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> 585-659-8267
> rick at frameexpert.com
> 
> *** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com
> 
> 
> Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case
> it's of use to anyone who uses both apps.
> 
> When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder
> and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a
> common operation.
> 
> The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing
> folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open
> a chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not
> the corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's
> references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be
> confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is
> potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only
> way around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file
> after duplicating the book's enclosing folder.
> 
> This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had
> to sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in
> InD's help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2')
> touch on this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to
> have been given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file
> pathnames, its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's
> folder and then opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter
> files in the *duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find
> FrameMaker's approach much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the
> operation of InCopy o

FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Steve Rickaby]

At 14:39 -0500 27/2/10, Rick Quatro wrote:

>I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
>of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
>both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
>duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
>folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
>read-only so you can't programmatically change it.

Ah. Bummer.

>By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
>stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
>"resolves" the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible.

That's interesting. You're the expert, so I'd never try to gainsay you, but I 
thought I'd see use of './' and ../' path notation in MUF (although I've not 
looked very hard). Maybe you mean that filenames are absolute in FrameMaker 
binary files.

I am limited v-a-v FrameSccript, not just for time and lack of knowledge, but 
because my current configuration is FrameMaker on Mac. This will have to change 
soon enough, but I don't see the need to change (cost of new machine) until 
there is... well, good need.

Thanks for the other interesting material.

-- 
Steve

Indesign VB Scriptin [was FrameMaker vs InDesign book files]

[Chris Despopoulos]

Is it true that nDesign supports VB scripting?  Is the handling of a document 
model any better than that for Word?  What I mean is, in Maker you can us the 
API to get all the text items in a paragraph, and that breaks the pgf into all 
the char format changes, all the table anchors, aframe anchors, xrefs, etc.  
Trying to get that kind of detail about your content in Word is miserabl, as 
far as I can tell.  So the question is (yes, on the surface this is off topic), 
how does Indesign expose its content to VB?  Does anybody have any experience?

And to get on topic, would it be reasonable to have a VB tool that can stuff ID 
content into Maker (and vis-versa)?

cud

Indesign VB Scripting [was FrameMaker vs. InDesign book files]

[David Spreadbury]

Chris,
According to the document at
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/indesign/scripting/pdfs/in
design_cs3_scripting_tutorial.pdf the answer is yes, InDesign can handle
VBScripts.

Excerpt:
The Scripts panel can run compiled or uncompiled AppleScripts (files with
the file extension .spt, .as, or .applescript), JavaScripts (files with the
file extension .js or .jsx), VBScripts (files with the extension .vbs), or
executable programs from the Scripts panel.

If you are using the CS4 version, try
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/indesign/pdfs/indesigncs4_scriptingtutorial.pdf.

HTH,

David Spreadbury
Sr. Technical Writer

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:01 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Indesign VB Scriptin [was FrameMaker vs InDesign book files]

Is it true that nDesign supports VB scripting?  Is the handling of a
document model any better than that for Word?  What I mean is, in Maker you
can us the API to get all the text items in a paragraph, and that breaks the
pgf into all the char format changes, all the table anchors, aframe anchors,
xrefs, etc.  Trying to get that kind of detail about your content in Word is
miserabl, as far as I can tell.  So the question is (yes, on the surface
this is off topic), how does Indesign expose its content to VB?  Does
anybody have any experience?

And to get on topic, would it be reasonable to have a VB tool that can stuff
ID content into Maker (and vis-versa)?

cud




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FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Steve Rickaby]

Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case it's 
of use to anyone who uses both apps.

When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder 
and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a 
common operation.

The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing 
folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open a 
chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not the 
corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's 
references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be 
confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is 
potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only way 
around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file after 
duplicating the book's enclosing folder.

This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had to 
sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in InD's 
help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2') touch on 
this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to have been 
given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file pathnames, 
its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's folder and then 
opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter files in the 
*duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find FrameMaker's approach 
much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the operation of InCopy or some 
other part of the Adobe stable.

Something to watch out for. I guess I should be posting this to an InD group, 
but I'm not on any.

-- 
Steve
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RE: FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Steve,

I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
read-only so you can't programmatically change it.

By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
resolves the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible. This is how
paths to imported images and external cross-references are handled as well.
With FrameMaker, these path properties are fully writeable, which means you
can change them with FrameScript or an FDK client.

You can see an example of how this can be beneficial for imported graphics
here:

http://frameautomation.com/2010/02/23/managing-imported-images-solution

A similar thing can be done for FrameMaker books, especially large books
with complex numbering or pagination requirements. Say that you want to
duplicate the book but use it with a set of components with different names.
You want to use the same book because you spent a lot of time getting the
component numbering and pagination for each set up just right. You would
follow this procedure.

1) Duplicate the book and put it in the new folder.
2) Run a script that extracts all of the book paths into a spreadsheet file.
3) Open the spreadsheet file and edit the paths to point to the new
components.
4) Run a companion script to update the book's component paths to those
specified in the spreadsheet.

All of the components will have the properties as originally specified in
the original book, even though they point to different components. The
assumption here is that the new book has the same number of components in
the same positions as the old book. But even if there are slight
differences, changing them by hand after you use the scripts will still be
less work than building and configuring a new book from scratch.

This method can also be used to update a book after you move or rename its
components.

I also have a similar script that allows you to change external
cross-reference paths with an Excel spreadsheet.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-659-8267
r...@frameexpert.com

*** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com


Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case
it's of use to anyone who uses both apps.

When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder
and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a
common operation.

The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing
folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open
a chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not
the corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's
references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be
confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is
potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only
way around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file
after duplicating the book's enclosing folder.

This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had
to sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in
InD's help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2')
touch on this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to
have been given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file
pathnames, its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's
folder and then opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter
files in the *duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find
FrameMaker's approach much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the
operation of InCopy or some other part of the Adobe stable.

Something to watch out for. I guess I should be posting this to an InD
group, but I'm not on any.

-- 
Steve


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RE: FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Michael Zaichenko]

I personally use File  Package... feature. It makes a duplicate of all files 
incl. the book itself and changes all links automatically. Plus you can specify 
whether you want the graphics and fonts copied as well.

Is that what you are trying to do?

Michael


 From: r...@rickquatro.com
 To: srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk
 Subject: RE: FrameMaker vs InDesign book files
 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:39:50 -0500
 CC: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 
 Hi Steve,
 
 I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
 of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
 both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
 duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
 folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
 read-only so you can't programmatically change it.
 
 By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
 stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
 resolves the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible. This is how
 paths to imported images and external cross-references are handled as well.
 With FrameMaker, these path properties are fully writeable, which means you
 can change them with FrameScript or an FDK client.
 
 You can see an example of how this can be beneficial for imported graphics
 here:
 
 http://frameautomation.com/2010/02/23/managing-imported-images-solution
 
 A similar thing can be done for FrameMaker books, especially large books
 with complex numbering or pagination requirements. Say that you want to
 duplicate the book but use it with a set of components with different names.
 You want to use the same book because you spent a lot of time getting the
 component numbering and pagination for each set up just right. You would
 follow this procedure.
 
 1) Duplicate the book and put it in the new folder.
 2) Run a script that extracts all of the book paths into a spreadsheet file.
 3) Open the spreadsheet file and edit the paths to point to the new
 components.
 4) Run a companion script to update the book's component paths to those
 specified in the spreadsheet.
 
 All of the components will have the properties as originally specified in
 the original book, even though they point to different components. The
 assumption here is that the new book has the same number of components in
 the same positions as the old book. But even if there are slight
 differences, changing them by hand after you use the scripts will still be
 less work than building and configuring a new book from scratch.
 
 This method can also be used to update a book after you move or rename its
 components.
 
 I also have a similar script that allows you to change external
 cross-reference paths with an Excel spreadsheet.
 
 Rick Quatro
 Carmen Publishing Inc.
 585-659-8267
 r...@frameexpert.com
 
 *** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com
 
 
 Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case
 it's of use to anyone who uses both apps.
 
 When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder
 and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a
 common operation.
 
 The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing
 folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open
 a chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not
 the corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's
 references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be
 confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is
 potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only
 way around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file
 after duplicating the book's enclosing folder.
 
 This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had
 to sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in
 InD's help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2')
 touch on this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to
 have been given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file
 pathnames, its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's
 folder and then opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter
 files in the *duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find
 FrameMaker's approach much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the
 operation of InCopy or some other part of the Adobe stable.
 
 Something to watch out for. I guess I should be posting this to an InD
 group, but I'm not on any.
 
 -- 
 Steve
 
 
 ___
 
 
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 framers

FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Steve Rickaby]

Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case it's 
of use to anyone who uses both apps.

When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder 
and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a 
common operation.

The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing 
folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open a 
chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not the 
corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's 
references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be 
confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is 
potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only way 
around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file after 
duplicating the book's enclosing folder.

This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had to 
sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in InD's 
help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2') touch on 
this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to have been 
given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file pathnames, 
its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's folder and then 
opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter files in the 
*duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find FrameMaker's approach 
much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the operation of InCopy or some 
other part of the Adobe stable.

Something to watch out for. I guess I should be posting this to an InD group, 
but I'm not on any.

-- 
Steve

FrameMaker vs InDesign book files

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Steve,

I thought maybe scripting could come to the rescue, since InDesign has a lot
of scripting choices (AppleScript on Mac, VBScript on PC, JavaScript on
both). My thought was to write a script that would loop through the
duplicated book's files and point them to the files in the duplicated
folder. Unfortunately, the fullName property for each book component is
read-only so you can't programmatically change it.

By the way, the paths to each component in a FrameMaker book are actually
stored internally as absolute, but when you open the book, FrameMaker
"resolves" the paths, and treats them as relative, if possible. This is how
paths to imported images and external cross-references are handled as well.
With FrameMaker, these path properties are fully writeable, which means you
can change them with FrameScript or an FDK client.

You can see an example of how this can be beneficial for imported graphics
here:

http://frameautomation.com/2010/02/23/managing-imported-images-solution

A similar thing can be done for FrameMaker books, especially large books
with complex numbering or pagination requirements. Say that you want to
duplicate the book but use it with a set of components with different names.
You want to use the same book because you spent a lot of time getting the
component numbering and pagination for each set up just right. You would
follow this procedure.

1) Duplicate the book and put it in the new folder.
2) Run a script that extracts all of the book paths into a spreadsheet file.
3) Open the spreadsheet file and edit the paths to point to the new
components.
4) Run a companion script to update the book's component paths to those
specified in the spreadsheet.

All of the components will have the properties as originally specified in
the original book, even though they point to different components. The
assumption here is that the new book has the same number of components in
the same positions as the old book. But even if there are slight
differences, changing them by hand after you use the scripts will still be
less work than building and configuring a new book from scratch.

This method can also be used to update a book after you move or rename its
components.

I also have a similar script that allows you to change external
cross-reference paths with an Excel spreadsheet.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-659-8267
rick at frameexpert.com

*** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com


Here is an issue that just caught me out, so I'm posting it here in case
it's of use to anyone who uses both apps.

When versioning books in FrameMaker, I duplicate the entire enclosing folder
and then create an alias to the book file in the copied folder. This is a
common operation.

The alias is a red herring here, but when you duplicate a book's enclosing
folder in InDesign, open the book file in the duplicate and from there open
a chapter file in the book, InD opens the *original* chapter file and not
the corresponding chapter file in the duplicated book. This is because InD's
references to files in a book are absolute and not relative: this can be
confirmed by hovering over the chapter name in the book file. This is
potentially very confusing for people who use both applications. The only
way around it in InD that I can see is to delete and recreate the book file
after duplicating the book's enclosing folder.

This has just landed me with a bit of a version control headache that I had
to sort out by hand. There's nothing about book versioning that I can see in
InD's help (CS3), and although Kvern and Blattner ('Real World InDesign 2')
touch on this in relation to individual chapter files, no thought seems to
have been given to versioning entire books. As FrameMaker uses relative file
pathnames, its operation is completely different: duplicating a book's
folder and then opening the book file in the duplicate accesses the chapter
files in the *duplicate* also, as most folks here will know. I find
FrameMaker's approach much more logical, but maybe InD is bound by the
operation of InCopy or some other part of the Adobe stable.

Something to watch out for. I guess I should be posting this to an InD
group, but I'm not on any.

-- 
Steve

Re: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[mulholland4]

Hi,
Thanks for the info, I'll check out the DTP tools conversion and see what
it's like, i'll need to negotiate the purchase of some credits with the
controller of purse strings here.
Thanks
Mulholland

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Peter Gold pe...@knowhowpro.com wrote:

 One more thing (OK, a couple more)

 Now that I'm back on my Windows machine where I can use FrameMaker 8,
 I tried my own suggestions using my rusty and trusty MS Word 97, and
 learned a few things. Perhaps newer Word releases can understand more
 of the information that FrameMaker puts into the RTF, if in fact there
 is more. (Anyone who feels like testing this with newer Word releases
 can request my test file.)

 * There's no Save As  MS Word in FM 7 or FM8, only RTF. I don't have
 earlier installed FM, just the faint memory (from FM7 on Mac) of being
 able to save as Word. However, saving as RTF and placing the RTF file
 in ID retains the FM paragraph and character format names, and many of
 FM's paragraph and character font properties, and some typographic and
 composition properties - like leading, indents, tab stops, alignment,
 hyphenation, space before and after, and even a valiant effort at
 frame above and below paragraphs. But missing are FrameMaker's unique
 paragraph pagination properties like run-in, across columns, and side
 headings, and FM's advanced paragraph property that modifies table
 cell margins.

 * Opening the RTF file in Word displays bullets and auto-numbers as
 question marks in correctly-tagged paragraphs in main text, but the
 auto-number format codes (like C:Chapter $chapnum n+\t) are lost.

 * Cross-references are partially converted to text, so you can at
 least have a fragment of the referenced content to search for.

 * Index markers are broken and leave messes in the form of {xe-???}.
 The number of question marks varies, but you can search for the marker
 locations, create ID index entries there, and delete the broken
 markers.

 * Footnote references (the number in main text) and footnote content
 are retained.

 * Table appearance is preserved, but table format names are lost.
 Paragraph format names in table cells are retained.

 This may be more information than you (or anyone sane) needs. I'm not
 not-sane, though I am writing a book on ID for FM users making the
 switch (maybe THIS is not sane :) ) and I'd have had to do this
 research anyway, sooner or later. I didn't get to this area of detail
 in my review of the DTP Tools plug-in in the October/November 2007
 issue of InDesign Magazine, because it's not central to evaluating the
 plug-in.

 The upshot is this: DTP Tools' MIF Filter plug-in for ID is the most
 efficient conversion path. For small amounts of content and
 formatting, you can save as RTF if it serves your needs, or you can
 copy from a conversion using the trial plug-in, and paste into a new
 ID document to save it. Otherwise, buy a ticket for some page credits.

 HTH

 Regards,

 Peter Gold
 KnowHow ProServices

  On 12/12/08, mulholland4 mulholla...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi,
   I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering
 if
   there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from
 my
   Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be
 radically
   different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse
 content
   from my Frame docs.
 
   Thanks
Mulholland

___


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Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[mulholland4]

Hi,
Thanks for the info, I'll check out the DTP tools conversion and see what
it's like, i'll need to negotiate the purchase of some credits with the
controller of purse strings here.
Thanks
Mulholland

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Peter Gold  wrote:

> One more thing (OK, a couple more)
>
> Now that I'm back on my Windows machine where I can use FrameMaker 8,
> I tried my own suggestions using my rusty and trusty MS Word 97, and
> learned a few things. Perhaps newer Word releases can understand more
> of the information that FrameMaker puts into the RTF, if in fact there
> is more. (Anyone who feels like testing this with newer Word releases
> can request my test file.)
>
> * There's no Save As > MS Word in FM 7 or FM8, only RTF. I don't have
> earlier installed FM, just the faint memory (from FM7 on Mac) of being
> able to save as Word. However, saving as RTF and placing the RTF file
> in ID retains the FM paragraph and character format names, and many of
> FM's paragraph and character font properties, and some typographic and
> composition properties - like leading, indents, tab stops, alignment,
> hyphenation, space before and after, and even a valiant effort at
> frame above and below paragraphs. But missing are FrameMaker's unique
> paragraph pagination properties like run-in, across columns, and side
> headings, and FM's advanced paragraph property that modifies table
> cell margins.
>
> * Opening the RTF file in Word displays bullets and auto-numbers as
> question marks in correctly-tagged paragraphs in main text, but the
> auto-number format codes (like C:Chapter <$chapnum> \t) are lost.
>
> * Cross-references are partially converted to text, so you can at
> least have a fragment of the referenced content to search for.
>
> * Index markers are broken and leave messes in the form of {xe-"???"}.
> The number of question marks varies, but you can search for the marker
> locations, create ID index entries there, and delete the broken
> markers.
>
> * Footnote references (the number in main text) and footnote content
> are retained.
>
> * Table appearance is preserved, but table format names are lost.
> Paragraph format names in table cells are retained.
>
> This may be more information than you (or anyone sane) needs. I'm not
> not-sane, though I am writing a book on ID for FM users making the
> switch (maybe THIS is not sane :) ) and I'd have had to do this
> research anyway, sooner or later. I didn't get to this area of detail
> in my review of the DTP Tools plug-in in the October/November 2007
> issue of InDesign Magazine, because it's not central to evaluating the
> plug-in.
>
> The upshot is this: DTP Tools' MIF Filter plug-in for ID is the most
> efficient conversion path. For small amounts of content and
> formatting, you can save as RTF if it serves your needs, or you can
> copy from a conversion using the trial plug-in, and paste into a new
> ID document to save it. Otherwise, buy a ticket for some page credits.
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Gold
> KnowHow ProServices
>
> > On 12/12/08, mulholland4  wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>  I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering
> if
> >>  there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from
> my
> >>  Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be
> radically
> >>  different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse
> content
> >>  from my Frame docs.
> >>
> >>  Thanks
> >>   Mulholland
>

Re: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Peter Gold]

One more thing (OK, a couple more)

Now that I'm back on my Windows machine where I can use FrameMaker 8,
I tried my own suggestions using my rusty and trusty MS Word 97, and
learned a few things. Perhaps newer Word releases can understand more
of the information that FrameMaker puts into the RTF, if in fact there
is more. (Anyone who feels like testing this with newer Word releases
can request my test file.)

* There's no Save As  MS Word in FM 7 or FM8, only RTF. I don't have
earlier installed FM, just the faint memory (from FM7 on Mac) of being
able to save as Word. However, saving as RTF and placing the RTF file
in ID retains the FM paragraph and character format names, and many of
FM's paragraph and character font properties, and some typographic and
composition properties - like leading, indents, tab stops, alignment,
hyphenation, space before and after, and even a valiant effort at
frame above and below paragraphs. But missing are FrameMaker's unique
paragraph pagination properties like run-in, across columns, and side
headings, and FM's advanced paragraph property that modifies table
cell margins.

* Opening the RTF file in Word displays bullets and auto-numbers as
question marks in correctly-tagged paragraphs in main text, but the
auto-number format codes (like C:Chapter $chapnum n+\t) are lost.

* Cross-references are partially converted to text, so you can at
least have a fragment of the referenced content to search for.

* Index markers are broken and leave messes in the form of {xe-???}.
The number of question marks varies, but you can search for the marker
locations, create ID index entries there, and delete the broken
markers.

* Footnote references (the number in main text) and footnote content
are retained.

* Table appearance is preserved, but table format names are lost.
Paragraph format names in table cells are retained.

This may be more information than you (or anyone sane) needs. I'm not
not-sane, though I am writing a book on ID for FM users making the
switch (maybe THIS is not sane :) ) and I'd have had to do this
research anyway, sooner or later. I didn't get to this area of detail
in my review of the DTP Tools plug-in in the October/November 2007
issue of InDesign Magazine, because it's not central to evaluating the
plug-in.

The upshot is this: DTP Tools' MIF Filter plug-in for ID is the most
efficient conversion path. For small amounts of content and
formatting, you can save as RTF if it serves your needs, or you can
copy from a conversion using the trial plug-in, and paste into a new
ID document to save it. Otherwise, buy a ticket for some page credits.

HTH

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

 On 12/12/08, mulholland4 mulholla...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
  I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
  there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
  Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
  different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
  from my Frame docs.

  Thanks
   Mulholland
___


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Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
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Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Peter Gold]

One more thing (OK, a couple more)

Now that I'm back on my Windows machine where I can use FrameMaker 8,
I tried my own suggestions using my rusty and trusty MS Word 97, and
learned a few things. Perhaps newer Word releases can understand more
of the information that FrameMaker puts into the RTF, if in fact there
is more. (Anyone who feels like testing this with newer Word releases
can request my test file.)

* There's no Save As > MS Word in FM 7 or FM8, only RTF. I don't have
earlier installed FM, just the faint memory (from FM7 on Mac) of being
able to save as Word. However, saving as RTF and placing the RTF file
in ID retains the FM paragraph and character format names, and many of
FM's paragraph and character font properties, and some typographic and
composition properties - like leading, indents, tab stops, alignment,
hyphenation, space before and after, and even a valiant effort at
frame above and below paragraphs. But missing are FrameMaker's unique
paragraph pagination properties like run-in, across columns, and side
headings, and FM's advanced paragraph property that modifies table
cell margins.

* Opening the RTF file in Word displays bullets and auto-numbers as
question marks in correctly-tagged paragraphs in main text, but the
auto-number format codes (like C:Chapter <$chapnum> \t) are lost.

* Cross-references are partially converted to text, so you can at
least have a fragment of the referenced content to search for.

* Index markers are broken and leave messes in the form of {xe-"???"}.
The number of question marks varies, but you can search for the marker
locations, create ID index entries there, and delete the broken
markers.

* Footnote references (the number in main text) and footnote content
are retained.

* Table appearance is preserved, but table format names are lost.
Paragraph format names in table cells are retained.

This may be more information than you (or anyone sane) needs. I'm not
not-sane, though I am writing a book on ID for FM users making the
switch (maybe THIS is not sane :) ) and I'd have had to do this
research anyway, sooner or later. I didn't get to this area of detail
in my review of the DTP Tools plug-in in the October/November 2007
issue of InDesign Magazine, because it's not central to evaluating the
plug-in.

The upshot is this: DTP Tools' MIF Filter plug-in for ID is the most
efficient conversion path. For small amounts of content and
formatting, you can save as RTF if it serves your needs, or you can
copy from a conversion using the trial plug-in, and paste into a new
ID document to save it. Otherwise, buy a ticket for some page credits.

HTH

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

> On 12/12/08, mulholland4  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
>>  there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
>>  Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
>>  different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
>>  from my Frame docs.
>>
>>  Thanks
>>   Mulholland

Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[mulholland4]

Hi,
I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
from my Frame docs.

Thanks
 Mulholland
___


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RE: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Matt Sullivan]

Peter Gold was kind enough to suggest
MIF Filter for Adobe InDesign from DTPTools after he'd done a review of the
product. See for yourself at
http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
Considering what I got, the cost (per page) was pretty extraordinary.

-Matt


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of mulholland4
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:29 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

Hi,
I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
from my Frame docs.

Thanks
 Mulholland
___


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Re: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Mike Wickham]

 I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
 there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
 Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
 different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
 from my Frame docs.

Here's something that might work:

MIF Filter for Adobe InDesign
http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

I've never used it, so can't comment. And it has a weird licensing model 
that charges based on the number of pages you convert. If you're only 
converting a template, it might be cheap.

Mike Wickham


___


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Re: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Peter Gold]

On 12/12/08, mulholland4 mulholla...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
  I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
  there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
  Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
  different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
  from my Frame docs.

  Thanks
   Mulholland
  ___



You can save the FM file as MS Word and use File  Place in ID to
import the Word file. The formats should be retained. There's a good
chance that cross-references and their formats will survive, too. Not
sure about table formats. Index markers should survive.

If you need to convert or recreate any volume of FM documents in ID,
look into the MIF Filter at dtptools.com that's been mentioned earlier
in this thread. It does a good job of translating MIF files into ID.
There's a free trial. Although it doesn't save until you buy some page
credits, you should be able to copy and paste pieces of the converted
file that contain the FM formats that were converted to ID styles into
a new file.

HTH

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[mulholland4]

Hi,
I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
from my Frame docs.

Thanks
 Mulholland

Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Matt Sullivan]

Peter Gold was kind enough to suggest
MIF Filter for Adobe InDesign from DTPTools after he'd done a review of the
product. See for yourself at
http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid
Considering what I got, the cost (per page) was pretty extraordinary.

-Matt


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of mulholland4
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:29 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

Hi,
I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
from my Frame docs.

Thanks
 Mulholland
___


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Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Mike Wickham]

> I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
> there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
> Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
> different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
> from my Frame docs.

Here's something that might work:

MIF Filter for Adobe InDesign
http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid

I've never used it, so can't comment. And it has a weird licensing model 
that charges based on the number of pages you convert. If you're only 
converting a template, it might be cheap.

Mike Wickham

Paragraph and Character styles in FrameMaker and InDesign

[Peter Gold]

On 12/12/08, mulholland4  wrote:
> Hi,
>  I am going to be using InDesign to produce some docs and was wondering if
>  there is any way of importing the Paragraph and Character styles from my
>  Framemaker 8 docs into InDesign CS4? Although my layout will be radically
>  different in the new docs, it would be useful to be able to reuse content
>  from my Frame docs.
>
>  Thanks
>   Mulholland
>  ___
>


You can save the FM file as MS Word and use File > Place in ID to
import the Word file. The formats should be retained. There's a good
chance that cross-references and their formats will survive, too. Not
sure about table formats. Index markers should survive.

If you need to convert or recreate any volume of FM documents in ID,
look into the MIF Filter at dtptools.com that's been mentioned earlier
in this thread. It does a good job of translating MIF files into ID.
There's a free trial. Although it doesn't save until you buy some page
credits, you should be able to copy and paste pieces of the converted
file that contain the FM formats that were converted to ID styles into
a new file.

HTH

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Re: InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Paul Findon]

Hi Peter,

 This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the power
 click brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
 where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
 to overflowing, and then...

 * You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
 typing is overset, as typographers call it, indicated by a red +
 in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
 (not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
 tool, aka Selection tool.)

With InDesign CS2, my workaround for this is as follows:

1) Create a new doc with Master Text Frame selected.

2) Command-Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame on the first page.

3) Fill the first page with placeholder text, select it all, and copy.

4) Insert roughly how many pages you think you'll need (50, 100, 300,  
whatever).

5) Paste the placeholder text for as many pages as you inserted plus  
one. If you inserted 50 pages, paste 51 times.

6) With the Selection tool, click the red Overset icon on the first  
page.

7) Hold down the Shift key and click on the frame on page 2.

The text frames on all of the pages will link together and fill with  
placeholder text, which can then be deleted ready for some real text.

Paul
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InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Paul Findon]

Hi Peter,

> This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the "power
> click" brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
> where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
> to overflowing, and then...
>
> * You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
> typing is "overset," as typographers call it, indicated by a red "+"
> in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
> (not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
> tool, aka Selection tool.)

With InDesign CS2, my workaround for this is as follows:

1) Create a new doc with Master Text Frame selected.

2) Command-Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame on the first page.

3) Fill the first page with placeholder text, select it all, and copy.

4) Insert roughly how many pages you think you'll need (50, 100, 300,  
whatever).

5) Paste the placeholder text for as many pages as you inserted plus  
one. If you inserted 50 pages, paste 51 times.

6) With the Selection tool, click the red Overset icon on the first  
page.

7) Hold down the Shift key and click on the frame on page 2.

The text frames on all of the pages will link together and fill with  
placeholder text, which can then be deleted ready for some real text.

Paul

InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Peter Gold]

This is really a new topic.

 On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
 I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
 is the cursor for text?

and

 On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Paul Findon [EMAIL PROTECTED] responded:


 On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click
 OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
 Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.


This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the power
click brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
to overflowing, and then...

* You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
typing is overset, as typographers call it, indicated by a red +
in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
(not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
tool, aka Selection tool.)

* In FM, it's called overflow, indicated by a horizontal black line
at the bottom of the frame, if View  Borders is enabled. Because FM
documents typically are designed with auto-connect properties that
cause filled main text frames (like Flow A) to create new text frames
on new pages, it's uncommon to overflow main text flow frames
unintentionally. Main text frames on disconnected FM pages, or those
drawn on any body pages with the text frame tool, do overflow, rather
than connecting automatically to new frames on new pages. You can
connect disconnected text frames manually, using Format  Customize
Layout  Connect Text Frames, to thread text flows across frames and
pages. This is similar to the method of flowing stories across frames
and pages in most layout programs.

* In InDesign earlier than CS4, to add content across pages by typing,
you'd need to manually add pages and connect (thread) the text
frames manually.

* You can work in the Story Editor window in all InDesign versions,
instead of a layout window, and enter text without concern about
getting stuck when a text frame becomes overset. The Story Editor
indicates where overset begins, but it doesn't stop you from adding
new content.

* In CS4, there's a new feature, Auto Text Reflow, that makes ID work
as you're expecting, based on your experience in FrameMaker, or other
non-layout-centric DTP tools and word-processors.

* ID and FM can do many of the same things, but they often work
differently, as in this example. If you're giving ID a good workout
and get stuck, these InDesign-specific resources will be helpful:

* The Adobe User-to-User InDesign Macintosh and Windows forums (often
the postings aren't platform-specific, so you need to read both to see
all questions and answers), and the Lassosoft InDesign list. Adobe.com
offers a lot of video tutorials and other resources on all the Adobe
products.

* Don't overlook the Help

* Visit the third-party InDesign book descriptions at Amazon.com. Two
very popular dedicated InDesign titles are Adobe InDesign CS3 Visual
Quick Start, by Sandee Cohen, and Real World InDesign CS3, by Olav
Kvern and David Blatner.

* These ID-specific resources don't address FM-to-ID issues, so if you
find that applying the FrameMaker side of your brain InDesign causes
headaches, post your questions here.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

I'm sorry to report that after doing the procedure you listed below, 
I still couldn't enter text without drawing a text box within the 
margins. This is exactly why it isn't more than a page layout 
program. It fails to provide me with a default page that can be used 
to write upon without having to define the text frame.

It follows the paste-up page paradigm exactly. Which says to me that 
this program is a paste-up program not a replacement for FrameMaker. 
It is a killer when placed against Quark Xpress, which behaves in the 
same manner. And even with all the plug-ins for Xpress, it isn't a 
serious contender to replace FrameMaker. Neither is InDesign.

Scott


At 3:38 PM +0100 9/25/08, Paul Findon wrote:
On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
  I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
  is the cursor for text?

On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click 
OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.

Paul
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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:

> Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
> I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
> is the cursor for text?

On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click  
OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command- 
Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.

Paul

InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Peter Gold]

This is really a new topic.

>> On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:
>
>> Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
>> I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
>> is the cursor for text?

and

> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Paul Findon  
> responded:

>
> On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click
> OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
> Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.


This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the "power
click" brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
to overflowing, and then...

* You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
typing is "overset," as typographers call it, indicated by a red "+"
in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
(not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
tool, aka Selection tool.)

* In FM, it's called "overflow," indicated by a horizontal black line
at the bottom of the frame, if View > Borders is enabled. Because FM
documents typically are designed with auto-connect properties that
cause filled main text frames (like Flow A) to create new text frames
on new pages, it's uncommon to overflow main text flow frames
unintentionally. Main text frames on disconnected FM pages, or those
drawn on any body pages with the text frame tool, do overflow, rather
than connecting automatically to new frames on new pages. You can
connect disconnected text frames manually, using Format > Customize
Layout > Connect Text Frames, to thread text flows across frames and
pages. This is similar to the method of flowing stories across frames
and pages in most layout programs.

* In InDesign earlier than CS4, to add content across pages by typing,
you'd need to manually add pages and connect ("thread") the text
frames manually.

* You can work in the Story Editor window in all InDesign versions,
instead of a layout window, and enter text without concern about
getting stuck when a text frame becomes overset. The Story Editor
indicates where overset begins, but it doesn't stop you from adding
new content.

* In CS4, there's a new feature, Auto Text Reflow, that makes ID work
as you're expecting, based on your experience in FrameMaker, or other
non-layout-centric DTP tools and word-processors.

* ID and FM can do many of the same things, but they often work
differently, as in this example. If you're giving ID a good workout
and get stuck, these InDesign-specific resources will be helpful:

* The Adobe User-to-User InDesign Macintosh and Windows forums (often
the postings aren't platform-specific, so you need to read both to see
all questions and answers), and the Lassosoft InDesign list. Adobe.com
offers a lot of video tutorials and other resources on all the Adobe
products.

* Don't overlook the Help

* Visit the third-party InDesign book descriptions at Amazon.com. Two
very popular dedicated InDesign titles are "Adobe InDesign CS3 Visual
Quick Start," by Sandee Cohen, and "Real World InDesign CS3," by Olav
Kvern and David Blatner.

* These ID-specific resources don't address FM-to-ID issues, so if you
find that applying the FrameMaker side of your brain InDesign causes
headaches, post your questions here.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

I'm sorry to report that after doing the procedure you listed below, 
I still couldn't enter text without drawing a text box within the 
margins. This is exactly why it isn't more than a page layout 
program. It fails to provide me with a default page that can be used 
to write upon without having to define the text frame.

It follows the paste-up page paradigm exactly. Which says to me that 
this program is a paste-up program not a replacement for FrameMaker. 
It is a killer when placed against Quark Xpress, which behaves in the 
same manner. And even with all the plug-ins for Xpress, it isn't a 
serious contender to replace FrameMaker. Neither is InDesign.

Scott


At 3:38 PM +0100 9/25/08, Paul Findon wrote:
>On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:
>
>>  Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
>>  I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
>>  is the cursor for text?
>
>On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click 
>OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
>Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.
>
>Paul

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

Hi Sarah,

Not sure how strong it will be, but ID CS4 certainly appears to offer  
the tools that will allow some unstructured FM users to make the  
switch. Incidentally, it looks like Apple may have finally switched  
to InDesign for its user guides, which until now have been made with  
Mac FM6. The iPhone and iPod touch user guides both appear to have  
been made with InDesign CS3.

Another new ID feature relevant to FM users is Smart Text Reflow. ID  
can now automatically add or delete pages as text expands or shrinks.

FWIW:


Alas, one FM feature that's still missing (perhaps for ID CS5) is the  
ability to control whether paragraphs stay in column or across all  
columns at the paragraph level. A colleague recently user ID to make  
a manual with a layout that uses this FM feature heavily. She said it  
seemed to take twice as long as it did with FM, manually breaking and  
linking text frames on every page, and just when she thought the job  
was finished, a series of edits meant that many of her carefully  
positioned text frames had to be manually adjusted again and again.

Paul

On 23 Sep 2008, at 20:22, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:

> Hi framers,
>
> I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your  
> thoughts:
>
> http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4- 
> hannibal.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Sarah
> -- 
> ## 
> ##
> Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services,  
> Inc.
> okeefe at scriptorium.comwww.scriptorium.com
> Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as pfindon at infopage.net.
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Sarah O'Keefe]

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
-- 

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

Sarah,

Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where 
I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where 
is the cursor for text?

It still feels like a page layout program, it still acts like a page 
layout program, it still wants you to obsess over page layout rather 
than content creation. As far as I've been able to see, the real 
difference in the two programs is that the paradigm for the layout 
and tools is based upon page layout and graphics programs rather than 
text creation. While it may be true that I would be able to function 
in that environment, the corresponding argument that the tools 
require a lot of minutiae font fiddling and placement fiddling make 
me feel like I'd be wasting more time.

Whenever I go into that program I feel like I've opened up Quark Express.

Scott


At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

Hi Sarah,

Not sure how strong it will be, but ID CS4 certainly appears to offer  
the tools that will allow some unstructured FM users to make the  
switch. Incidentally, it looks like Apple may have finally switched  
to InDesign for its user guides, which until now have been made with  
Mac FM6. The iPhone and iPod touch user guides both appear to have  
been made with InDesign CS3.

Another new ID feature relevant to FM users is Smart Text Reflow. ID  
can now automatically add or delete pages as text expands or shrinks.

FWIW:
http://indesignsecrets.com/whats-new-in-indesign-cs4.php

Alas, one FM feature that's still missing (perhaps for ID CS5) is the  
ability to control whether paragraphs stay in column or across all  
columns at the paragraph level. A colleague recently user ID to make  
a manual with a layout that uses this FM feature heavily. She said it  
seemed to take twice as long as it did with FM, manually breaking and  
linking text frames on every page, and just when she thought the job  
was finished, a series of edits meant that many of her carefully  
positioned text frames had to be manually adjusted again and again.

Paul

On 23 Sep 2008, at 20:22, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:

 Hi framers,

 I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your  
 thoughts:

 http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4- 
 hannibal.html

 Regards,

 Sarah
 -- 
 ## 
 ##
 Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services,  
 Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.scriptorium.com
 Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
 ___


 You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

Sarah,

As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically 
add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an 
automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to 
enter text, it's a no-go.

Even Adobe compares it against Xpress, and NOT FrameMaker. The bells 
and whistles still don't make it a useable tool for long complex 
documents.

If I want to do a magazine layout, or a brochure, then InDesign is at 
the top of my list. But I can't see using it for anything else.

Scott

At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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RE: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[John Sgammato]

I think it is a good view of what's happening. 
For a long time I have expected FM and INDD to come together, until only
one hybrid remains with the InDesign name, or some other name that is
not FrameMaker. I am not emotional about it, as long as my workflow is
not completely upended. 
I am a lone writer and I manage a lot of docs with no backup. I cannot
afford a long learning curve. I use INDD for a few things, so I am more
than familiar with it, but I prefer FrameMaker. 

john 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarah O'Keefe
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:24 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sarah,

 As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically
 add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an
 automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to
 enter text, it's a no-go.

Here's the deal:

Smart Text Reflow is one of the smaller new features in ID CS4. It's
a preference you need to set, and it's got some options. It adds pages
as you type, and deletes empty ones when you delete content from them,
which isn't often a designer's need.

ID has always had auto-flow for placed content (like File  Import 
File in FM). It creates pages as it needs them. You'll need to read
the short passage in Help, when ID CS4 is released.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)

...UNTIL NOW..., as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.

...BUT, IN A WORLD... where disclosure can now be thrown to the
winds, I'll add a few comments.

ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
amount.

ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
(real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
ability.)

FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.

Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
verify. Don't assume.

Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:

 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM 8
 * No size matters inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
containers.

Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
multiple entries in one marker like FM's : technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
entries from a partial heading

There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.

The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
frame above/below, table-cell properties.

One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to square
one. ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
crash, it can restore almost every last one.

If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.

FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

It's still not ready for prime time. At least not for technical documentation.

It's still an Xpress style layout program for magazines and brochures, not long 
documents. The paradigm of it's tools and how you go about things are based 
upon the paste up board of a graphic designer. Don't tell me how great 
it is with it's add ons, its work flow isn't designed for what technical 
documentation requires. 

Scott

On Tue 08/09/23 16:59 , Peter Gold  sent:
 Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)
 
 ...UNTIL NOW..., as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
 under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.
 
 ...BUT, IN A WORLD... where disclosure can now be thrown to the
 winds, I'll add a few comments.
 
 ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
 set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
 variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
 styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
 specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
 content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
 amount.
 
 ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
 authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
 (real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
 along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
 include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
 number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
 style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
 repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
 ability.)
 
 FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
 Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
 interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.
 
 Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
 verify. Don't assume.
 
 Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:
 
 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
 and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM
 8* No size matters inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
 space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
 applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
 more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
 need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
 ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
 containers.
 
 Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
 complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
 of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
 multiple entries in one marker like FM's : technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
 entries from a partial heading
 
 There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
 files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
 content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
 InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
 or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
 to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.
 
 The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
 comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
 formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
 settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
 frame above/below, table-cell properties.
 
 One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
 UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
 actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to square
 one. ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
 crash, it can restore almost every last one.
 
 If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
 parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
 or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
 compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
 book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.
 
 FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
 and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.
 
 Regards,
 
 Peter Gold
 KnowHow ProServices
 ___
 
 
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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Sarah O'Keefe]

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
-- 

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
okeefe at scriptorium.com  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

Sarah,

Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where 
I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where 
is the cursor for text?

It still feels like a page layout program, it still acts like a page 
layout program, it still wants you to obsess over page layout rather 
than content creation. As far as I've been able to see, the real 
difference in the two programs is that the paradigm for the layout 
and tools is based upon page layout and graphics programs rather than 
text creation. While it may be true that I would be able to function 
in that environment, the corresponding argument that the tools 
require a lot of minutiae font fiddling and placement fiddling make 
me feel like I'd be wasting more time.

Whenever I go into that program I feel like I've opened up Quark Express.

Scott


At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
>Hi framers,
>
>I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:
>
>http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Sarah
>--
>
>Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
>okeefe at scriptorium.com www.scriptorium.com
>Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
>___

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[John Sgammato]

I think it is a good view of what's happening. 
For a long time I have expected FM and INDD to come together, until only
one hybrid remains with the InDesign name, or some other name that is
not FrameMaker. I am not emotional about it, as long as my workflow is
not completely upended. 
I am a lone writer and I manage a lot of docs with no backup. I cannot
afford a long learning curve. I use INDD for a few things, so I am more
than familiar with it, but I prefer FrameMaker. 

john 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Sarah O'Keefe
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22 PM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
okeefe at scriptorium.com  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
___


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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

Sarah,

As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically 
add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an 
automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to 
enter text, it's a no-go.

Even Adobe compares it against Xpress, and NOT FrameMaker. The bells 
and whistles still don't make it a useable tool for long complex 
documents.

If I want to do a magazine layout, or a brochure, then InDesign is at 
the top of my list. But I can't see using it for anything else.

Scott

At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
>Hi framers,
>
>I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:
>
>http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Sarah
>--
>
>Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
>okeefe at scriptorium.com www.scriptorium.com
>Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:24 PM,   wrote:
> Sarah,
>
> As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically
> add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an
> automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to
> enter text, it's a no-go.

Here's the deal:

Smart Text Reflow is one of the "smaller" new features in ID CS4. It's
a preference you need to set, and it's got some options. It adds pages
as you type, and deletes empty ones when you delete content from them,
which isn't often a designer's need.

ID has always had auto-flow for "placed" content (like File > Import >
File in FM). It creates pages as it needs them. You'll need to read
the short passage in Help, when ID CS4 is released.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)

"...UNTIL NOW...," as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.

"...BUT, IN A WORLD..." where disclosure can now be thrown to the
winds, I'll add a few comments.

ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
amount.

ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
(real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
ability.)

FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.

Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
verify. Don't assume.

Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:

 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM 8
 * No "size matters" inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
containers.

Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
multiple entries in one marker like FM's ":" technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
entries from a partial heading

There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.

The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
frame above/below, table-cell properties.

One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to "square
one." ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
crash, it can restore almost every last one.

If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.

FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

It's still not ready for prime time. At least not for technical documentation.

It's still an Xpress style layout program for magazines and brochures, not long 
documents. The paradigm of it's tools and how you go about things are based 
upon the paste up board of a graphic designer. Don't tell me how great 
it is with it's add ons, its work flow isn't designed for what technical 
documentation requires. 

Scott

On Tue 08/09/23 16:59 , "Peter Gold"  sent:
> Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)
> 
> "...UNTIL NOW...," as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
> under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.
> 
> "...BUT, IN A WORLD..." where disclosure can now be thrown to the
> winds, I'll add a few comments.
> 
> ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
> set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
> variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
> styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
> specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
> content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
> amount.
> 
> ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
> authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
> (real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
> along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
> include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
> number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
> style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
> repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
> ability.)
> 
> FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
> Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
> interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.
> 
> Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
> verify. Don't assume.
> 
> Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:
> 
> * Run-in paragraphs
> * Side headings and side-heading area
> * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
> and multiple columns AND side heads
> * Table sorting
> * No Track Changes
> * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM
> 8* No "size matters" inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
> space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
> applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
> more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
> need, regardless of who-follows-what.
> * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
> ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
> containers.
> 
> Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
> complicated to do:
> * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
> of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
> * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
> multiple entries in one marker like FM's ":" technique
> * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
> entries from a partial heading
> 
> There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
> files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
> content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
> InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
> or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
> to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.
> 
> The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
> comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
> formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
> settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
> frame above/below, table-cell properties.
> 
> One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
> UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
> actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to "square
> one." ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
> crash, it can restore almost every last one.
> 
> If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
> parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
> or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
> compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
> book on the core issues for FrameMake

FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Lise Bible]

I currently create manuals in FrameMaker for the products that are
manufactured at this location. Deliverable is pdf and printed matter.

I've been using unstructured FrameMaker 7.1 on Win XP and the marketing
department has been using InDesign CS2 on Win XP. They're planning to
upgrade to CS3.

I've been asked by the Marketing Manager to investigate whether InDesign CS3
would meet my needs as a replacement for FrameMaker for product manuals so
we could all be on the same platform. I think if I made the case that there
would be serious functionality lost, he wouldn't have a big problem with me
staying with Frame, but I think he's leaning toward standardizing on ID
unless I can make the case otherwise.

Things of concern to me that I can do in Frame but not sure about ID:
cross-references, conditional text, auto-numbering.
Conditional text isn't a deal-killer for me; I've used it in a few manuals,
but it's not something I couldn't do without if it wasn't available.
Cross-references (see figure x on page x, see heading on page x) are
currently used extensively. Wouldn't want to do without those.
Auto numbering (esp. of figures (x+1): currently used extensively. Wouldn't
want to do without that either.

I've done some google searching and the closest I've come to a comparison is
this, but it's a little dated (and refers to OSX)
http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

There was a discussion of this a while back (last Feb, I think) here on the
frameusers forum, but I don't think it covered any new features that may
have been included in ID CS3 as opposed to CS2.

The version comparison chart on the Adobe site
(there's a link to a pdf here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/upgrade/)
lists automated bullets and numbering, but I don't know if that will
accommodate what I currently accomplish in Frame with a Figure paragraph
format for the figure label which inserts the next consecutive figure number
automatically.

Has anyone used InDesign CS3 and can give me any insights?
If not available in ID, are there 3rd-party plug-ins for ID that would
accomplish any of these with some kind of elegance and ease?

Thanks,
Lise Bible
___


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RE: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Matt Sullivan]

Hi Lise,

As I sit converting 4 FM templates to InDesign templates for a client...

You're pretty close to the mark with your analysis.

I tell my clients:
-Frame has more robust referencing
-Frame has more robust numbering

But at the same time, ID CS3's numbering and referencing is greatly improved
from earlier versions. ID also allows for Para and Character Styles that use
base Para Styles, and for Master Pages that use base Master Pages.

I've got a separate client happily doing this same conversion, but both
clients do not have extreme XREF issues, nor do they have extremely complex
numbering schemes. The nested styles and the improved Header/Footer
functionality have been pleasant surprises for them.

Bottom line: For documents requiring a great deal of customization and
layout, I recommend InDesign. For long doc's requiring standardization,
complex numbering, and complex referencing, use FrameMaker.

Of course, given Frame's improved integration with RoboHelp and Captivate,
these are also potential factors.

 

-Matt Sullivan

 

GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lise Bible
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:34 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

I currently create manuals in FrameMaker for the products that are
manufactured at this location. Deliverable is pdf and printed matter.

I've been using unstructured FrameMaker 7.1 on Win XP and the marketing
department has been using InDesign CS2 on Win XP. They're planning to
upgrade to CS3.

I've been asked by the Marketing Manager to investigate whether InDesign CS3
would meet my needs as a replacement for FrameMaker for product manuals so
we could all be on the same platform. I think if I made the case that there
would be serious functionality lost, he wouldn't have a big problem with me
staying with Frame, but I think he's leaning toward standardizing on ID
unless I can make the case otherwise.

Things of concern to me that I can do in Frame but not sure about ID:
cross-references, conditional text, auto-numbering.
Conditional text isn't a deal-killer for me; I've used it in a few manuals,
but it's not something I couldn't do without if it wasn't available.
Cross-references (see figure x on page x, see heading on page x) are
currently used extensively. Wouldn't want to do without those.
Auto numbering (esp. of figures (x+1): currently used extensively. Wouldn't
want to do without that either.

I've done some google searching and the closest I've come to a comparison is
this, but it's a little dated (and refers to OSX)
http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

There was a discussion of this a while back (last Feb, I think) here on the
frameusers forum, but I don't think it covered any new features that may
have been included in ID CS3 as opposed to CS2.

The version comparison chart on the Adobe site
(there's a link to a pdf here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/upgrade/)
lists automated bullets and numbering, but I don't know if that will
accommodate what I currently accomplish in Frame with a Figure paragraph
format for the figure label which inserts the next consecutive figure number
automatically.

Has anyone used InDesign CS3 and can give me any insights?
If not available in ID, are there 3rd-party plug-ins for ID that would
accomplish any of these with some kind of elegance and ease?

Thanks,
Lise Bible
___


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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Yves Barbion]

Other important arguments in favour of FrameMaker for technical 
documentation are also:

* Tables (especially with the TableCleaner plug-in)
* Integration of DITA to support structured xml authoring (even
  better with the DITA-FMx plug-in)
* Integration with ePublisher Pro and the DITA Open Toolkit to
  generate a wide variety of output targets: PDF (using FO and
  RenderX), HTMLHelp, XHTML, Eclipse Help, AIR Help, ...

Yves Barbion 
Documentation Architect
Adobe-Certified FrameMaker Instructor


Scripto bvba
Asselsstraat 65
9031 Gent
Belgium
T: +32 494 12 01 89
F: +32 9 366 50 23
BTW (VAT) BE 0886.192.394
skype: yves.barbion




Matt Sullivan wrote:
 Hi Lise,

 As I sit converting 4 FM templates to InDesign templates for a client...

 You're pretty close to the mark with your analysis.

 I tell my clients:
 -Frame has more robust referencing
 -Frame has more robust numbering

 But at the same time, ID CS3's numbering and referencing is greatly improved
 from earlier versions. ID also allows for Para and Character Styles that use
 base Para Styles, and for Master Pages that use base Master Pages.

 I've got a separate client happily doing this same conversion, but both
 clients do not have extreme XREF issues, nor do they have extremely complex
 numbering schemes. The nested styles and the improved Header/Footer
 functionality have been pleasant surprises for them.

 Bottom line: For documents requiring a great deal of customization and
 layout, I recommend InDesign. For long doc's requiring standardization,
 complex numbering, and complex referencing, use FrameMaker.

 Of course, given Frame's improved integration with RoboHelp and Captivate,
 these are also potential factors.

  

 -Matt Sullivan

  

 GRAFIX Training, Inc.

 An Adobe Authorized Training Center

 www.grafixtraining.com

 888 882-2819 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lise Bible
 Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:34 AM
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

 I currently create manuals in FrameMaker for the products that are
 manufactured at this location. Deliverable is pdf and printed matter.

 I've been using unstructured FrameMaker 7.1 on Win XP and the marketing
 department has been using InDesign CS2 on Win XP. They're planning to
 upgrade to CS3.

 I've been asked by the Marketing Manager to investigate whether InDesign CS3
 would meet my needs as a replacement for FrameMaker for product manuals so
 we could all be on the same platform. I think if I made the case that there
 would be serious functionality lost, he wouldn't have a big problem with me
 staying with Frame, but I think he's leaning toward standardizing on ID
 unless I can make the case otherwise.

 Things of concern to me that I can do in Frame but not sure about ID:
 cross-references, conditional text, auto-numbering.
 Conditional text isn't a deal-killer for me; I've used it in a few manuals,
 but it's not something I couldn't do without if it wasn't available.
 Cross-references (see figure x on page x, see heading on page x) are
 currently used extensively. Wouldn't want to do without those.
 Auto numbering (esp. of figures (x+1): currently used extensively. Wouldn't
 want to do without that either.

 I've done some google searching and the closest I've come to a comparison is
 this, but it's a little dated (and refers to OSX)
 http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

 There was a discussion of this a while back (last Feb, I think) here on the
 frameusers forum, but I don't think it covered any new features that may
 have been included in ID CS3 as opposed to CS2.

 The version comparison chart on the Adobe site
 (there's a link to a pdf here:
 http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/upgrade/)
 lists automated bullets and numbering, but I don't know if that will
 accommodate what I currently accomplish in Frame with a Figure paragraph
 format for the figure label which inserts the next consecutive figure number
 automatically.

 Has anyone used InDesign CS3 and can give me any insights?
 If not available in ID, are there 3rd-party plug-ins for ID that would
 accomplish any of these with some kind of elegance and ease?

 Thanks,
 Lise Bible
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Lisa:

There are two InDesign plug-ins you should look into while considering
the move to ID from FM.

* Cross-References: every bit as good as FM's, plus a few extras, like
an option for on next/previous/this page, if the reference source is
on next or same or previous page. Reasonable price for the features it
adds to ID. I reviewed this in detail in InDesign Magazine for Oct/Nov
2007. Contact them about buying the issue at www.indesignmag.com/
(must use the full address to avoid being redirected).

* MIF2ID: converts FM MIF files to ID files, for a per-page fee. Very
fast, very good fidelity for each page/spread. Compared to manual
conversion, time saved is repaid many times over. If you have their
Cross-References Plug-in installed, FM x-refs are converted. I'm
working on a detailed review scheduled for April publication
somewhere.

Both are made by dtptools.com. I'm completely independent from DTP Tools.

Regarding ID's numbered lists vs. FM, nothing lost, except time
figuring out how to create counterparts manually. MIF2ID converts
them.

Matt's point about FM8's integration in the Technical Communications
Suite is important if you're working with RoboHelp (now supports FM,
again) if you're creating help systems, and Captivate 3 (to record
tutorials).

ID does support XML, with or without DTD, but not the same way as FM -
learning curve ahead. Also, ID doesn't currently support DITA, which
FM does.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
___
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


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FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Lise Bible]

I currently create manuals in FrameMaker for the products that are
manufactured at this location. Deliverable is pdf and printed matter.

I've been using unstructured FrameMaker 7.1 on Win XP and the marketing
department has been using InDesign CS2 on Win XP. They're planning to
upgrade to CS3.

I've been asked by the Marketing Manager to investigate whether InDesign CS3
would meet my needs as a replacement for FrameMaker for product manuals so
we could all be on the same platform. I think if I made the case that there
would be serious functionality lost, he wouldn't have a big problem with me
staying with Frame, but I think he's leaning toward standardizing on ID
unless I can make the case otherwise.

Things of concern to me that I can do in Frame but not sure about ID:
cross-references, conditional text, auto-numbering.
Conditional text isn't a deal-killer for me; I've used it in a few manuals,
but it's not something I couldn't do without if it wasn't available.
Cross-references (see figure x on page x, see heading on page x) are
currently used extensively. Wouldn't want to do without those.
Auto numbering (esp. of figures (x+1): currently used extensively. Wouldn't
want to do without that either.

I've done some google searching and the closest I've come to a comparison is
this, but it's a little dated (and refers to OSX)
http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

There was a discussion of this a while back (last Feb, I think) here on the
frameusers forum, but I don't think it covered any new features that may
have been included in ID CS3 as opposed to CS2.

The version comparison chart on the Adobe site
(there's a link to a pdf here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/upgrade/)
lists automated bullets and numbering, but I don't know if that will
accommodate what I currently accomplish in Frame with a "Figure" paragraph
format for the figure label which inserts the next consecutive figure number
automatically.

Has anyone used InDesign CS3 and can give me any insights?
If not available in ID, are there 3rd-party plug-ins for ID that would
accomplish any of these with some kind of elegance and ease?

Thanks,
Lise Bible

FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

[Matt Sullivan]

Hi Lise,

As I sit converting 4 FM templates to InDesign templates for a client...

You're pretty close to the mark with your analysis.

I tell my clients:
-Frame has more robust referencing
-Frame has more robust numbering

But at the same time, ID CS3's numbering and referencing is greatly improved
from earlier versions. ID also allows for Para and Character Styles that use
base Para Styles, and for Master Pages that use base Master Pages.

I've got a separate client happily doing this same conversion, but both
clients do not have extreme XREF issues, nor do they have extremely complex
numbering schemes. The nested styles and the improved Header/Footer
functionality have been pleasant surprises for them.

Bottom line: For documents requiring a great deal of customization and
layout, I recommend InDesign. For long doc's requiring standardization,
complex numbering, and complex referencing, use FrameMaker.

Of course, given Frame's improved integration with RoboHelp and Captivate,
these are also potential factors.



-Matt Sullivan



GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lise Bible
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:34 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign CS3

I currently create manuals in FrameMaker for the products that are
manufactured at this location. Deliverable is pdf and printed matter.

I've been using unstructured FrameMaker 7.1 on Win XP and the marketing
department has been using InDesign CS2 on Win XP. They're planning to
upgrade to CS3.

I've been asked by the Marketing Manager to investigate whether InDesign CS3
would meet my needs as a replacement for FrameMaker for product manuals so
we could all be on the same platform. I think if I made the case that there
would be serious functionality lost, he wouldn't have a big problem with me
staying with Frame, but I think he's leaning toward standardizing on ID
unless I can make the case otherwise.

Things of concern to me that I can do in Frame but not sure about ID:
cross-references, conditional text, auto-numbering.
Conditional text isn't a deal-killer for me; I've used it in a few manuals,
but it's not something I couldn't do without if it wasn't available.
Cross-references (see figure x on page x, see heading on page x) are
currently used extensively. Wouldn't want to do without those.
Auto numbering (esp. of figures (x+1): currently used extensively. Wouldn't
want to do without that either.

I've done some google searching and the closest I've come to a comparison is
this, but it's a little dated (and refers to OSX)
http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

There was a discussion of this a while back (last Feb, I think) here on the
frameusers forum, but I don't think it covered any new features that may
have been included in ID CS3 as opposed to CS2.

The version comparison chart on the Adobe site
(there's a link to a pdf here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/upgrade/)
lists automated bullets and numbering, but I don't know if that will
accommodate what I currently accomplish in Frame with a "Figure" paragraph
format for the figure label which inserts the next consecutive figure number
automatically.

Has anyone used InDesign CS3 and can give me any insights?
If not available in ID, are there 3rd-party plug-ins for ID that would
accomplish any of these with some kind of elegance and ease?

Thanks,
Lise Bible
___


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