Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Thanks, Art. You're right, I'm still warped back in time to the concept that 
Vista is the new kid on the block with all the inherent "don't buy it until 
they work the bugs out" cloud.

My main client has UNIX/Linux servers, and I'll be setting up a server at home 
whenever the basement finish-out project is, well, finished. Whether I set that 
up as a Linux server or a Microsoft server is yet undecided, but I'm leaning 
toward Linux for cost and resource/overhead reasons. Regardless of the laptop 
OS, I'll still be using mostly PC desktops in our home network (currently 5 
PCs), so I was thinking Linux would be the more flexible server setup.

Seems like I have heard of FM for UNIX, but it seems a blue moon. Is that like 
the FM for Mac, also got end-life'd? If so, the idea of a Linux laptop would 
probably carry the same liabilities as a Mac laptop? 

Either way, does anyone have experience sharing currently active FM files 
between users who run FM in different operating systems?

I don't know why I had the impression that Macs are faster systems than PCs? Is 
that just some grassroots advertising campaign? The attractive thing to me 
about Macs is the graphics capabilities and the fact that I have kids in school 
who could benefit from it when I trade up again (which I typically do every 
couple of years at a minimum, to keep on the higher end of available 
performance). I don't really get into the music side of electronics at all.

I had not heard Dell had a next-day replacement. That is good to know. Of 
course, it usually takes about 2 weeks for me to get all the programs loaded up 
and user settings tweaked out anyway, and I wouldn't be able to just image a 
hard drive over if I have to move to Vista. For that matter, I have seen too 
many issues with Adobe products in general for me to use the old standby of 
keeping a recent drive image as a backup in case of catastrophic failure. Shame 
- that certainly was the fastest way to recover. Surely there's a faster way to 
config and tweak out FM... I guess I can just copy the maker.ini and fminit and 
plugins directories to a customization CD?

 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: Art Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Rene,

You're sort of ignoring the fact that Vista is past the first ship
early adopter milepost. It's a relatively known quantity, and the
amount of twiddling ...

Last I heard, Mac's market share has crept up to about 3% of business
systems... so while you may be able to make it a viable solution, you're
going to spend more time twiddling a dual boot or emulation
environment to run Windows. And pay more for the processing power, but
it may be worth it to you.

So if you're looking recommendations for a Windows laptop, I'd go with
an upper level Dell with next-day replacement...
look at the ruggedized models put out by Panasonic, Dell, and some
other vendors, although I don't have any personal experience with
those models.

Art
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Rene:

Windows XP official support is supposed to end soon.

Windows XP won't be shipped with Intel Macs after the end of June, I
believe. I think the same applies to PCs.

So, Vista is not just a preference, it's a deadline.

There's no compelling reason to avoid an XP-based machine. By this
time in its life, there are few bus remaining to be fixed. A good
virus-protection application should protect your system, so the
discontinuing of MS Security updates shouldn't have an effect on
working.

If the only problems on your current laptop are lack of resources, or
messed-upness from long use installing/uninstalling/updating, etc, you
could consider a new hard drive, more RAM, and deactivating the
necessary applications, then reinstalling XP on the new drive,
copying, reinstalling, activating. If the machine's resources are
maxed out, then a new PC or MacTel with XP while it's still available
is a logical choice.

HTH
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Rene Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so it's 
> getting time to start the process of identifying the next workhorse for me. 
> (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very heavily. Any testimonials of 
> your laptop successes are more than welcome!)
>
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out, and I 
> really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping with Vista and 
> all the exponentially increased hassle factor that will entail. Frankly, I 
> don't have time to spend 30 minutes per product just to load the software and 
> get it functional by jumping through all the hoops required now. I "get" that 
> it's piracy protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to 
> circumvent any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and 
> purse are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
> I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their laptops, and 
> they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by Unix/Linux and open 
> source development. But, then I get the cold water splashing in the face: the 
> majority of my computer use is work related, and the majority of that work is 
> done in FrameMaker, and FM seems viable only in PC world.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be? If I'm 
> going to continue working with clients whose environment, architecture, 
> workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker, am I forced to concede 
> to all the baggage that comes with the PC world? Or is there a viable way to 
> use FrameMaker on a new Apple laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, 
> seamlessly with FM files saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk 
> hosing anything in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
> ___
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Art Campbell]

Rene,

You're sort of ignoring the fact that Vista is past the first ship
early adopter milepost. It's a relatively known quantity, and the
amount of twiddling you need to do is no where near 30 minutes per
product. Frame 8 supports/runs under Vista. And products that are not
already certified as Vista compatible will be in their forthcoming
releases.

Last I heard, Mac's market share has crept up to about 3% of business
systems; the rate of adoption seems to be driven by people using them
for personal stuff (Apple is one of the largest music distributors
now... so while you may be able to make it a viable solution, you're
going to spend more time twiddling a dual boot or emulation
environment to run Windows. And pay more for the processing power, but
it may be worth it to you.

Linux/UNIX is certainly viable, especially if you're one of the IT
guys who's recommending it.
I use it for a server, and might for a second desktop system.

So if you're looking recommendations for a Windows laptop, I'd go with
an upper level Dell with next-day replacement, just in case. I've been
working on a company-provided IBM/Lenovo for a while, and that's also
been mechanically stable. If you're serious about being rough on them,
look at the ruggedized models put out by Panasonic, Dell, and some
other vendors, although I don't have any personal experience with
those models.

Art


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Rene Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so it's 
> getting time to start the process of identifying the next workhorse for me. 
> (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very heavily. Any testimonials of 
> your laptop successes are more than welcome!)
>
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out, and I 
> really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping with Vista and 
> all the exponentially increased hassle factor that will entail. Frankly, I 
> don't have time to spend 30 minutes per product just to load the software and 
> get it functional by jumping through all the hoops required now. I "get" that 
> it's piracy protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to 
> circumvent any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and 
> purse are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
> I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their laptops, and 
> they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by Unix/Linux and open 
> source development. But, then I get the cold water splashing in the face: the 
> majority of my computer use is work related, and the majority of that work is 
> done in FrameMaker, and FM seems viable only in PC world.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be? If I'm 
> going to continue working with clients whose environment, architecture, 
> workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker, am I forced to concede 
> to all the baggage that comes with the PC world? Or is there a viable way to 
> use FrameMaker on a new Apple laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, 
> seamlessly with FM files saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk 
> hosing anything in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
> ___



-- 
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Thanks! July 2nd is closer to my funding availability than this week is.  :o)   
I have used Dell desktops, and I have borrowed a Dell Latitude from time to 
time. I also used to own an IBM ThinkPad (which I loved, although it was almost 
prohibitively proprietary and heavy as lead). I saw a Dell laptop recently that 
had a swivel screen and was purported to be drop-tested for durability, but I 
have no clue what model it was. My current laptop is an Alienware, because it 
was the most bang for the buck that I could get with a 10-key. (Yeah, 
accounting background plus tech writing vocation makes for a rather interesting 
keyboard usage...and about half the letters rubbed off inside of a year...)

 
Rene L. Stephenson


- Original Message 
From: Stuart Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I don't know how you feel about Dell hardware etc., and I have no 
experience with their laptops myself, but until July 2 you can still 
order the Vostro models with WinXP installed.

best,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Pat Christenson]

I run FrameMaker on my Mac laptop on a Windows virtual machine using  
Parallels software. It's a little slower than in a straight Windows  
environment but worth it to me because FrameMaker is the only thing I  
need Windows for. I run everything else in the Mac environment and  
share files between the two with no problems.

VMware makes a similar product called Fusion but I haven't used it.

Pat Christenson

On Jun 19, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Rene Stephenson wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so  
> it's getting time to start the process of identifying the next  
> workhorse for me. (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very  
> heavily. Any testimonials of your laptop successes are more than  
> welcome!)
>
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,  
> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping  
> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that  
> will entail. Frankly, I don't have time to spend 30 minutes per  
> product just to load the software and get it functional by jumping  
> through all the hoops required now. I "get" that it's piracy  
> protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to circumvent  
> any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and purse  
> are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
> I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their  
> laptops, and they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by  
> Unix/Linux and open source development. But, then I get the cold  
> water splashing in the face: the majority of my computer use is  
> work related, and the majority of that work is done in FrameMaker,  
> and FM seems viable only in PC world.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be?  
> If I'm going to continue working with clients whose environment,  
> architecture, workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker,  
> am I forced to concede to all the baggage that comes with the PC  
> world? Or is there a viable way to use FrameMaker on a new Apple  
> laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, seamlessly with FM  
> files saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk hosing  
> anything in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/pxenson 
> %40comcast.net
>
> Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Stuart Rogers]

Rene Stephenson wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so
> it's getting time to start the process of identifying the next
> workhorse for me. (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very
> heavily. Any testimonials of your laptop successes are more than
> welcome!)
> 
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,
> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping
> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that
> will entail. 



I don't know how you feel about Dell hardware etc., and I have no 
experience with their laptops myself, but until July 2 you can still 
order the Vostro models with WinXP installed.

best,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

In matters of politics, I never believe anything until it's officially
denied.
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Kelly McDaniel]

> I don't know why I had the impression that Macs are faster systems
than PCs? 

That impression may have come from an article in PC World...Kelly.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136649-page,3-c,notebooks/article.html

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rene
> Stephenson
> Sent: 2008-06-19 10:30
> To: Art Campbell
> Cc: FrameUsers List
> Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions
> 
> Thanks, Art. You're right, I'm still warped back in time to the
concept that Vista is the new kid on the block with all the
> inherent "don't buy it until they work the bugs out" cloud.
> 
> My main client has UNIX/Linux servers, and I'll be setting up a server
at home whenever the basement finish-out project is,
> well, finished. Whether I set that up as a Linux server or a Microsoft
server is yet undecided, but I'm leaning toward Linux for
> cost and resource/overhead reasons. Regardless of the laptop OS, I'll
still be using mostly PC desktops in our home network
> (currently 5 PCs), so I was thinking Linux would be the more flexible
server setup.
> 
> Seems like I have heard of FM for UNIX, but it seems a blue moon. Is
that like the FM for Mac, also got end-life'd? If so, the
> idea of a Linux laptop would probably carry the same liabilities as a
Mac laptop?
> 
> Either way, does anyone have experience sharing currently active FM
files between users who run FM in different operating
> systems?
> 
> I don't know why I had the impression that Macs are faster systems
than PCs? Is that just some grassroots advertising
> campaign? The attractive thing to me about Macs is the graphics
capabilities and the fact that I have kids in school who could
> benefit from it when I trade up again (which I typically do every
couple of years at a minimum, to keep on the higher end of
> available performance). I don't really get into the music side of
electronics at all.
> 
> I had not heard Dell had a next-day replacement. That is good to know.
Of course, it usually takes about 2 weeks for me to
> get all the programs loaded up and user settings tweaked out anyway,
and I wouldn't be able to just image a hard drive over
> if I have to move to Vista. For that matter, I have seen too many
issues with Adobe products in general for me to use the old
> standby of keeping a recent drive image as a backup in case of
catastrophic failure. Shame - that certainly was the fastest way
> to recover. Surely there's a faster way to config and tweak out FM...
I guess I can just copy the maker.ini and fminit and
> plugins directories to a customization CD?
> 
> 
> Rene L. Stephenson
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message 
> From: Art Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Rene,
> 
> You're sort of ignoring the fact that Vista is past the first ship
> early adopter milepost. It's a relatively known quantity, and the
> amount of twiddling ...
> 
> Last I heard, Mac's market share has crept up to about 3% of business
> systems... so while you may be able to make it a viable solution,
you're
> going to spend more time twiddling a dual boot or emulation
> environment to run Windows. And pay more for the processing power, but
> it may be worth it to you.
> 
> So if you're looking recommendations for a Windows laptop, I'd go with
> an upper level Dell with next-day replacement...
> look at the ruggedized models put out by Panasonic, Dell, and some
> other vendors, although I don't have any personal experience with
> those models.
> 
> Art
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> or visit
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech.
com
> 
> Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Thanks, Peter. I was one of the daring few who jumped into the first version of 
the then newly available laptop dual core Intel chipset. Unfortunately, that 
chipset was discontinued after 6 weeks' production due to lack of support for 
power save features. If I had been more cunning, I would have negotiated a 
restock at the time. This idiosyncrasy has been the bane of my laptop 
usage...well, that and the fact that the battery doesn't last more than an hour 
or so. The video card is dedicated, but it also generates a TON of heat, and 
there have been a host of problems cropping up with that heat at the root of 
the issue. Plus, it doesn't help that it has been dropped and slung onto the 
floorboard due to sudden stops in traffic a few times.  :-\  So, I think I'd 
have to rebuild from the motherboard and graphics card all the way up.

I am heavily reliant on 10-key, so I'm afraid that forces me into looking at 
laptops with 17" screens...but I just hate having that size...almost a 
luggable, really.

I'm hearing Parallels and other solutions for Mac are the workaround for FM 
dependency; and SPARC+Solaris is the non-PC environment for FM. I would be fine 
without the Windows security updates. I keep auto-update disabled anyway and 
let my IT guru selectively install the ones that are truly needed and proven 
not to be a Pandora's box. (Color me paranoid, but I once lost too much time 
with a Windows update that interfered with stuff right before a deadline.)

 
Rene L. Stephenson


- Original Message 
From: Peter Gold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi, Rene:

...
If the only problems on your current laptop are lack of resources, or
messed-upness from long use installing/uninstalling/updating, etc, you
could consider a new hard drive, more RAM, and deactivating the
necessary applications, then reinstalling XP on the new drive,
copying, reinstalling, activating. If the machine's resources are
maxed out, then a new PC or MacTel with XP while it's still available
is a logical choice.
...
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Art Campbell]

If you use a 10-key a lot, why not use an external so you can go with
a smaller laptop?
Looks as if there are lots of options, including some that include a mouse...

Such as:
http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll?QUERY=USB+numeric+keypad&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0

Art

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Rene Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, Peter. I was one of the daring few who jumped into the first version 
> of the then newly available laptop dual core Intel chipset. Unfortunately, 
> that chipset was discontinued after 6 weeks' production due to lack of 
> support for power save features. If I had been more cunning, I would have 
> negotiated a restock at the time. This idiosyncrasy has been the bane of my 
> laptop usage...well, that and the fact that the battery doesn't last more 
> than an hour or so. The video card is dedicated, but it also generates a TON 
> of heat, and there have been a host of problems cropping up with that heat at 
> the root of the issue. Plus, it doesn't help that it has been dropped and 
> slung onto the floorboard due to sudden stops in traffic a few times.  :-\  
> So, I think I'd have to rebuild from the motherboard and graphics card all 
> the way up.
>
> I am heavily reliant on 10-key, so I'm afraid that forces me into looking at 
> laptops with 17" screens...but I just hate having that size...almost a 
> luggable, really.
>
> I'm hearing Parallels and other solutions for Mac are the workaround for FM 
> dependency; and SPARC+Solaris is the non-PC environment for FM. I would be 
> fine without the Windows security updates. I keep auto-update disabled anyway 
> and let my IT guru selectively install the ones that are truly needed and 
> proven not to be a Pandora's box. (Color me paranoid, but I once lost too 
> much time with a Windows update that interfered with stuff right before a 
> deadline.)
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Peter Gold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Hi, Rene:
>
> ...
> If the only problems on your current laptop are lack of resources, or
> messed-upness from long use installing/uninstalling/updating, etc, you
> could consider a new hard drive, more RAM, and deactivating the
> necessary applications, then reinstalling XP on the new drive,
> copying, reinstalling, activating. If the machine's resources are
> maxed out, then a new PC or MacTel with XP while it's still available
> is a logical choice.
> ...
> ___

-- 
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Yves Barbion]

Hi Rene,

I've seen people use FrameMaker on Mac, using Parallels (
http://www.parallels.com). But: seeing is not immediately believing for me,
so I'd advise you to borrow a Mac from one of your friends, install
Parallels, Windows and FrameMaker and all the other plug-ins, bells and
whistles and do some thorough hands-on testing first (if possible).

Good luck.

-- 
Yves Barbion • Managing Director Scripto • Adobe-Certified FrameMaker
Instructor
www.scripto.nu • skype: yves.barbion • T: +32 494 12 01 89


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Rene Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so it's
> getting time to start the process of identifying the next workhorse for me.
> (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very heavily. Any testimonials
> of your laptop successes are more than welcome!)
>
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out, and I
> really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping with Vista and
> all the exponentially increased hassle factor that will entail. Frankly, I
> don't have time to spend 30 minutes per product just to load the software
> and get it functional by jumping through all the hoops required now. I "get"
> that it's piracy protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to
> circumvent any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and
> purse are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
> I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their laptops,
> and they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by Unix/Linux and open
> source development. But, then I get the cold water splashing in the face:
> the majority of my computer use is work related, and the majority of that
> work is done in FrameMaker, and FM seems viable only in PC world.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be? If I'm
> going to continue working with clients whose environment, architecture,
> workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker, am I forced to concede
> to all the baggage that comes with the PC world? Or is there a viable way to
> use FrameMaker on a new Apple laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop,
> seamlessly with FM files saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk
> hosing anything in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/yves.barbion%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Paul Findon]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 16:37, Peter Gold wrote:

> Windows XP won't be shipped with Intel Macs after the end of June, I
> believe.

I guess you mean Dell PCs?

Paul
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Sam Beard]

Rene,

   If you're interested in a Mac running VMWare's Fusion, Parallel's
Desktop, or any other emulation/virtualization software, Macworld
Magazine did a comparison of these programs within the past three or
four months. You might still find it available on their Web site. 

   I also agree with Art on the 10-key peripheral. They're fairly cheap
and MUCH easier/cheaper to replace than a new keyboard or computer! If
it's something that would fit into your work method/style, it just might
help you out quite a bit.

   Apple is making a push for more of the business market, and has been
for quite a few years since they introduced their own rack-mounted
server. Recently, with the increased sales/market share of Macs, Apple
is also pushing their computers more towards the business market, too.
With the help of virtualization software and Apple's own Boot Camp
software, there's little that a Mac can't do these days. PC Magazine has
for quite a few years now considered a Mac laptop one of the best, and
PC World and Consumer Reports usually agrees with them, for what that
might be worth. 

Good luck with your decision and purchase, whatever it might be!

Samuel I. Beard, Jr.
Technical Writer
OI Analytical
979 690-1711 Ext. 222
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rene
Stephenson
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:52 AM
To: FrameUsers List
Subject: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

Hi All,

My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so it's
getting time to start the process of identifying the next workhorse for
me. (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very heavily. Any
testimonials of your laptop successes are more than welcome!) 

I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out, and
I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping with
Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that will
entail. Frankly, I don't have time to spend 30 minutes per product just
to load the software and get it functional by jumping through all the
hoops required now. I "get" that it's piracy protection, and I "get" the
concept and am not trying to circumvent any copyright laws, but it
really just feels like my time and purse are being taxed because of
other people's lack of ethics. 

I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their
laptops, and they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by
Unix/Linux and open source development. But, then I get the cold water
splashing in the face: the majority of my computer use is work related,
and the majority of that work is done in FrameMaker, and FM seems viable
only in PC world. 

Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be? If
I'm going to continue working with clients whose environment,
architecture, workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker, am I
forced to concede to all the baggage that comes with the PC world? Or is
there a viable way to use FrameMaker on a new Apple
laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, seamlessly with FM files
saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk hosing anything in
these single-sourced shared-file environments...!

Thanks in advance,

 
Rene L. Stephenson
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Cool! Definitely a viable solution. THANKS

 
Rene L. Stephenson

- Original Message 
From: Art Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

If you use a 10-key a lot, why not use an external so you can go with
a smaller laptop?
Looks as if there are lots of options, including some that include a mouse...

Such as:
http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll?QUERY=USB+numeric+keypad&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0

Art
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Sarah O'Keefe]

Rene Stephenson wrote:
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,
> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping
> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that
> will entail.

I purchased a laptop with Vista last October. I am THIS CLOSE to 
chucking it and getting a Mac.

It's probably worth switching just to avoid Vista. If you can get XP, 
great, but if your choices are a) Vista or b) Mac, I'd definitely go 
with b, speaking from personal experience.



Sarah

-- 

Sarah O'Keefe   Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Dennis Brunnenmeyer]

Rene

Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of buying a Windows-based 
laptop with VISTA installed on it, hoping to *upgrade* to Windows XP. 
In some cases, this is possible, but look into it first. With brand 
new hardware designed for VISTA, you may not be able to find 
XP-suitable drivers. Your best best (in the Windows arena) is to get 
one originally designed for XP, assuming of course that you choose to 
avoid VISTA.

At one point earlier this Spring, Microsoft was considering extending 
their cutoff date for XP beyond June 30th because of the uproar from 
the business community. I guess that must not have happened, but 
before you sink money into a VISTA-only machine, I'd double-check the 
validity of that rumor.

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
***
At 06:51 AM 6/19/2008, Rene Stephenson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so 
>it's getting time to start the process of identifying the next 
>workhorse for me. (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very 
>heavily. Any testimonials of your laptop successes are more than welcome!)
>
>I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out, 
>and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping 
>with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that 
>will entail. Frankly, I don't have time to spend 30 minutes per 
>product just to load the software and get it functional by jumping 
>through all the hoops required now. I "get" that it's piracy 
>protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to circumvent 
>any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and purse 
>are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
>I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their 
>laptops, and they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by 
>Unix/Linux and open source development. But, then I get the cold 
>water splashing in the face: the majority of my computer use is work 
>related, and the majority of that work is done in FrameMaker, and FM 
>seems viable only in PC world.
>
>Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be? 
>If I'm going to continue working with clients whose environment, 
>architecture, workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker, 
>am I forced to concede to all the baggage that comes with the PC 
>world? Or is there a viable way to use FrameMaker on a new Apple 
>laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, seamlessly with FM files 
>saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk hosing anything 
>in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Rene L. Stephenson
>___
>
>
>You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>or visit 
>http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/dennisb%40chronometrics.com
>
>Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
>http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
Director of Engineering
CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS
15019 Rattlesnake Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710
Office: (530) 477-9015
Fax:  (530) 477-9085
Mobile: (530) 320-9025
eMail:  dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Kelly McDaniel]

http://www.tuaw.com/2008/04/16/ibm-considering-macs-for-employees/

 

 

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Thanks for your candid insight, Sarah. Are any bits of your litany addressed 
with Vista SP1?

 
Rene L. Stephenson

- Original Message 
From: Sarah O'Keefe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

It's probably worth switching just to avoid Vista. If you can get XP, 
great, but if your choices are a) Vista or b) Mac, I'd definitely go 
with b, speaking from personal experience.



Sarah
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Peter Gold]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Sarah O'Keefe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rene Stephenson wrote:
>> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,
>> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping
>> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that
>> will entail.
>
> I purchased a laptop with Vista last October. I am THIS CLOSE to
> chucking it and getting a Mac.
>
> It's probably worth switching just to avoid Vista. If you can get XP,
> great, but if your choices are a) Vista or b) Mac, I'd definitely go
> with b, speaking from personal experience.

FrameMaker for Mac stopped at 7.0, which leaves the issue of buying a
MacTel with Windows XP before the deadline at the end of June.

>
> 
>
> Sarah
>

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Sam Beard]

Peter,

   Just to clarify, you CAN'T buy a Mac with Windows XP. At least, not
directly configured that way from Apple. A third-party store might be
selling one with some virtualization software to go along with XP.
Although, with Boot Camp, I suppose there COULD be a store selling one
with Windows pre-installed and NO virtualization software included.
Still, Apple doesn't promote this as something available at their stores
or via the Web, AFAIK.

Samuel I. Beard, Jr.
Technical Writer
OI Analytical
979 690-1711 Ext. 222
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:13 PM
To: Sarah O'Keefe
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Sarah O'Keefe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Rene Stephenson wrote:
>> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,
>> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping
>> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that
>> will entail.
>
> I purchased a laptop with Vista last October. I am THIS CLOSE to
> chucking it and getting a Mac.
>
> It's probably worth switching just to avoid Vista. If you can get XP,
> great, but if your choices are a) Vista or b) Mac, I'd definitely go
> with b, speaking from personal experience.

FrameMaker for Mac stopped at 7.0, which leaves the issue of buying a
MacTel with Windows XP before the deadline at the end of June.

>
> 
>
> Sarah
>

Regards,

Peter
__
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Milan Davidovic]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Dennis Brunnenmeyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At one point earlier this Spring, Microsoft was considering extending
> their cutoff date for XP beyond June 30th because of the uproar from
> the business community. I guess that must not have happened, but
> before you sink money into a VISTA-only machine, I'd double-check the
> validity of that rumor.

Here's some information that may be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_xp#Support_lifecycle

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[mbradley]

> I don't know how you feel about Dell hardware etc., and I have no 
> experience with their laptops myself, but until July 2 you can still 
> order the Vostro models with WinXP installed.

If you do this, be sure to order Office 2003, as well. I bought an XP
machine from Dell late last year but, not thinking clearly, I mistakenly
allowed them to send me Office 2007. That's Vista apps.

= Mike Bradley
  www.techpubs.com


___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Peter Gold]

Thanks for clarifying this, Sam. I was thinking of non-Apple Mac
resellers who pre-install Windows for their customers, or sell a
virtual product and a Windows version with their MacTels. The Mad
resellers are barred from selling XP just as the PC resellers are.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Sam Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter,
>
>   Just to clarify, you CAN'T buy a Mac with Windows XP. At least, not
> directly configured that way from Apple. A third-party store might be
> selling one with some virtualization software to go along with XP.
> Although, with Boot Camp, I suppose there COULD be a store selling one
> with Windows pre-installed and NO virtualization software included.
> Still, Apple doesn't promote this as something available at their stores
> or via the Web, AFAIK.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[McCallister, Michael (GE Healthcare, consultant)]

 One other possible (untested) solution: Has anyone tried running FM
under OpenSolaris? Conceivably that would work on an Intel/AMD box, and
could also work virtualized under Linux or MacOS.

FM 7.x apparently works reasonably well in Crossover Linux, the
commercial development of Wine:
http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/search?name=FrameMaker&company=
&medal=&date_start[1]=1&date_start[2]=1&date_start[0]=2000&date_start[3]
=0&date_start[4]=00&date_end[1]=6&date_end[2]=20&date_end[0]=2008&date_e
nd[3]=13&date_end[4]=18&search=app

Mike McCallister

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rene
Stephenson
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: FrameUsers List
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

I'm hearing Parallels and other solutions for Mac are the workaround for
FM dependency; and SPARC+Solaris is the non-PC environment for FM. I
would be fine without the Windows security updates. I keep auto-update
disabled anyway and let my IT guru selectively install the ones that are
truly needed and proven not to be a Pandora's box. (Color me paranoid,
but I once lost too much time with a Windows update that interfered with
stuff right before a deadline.)

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC]

 

If you are using FM in conjunction with a CMS such as Content@, be especially 
careful before switching to Vista. Make certain that you speak with your CMS 
Tech Support and NOT a sales rep.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience on running a dual-boot machine with 
Vista and XP?

 

What "New Coke" did for Pepsi sales in the 80s and what the Chevy Vega did for 
Japanese auto sales in the 70s Vista may now be doing for Mac sales. That goes 
double for Office 2007.   ≡8^@

I was forced to switch to a Vista machine because my old laptop lost an 
argument with-as fate would have it- a Coca Cola Product. I tried everything 
but an exorcist to resurrect my “faithful ol' lappie”-believe me- but to no 
avail. Now, I’m considering time travel. 

 

If you have an  XP machine, savor it like the last of the summer wine. 

 

DJ Butler

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarah O'Keefe
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

 

Rene Stephenson wrote:

> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,

> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping

> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that

> will entail.

 

I purchased a laptop with Vista last October. I am THIS CLOSE to 

chucking it and getting a Mac.

 

It's probably worth switching just to avoid Vista. If you can get XP, 

great, but if your choices are a) Vista or b) Mac, I'd definitely go 

with b, speaking from personal experience.

 



 

Sarah

 

-- 



Sarah O'Keefe Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.

Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest

___

 

 

You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/darren.butler.ctr%40robins.af.mil

 

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit

http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Thanks for the CMS reminder, DJ, as well as the giggles. :o)  

I think the Wikipedia article Milan posted indicates  XP SP2 support through 
July 2010, even though new licenses aren't supposed to be available after June 
2008. Maybe over the next two years a better option will emerge from the fog.

Dual boot is an interesting idea, but it's my impression that  Vista matches 
hard drive serial number with OS serial number and snoops everything on the 
hard drive, which means I'd be surprised if that worked...and I'm also 
scratching my head about what the cost/benefit  in time/productivity would be. 
I'm sure I'm missing something...maybe it's in the bottom of my espresso cup.

 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: "Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC" 

Make certain that you speak with your CMS Tech Support and NOT a sales rep.

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience on running a dual-boot machine with 
Vista and XP?

If you have an  XP machine, savor it like the last of the summer wine. 


DJ Butler
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Sam Beard]

Peter,

   I figured you probably knew this, and that (upon second-guessing
myself) what you meant was through a third-party seller. But I thought
I'd make sure it was understood by all involved, just in case.

Have a great day and weekend!

Samuel I. Beard, Jr.
Technical Writer
OI Analytical
979 690-1711 Ext. 222
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:12 PM
To: Sam Beard
Cc: Sarah O'Keefe; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

Thanks for clarifying this, Sam. I was thinking of non-Apple Mac
resellers who pre-install Windows for their customers, or sell a
virtual product and a Windows version with their MacTels. The Mad
resellers are barred from selling XP just as the PC resellers are.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Sam Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter,
>
>   Just to clarify, you CAN'T buy a Mac with Windows XP. At least, not
> directly configured that way from Apple. A third-party store might be
> selling one with some virtualization software to go along with XP.
> Although, with Boot Camp, I suppose there COULD be a store selling one
> with Windows pre-installed and NO virtualization software included.
> Still, Apple doesn't promote this as something available at their
stores
> or via the Web, AFAIK.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

I sort of stubbed my toe on another issue that's going to affect this: I have 
to be able to synch my calendar, contacts, and tasks to a PDA/SmartPhone. I'm 
beginning to think the only choice remaining is wait and pay more total for a 
MacBook and next generation of iPhone; or jump right away to get an XP laptop 
so that I can use Outlook with both the mobile device and laptop.

So, maybe FM is only one part of the consideration. I'm just too PC-dependent.  
:o)

 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: "McCallister, Michael (GE Healthcare, consultant)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

One other possible (untested) solution: Has anyone tried running FM
under OpenSolaris? Conceivably that would work on an Intel/AMD box, and
could also work virtualized under Linux or MacOS.

FM 7.x apparently works reasonably well in Crossover Linux, the
commercial development of Wine:
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Paul Findon]

Hi Rene,

If Adobe had done the right thing by its customers and given us  
FrameMaker for Mac OS X, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but...

I know several people who run Windows FrameMaker on their Intel Macs  
with Parallels. I've not tried it with FrameMaker, but My son had  
been on to me about installing parallels on his Intel iMac for a  
while so he can run Microsoft Publisher, so last month we took the  
plunge. Installation was surprisingly easy. In fact, installing  
Windows seemed to proceed quicker than the last time I installed it  
on my Pentium 4 PC.

Our copy of Windows XP (pre-SP1) is an upgrade, so we had to insert  
our Windows 95 full version CD during installation (used the CD/DVD  
Disconnect function), but Parallels handled it with ease. Then we  
installed Windows XP SP2, AVG Free Anti-virus 8.0, Office, and Firefox.

Things were a bit tight with 1 GB of memory, but everything worked.  
And running in Coherence mode, Windows apps appear side-by-side with  
Mac apps, which is uncanny. The other day we popped in 4 GB memory  
and Parallels runs even better. My son is happily producing his  
Runescape booklets in Publisher, which we then print to PS, open in  
Preview, save as PDF, and impose with Cheap Imposter. Even Mac OS X's  
Spotlight search tool finds files on the virtual machine's C: drive.  
Cool!

Popular Mechanics recently commented that "Macs run Vista better than  
PCs" and from what I've seen so far, I can believe it.



One advantage of Parallels on Mac OS X is that if Windows or a pesky  
app goes pear shaped (perish the thought), it doesn't take your  
entire PC with it and require a reset. You simply kill the virtual  
machine and re-open it. Parallels offer a 15-day free trial.

Incidentally, I've also tried Mac FrameMaker 6 and 7 on my son's  
Intel Mac with Mac OS 9 running inside SheepShaver, an open source  
Power PC emulator. Considering it's converting Intel and PowerPC  
instructions on the fly, it's incredibly snappy. Much faster than  
Virtual PC ever was. I can print to my networked LaserJet, connect to  
other Macs on the network, access all of the files on the Mac OS X  
side, sound works, boots up in 30 seconds, even the scroll ball on  
the Mighty Mouse works (up/down only). It's not 100% stable and I'm  
not suggesting anyone use it for work, but at this price...  Anyway,  
I was gob smacked the first time I saw Mac OS X, Mac OS 9, and  
WIndows XP all running simultaneously on the same Mac.

As you know, Mac OS X comes with an interactive spell checker built  
in. I've gotten so used to it, that now I right-click while working  
in Mac FrameMaker expecting a list of possible spelling suggestions  
to appear. Alas, all I get is FrameMaker's contextual menu. OS X also  
comes with a dictionary. OK. Not that exciting on it's own perhaps,  
but if you press Command-Control-D in any app, a little dictionary  
window instantly appears as you move the mouse over words. Now that's  
cool!

Paul



> My PC laptop is beaten up so badly it's barely stable anymore, so  
> it's getting time to start the process of identifying the next  
> workhorse for me. (Yes, I am rough on a laptop and rely on it very  
> heavily. Any testimonials of your laptop successes are more than  
> welcome!)
>
> I have gotten rather irritated with Microsoft since Vista came out,  
> and I really am reluctant to get a new PC laptop due to it shipping  
> with Vista and all the exponentially increased hassle factor that  
> will entail. Frankly, I don't have time to spend 30 minutes per  
> product just to load the software and get it functional by jumping  
> through all the hoops required now. I "get" that it's piracy  
> protection, and I "get" the concept and am not trying to circumvent  
> any copyright laws, but it really just feels like my time and purse  
> are being taxed because of other people's lack of ethics.
>
> I have some friends who have moved to the Mac platform for their  
> laptops, and they swear by them. All the IT gurus I know swear by  
> Unix/Linux and open source development. But, then I get the cold  
> water splashing in the face: the majority of my computer use is  
> work related, and the majority of that work is done in FrameMaker,  
> and FM seems viable only in PC world.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this really the trap it seems to be?  
> If I'm going to continue working with clients whose environment,  
> architecture, workflow, and staffing all revolve around FrameMaker,  
> am I forced to concede to all the baggage that comes with the PC  
> world? Or is there a viable way to use FrameMaker on a new Apple  
> laptop/notebook/etc., or on a Linux laptop, seamlessly with FM  
> files saved by and shared with FM PC users? I can't risk hosing  
> anything in these single-sourced shared-file environments...!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Rene L. Stephenson
> 

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC]

Yeah, you are probably right, Rene. The dual-boot question was just a
stab in the dark.
My entire office may be forced to up(...down??)-grade to Vista in the
hopefully-not-to-near future. Our vehement petition for a stay of
execution may be ignored in favor of the IT UBER-POLICY, unless we can
come up with a compromise.

Cost/benefit and time/productivity be hanged; we're talking survival
here!

DJ Butler

-Original Message-
From: Rene Stephenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:37 PM
To: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

Thanks for the CMS reminder, DJ, as well as the giggles. :o)  

I think the Wikipedia article Milan posted indicates  XP SP2 support
through July 2010, even though new licenses aren't supposed to be
available after June 2008. Maybe over the next two years a better option
will emerge from the fog.

Dual boot is an interesting idea, but it's my impression that  Vista
matches hard drive serial number with OS serial number and snoops
everything on the hard drive, which means I'd be surprised if that
worked...and I'm also scratching my head about what the cost/benefit  in
time/productivity would be. I'm sure I'm missing something...maybe it's
in the bottom of my espresso cup.

 
Rene L. Stephenson


- Original Message 
From: "Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC" 

Make certain that you speak with your CMS Tech Support and NOT a sales
rep.

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience on running a dual-boot machine
with Vista and XP?

If you have an  XP machine, savor it like the last of the summer wine. 


DJ Butler


___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

You're right, Dennis. I checked with an IT guru buddy who has done a lot of 
reworks of Vista machines when his clients got bitten by one of its bugs and 
wanted to roll back to XP, and he said it was a complete nightmare, every 
single time, and a couple of times was such a colossal headache that he just 
told the client to return the computer for a refund and buy an XP machine. He 
said if I go to a Vista box, I'd better be prepared to do it come what may 
without looking back.


 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: Dennis Brunnenmeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Rene

Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of buying a Windows-based
laptop with VISTA installed on it, hoping to *upgrade* to Windows XP. In
some cases, this is possible, but look into it first. With brand new
hardware designed for VISTA, you may not be able to find XP-suitable
drivers. Your best best (in the Windows arena) is to get one originally
designed for XP, assuming of course that you choose to avoid
VISTA.

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
***
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Mike Wickham]

Rene,

I also have to replace a laptop. It was attached to the network when we got
hit by lightning. I hate that Vista is the only choice that  laptop 
manufacturers
are giving us these days. So I'm planning to check to be sure that
XP-compatible drivers are available for the prospective laptop's hardware.
Then I'm going to reformat the disk, install Windows XP Professional, and 
install the proper drivers instead. It'll eliminate the junk trialware, too.

Mike Wickham




___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Paul Findon]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 21:06, Rene Stephenson wrote:

> You're right, Dennis. I checked with an IT guru buddy who has done  
> a lot of reworks of Vista machines when his clients got bitten by  
> one of its bugs and wanted to roll back to XP, and he said it was a  
> complete nightmare, every single time, and a couple of times was  
> such a colossal headache that he just told the client to return the  
> computer for a refund and buy an XP machine. He said if I go to a  
> Vista box, I'd better be prepared to do it come what may without  
> looking back.

This is one area where the Mac has always been the clear winner over  
the PC - multiple operating systems.

With a Mac, you simply attach another hard drive, install the OS, and  
use the Startup Disk preference to choose it as your startup OS. Done!

Not so easy on a PC. A long, long time ago, I installed the English  
and Japanese versions of Windows 3.1 on my PC using two separate hard  
drives. To get around the ATA master/slave limitations, I hard wired  
a rear-panel switch to the master/slave jumpers. To switch between  
systems, I shut down, flicked the switch, and rebooted. That was  
after learning about MBR (Master Boot Records) the hard way. Several  
years later I found a pre-wired master/slave switch kit on sale in  
Japanese PC store. Ahh, another patent slips away...

Fast forward nearly 15 years and nothing has changed. I've now got  
the English and Japanese versions of Windows XP on two separate hard  
drives. (Yes, I know about 3rd party tools such as Partition Magic).)

Anyway, with Parallels, you can run multiple virtual machines  
simultaneously. Windows XP, Vista, 2000, Linux, etc. Perfect for  
testing and documenting different systems and beta software.

Paul
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Mike Wickham]

> Anyway, with Parallels, you can run multiple virtual machines
> simultaneously. Windows XP, Vista, 2000, Linux, etc. Perfect for
> testing and documenting different systems and beta software.

And of course, there is the PC counterpart-- Microsoft Virtual PC 2007. It 
can be downloaded free at 
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/downloads/virtualpc/default.mspx. It's 
limited to running virtual machines of Windows 98 or later and OS/2, though.

Mike Wickham


___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Syed.Hosain]

Mike Bradley wrote:
> > I don't know how you feel about Dell hardware etc., and I have no
> > experience with their laptops myself, but until July 2 you can still
> > order the Vostro models with WinXP installed.
> 
> If you do this, be sure to order Office 2003, as well. I bought an XP
> machine from Dell late last year but, not thinking clearly, I
mistakenly
> allowed them to send me Office 2007. That's Vista apps.

Um ... All of the Office 2007 software (including Project and Visio and
Groove, etc.) works perfectly fine on my Windows XP system (and on my
Vista system, of course).

Z
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Mike Bradley]

 
> Um ... All of the Office 2007 software (including Project and Visio and
> Groove, etc.) works perfectly fine on my Windows XP system (and on my
> Vista system, of course).

I should have written more clearly. 

It's not that Office 2007 doesn't run on an XP system, it's that it has the
(abominable) Vista GUI, the default XML-whatever output, etc. Avoiding the OS is
only half the battle; you have to avoid Office, as well.



= Mike


___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Syed.Hosain]

> > Um ... All of the Office 2007 software (including Project and Visio
and
> > Groove, etc.) works perfectly fine on my Windows XP system (and on
my
> > Vista system, of course).
> 
> I should have written more clearly.
> 
> It's not that Office 2007 doesn't run on an XP system, it's that it
has the
> (abominable) Vista GUI, the default XML-whatever output, etc. Avoiding
the OS is
> only half the battle; you have to avoid Office, as well.

Ah. I get your point. :)

Z
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Dennis Brunnenmeyer]

As of tonight (June 19th), the HP Compaq web site still lists their 
top-end notebooks with "Vista downgrade to Windows XP"  as an optional OS.

My HP/Compaq nw8000 has given excellent service. The HP Compaq 8710w 
available now is a relatively costly computer but inexpensive when 
you consider its value with respect to salaries and time.

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
***
At 01:06 PM 6/19/2008, Rene Stephenson wrote:
>You're right, Dennis. I checked with an IT guru buddy who has done a 
>lot of reworks of Vista machines when his clients got bitten by one 
>of its bugs and wanted to roll back to XP, and he said it was a 
>complete nightmare, every single time, and a couple of times was 
>such a colossal headache that he just told the client to return the 
>computer for a refund and buy an XP machine. He said if I go to a 
>Vista box, I'd better be prepared to do it come what may without looking back.
>
>
>Rene L. Stephenson
>
>
>- Original Message 
>From: Dennis Brunnenmeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Rene
>
>Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of buying a Windows-based 
>laptop with VISTA installed on it, hoping to *upgrade* to Windows 
>XP. In some cases, this is possible, but look into it first. With 
>brand new hardware designed for VISTA, you may not be able to find 
>XP-suitable drivers. Your best best (in the Windows arena) is to get 
>one originally designed for XP, assuming of course that you choose 
>to avoid VISTA.
>
>Dennis Brunnenmeyer
>***

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
Director of Engineering
CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS
15019 Rattlesnake Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710
Office: (530) 477-9015
Fax:  (530) 477-9085
Mobile: (530) 320-9025
eMail:  dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Art Campbell]

And there are hundreds of Dell laptops with XP in their Outlet store,
which is always my favorite spot for saving a few bucks while
shopping.

Art

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Dennis Brunnenmeyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As of tonight (June 19th), the HP Compaq web site still lists their
> top-end notebooks with "Vista downgrade to Windows XP"  as an optional OS.
>
> My HP/Compaq nw8000 has given excellent service. The HP Compaq 8710w
> available now is a relatively costly computer but inexpensive when
> you consider its value with respect to salaries and time.
>
> Dennis Brunnenmeyer
> ***
> At 01:06 PM 6/19/2008, Rene Stephenson wrote:
>>You're right, Dennis. I checked with an IT guru buddy who has done a
>>lot of reworks of Vista machines when his clients got bitten by one
>>of its bugs and wanted to roll back to XP, and he said it was a
>>complete nightmare, every single time, and a couple of times was
>>such a colossal headache that he just told the client to return the
>>computer for a refund and buy an XP machine. He said if I go to a
>>Vista box, I'd better be prepared to do it come what may without looking back.
>>
>>
>>Rene L. Stephenson
>>
>>
>>- Original Message 
>>From: Dennis Brunnenmeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>Rene
>>
>>Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of buying a Windows-based
>>laptop with VISTA installed on it, hoping to *upgrade* to Windows
>>XP. In some cases, this is possible, but look into it first. With
>>brand new hardware designed for VISTA, you may not be able to find
>>XP-suitable drivers. Your best best (in the Windows arena) is to get
>>one originally designed for XP, assuming of course that you choose
>>to avoid VISTA.
>>
>>Dennis Brunnenmeyer
>>***
>
> Dennis Brunnenmeyer
> Director of Engineering
> CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS
> 15019 Rattlesnake Road
> Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710
> Office: (530) 477-9015
> Fax:  (530) 477-9085
> Mobile: (530) 320-9025
> eMail:  dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

I know what you mean. My largest client's IT UBER-POLICY  steers way too many 
decisions in my home computing due to our client relationship. If I had *time* 
to do it, I'd go pick up all the networking and Cisco certs I could get my 
hands on, just so that I could get this stuff jiving the way I need it to work. 
They're rolling out Office 2007 on site, and most of the workers initially 
gripe about the interface but then find that it's more like hopping into a tub 
of hot water: if you sit there long enough, it doesn't *feel* hot anymore.

When I was helping my manager at that site configure his user interface, I saw 
a setting to use the "classic" office menus rather than the 2007 "ribbon" 
menus, and using that setting plus changing his default file type for save 
operations has helped him a lot. Me? Oh, I bought Office 2007 when I could get 
it from a friend as an OEM offering, loving the discount. Of course, now I find 
out that OEM means you can't ever upgrade that copy, so I'm starting to feel 
like I got taken, but hey, it's buyer beware, I guess.

It's hard to  figure out what's really going to work for me from a cost and 
productivity standpoint with so many variables and dependencies in play, 
knowing that the wrong decision would be a permanent pain in the kiester.

 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: "Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 Our vehement petition for a stay of
execution may be ignored in favor of the IT UBER-POLICY, unless we can
come up with a compromise.

DJ Butler
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Stuart Rogers]

Rene Stephenson wrote:
>They're
> rolling out Office 2007 on site, and most of the workers initially
> gripe about the interface but then find that it's more like hopping
> into a tub of hot water: if you sit there long enough, it doesn't
> *feel* hot anymore.
>

I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw many years ago:  A crowd of cannibals 
with bones through their nostrils, gathered round a huge cauldron set 
over a fire.  In the cauldron, three pith-helmeted white explorers 
lounging, elbows resting on the rim.  Says one to the other two, "The 
chief's right!  The first few minutes *are* very relaxing."

Welcome to Office 2007!  ;-)

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

In matters of politics, I never believe anything until it's officially
denied.
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Dov Isaacs]

The 8710w is a fantastic system. Omit the BlueRay drive and the cost
isn't particularly bad. And if you take care of it and can get four
years of service out of it (typically what I get out of my notebook
systems), the extra cost per day compared to el'cheapo configurations
is really minimum. Oh, BTW, I would not recommend XP on the 8710w
given its fairly "new" peripherals that are not particularly well
supported under Vista. (Also, multiple core / multiple core processors
are better utilized by Vista than Windows XP!)

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis Brunnenmeyer
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:08 PM
>
> As of tonight (June 19th), the HP Compaq web site still lists their
> top-end notebooks with "Vista downgrade to Windows XP"  as an optional OS.
>
> My HP/Compaq nw8000 has given excellent service. The HP Compaq 8710w
> available now is a relatively costly computer but inexpensive when
> you consider its value with respect to salaries and time.
>
> Dennis Brunnenmeyer
> ***
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Am I correct to understand that anything more than 3GB of RAM is wasted unless 
you're running Vista?

 
Rene L. Stephenson




- Original Message 
From: Dov Isaacs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The 8710w is a fantastic system. Omit the BlueRay drive and the cost
isn't particularly bad. And if you take care of it and can get four
years of service out of it (typically what I get out of my notebook
systems), the extra cost per day compared to el'cheapo configurations
is really minimum. Oh, BTW, I would not recommend XP on the 8710w
given its fairly "new" peripherals that are not particularly well
supported under Vista. (Also, multiple core / multiple core processors
are better utilized by Vista than Windows XP!)

- Dov
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Or the old adage that to boil a frog, you put it in a pot of cold water and 
turn up the heat gradually, because the frog will pass out before it notices 
the increased temperature.
Not that frog soup is on my menu

 
Rene L. Stephenson




- Original Message 
From: Stuart Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw many years ago:  A crowd of cannibals 
with bones through their nostrils, gathered round a huge cauldron set 
over a fire.  In the cauldron, three pith-helmeted white explorers 
lounging, elbows resting on the rim.  Says one to the other two, "The 
chief's right!  The first few minutes *are* very relaxing."

Welcome to Office 2007!  ;-)
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Syed.Hosain]

> Am I correct to understand that anything more than 3GB of RAM is
wasted unless you're running Vista?

Generally speaking, yes, with almost all of the Windows XP versions
(i.e., Windows XP 64-bit, of course!). You would need Vista 64-bit to
get more than 4GB.

Also, note that, in many cases, there are BIOS (and other uses) of that
memory space as well (for example, video card memory) in that fourth gig
of address space.

Note that there are *other* OS's (64-bit Solaris, etc.) that can run on
these systems and use more memory than 4GB.

Z
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Dov Isaacs]

Depending upon how much memory is on you video card and the size of various
system BIOS and memory mapped i/o device card buffers, most if not all of the
memory space above 3GB is unavailable for mapping of real memory both for
XP and Vista 32-bit versions. It is the 64-bit versions of Vista on 64-bit 
versions of
Intel and AMD processors that removes that restriction. In other words, Vista 32
won't help you on this.

- Dov

From: Rene Stephenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:16 PM
To: Dov Isaacs; Dennis Brunnenmeyer; FrameUsers List
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

Am I correct to understand that anything more than 3GB of RAM is wasted unless 
you're running Vista?

Rene L. Stephenson


- Original Message 
From: Dov Isaacs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The 8710w is a fantastic system. Omit the BlueRay drive and the cost
isn't particularly bad. And if you take care of it and can get four
years of service out of it (typically what I get out of my notebook
systems), the extra cost per day compared to el'cheapo configurations
is really minimum. Oh, BTW, I would not recommend XP on the 8710w
given its fairly "new" peripherals that are not particularly well
supported under Vista. (Also, multiple core / multiple core processors
are better utilized by Vista than Windows XP!)

- Dov

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Syed.Hosain]

> > Am I correct to understand that anything more than 3GB of RAM is
> wasted unless you're running Vista?
> 
> Generally speaking, yes, with almost all of the Windows XP versions
> (i.e., Windows XP 64-bit, of course!). You would need Vista 64-bit to
> get more than 4GB.

Argh! Above, I meant to say "EXCEPT windows XP 64-bit, of course!". Of
course, I would not recommend Windows XP 64-bit right now ... would be
better to go with Vista 64-bit since drivers are more likely to be made
available for that!

Z

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Rene Stephenson]

Trialware/shovelware is a PITA, just one more thing to muddle through when you 
buy a computer, as if installing all the gobs of software and plugins that you 
really DO need and twiddling with all the UI settings isn't timeconsuming 
enough—which is precisely why my new desktop is still in the box a month after 
I bought it:  too many deadlines and obligations to fit into waking hours and 
still have time for PC configuration.

 
Rene L. Stephenson


- Original Message 
From: Mike Wickham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Rene,

\It'll eliminate the junk trialware, too.

Mike Wickham
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

[Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC]

XP or VISTA; SAUNA or SOUP; that *is* the question.
Well, whether amphibian or adventurer we're still swimming in the
cauldron of our own demise.

Seriously, I feel MUCH better about all this Frame/Vista stuff-thanx to
Dov's wise counsel-so I'll soak a bit longer 

Hey, I'm actually starting to smell pretty delicious!!

DJ
-Original Message-
From: Rene Stephenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:27 PM
To: Stuart Rogers
Cc: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHAC;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions

Or the old adage that to boil a frog, you put it in a pot of cold water
and turn up the heat gradually, because the frog will pass out before it
notices the increased temperature.
Not that frog soup is on my menu

 
Rene L. Stephenson



- Original Message 
From: Stuart Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw many years ago:  A crowd of cannibals 
with bones through their nostrils, gathered round a huge cauldron set 
over a fire.  In the cauldron, three pith-helmeted white explorers 
lounging, elbows resting on the rim.  Says one to the other two, "The 
chief's right!  The first few minutes *are* very relaxing."

Welcome to Office 2007!  ;-)


___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Win XP support (was RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions)

[Combs, Richard]

Peter Gold wrote:

> Windows XP official support is supposed to end soon.
> 
> Windows XP won't be shipped with Intel Macs after the end of June, I
> believe. I think the same applies to PCs.
> 
> So, Vista is not just a preference, it's a deadline.
> 
> There's no compelling reason to avoid an XP-based machine. By this
> time in its life, there are few bus remaining to be fixed. A good
> virus-protection application should protect your system, so the
> discontinuing of MS Security updates shouldn't have an effect on
> working.

Correction: _Sales_ of XP are ending, not _support_. The Extended
Support phase of the Win XP lifecycle is currently scheduled to continue
until April 2014 (see http://tinyurl.com/56ma9o). 

Extendend Support includes paid support, security update support, KB and
Support site support, and availability of extended hotfix agreements. So
your XP installation will get security updates for another six years
(and that could be extended further as the deadline approaches; IIRC,
they extended security support for Win 98). 

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Win XP support (was RE: How FM use impacts purchasing decisions)

[Combs, Richard]

Peter Gold wrote:
 
> Windows XP official support is supposed to end soon.
> 
> Windows XP won't be shipped with Intel Macs after the end of June, I
> believe. I think the same applies to PCs.
> 
> So, Vista is not just a preference, it's a deadline.
> 
> There's no compelling reason to avoid an XP-based machine. By this
> time in its life, there are few bus remaining to be fixed. A good
> virus-protection application should protect your system, so the
> discontinuing of MS Security updates shouldn't have an effect on
> working.

Correction: _Sales_ of XP are ending, not _support_. The Extended
Support phase of the Win XP lifecycle is currently scheduled to continue
until April 2014 (see http://tinyurl.com/56ma9o). 

Extendend Support includes paid support, security update support, KB and
Support site support, and availability of extended hotfix agreements. So
your XP installation will get security updates for another six years
(and that could be extended further as the deadline approaches; IIRC,
they extended security support for Win 98). 

Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--





___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.