Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples 
to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is black but 
the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for years in other 
catalogs with them and they were fine.

I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.

I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
recommendation. Create the pdf.

What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.

We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 9 
with all the updates.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Art Campbell]

I know you said you have all updates installed, but it'd be good if
you double-checked for both FM and Acrobat. Also, are you running a
full version of Acrobat, or the limited version installed by Frame?

Then, because you're running under XP, have you installed the
Microsoft hotfix for PostScript printers? Pretty much mandatory if you
haven't -- it fixes a host of problems.
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=952909 -- it applies to all PS
printers, including the logical PDF.

Assuming you have the Acrobat logical printer installed properly,
there isn't a reason NOT to print to PS and then distill manually,
although if you're printing to the logical printer (not using SaveAs),
the result should be the same. (Uh, you're not using SaveAs to create
the PDF, are you?)

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Scott White  wrote:
> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
> trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples 
> to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is black but 
> the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for years in other 
> catalogs with them and they were fine.
>
> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
> results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
> charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.
>
> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
> press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
> recommendation. Create the pdf.
>
> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
> postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
>
> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 
> 9 with all the updates.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swhite at alamark.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Art
Using the limited version installed by frame. I know the updates are there for 
frame, but will have to check the ones for acrobat and the hot fix. I will 
assume no.
That will be a good place to start.
I'm using the print option not save as.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com




On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Art Campbell wrote:

> I know you said you have all updates installed, but it'd be good if
> you double-checked for both FM and Acrobat. Also, are you running a
> full version of Acrobat, or the limited version installed by Frame?
> 
> Then, because you're running under XP, have you installed the
> Microsoft hotfix for PostScript printers? Pretty much mandatory if you
> haven't -- it fixes a host of problems.
> http://support.microsoft.com/?id=952909 -- it applies to all PS
> printers, including the logical PDF.
> 
> Assuming you have the Acrobat logical printer installed properly,
> there isn't a reason NOT to print to PS and then distill manually,
> although if you're printing to the logical printer (not using SaveAs),
> the result should be the same. (Uh, you're not using SaveAs to create
> the PDF, are you?)
> 
> Art
> 
> Art Campbell
>   art.campbell at gmail.com
>  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
> Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
>  No disclaimers apply.
>   DoD 358
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Scott White  wrote:
>> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 
>> 9 trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending 
>> samples to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is 
>> black but the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for 
>> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
>> 
>> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
>> results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
>> charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.
>> 
>> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
>> press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
>> recommendation. Create the pdf.
>> 
>> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
>> postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
>> 
>> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and 
>> Framemaker 9 with all the updates.
>> 
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Scott White
>> Media Production & EBC Manager
>> Implementation Coordinator
>> 210-704-8239
>> swhite at alamark.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> 
>> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>> 
>> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>> 
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit 
>> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>> 
>> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>> 
> 
> 

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Dov Isaacs]

Two possibilities here ...

(1) Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
to the Adobe PDF
PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, all 
grayscale and
CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a GDI 
application
except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.

(2) Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
the various
options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless you 
ALSO apply
the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual grayscale, 
you will end
up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.

R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the K 
(black) channel
on most devices and/or with most drivers.

So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that the 
image really
is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:

The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. This 
only works for
FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs associated 
with NOT using
the RGB option. (When you don't select the RGB option, FrameMaker uses the 
PostScript Level 1
generator from the older UNIX versions of FrameMaker to generate PostScript for 
distilling.
I won't comment on that further! :-(  )

The second option is to open the images in question in Photoshop and resave as 
EPS (ASCII with
TIFF header). This option also could be used to "fix" any R=G=B RGB grayscale 
images; simply
convert to grayscale in Photoshop before saving as EPS.

- Dov



> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
> lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott White
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 6:55 AM
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com List
> Subject: Grayscale Images are RGB
> 
> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
> trying to fix my
> grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples to my printer 
> and each and every sample
> he is telling me my text is black but the images are rgb. These are the same 
> images we have used for
> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
> 
> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
> results are not what I
> expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no charge, but I would 
> like to find out why this is
> happening.
> 
> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
> press-quality print setting
> within distiller 9 using my printers recommendation. Create the pdf.
> 
> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
> postscript and then distill
> and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
> 
> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 
> 9 with all the updates.
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swhite at alamark.com

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Dov
Thanks for your reply.
Here's the history. We've been using these same images for years with older 
versions of frame without problems. These images are grayscale .tif files that 
we painstakingly processed over the years. More than 1,000,000 images.
We have done all our catalogs with Frame, first on the mac and then of course 
on windows when the mac was no longer supported. I still keep my mac running 
classic so I can run Frame 7 just in case.

So I don't think the images are in question.

We first started seeing some issues arise in Framemaker 8 and it has since 
moved along to Framemaker 9. The print-quality PDF results with the same 
acrobat settings we had used in the past were no longer giving us valid results.
Our printer has recently been converting our outputs to grayscale and 4-color 
for no charge since that was a simple fix. But for my clients who choose to use 
a different printer, there is a charge for this.

What I have decided to do is find out why settings we used to use for Acrobat 
no longer work in later versions of Frame or Acrobat. I know technology changes 
so I need to find out what I need to do. So far I have made sure I have the 
latest updates for Frame 9, installed the hotfix that Art suggested on the xp 
drive of our iMac, and will incorporate your suggestions as well.

I'm studying your first point about anything other than EPS will come out as 
RGB. I find that interesting that a desktop publishing software app from Adobe 
would not output the correct image results like InDesign. I know our .tif 
images were  output correctly in older versions. I never had the printer give 
me an alert about my images before.

I know we will get to the bottom of this so I can truly understand what is 
happening with files so I can relay that to the clients who use Framemaker with 
our software to print their 1,000-page catalogs.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com




On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Dov Isaacs wrote:

> Two possibilities here ...
> 
> (1)   Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
> to the Adobe PDF
> PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, all 
> grayscale and
> CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a 
> GDI application
> except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.
> 
> (2)   Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
> the various
> options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless you 
> ALSO apply
> the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual grayscale, 
> you will end
> up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.
> 
> R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the K 
> (black) channel
> on most devices and/or with most drivers.
> 
> So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that 
> the image really
> is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:
> 
> The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. 
> This only works for
> FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs 
> associated with NOT using
> the RGB option. (When you don't select the RGB option, FrameMaker uses the 
> PostScript Level 1
> generator from the older UNIX versions of FrameMaker to generate PostScript 
> for distilling.
> I won't comment on that further! :-(  )
> 
> The second option is to open the images in question in Photoshop and resave 
> as EPS (ASCII with
> TIFF header). This option also could be used to "fix" any R=G=B RGB grayscale 
> images; simply
> convert to grayscale in Photoshop before saving as EPS.
> 
>   - Dov
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
>> lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
>> Scott White
>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 6:55 AM
>> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com List
>> Subject: Grayscale Images are RGB
>> 
>> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 
>> 9 trying to fix my
>> grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples to my printer 
>> and each and every sample
>> he is telling me my text is black but the images are rgb. These are the same 
>> images we have used for
>> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
>> 
>> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
>> results are not what I
>> expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no charge, but I would 

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Dov Isaacs]

On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF as 
grayscale.
Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to FrameMaker 9 "save 
as PDF" without
the RGB option.

Unlike InDesign which uses Adobe's internal AGM technology for directly 
generating PostScript
and PDF, FrameMaker is still pretty much a Windows GDI client. Could FrameMaker 
be modified to
work like InDesign? Sure, if Adobe thought that there would be enough revenue 
to justify same.
Quite frankly, if you really need to worry about critical color and graphic 
arts issues and
don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
features, you might
consider migrating to InDesign.

The XP hotfix has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. It only fixes text 
handling issues.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott White [mailto:swhite at alamark.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:45 AM
> To: Dov Isaacs
> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com List; Jason Hauman
> Subject: Re: Grayscale Images are RGB
> 
> Dov
> Thanks for your reply.
> Here's the history. We've been using these same images for years with older 
> versions of frame without
> problems. These images are grayscale .tif files that we painstakingly 
> processed over the years. More
> than 1,000,000 images.
> We have done all our catalogs with Frame, first on the mac and then of course 
> on windows when the mac
> was no longer supported. I still keep my mac running classic so I can run 
> Frame 7 just in case.
> 
> So I don't think the images are in question.
> 
> We first started seeing some issues arise in Framemaker 8 and it has since 
> moved along to Framemaker
> 9. The print-quality PDF results with the same acrobat settings we had used 
> in the past were no longer
> giving us valid results.
> Our printer has recently been converting our outputs to grayscale and 4-color 
> for no charge since that
> was a simple fix. But for my clients who choose to use a different printer, 
> there is a charge for
> this.
> 
> What I have decided to do is find out why settings we used to use for Acrobat 
> no longer work in later
> versions of Frame or Acrobat. I know technology changes so I need to find out 
> what I need to do. So
> far I have made sure I have the latest updates for Frame 9, installed the 
> hotfix that Art suggested on
> the xp drive of our iMac, and will incorporate your suggestions as well.
> 
> I'm studying your first point about anything other than EPS will come out as 
> RGB. I find that
> interesting that a desktop publishing software app from Adobe would not 
> output the correct image
> results like InDesign. I know our .tif images were  output correctly in older 
> versions. I never had
> the printer give me an alert about my images before.
> 
> I know we will get to the bottom of this so I can truly understand what is 
> happening with files so I
> can relay that to the clients who use Framemaker with our software to print 
> their 1,000-page catalogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swhite at alamark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
> > Two possibilities here ...
> >
> > (1) Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
> > to the Adobe PDF
> > PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, 
> > all grayscale and
> > CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a 
> > GDI application
> > except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.
> >
> > (2) Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
> > the various
> > options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless 
> > you ALSO apply
> > the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual 
> > grayscale, you will end
> > up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.
> >
> > R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the 
> > K (black) channel
> > on most devices and/or with most drivers.
> >
> > So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that 
> > the image really
> > is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:
> >
> > The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. 
> > This only works for
> > FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs 
> > associated with NOT using
> > the RGB 

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Jacob Schäffer]

Scott,

I'm quite experienced with this issue and may be able to assist with setting
up a Windows solution that runs smoothly and for most parts compensate for
the poor TIFF implementation FrameMaker users have to deal with.

The solution will be built around our Publi PDF software and is definitely
not free. See
http://grafikhuset.net/PubliPDF/tech_components_optimizer_plugin.html for an
introduction. Especially the "OptimizerRGBImageConversion" variable may be
of interest.

Please contact me off-list if you need assistance.

Best regards / Med venlig hilsen
Jacob Sch?ffer? |? Chief Developer
--
Grafikhuset (House of Graphics)
Paradis All? 22, Raml?se
DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark
Phone: +45 4439 4400
Email: js at grafikhuset.dk
Web: www.grafikhuset.net

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:

>On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF 
>as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to 
>FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if you 
>really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
>features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.

I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed wonder. 
A pr?cis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows FrameMaker 
doesn't and may never'.

Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to migrating 
his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of images, to 
InDesign.

-- 
Steve

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

I will not be doing a major catalog in InDesign. That would take who knows how 
long. Framemaker is the best thing out there for catalogs period.

I have found, with Dov's help, that save as pdf, with the right acrobat 
options, is giving me true grayscale. But I know there are some concerns with 
this process too. I'm still doing some testing with my printer on settings as 
we speak. We are also testing spot color now as that is a major issue with many 
of my clients as they like to use it in the catalog.

I was also explaining to Jacob Schaffer that if I had to tell potential 
customers of our software, that to make Framemaker work you have to buy this 
software and that software to work with our xml dump... Can you imagine how 
much more difficult it would be to make a sale? Most of my clients are not tech 
savy and buy our filemaker solution to print flyers (using InDesign) and 
catalogs (Framemaker) and drive an eCommerce site without them having to be 
experts. If it seemed this software was complicated to run then they would go 
else where. This is why we worked directly with Framemaker years ago to ensure 
our solution worked with what Adobe was providing when it came to Framemaker 
importing our code and allowing our clients to create a cost-effective catalog. 
And it still does, but since the windows-only version came out, and support 
when overseas, Frame has become more and more difficult to meet my customers' 
print needs.

I have to ensure I can properly teach these folks what they need to do and 
expect. Thus the testing continues.


Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com




On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

> At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
>> On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF 
>> as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to 
>> FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if you 
>> really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>> don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
>> features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.
> 
> I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed 
> wonder. A pr?cis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows 
> FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to 
> migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of 
> images, to InDesign.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com
> 
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
> 
> 

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Rick Quatro]

I share your "slack-jawed wonder" with this. FrameMaker seems to be focused
on improvements for a particular market (structured Frame, DITA, topic-based
authoring), while at the same time neglecting an existing market (catalogs
and books with color requirements). A baseline requirement for any
page-layout program is to do color correctly (not to mention a pasteboard,
paragraph rules, baseline shift, ruler guides, "Don't show this again" in
warning dialog boxes, etc.). There is antidotal evidence that even users
moving to structured authoring are moving away from FrameMaker. Because of
FrameMaker's traditional strengths, I have always said that the technical
and long-document publishing market is Adobe's to lose. Unfortunately, their
handling of FrameMaker has been largely self-destructive.

The suggestion to move to InDesign is certainly not appropriate for many
large catalogs, particularly if you are using automation. While InDesign is
very scriptable, its scripting performance (and performance in general) on
large documents is very sluggish.

I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-659-8267
rick at frameexpert.com
www.frameexpert.com

http://www.frameexpert.com/peace/



At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:

>On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence
PDF as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior
to FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if
you really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document
features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.

I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed
wonder. A pr?cis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows
FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.

Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to
migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of
images, to InDesign.

-- 
Steve
___

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Well said Rick.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com




On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Rick Quatro wrote:

> I share your "slack-jawed wonder" with this. FrameMaker seems to be focused
> on improvements for a particular market (structured Frame, DITA, topic-based
> authoring), while at the same time neglecting an existing market (catalogs
> and books with color requirements). A baseline requirement for any
> page-layout program is to do color correctly (not to mention a pasteboard,
> paragraph rules, baseline shift, ruler guides, "Don't show this again" in
> warning dialog boxes, etc.). There is antidotal evidence that even users
> moving to structured authoring are moving away from FrameMaker. Because of
> FrameMaker's traditional strengths, I have always said that the technical
> and long-document publishing market is Adobe's to lose. Unfortunately, their
> handling of FrameMaker has been largely self-destructive.
> 
> The suggestion to move to InDesign is certainly not appropriate for many
> large catalogs, particularly if you are using automation. While InDesign is
> very scriptable, its scripting performance (and performance in general) on
> large documents is very sluggish.
> 
> I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
> if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.
> 
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> 585-659-8267
> rick at frameexpert.com
> www.frameexpert.com
> 
> http://www.frameexpert.com/peace/
> 
> 
> 
> At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
>> On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence
> PDF as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior
> to FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if
> you really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>> don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document
> features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.
> 
> I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed
> wonder. A pr?cis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows
> FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to
> migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of
> images, to InDesign.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ___
> 
> 
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Grayscale Images are RGB

[Steve Rickaby]

At 12:57 -0500 29/1/10, Rick Quatro wrote:

>I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
>if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.

That Jacques guy said he did: the evangelist person.

-- 
Steve

Grayscale Images are RGB

[David Creamer]

>From separate posts

> I will not be doing a major catalog in InDesign. That would take who knows how
> long. Framemaker is the best thing out there for catalogs period.

I know both programs fairly well and could not make that blanket statement.
I would say it depends on the catalog, personnel, and other factors.


> Migrating to InDesign is a *** H U G E *** task and may not be able to
> provide enough functionality. InDesign is fantastic in many aspects, but
> Framemaker definitely has its advantages and is -- for some tasks -- far
> superior to InDesign.

There is a plug-in that can convert MIF files to ID (from dtptools.com).
Of course, with any conversion, there will be some clean up work.

Most people think that ID cannot work with large documents, but I was
recently conversing with users that have produced documents over 2000 pages.

I have a PDF that compares IDCS4, Frame 9, and Quark 8.1:



David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer

Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples 
to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is black but 
the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for years in other 
catalogs with them and they were fine.

I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.

I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
recommendation. Create the pdf.

What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.

We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 9 
with all the updates.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swh...@alamark.com




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SV: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Jacob Schäffer]

Migrating to InDesign is a *** H U G E *** task and may not be able to
provide enough functionality. InDesign is fantastic in many aspects, but
Framemaker definitely has its advantages and is -- for some tasks -- far
superior to InDesign. 

/Jacob

Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Art Campbell]

I know you said you have all updates installed, but it'd be good if
you double-checked for both FM and Acrobat. Also, are you running a
full version of Acrobat, or the limited version installed by Frame?

Then, because you're running under XP, have you installed the
Microsoft hotfix for PostScript printers? Pretty much mandatory if you
haven't -- it fixes a host of problems.
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=952909 -- it applies to all PS
printers, including the logical PDF.

Assuming you have the Acrobat logical printer installed properly,
there isn't a reason NOT to print to PS and then distill manually,
although if you're printing to the logical printer (not using SaveAs),
the result should be the same. (Uh, you're not using SaveAs to create
the PDF, are you?)

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Scott White  wrote:
> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
> trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples 
> to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is black but 
> the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for years in other 
> catalogs with them and they were fine.
>
> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
> results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
> charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.
>
> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
> press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
> recommendation. Create the pdf.
>
> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
> postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
>
> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 
> 9 with all the updates.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swh...@alamark.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
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>
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
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Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Art
Using the limited version installed by frame. I know the updates are there for 
frame, but will have to check the ones for acrobat and the hot fix. I will 
assume no.
That will be a good place to start.
I'm using the print option not save as.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swh...@alamark.com




On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Art Campbell wrote:

> I know you said you have all updates installed, but it'd be good if
> you double-checked for both FM and Acrobat. Also, are you running a
> full version of Acrobat, or the limited version installed by Frame?
> 
> Then, because you're running under XP, have you installed the
> Microsoft hotfix for PostScript printers? Pretty much mandatory if you
> haven't -- it fixes a host of problems.
> http://support.microsoft.com/?id=952909 -- it applies to all PS
> printers, including the logical PDF.
> 
> Assuming you have the Acrobat logical printer installed properly,
> there isn't a reason NOT to print to PS and then distill manually,
> although if you're printing to the logical printer (not using SaveAs),
> the result should be the same. (Uh, you're not using SaveAs to create
> the PDF, are you?)
> 
> Art
> 
> Art Campbell
>   art.campb...@gmail.com
>  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
> Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
>  No disclaimers apply.
>   DoD 358
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Scott White  wrote:
>> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 
>> 9 trying to fix my grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending 
>> samples to my printer and each and every sample he is telling me my text is 
>> black but the images are rgb. These are the same images we have used for 
>> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
>> 
>> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
>> results are not what I expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no 
>> charge, but I would like to find out why this is happening.
>> 
>> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
>> press-quality print setting within distiller 9 using my printers 
>> recommendation. Create the pdf.
>> 
>> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
>> postscript and then distill and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
>> 
>> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and 
>> Framemaker 9 with all the updates.
>> 
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Scott White
>> Media Production & EBC Manager
>> Implementation Coordinator
>> 210-704-8239
>> swh...@alamark.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> 
>> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com.
>> 
>> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>> 
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>> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit 
>> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>> 
>> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>> 
> 
> 

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RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Dov Isaacs]

Two possibilities here ...

(1) Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
to the Adobe PDF
PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, all 
grayscale and
CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a GDI 
application
except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.

(2) Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
the various
options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless you 
ALSO apply
the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual grayscale, 
you will end
up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.

R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the K 
(black) channel
on most devices and/or with most drivers.

So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that the 
image really
is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:

The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. This 
only works for
FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs associated 
with NOT using
the RGB option. (When you don't select the RGB option, FrameMaker uses the 
PostScript Level 1
generator from the older UNIX versions of FrameMaker to generate PostScript for 
distilling.
I won't comment on that further! :-(  )

The second option is to open the images in question in Photoshop and resave as 
EPS (ASCII with
TIFF header). This option also could be used to "fix" any R=G=B RGB grayscale 
images; simply
convert to grayscale in Photoshop before saving as EPS.

- Dov



> -Original Message-
> From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott White
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 6:55 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com List
> Subject: Grayscale Images are RGB
> 
> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 9 
> trying to fix my
> grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples to my printer 
> and each and every sample
> he is telling me my text is black but the images are rgb. These are the same 
> images we have used for
> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
> 
> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
> results are not what I
> expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no charge, but I would 
> like to find out why this is
> happening.
> 
> I print my Frame file to the acrobat printer option. I have a specific, 
> press-quality print setting
> within distiller 9 using my printers recommendation. Create the pdf.
> 
> What I did in the past with older versions of Frame is I would print to 
> postscript and then distill
> and generate my pdf that way. No problems.
> 
> We are running this on a mac through parallels. Windows XP Pro and Framemaker 
> 9 with all the updates.
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swh...@alamark.com
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Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Dov
Thanks for your reply.
Here's the history. We've been using these same images for years with older 
versions of frame without problems. These images are grayscale .tif files that 
we painstakingly processed over the years. More than 1,000,000 images.
We have done all our catalogs with Frame, first on the mac and then of course 
on windows when the mac was no longer supported. I still keep my mac running 
classic so I can run Frame 7 just in case.

So I don't think the images are in question.

We first started seeing some issues arise in Framemaker 8 and it has since 
moved along to Framemaker 9. The print-quality PDF results with the same 
acrobat settings we had used in the past were no longer giving us valid results.
Our printer has recently been converting our outputs to grayscale and 4-color 
for no charge since that was a simple fix. But for my clients who choose to use 
a different printer, there is a charge for this.

What I have decided to do is find out why settings we used to use for Acrobat 
no longer work in later versions of Frame or Acrobat. I know technology changes 
so I need to find out what I need to do. So far I have made sure I have the 
latest updates for Frame 9, installed the hotfix that Art suggested on the xp 
drive of our iMac, and will incorporate your suggestions as well.

I'm studying your first point about anything other than EPS will come out as 
RGB. I find that interesting that a desktop publishing software app from Adobe 
would not output the correct image results like InDesign. I know our .tif 
images were  output correctly in older versions. I never had the printer give 
me an alert about my images before.

I know we will get to the bottom of this so I can truly understand what is 
happening with files so I can relay that to the clients who use Framemaker with 
our software to print their 1,000-page catalogs.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swh...@alamark.com




On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Dov Isaacs wrote:

> Two possibilities here ...
> 
> (1)   Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
> to the Adobe PDF
> PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, all 
> grayscale and
> CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a 
> GDI application
> except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.
> 
> (2)   Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
> the various
> options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless you 
> ALSO apply
> the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual grayscale, 
> you will end
> up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.
> 
> R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the K 
> (black) channel
> on most devices and/or with most drivers.
> 
> So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that 
> the image really
> is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:
> 
> The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. 
> This only works for
> FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs 
> associated with NOT using
> the RGB option. (When you don't select the RGB option, FrameMaker uses the 
> PostScript Level 1
> generator from the older UNIX versions of FrameMaker to generate PostScript 
> for distilling.
> I won't comment on that further! :-(  )
> 
> The second option is to open the images in question in Photoshop and resave 
> as EPS (ASCII with
> TIFF header). This option also could be used to "fix" any R=G=B RGB grayscale 
> images; simply
> convert to grayscale in Photoshop before saving as EPS.
> 
>   - Dov
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
>> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
>> Scott White
>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 6:55 AM
>> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com List
>> Subject: Grayscale Images are RGB
>> 
>> I've been playing with the settings with Acrobat Distiller 9 and Framemaker 
>> 9 trying to fix my
>> grayscale images coming out rgb. I have been sending samples to my printer 
>> and each and every sample
>> he is telling me my text is black but the images are rgb. These are the same 
>> images we have used for
>> years in other catalogs with them and they were fine.
>> 
>> I have followed his step-by-step acrobat distiller settings for 9 and the 
>> results are not what I
>> expect. He said he can convert the files for me at no charge, but I would 
>> li

RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Dov Isaacs]

On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF as 
grayscale.
Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to FrameMaker 9 "save 
as PDF" without
the RGB option.

Unlike InDesign which uses Adobe's internal AGM technology for directly 
generating PostScript
and PDF, FrameMaker is still pretty much a Windows GDI client. Could FrameMaker 
be modified to
work like InDesign? Sure, if Adobe thought that there would be enough revenue 
to justify same.
Quite frankly, if you really need to worry about critical color and graphic 
arts issues and
don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
features, you might
consider migrating to InDesign.

The XP hotfix has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. It only fixes text 
handling issues.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott White [mailto:swh...@alamark.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:45 AM
> To: Dov Isaacs
> Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com List; Jason Hauman
> Subject: Re: Grayscale Images are RGB
> 
> Dov
> Thanks for your reply.
> Here's the history. We've been using these same images for years with older 
> versions of frame without
> problems. These images are grayscale .tif files that we painstakingly 
> processed over the years. More
> than 1,000,000 images.
> We have done all our catalogs with Frame, first on the mac and then of course 
> on windows when the mac
> was no longer supported. I still keep my mac running classic so I can run 
> Frame 7 just in case.
> 
> So I don't think the images are in question.
> 
> We first started seeing some issues arise in Framemaker 8 and it has since 
> moved along to Framemaker
> 9. The print-quality PDF results with the same acrobat settings we had used 
> in the past were no longer
> giving us valid results.
> Our printer has recently been converting our outputs to grayscale and 4-color 
> for no charge since that
> was a simple fix. But for my clients who choose to use a different printer, 
> there is a charge for
> this.
> 
> What I have decided to do is find out why settings we used to use for Acrobat 
> no longer work in later
> versions of Frame or Acrobat. I know technology changes so I need to find out 
> what I need to do. So
> far I have made sure I have the latest updates for Frame 9, installed the 
> hotfix that Art suggested on
> the xp drive of our iMac, and will incorporate your suggestions as well.
> 
> I'm studying your first point about anything other than EPS will come out as 
> RGB. I find that
> interesting that a desktop publishing software app from Adobe would not 
> output the correct image
> results like InDesign. I know our .tif images were  output correctly in older 
> versions. I never had
> the printer give me an alert about my images before.
> 
> I know we will get to the bottom of this so I can truly understand what is 
> happening with files so I
> can relay that to the clients who use Framemaker with our software to print 
> their 1,000-page catalogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott White
> Media Production & EBC Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swh...@alamark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
> > Two possibilities here ...
> >
> > (1) Assuming you are using the "RGB option" for "save as PDF" or printing 
> > to the Adobe PDF
> > PostScript printer driver instance, except for images are in EPS format, 
> > all grayscale and
> > CMYK images imported into FrameMaker will come out as RGB. FrameMaker is a 
> > GDI application
> > except when NOT using the "save as PDF" without the RGB option.
> >
> > (2) Many images that users THINK are grayscale are actually RGB. When using 
> > the various
> > options in Photoshop to convert a color image to black and white, unless 
> > you ALSO apply
> > the option to convert what looks like a grayscale image to actual 
> > grayscale, you will end
> > up with an RGB image in which for every pixel R=G=B in value.
> >
> > R=G=B "grayscale" RGB images typically do not properly print with only the 
> > K (black) channel
> > on most devices and/or with most drivers.
> >
> > So, UNFORTUNATELY, with FrameMaker you have two options, both assuming that 
> > the image really
> > is grayscale and not an R=G=B RGB image:
> >
> > The first option is to use "save as PDF" and don't select the RGB option. 
> > This only works for
> > FrameMaker 9 and may be problematic if you run into one of the bugs 
> > associated with NOT using
> > the RGB option.

RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Jacob Schäffer]

Scott,

I'm quite experienced with this issue and may be able to assist with setting
up a Windows solution that runs smoothly and for most parts compensate for
the poor TIFF implementation FrameMaker users have to deal with.

The solution will be built around our Publi PDF software and is definitely
not free. See
http://grafikhuset.net/PubliPDF/tech_components_optimizer_plugin.html for an
introduction. Especially the "OptimizerRGBImageConversion" variable may be
of interest.

Please contact me off-list if you need assistance.

Best regards / Med venlig hilsen
Jacob Schäffer  |  Chief Developer
--
Grafikhuset (House of Graphics)
Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse
DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark
Phone: +45 4439 4400
Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk
Web: www.grafikhuset.net

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RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:

>On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF 
>as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to 
>FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if you 
>really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
>features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.

I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed wonder. 
A précis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows FrameMaker 
doesn't and may never'.

Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to migrating 
his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of images, to 
InDesign.

-- 
Steve
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SV: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Jacob Schäffer]

Migrating to InDesign is a *** H U G E *** task and may not be able to
provide enough functionality. InDesign is fantastic in many aspects, but
Framemaker definitely has its advantages and is -- for some tasks -- far
superior to InDesign. 

/Jacob



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Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

I will not be doing a major catalog in InDesign. That would take who knows how 
long. Framemaker is the best thing out there for catalogs period.

I have found, with Dov's help, that save as pdf, with the right acrobat 
options, is giving me true grayscale. But I know there are some concerns with 
this process too. I'm still doing some testing with my printer on settings as 
we speak. We are also testing spot color now as that is a major issue with many 
of my clients as they like to use it in the catalog.

I was also explaining to Jacob Schaffer that if I had to tell potential 
customers of our software, that to make Framemaker work you have to buy this 
software and that software to work with our xml dump... Can you imagine how 
much more difficult it would be to make a sale? Most of my clients are not tech 
savy and buy our filemaker solution to print flyers (using InDesign) and 
catalogs (Framemaker) and drive an eCommerce site without them having to be 
experts. If it seemed this software was complicated to run then they would go 
else where. This is why we worked directly with Framemaker years ago to ensure 
our solution worked with what Adobe was providing when it came to Framemaker 
importing our code and allowing our clients to create a cost-effective catalog. 
And it still does, but since the windows-only version came out, and support 
when overseas, Frame has become more and more difficult to meet my customers' 
print needs.

I have to ensure I can properly teach these folks what they need to do and 
expect. Thus the testing continues.


Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swh...@alamark.com




On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

> At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
>> On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence PDF 
>> as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior to 
>> FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if you 
>> really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>> don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document 
>> features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.
> 
> I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed 
> wonder. A précis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows 
> FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to 
> migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of 
> images, to InDesign.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ___
> 
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RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Rick Quatro]

I share your "slack-jawed wonder" with this. FrameMaker seems to be focused
on improvements for a particular market (structured Frame, DITA, topic-based
authoring), while at the same time neglecting an existing market (catalogs
and books with color requirements). A baseline requirement for any
page-layout program is to do color correctly (not to mention a pasteboard,
paragraph rules, baseline shift, ruler guides, "Don't show this again" in
warning dialog boxes, etc.). There is antidotal evidence that even users
moving to structured authoring are moving away from FrameMaker. Because of
FrameMaker's traditional strengths, I have always said that the technical
and long-document publishing market is Adobe's to lose. Unfortunately, their
handling of FrameMaker has been largely self-destructive.

The suggestion to move to InDesign is certainly not appropriate for many
large catalogs, particularly if you are using automation. While InDesign is
very scriptable, its scripting performance (and performance in general) on
large documents is very sluggish.

I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-659-8267
r...@frameexpert.com
www.frameexpert.com

http://www.frameexpert.com/peace/



At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:

>On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence
PDF as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior
to FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if
you really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document
features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.

I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed
wonder. A précis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows
FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.

Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to
migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of
images, to InDesign.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Scott White]

Well said Rick.



Scott White
Media Production & EBC Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swh...@alamark.com




On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Rick Quatro wrote:

> I share your "slack-jawed wonder" with this. FrameMaker seems to be focused
> on improvements for a particular market (structured Frame, DITA, topic-based
> authoring), while at the same time neglecting an existing market (catalogs
> and books with color requirements). A baseline requirement for any
> page-layout program is to do color correctly (not to mention a pasteboard,
> paragraph rules, baseline shift, ruler guides, "Don't show this again" in
> warning dialog boxes, etc.). There is antidotal evidence that even users
> moving to structured authoring are moving away from FrameMaker. Because of
> FrameMaker's traditional strengths, I have always said that the technical
> and long-document publishing market is Adobe's to lose. Unfortunately, their
> handling of FrameMaker has been largely self-destructive.
> 
> The suggestion to move to InDesign is certainly not appropriate for many
> large catalogs, particularly if you are using automation. While InDesign is
> very scriptable, its scripting performance (and performance in general) on
> large documents is very sluggish.
> 
> I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
> if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.
> 
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> 585-659-8267
> r...@frameexpert.com
> www.frameexpert.com
> 
> http://www.frameexpert.com/peace/
> 
> 
> 
> At 09:58 -0800 28/1/10, Dov Isaacs wrote:
> 
>> On the Macintosh, real grayscale TIFF came out into PostScript and hence
> PDF as grayscale. Other than for EPS, this never happened on Windows prior
> to FrameMaker 9 "save as PDF" without the RGB option Quite frankly, if
> you really need to worry about critical color and graphic arts issues and
>> don't need certain FrameMaker creature comforts and structured document
> features, you might consider migrating to InDesign.
> 
> I have been following this thread with a certain amount of slack-jawed
> wonder. A précis seems to be 'Mac FrameMaker did color right, Windows
> FrameMaker doesn't and may never'.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. I doubt whether Scott's looking forward to
> migrating his client's catalogs, with thousands of pages and millions of
> images, to InDesign.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ___
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swh...@alamark.com.
> 
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
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> 
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
> 
> 

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RE: Grayscale Images are RGB

[Steve Rickaby]

At 12:57 -0500 29/1/10, Rick Quatro wrote:

>I realize that Dov has nothing directly to do with FrameMaker, but I wonder
>if any of the FrameMaker people at Adobe read this list.

That Jacques guy said he did: the evangelist person.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Grayscale Images are RGB

[David Creamer]

>From separate posts

> I will not be doing a major catalog in InDesign. That would take who knows how
> long. Framemaker is the best thing out there for catalogs period.

I know both programs fairly well and could not make that blanket statement.
I would say it depends on the catalog, personnel, and other factors.


> Migrating to InDesign is a *** H U G E *** task and may not be able to
> provide enough functionality. InDesign is fantastic in many aspects, but
> Framemaker definitely has its advantages and is -- for some tasks -- far
> superior to InDesign.

There is a plug-in that can convert MIF files to ID (from dtptools.com).
Of course, with any conversion, there will be some clean up work.

Most people think that ID cannot work with large documents, but I was
recently conversing with users that have produced documents over 2000 pages.

I have a PDF that compares IDCS4, Frame 9, and Quark 8.1:



David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer


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