RE: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Craig Ede]

  I think Rick is correct. Think of building small xml docs 
with a particular need in mind to get an idea of what structure is about. The 
infrastructure behind supporting a small xml doc is the same as for a large 
document (only with fewer of each of the parts that have to be defined in 
things like the DTD and the EDD). My first xml exploration involved data in a 
spreadsheet exported to tabbed text and then wrapped in xml tags. The problem 
then was to display the data elements in a document. 

Craig

  
-
Hi, I am going to offer a contrary opinion. I wouldn't start with DocBook,
DITA, or any existing applications. I would create a simple, custom
application to get my feet wet. I do this when I train clients, even if they
are using DITA, etc. It helps them to digest the concepts with a small
application; then they can figure out how to get around in larger
applications.
 
Rick
 
Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-366-4017
r...@frameexpert.com  ___


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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Heiko Haida]

 

Hi Theresa, 

although this will not help you at the moment: Structured authoring is
not like loading a new and maybe a little bit strange template from
somewhere and thats it. 

It is a completely different approach of thinking. 

There are tons of books about this and all of them say: Take your
time... First step: Define your structural needs. Them: Implement a
suitable DTD (or Schema) and adjust your tools and processes. 

The advice is to calculate at least one year for this, before the actual
work could start (you are already worried about a few days...). 

The main strength of structured writing is the reliability and the
flexibility (if everything is well done) - of course we are talking of
hundreds and thousands of documents. 

The main problem is: There are cases when the structure is either too
narrow or too loose, and most authors do not know how to adjust the DTD
but would sort of bend the material or misuse structural elements, thus
weakening the aforementioned strength. 

So, I definitely agree with Rick: You should start thinking about your
own DTD first and then compare this with DITA or any other made-up DTD. 

Best regards - Tino H. Haida 

Theresa de Valence: 

> On 8/13/2014 11:21 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:
> 
>> XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1) the 
>> implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause you 
>> trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA support 
>> in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than DocBook :)
> 
> OK, conceptually, I understand the value of dividing each part of the 
> document into a single-purpose element and that DITA might be better 
> than the mishmash of DocBook. However, when I look at the DITA 
> applications in structapps.fm, I cannot tell which application is used 
> for plain ordinary text (i.e. what consitutes ). How does one use 
> DITA for:
> --Book
> Chapter
> --Section
> Body
> 
> Is this what the DITA map is?
> [And here I thought we were going to have geographical maps in the book 
> 8-) ]
> 
> Thanks,
> Theresa
> P.S. I have ordered XML AND FRAMEMAKER by Kay Ethier but it won't be 
> here for several days
> ___
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Steve Rickaby]

Theresa

Going back to your original posting...

>Also, my project involves converting two novellas into one ebook.

... it does not sound as if the documents you are working on are structurally 
complex. Before you give yourself a lot of pain, it might be worth revisiting 
the issue of whether you need to use structured FrameMaker at all.

As for the other issues, I'm in the same camp as Rick. When I started with 
structure, I was faced with two issues:

1. A complex book design that had been produced by a design agency with no 
thought to structure or indeed of FrameMaker.

2. A group of authors who *demanded* structured, for reasons of reuse leverage.

so I had no choice.

I will send you a further article off-list that describes how I went about it.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Scott Prentice]

I completely agree with Rick .. assuming you know that you're going to 
use XML and you're going to be modifying an existing structure 
application. This is a great way to learn the basics from the ground up 
and the bigger apps will make a bit more sense.


...scott

On 8/13/14 2:53 PM, Rick Quatro wrote:

Hi, I am going to offer a contrary opinion. I wouldn't start with DocBook,
DITA, or any existing applications. I would create a simple, custom
application to get my feet wet. I do this when I train clients, even if they
are using DITA, etc. It helps them to digest the concepts with a small
application; then they can figure out how to get around in larger
applications.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-366-4017
r...@frameexpert.com



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Theresa de
Valence
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 4:53 PM
To: Scott Prentice; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

On 8/13/2014 11:21 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:

XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1)
the implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause
you trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA
support in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than DocBook
:)


OK, conceptually, I understand the value of dividing each part of the
document into a single-purpose element and that DITA might be better than
the mishmash of DocBook. However, when I look at the DITA applications in
structapps.fm, I cannot tell which application is used for plain ordinary
text (i.e. what consitutes ). How does one use DITA for:
--Book
Chapter
--Section
Body

Is this what the DITA map is?
[And here I thought we were going to have geographical maps in the book
8-) ]

Thanks,
Theresa
P.S. I have ordered XML AND FRAMEMAKER by Kay Ethier but it won't be here
for several days ___




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RE: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Rick Quatro]

Hi, I am going to offer a contrary opinion. I wouldn't start with DocBook,
DITA, or any existing applications. I would create a simple, custom
application to get my feet wet. I do this when I train clients, even if they
are using DITA, etc. It helps them to digest the concepts with a small
application; then they can figure out how to get around in larger
applications.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-366-4017
r...@frameexpert.com



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Theresa de
Valence
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 4:53 PM
To: Scott Prentice; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

On 8/13/2014 11:21 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:
>
> XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1) 
> the implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause 
> you trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA 
> support in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than DocBook  
> :)


OK, conceptually, I understand the value of dividing each part of the
document into a single-purpose element and that DITA might be better than
the mishmash of DocBook. However, when I look at the DITA applications in
structapps.fm, I cannot tell which application is used for plain ordinary
text (i.e. what consitutes ). How does one use DITA for:
--Book
Chapter
--Section
Body

Is this what the DITA map is?
[And here I thought we were going to have geographical maps in the book
8-) ]

Thanks,
Theresa
P.S. I have ordered XML AND FRAMEMAKER by Kay Ethier but it won't be here
for several days ___


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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Scott Prentice]

It sounds like you need to read up on the fundamentals of DITA. Would be 
more informative than what you'll likely get from this list. This is a 
good place to start ..


http://dita.xml.org/book/dita-wiki-knowledgebase

Fundamentally, DITA is all about organizing your content in modular 
chunks called topics. A "topic" may be a generic model called topic or a 
more specialized (restrictive) model called concept, task, reference (or 
other). You assemble topics (typically separate files, but you can have 
single files that contain multiple topics) into hierarchies using a dita 
map. You can further assemble hierarchies by having maps within maps .. 
it all depends on how you want to arrange your content.


One option for the top-most map is to use a map type called "bookmap". A 
bookmap can have special elements that define groups of topics as a 
chapter, appendix, or part, and you can add frontmatter and backmatter 
elements that contain elements that become your generated lists (toc, 
indexlist, etc).


Within a topic you'll have a structure that provides for a title 
(required), a short description (optional), some metadata (within a 
prolog element), then a body element that contains the main content of 
the topic. The markup within the body is very much like HTML, you'll see 
elements like , , , and within paragraphs you can have inline 
markup like , , , and many others.


Your best bet is to just use the New DITA File menu to create a new 
topic (of any type) and give it a try. Don't worry about the actual 
structured applications that are in use at this point, you're getting 
way ahead of yourself.


The default setup in FM (since FM10) is to have separate apps for each 
topic type. This more closely mirrors the official DTD structure, but 
makes it much harder for FM users. Figure out which XML model you want 
to use, then you can decide how (or if) you want to customize it.


Remember that with DITA (XML in general), you really shouldn't worry 
about what the documents look like when you're authoring, you should 
only care what they look like when published. So you should be able to 
use the default apps and models exactly as they are, and just set up a 
publishing process that applies the right templates and formatting.


Cheers,

...scott



On 8/13/14 1:52 PM, Theresa de Valence wrote:

On 8/13/2014 11:21 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:


XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1) the
implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause you
trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA
support in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than 
DocBook  :)



OK, conceptually, I understand the value of dividing each part of the 
document into a single-purpose element and that DITA might be better 
than the mishmash of DocBook. However, when I look at the DITA 
applications in structapps.fm, I cannot tell which application is used 
for plain ordinary text (i.e. what consitutes ). How does one 
use DITA for:

--Book
Chapter
--Section
Body

Is this what the DITA map is?
[And here I thought we were going to have geographical maps in the 
book 8-) ]


Thanks,
Theresa
P.S. I have ordered XML AND FRAMEMAKER by Kay Ethier but it won't be 
here for several days




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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame (DITA)

[Theresa de Valence]

On 8/13/2014 11:21 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:


XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1) the
implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause you
trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA
support in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than DocBook  :)



OK, conceptually, I understand the value of dividing each part of the 
document into a single-purpose element and that DITA might be better 
than the mishmash of DocBook. However, when I look at the DITA 
applications in structapps.fm, I cannot tell which application is used 
for plain ordinary text (i.e. what consitutes ). How does one use 
DITA for:

--Book
Chapter
--Section
Body

Is this what the DITA map is?
[And here I thought we were going to have geographical maps in the book 
8-) ]


Thanks,
Theresa
P.S. I have ordered XML AND FRAMEMAKER by Kay Ethier but it won't be 
here for several days

___


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RE: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Craig Ede]

Theresa,

To learn all this stuff more efficiently you should buy Kay Ethier's book "XML 
and FrameMaker" and work through it. This book is slightly out of date and 
things are now more streamlined in the newer versions of Framemaker, but it 
gives a very clear idea of what is necessary to set up a structured application.

Also, playing with the built-in DITA application also gives a simplified view 
of a structured application (in the sense that many parts of the structured app 
are predefined to meet the DITA standard).

Good luck.

Craig
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Scott Prentice]

On 8/13/14 8:33 AM, Theresa de Valence wrote:

On 8/12/2014 3:11 PM, Scott Prentice wrote:

Don't open any of them from the file system. You have two choices ..
from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Application Definitions to
edit your "local" structapps file (this is most likely what you should
be using) .. OR .. from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Global
Application Definitions". The app definitions in the "local" file are
typically those that you create for your own use. The "global" app
definitions are those for apps provided by Adobe.

I recommend that people never modify the default apps .. either create
your own from scratch (for advanced users only), or clone the default
apps and give them a new name and modify those (the most likely
scenario). You will mess up the apps (everyone does), and it's important
to have the default unmodified apps to go back to for testing. In
general you should be able to have all the apps "installed" and
available for use at the same time.



The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook 
in it
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which 
DocBook

file to start with?




I'd start by using DocBook (or DITA) out of the box, totally unmodified.


Which one, SGML or XML?
XML for sure, and personally I'd use DITA. DITA for 3 reasons .. 1) the 
implementation of DocBook support has problems, and that may cause you 
trouble down the line, 2) you'll likely find more options for DITA 
support in the techcomm space, and 3) I like DITA better than DocBook  :)





Get comfortable with that and then try making any needed modifications
(after cloning the apps). You don't have to use the entire model, just
use the bits that you need and ignore the rest. If you're just learning
how this all works, starting off by trying to modify things is just
going to cause huge amounts of grief.


Do I understand correctly that to clone the app, I "Edit Global
Application Definitions" then copy/paste the section of structapps.fm 
with the Application name "DocBook" from the demarking line to the 
demarking line (line across the page) and give it a new name like 
"TDocBook"


or is there more to it than this?
Do I also find the ..\docbook\app\ directories and copy contents to 
new directories?
There more to it. You need to create a new structure app definition (and 
probably create it in the "local" app definition file not the "global" 
one), but you also have to clone the app files themselves (at least the 
template, which contains the EDD). This topic described cloning the 
default DITA-FMx apps. The process will be different for the default FM 
apps, but the basic concept is the same.


http://docs.leximation.com/dita-fmx/2.0/?ditafmx_cloningtapps.html

The important thing is that you have to edit the EDD within the template 
to change the app name in there. If you just edit the name of the app in 
the structure app definition, it'll seem like it's working, but won't 
really work. You'll open a file with "your" app, but once it's open, the 
app name inside the EDD will define how it's saved, and it'll use the 
default app instead of yours .. very confusing.




As for Entity locations Public ID and Filename (local), do I rename 
these (in the cloned area) to reflect the new name and directories?

What else do I need to do?

This will depend on what you're modifying. Your app definition can 
continue to point to the default DTDs and entity definitions, if you're 
not modifying them, but if you are, then you have to copy those files 
into your new app folder (or whereever), and point to them there. These 
questions are hard to answer without knowing what you're changing. This 
is why it's best to use the default apps first and learn how it all 
works before modifying anything.


Cheers,

...scott



Thanks very much,
Theresa



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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Theresa de Valence]

On 8/12/2014 3:11 PM, Scott Prentice wrote:

Don't open any of them from the file system. You have two choices ..
from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Application Definitions to
edit your "local" structapps file (this is most likely what you should
be using) .. OR .. from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Global
Application Definitions". The app definitions in the "local" file are
typically those that you create for your own use. The "global" app
definitions are those for apps provided by Adobe.

I recommend that people never modify the default apps .. either create
your own from scratch (for advanced users only), or clone the default
apps and give them a new name and modify those (the most likely
scenario). You will mess up the apps (everyone does), and it's important
to have the default unmodified apps to go back to for testing. In
general you should be able to have all the apps "installed" and
available for use at the same time.




The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in it
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which DocBook
file to start with?




I'd start by using DocBook (or DITA) out of the box, totally unmodified.


Which one, SGML or XML?


Get comfortable with that and then try making any needed modifications
(after cloning the apps). You don't have to use the entire model, just
use the bits that you need and ignore the rest. If you're just learning
how this all works, starting off by trying to modify things is just
going to cause huge amounts of grief.


Do I understand correctly that to clone the app, I "Edit Global
Application Definitions" then copy/paste the section of structapps.fm 
with the Application name "DocBook" from the demarking line to the 
demarking line (line across the page) and give it a new name like "TDocBook"


or is there more to it than this?
Do I also find the ..\docbook\app\ directories and copy contents to new 
directories?


As for Entity locations Public ID and Filename (local), do I rename 
these (in the cloned area) to reflect the new name and directories?


What else do I need to do?

Thanks very much,
Theresa
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Scott Prentice]

On 8/12/14 1:00 PM, Theresa de Valence wrote:

On 8/12/2014 11:08 AM, Theresa de Valence wrote:

Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either
dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files
which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?


Please answer?


Don't open any of them from the file system. You have two choices .. 
from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Application Definitions to 
edit your "local" structapps file (this is most likely what you should 
be using) .. OR .. from the Structure Tools menu choose "Edit Global 
Application Definitions". The app definitions in the "local" file are 
typically those that you create for your own use. The "global" app 
definitions are those for apps provided by Adobe.


I recommend that people never modify the default apps .. either create 
your own from scratch (for advanced users only), or clone the default 
apps and give them a new name and modify those (the most likely 
scenario). You will mess up the apps (everyone does), and it's important 
to have the default unmodified apps to go back to for testing. In 
general you should be able to have all the apps "installed" and 
available for use at the same time.





The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in it
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which DocBook
file to start with?


I comprehend that several of you think I should start with something 
less complex than DocBook. There is an XML application called 
SelfPublish which has only 2 Doctypes: GeneralBook and Chapter. It has 
a location for DTD and template, but no read/write rules or entities 
(public ID).


The problem with using the SelfPublish app is that I find it easier to 
remove what I don’t need than to create something which I don’t yet 
understand.


If I modify one of these DocBook apps, can I disassociate _my_ DocBook 
from the public entities? If so, which should I choose?


I'd start by using DocBook (or DITA) out of the box, totally unmodified. 
Get comfortable with that and then try making any needed modifications 
(after cloning the apps). You don't have to use the entire model, just 
use the bits that you need and ignore the rest. If you're just learning 
how this all works, starting off by trying to modify things is just 
going to cause huge amounts of grief.


Cheers,

...scott





Thank you, everyone, I already know more than I did this morning.
8-)
Theresa
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Theresa de Valence]

On 8/12/2014 11:08 AM, Theresa de Valence wrote:

Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either
dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files
which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?


Please answer?


The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in it
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which DocBook
file to start with?


I comprehend that several of you think I should start with something 
less complex than DocBook. There is an XML application called 
SelfPublish which has only 2 Doctypes: GeneralBook and Chapter. It has a 
location for DTD and template, but no read/write rules or entities 
(public ID).


The problem with using the SelfPublish app is that I find it easier to 
remove what I don’t need than to create something which I don’t yet 
understand.


If I modify one of these DocBook apps, can I disassociate _my_ DocBook 
from the public entities? If so, which should I choose?



Thank you, everyone, I already know more than I did this morning.
8-)
Theresa
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Steve Rickaby]

At 13:28 -0500 12/8/14, Theresa de Valence wrote:

>On 8/12/2014 12:57 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
>>Let me know if you'd like a copy of my beginner's guide. At the very
>>least it will give you an idea of the complexity of structure and
>>whether it's worthwhile for you.
>
>Steve, you can't imagine how many times I have read through those articles!

Ah. Then they have failed :-(

-- 
Steve
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RE: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Nope - all the guts of FM's direct publishing come straight from the FM to RH 
integration in TCS.

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Theresa de Valence
Sent: August-12-14 2:02 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

On 8/12/2014 12:31 PM, Jeff Coatsworth wrote:
> Sorry you fell down the rabbit-hole, but I'm pretty sure that you
> don't need to be running structured FM to create an ePUB.

Using the unstructured book file, the epub comes out with the chapters 
in the wrong order.

> See http://www.mattrsullivan.com/ebooks-with-fm-rh/

This is about Robohelp. I'm not using Robohelp, I'm publishing to epub 
with Frame 12. I think it's a different beast, No?

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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Theresa de Valence]

On 8/12/2014 12:57 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

Let me know if you'd like a copy of my beginner's guide. At the very
least it will give you an idea of the complexity of structure and
whether it's worthwhile for you.



Steve, you can't imagine how many times I have read through those articles!

Thanks,
Theresa
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[John Sgammato]

It used to require RoboHelp, but in FM12 you can go right to ePUB from File
> Publish.


On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Theresa de Valence  wrote:

> On 8/12/2014 12:31 PM, Jeff Coatsworth wrote:
>
>> Sorry you fell down the rabbit-hole, but I'm pretty sure that you
>> don't need to be running structured FM to create an ePUB.
>>
>
> Using the unstructured book file, the epub comes out with the chapters in
> the wrong order.
>
>  See http://www.mattrsullivan.com/ebooks-with-fm-rh/
>>
>
> This is about Robohelp. I'm not using Robohelp, I'm publishing to epub
> with Frame 12. I think it's a different beast, No?
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as john.sgamm...@actifio.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/john.
> sgammato%40actifio.com
>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 

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*e* john.sgamm...@actifio.com  *c* 508.927.2083
*t* @actifiodocs 

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*.*
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Steve Rickaby]

BTW...

At 11:08 -0500 12/8/14, Theresa de Valence wrote:

>I now have ~50 files which are components of my unstructured book file. How 
>would you recommend that I take the contents of those 50 files and move them 
>into the structured book?

It doesn't work quite like that: you can't just move from unstructured to 
structured by importing files. There is a process involved, which requires an 
EDD and wrapping tables.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Theresa de Valence]

On 8/12/2014 12:31 PM, Jeff Coatsworth wrote:

Sorry you fell down the rabbit-hole, but I'm pretty sure that you
don't need to be running structured FM to create an ePUB.


Using the unstructured book file, the epub comes out with the chapters 
in the wrong order.



See http://www.mattrsullivan.com/ebooks-with-fm-rh/


This is about Robohelp. I'm not using Robohelp, I'm publishing to epub 
with Frame 12. I think it's a different beast, No?


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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Bruce Wolf]

This is what I've tried with our unstructured documents and had good success 
with EPub output.  

We are so busy, I've only dabbled.  

So, I'd say this is very good advice from Alan.

Bruce


On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:37 PM, Alan Houser  
wrote:
 


This is one of the more common and frustrating mis-conceptions I see in 
the FrameMaker community  that publishing to ePub and other newer 
output formats requires structured FrameMaker. In fact, even when 
working with structured source files, FrameMaker's style mappings are 
based on paragraph and character formats, not elements.

If you are comfortable with unstructured FrameMaker, and have 
unstructured source files, I would start by experimenting with 
FrameMaker's eBook capabilities there. File > Publish. Choose your 
target format, and click the "Edit Settings" button. Play with the 
"Style Mapping" tab and see how that affects your results.

Configuring structured FrameMaker presents a daunting learning curve, 
that I would not recommend climbing unless you have clear requirements 
to do so. And FrameMaker's DocBook implementation is..., well..., 
anybody who tries to use it for real work is in for a world of hurt.

-Alan
---

Alan Houser
Group Wellesley, Inc.
Consultant and Trainer, Technical Publishing
arh on Twitter
412-450-0532


On 8/12/14, 12:08 PM, Theresa de Valence wrote:
> I started my Frame 12 experience with a new convert to ebook/pdf 
> project. I created an unstructured book because I 
> quasi-know-what-I’m-doing in the unstructured world. However, I think 
> to publish this book as an ebook, it has to be structured. I have had 
> a long running affair with trying to understand structured Frame and I 
> have to say that the various pieces of documentation on adobe.com are 
> next to useless and, unfortunately, much of the documentation by 
> others (and Adobe) starts with Frame 6 or segues into Robohelp. While 
> I understand theoretically what’s going on with structured Frame, 
> getting from here to there is no picnic.
>
> Anyway, I’m starting again with the "new" structured templates which 
> came with Frame 12. I can see that I’ll have to create or modify an EDD.
>
> Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either 
> dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files 
> which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?
>
> The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in 
> it (SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which 
> DocBook file to start with?
>
> Also, my project involves converting two novellas into one ebook. I 
> believe I’m going to require one fm book with two nested books within. 
> How do I add that structure to the DocBook file?
>
> I now have ~50 files which are components of my unstructured book 
> file. How would you recommend that I take the contents of those 50 
> files and move them into the structured book?
>
>
> Thanks for your help. I’m sure there will be more questions.
>
> Cheers,
> Theresa
> ___

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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Steve Rickaby]

Hi Theresa

As others have said, it doesn't have to be structured to become an eBook.

As an aside, be aware that ePub processes can make a mess of your formatting, 
whether you are using structure or not: imho they are a work in progress. I 
know this for a fact, having seen the mess that the ePub processes can make of 
a nicely formatted print/PDF book - in my case, textbooks.

However, if you *do* decide to tackle the structured learning curve, I found 
the same problems with the structured documentation as you have when I started 
with structured FrameMaker. Partially as a result, I wrote a series of articles 
for the ISTC as a beginner's guide. If you would like a copy, let me know.

Structured is a head-banger when you're new to it, but it doesn't have to be 
complex, and it can be rewarding. I'd guess that starting from DocBook is not 
the best plan for you, especially if your books aren't structurally complex. 
DocBook was designed as a one-size-fits-all solution, and as a result the EDD 
contains zillions of elements, most of which you would not need.

Your first steps are probably:

. Do a thorough analysis of the structure you will need. You can think of this 
in terms of para styles to start out with, which will then be encapsulated in 
elements if you decide on structure.

. Decide whether structure will help you. Factors here are the amount of 
automation (not automation as in scripting, but the rules that structure 
offers) that would help helpful, and other factors such as the usefulness of 
XML <-> FrameMaker exchange.

. Decide on whether to create your own EDD or modify an existing one. See my 
comments above on DocBook.

Let me know if you'd like a copy of my beginner's guide. At the very least it 
will give you an idea of the complexity of structure and whether it's 
worthwhile for you.

-- 
Steve Rickaby   
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Re: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Alan Houser]

This is one of the more common and frustrating mis-conceptions I see in 
the FrameMaker community  that publishing to ePub and other newer 
output formats requires structured FrameMaker. In fact, even when 
working with structured source files, FrameMaker's style mappings are 
based on paragraph and character formats, not elements.


If you are comfortable with unstructured FrameMaker, and have 
unstructured source files, I would start by experimenting with 
FrameMaker's eBook capabilities there. File > Publish. Choose your 
target format, and click the "Edit Settings" button. Play with the 
"Style Mapping" tab and see how that affects your results.


Configuring structured FrameMaker presents a daunting learning curve, 
that I would not recommend climbing unless you have clear requirements 
to do so. And FrameMaker's DocBook implementation is..., well..., 
anybody who tries to use it for real work is in for a world of hurt.


-Alan
---

Alan Houser
Group Wellesley, Inc.
Consultant and Trainer, Technical Publishing
arh on Twitter
412-450-0532

On 8/12/14, 12:08 PM, Theresa de Valence wrote:
I started my Frame 12 experience with a new convert to ebook/pdf 
project. I created an unstructured book because I 
quasi-know-what-I’m-doing in the unstructured world. However, I think 
to publish this book as an ebook, it has to be structured. I have had 
a long running affair with trying to understand structured Frame and I 
have to say that the various pieces of documentation on adobe.com are 
next to useless and, unfortunately, much of the documentation by 
others (and Adobe) starts with Frame 6 or segues into Robohelp. While 
I understand theoretically what’s going on with structured Frame, 
getting from here to there is no picnic.


Anyway, I’m starting again with the "new" structured templates which 
came with Frame 12. I can see that I’ll have to create or modify an EDD.


Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either 
dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files 
which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?


The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in 
it (SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which 
DocBook file to start with?


Also, my project involves converting two novellas into one ebook. I 
believe I’m going to require one fm book with two nested books within. 
How do I add that structure to the DocBook file?


I now have ~50 files which are components of my unstructured book 
file. How would you recommend that I take the contents of those 50 
files and move them into the structured book?



Thanks for your help. I’m sure there will be more questions.

Cheers,
Theresa
___


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RE: Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Sorry you fell down the rabbit-hole, but I'm pretty sure that you don't need to 
be running structured FM to create an ePUB. See 
http://www.mattrsullivan.com/ebooks-with-fm-rh/ 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Theresa de Valence
Sent: August-12-14 12:08 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Getting a handle on structured Frame

I started my Frame 12 experience with a new convert to ebook/pdf 
project. I created an unstructured book because I 
quasi-know-what-I'm-doing in the unstructured world. However, I think to 
publish this book as an ebook, it has to be structured. I have had a 
long running affair with trying to understand structured Frame and I 
have to say that the various pieces of documentation on adobe.com are 
next to useless and, unfortunately, much of the documentation by others 
(and Adobe) starts with Frame 6 or segues into Robohelp. While I 
understand theoretically what's going on with structured Frame, getting 
from here to there is no picnic.

Anyway, I'm starting again with the "new" structured templates which 
came with Frame 12. I can see that I'll have to create or modify an EDD.

Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either 
dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files 
which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?

The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in it 
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which DocBook 
file to start with?

Also, my project involves converting two novellas into one ebook. I 
believe I'm going to require one fm book with two nested books within. 
How do I add that structure to the DocBook file?

I now have ~50 files which are components of my unstructured book file. 
How would you recommend that I take the contents of those 50 files and 
move them into the structured book?


Thanks for your help. I'm sure there will be more questions.

Cheers,
Theresa
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Getting a handle on structured Frame

[Theresa de Valence]

I started my Frame 12 experience with a new convert to ebook/pdf 
project. I created an unstructured book because I 
quasi-know-what-I’m-doing in the unstructured world. However, I think to 
publish this book as an ebook, it has to be structured. I have had a 
long running affair with trying to understand structured Frame and I 
have to say that the various pieces of documentation on adobe.com are 
next to useless and, unfortunately, much of the documentation by others 
(and Adobe) starts with Frame 6 or segues into Robohelp. While I 
understand theoretically what’s going on with structured Frame, getting 
from here to there is no picnic.


Anyway, I’m starting again with the "new" structured templates which 
came with Frame 12. I can see that I’ll have to create or modify an EDD.


Frame 12 installed 13 versions of structapps.fm on my system, either 
dated 12/5/2013 or the date I installed the program. There are 6 files 
which are 282KB. How do I choose which file to open?


The structapps.fm file which I did open has 3 varieties of DocBook in it 
(SGML DocBook, XML DocBook, DocBook2.2.1). How do I choose which DocBook 
file to start with?


Also, my project involves converting two novellas into one ebook. I 
believe I’m going to require one fm book with two nested books within. 
How do I add that structure to the DocBook file?


I now have ~50 files which are components of my unstructured book file. 
How would you recommend that I take the contents of those 50 files and 
move them into the structured book?



Thanks for your help. I’m sure there will be more questions.

Cheers,
Theresa
___


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