RE: OT: Translation cost comparison (Alison Craig)

[diaconu oana]

Hi Alison,

Comparing the cost of translating Word files to translating FrameMaker files, 
it 
can be up to 30-50% cheaper to translate FrameMaker files due to the 
considerable short DTP time (FrameMaker files are better structured and 
formatted and this is the reason why you get better leverage with *.fm files 
than with doc files). Switching to DITA cuts the costs even more. The advantage 
is you can reuse the content for creating new manuals faster.

Alison, the difference in word count you got from your translation providers is 
very strange, there is no way you can get bigger word count in FrameMaker than 
in MS Word; and more, the 8,000 words difference is way too big (it is possible 
some LSP also counted the numbers which normally are not counted). 


I work for a reputable LSP which translates large FrameMaker medical manuals 
frequently (over 200 pages manuals into up to 30 languages). We even do file 
conversion from MS Word into FrameMaker. You can write me a private message and 
we can offer you the most accurate word count. It doesn't hurt to give it a 
shot.

 Regards,
Oana






From: "framers-requ...@lists.frameusers.com" 

To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 8:00:00 PM
Subject: framers Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: OT: Translation cost comparison (beth.tr...@verizon.net)
   2. RE: OT: Translation cost comparison (Alison Craig)
   3. RE: Translation cost comparison (Bill Nilson)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:52:24 -0600 (CST)
From: beth.tr...@verizon.net
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison
Message-ID: <47258.182772.1298580744046.JavaMail.root@vznit170130>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





***


--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:16:18 -0800
From: Alison Craig 
To: "beth.tr...@verizon.net" ,
    "framers@lists.frameusers.com" 
Subject: RE: OT: Translation cost comparison
Message-ID:
<17474827509158478ee10bc6b977a3e30acd9a0...@exchange.ultrasonix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Actually, in my case, I was only talking about word cost. This was borne out by 
the detailed quotes I received. Other fees were accounted for under different 
line items (any reputable LSP should do it this way so you can see what is 
involved in a job and what the associated costs are).

I also did a large RFQ about 15 months ago with 11 different ISO qualified, 
medical device LSPs and even though they were all given *exactly* the same set 
of directions, the same TM and the same FM-based file set, the word counts were 
all over the place. Counts for New Words alone ranged from a low of 27,863 to a 
high of 36,305. That kind of discrepancy adds up quickly. 


FYI: The MS Word equivalent number was 28,239.

Alison


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
beth.tr...@verizon.net
Sent: February 24, 2011 12:52 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





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OT: Translation cost comparison (Alison Craig)

[diaconu oana]

Hi Alison,

Comparing the cost of translating Word files to translating FrameMaker files, 
it 
can be up to 30-50% cheaper to translate FrameMaker files due to the 
considerable short DTP time (FrameMaker files are better structured and 
formatted and this is the reason why you get better leverage with *.fm files 
than with doc files). Switching to DITA cuts the costs even more. The advantage 
is you can reuse the content for creating new manuals faster.

Alison, the difference in word count you got from your translation providers is 
very strange, there is no way you can get bigger word count in FrameMaker than 
in MS Word; and more, the 8,000 words difference is way too big (it is possible 
some LSP also counted the numbers which normally are not counted). 


I work for a reputable LSP which translates large FrameMaker medical manuals 
frequently (over 200 pages manuals into up to 30 languages). We even do file 
conversion from MS Word into FrameMaker. You can write me a private message and 
we can offer you the most accurate word count. It doesn't hurt to give it a 
shot.

 Regards,
Oana






From: "framers-requ...@lists.frameusers.com" 

To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 8:00:00 PM
Subject: framers Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24

Send framers mailing list submissions to
framers at lists.frameusers.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of framers digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: OT: Translation cost comparison (beth.tripp at verizon.net)
   2. RE: OT: Translation cost comparison (Alison Craig)
   3. RE: Translation cost comparison (Bill Nilson)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:52:24 -0600 (CST)
From: beth.tr...@verizon.net
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison
Message-ID: <47258.182772.1298580744046.JavaMail.root at vznit170130>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





***


--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:16:18 -0800
From: Alison Craig 
To: "beth.tripp at verizon.net" ,
    "framers at lists.frameusers.com" 
Subject: RE: OT: Translation cost comparison
Message-ID:
<17474827509158478EE10BC6B977A3E30ACD9A07AE at exchange.ultrasonix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Actually, in my case, I was only talking about word cost. This was borne out by 
the detailed quotes I received. Other fees were accounted for under different 
line items (any reputable LSP should do it this way so you can see what is 
involved in a job and what the associated costs are).

I also did a large RFQ about 15 months ago with 11 different ISO qualified, 
medical device LSPs and even though they were all given *exactly* the same set 
of directions, the same TM and the same FM-based file set, the word counts were 
all over the place. Counts for New Words alone ranged from a low of 27,863 to a 
high of 36,305. That kind of discrepancy adds up quickly. 


FYI: The MS Word equivalent number was 28,239.

Alison


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
beth.tripp at verizon.net
Sent: February 24, 2011 12:52 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





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RE: OT: Translation cost comparison

[Alison Craig]

Actually, in my case, I was only talking about word cost. This was borne out by 
the detailed quotes I received. Other fees were accounted for under different 
line items (any reputable LSP should do it this way so you can see what is 
involved in a job and what the associated costs are).

I also did a large RFQ about 15 months ago with 11 different ISO qualified, 
medical device LSPs and even though they were all given *exactly* the same set 
of directions, the same TM and the same FM-based file set, the word counts were 
all over the place. Counts for New Words alone ranged from a low of 27,863 to a 
high of 36,305. That kind of discrepancy adds up quickly. 

FYI: The MS Word equivalent number was 28,239.

Alison


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of 
beth.tr...@verizon.net
Sent: February 24, 2011 12:52 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





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OT: Translation cost comparison

[Alison Craig]

Actually, in my case, I was only talking about word cost. This was borne out by 
the detailed quotes I received. Other fees were accounted for under different 
line items (any reputable LSP should do it this way so you can see what is 
involved in a job and what the associated costs are).

I also did a large RFQ about 15 months ago with 11 different ISO qualified, 
medical device LSPs and even though they were all given *exactly* the same set 
of directions, the same TM and the same FM-based file set, the word counts were 
all over the place. Counts for New Words alone ranged from a low of 27,863 to a 
high of 36,305. That kind of discrepancy adds up quickly. 

FYI: The MS Word equivalent number was 28,239.

Alison


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of beth.tr...@verizon.net
Sent: February 24, 2011 12:52 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





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Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

[beth . tripp]

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





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OT: Translation cost comparison

[mathieu jacquet]

Hi Roy,

prices should be the same as long as you pay a "per word" price. Whether your 
document is written in Word or Frame does not matter, it contains the same 
number of words.
Vendors charging extra cost for "layout", "image translating" etc. just try to 
add as many items as they can on the bill, but this only shows they do not know 
how to handle graphics, Visio docs etc.

I am a translator myself, and I only stick to one thing: the number of words I 
translate, whether they come from a pdf, a PPT, Frame, Doc or any other source 
doc, and at a fixed rate. And if I do not know how to handle it, I recommend a 
colleague who knows how to!

Cheers,
Mathieu (Toulouse, France).

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:15:56 -0800
From: roy_g_le...@yahoo.com
Subject: OT: Translation cost comparison
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com

I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that compares 
translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord documents. 
Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not supply a source 
for the data.
Thanks,
Roy




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OT: Translation cost comparison

[Bill Swallow]

Quite a few factors go into a full soup to nuts translation of a document.
Software used is rarely one of them, as that can be obtained or worked
around as necessary. One of the big gotchas is cleanliness of source
language files. My guess is that your anecdotal reference pertains to usual
use of the two tools, where Frame is often used by professional writers who
adhere to style and templates while Word... well... we all have heard horror
stories.

I'm happy to chat with you at length and answer any specific questions you
might have.

Bill

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Roy Lewis  wrote:

> I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that
> compares translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord
> documents. Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not
> supply a source for the data.
> Thanks,
> Roy
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as techcommdood at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
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OT: Translation cost comparison

[beth.tr...@verizon.net]

It is not the word count but the amount of time to "round trip" the document, 
engineering costs from Frame to xml and back. The second part of that is the 
DTP. Frame does a cleaner round-trip than word so less DTP time for cleaning up 
the formatting.

I hope that helps. We translate into 29 languages where I work and we cut the 
cost by about 30 to 50% using Frame and that was before we switched to DITA.

Just my .02,

Beth





***

Re: OT: Translation cost comparison

[Bill Swallow]

Quite a few factors go into a full soup to nuts translation of a document.
Software used is rarely one of them, as that can be obtained or worked
around as necessary. One of the big gotchas is cleanliness of source
language files. My guess is that your anecdotal reference pertains to usual
use of the two tools, where Frame is often used by professional writers who
adhere to style and templates while Word... well... we all have heard horror
stories.

I'm happy to chat with you at length and answer any specific questions you
might have.

Bill

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Roy Lewis  wrote:

> I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that
> compares translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord
> documents. Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not
> supply a source for the data.
> Thanks,
> Roy
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as techcommd...@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/techcommdood%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
>


-- 
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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RE: OT: Translation cost comparison

[mathieu jacquet]

Hi Roy,

prices should be the same as long as you pay a "per word" price. Whether your 
document is written in Word or Frame does not matter, it contains the same 
number of words.
Vendors charging extra cost for "layout", "image translating" etc. just try to 
add as many items as they can on the bill, but this only shows they do not know 
how to handle graphics, Visio docs etc.

I am a translator myself, and I only stick to one thing: the number of words I 
translate, whether they come from a pdf, a PPT, Frame, Doc or any other source 
doc, and at a fixed rate. And if I do not know how to handle it, I recommend a 
colleague who knows how to!

Cheers,
Mathieu (Toulouse, France).

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:15:56 -0800
From: roy_g_le...@yahoo.com
Subject: OT: Translation cost comparison
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com

I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that compares 
translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord documents. 
Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not supply a source 
for the data.
Thanks,
Roy



  
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OT: Translation cost comparison

[Roy Lewis]

I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that compares 
translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord documents. 
Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not supply a source 
for the data.
Thanks,
Roy



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OT: Translation cost comparison

[Roy Lewis]

I apologize for going off topic but can anyone point to figures that compares 
translation costs for Framemaker documents compared to MSWord documents. 
Someone told me Frame was generally cheaper, but they could not supply a source 
for the data.
Thanks,
Roy




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