RE: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Zimmerman, Gary]

I think the topic is of interest to a good portion of FM users, even if it's 
just ranting and speculation.  As long as the subject lines are well indicative 
of content, I can delete the messages without reading them (as I have been 
doing once I tired of the topic myself).  Really the only extra bandwidth to my 
time is scanning a longer list of email message subjects and deleting, but I do 
that anyway.



-- garyZ





> -Original Message-

> From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-

> boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer

> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 1:15 PM

> To: m...@mattrsullivan.com; Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net);

> framers@lists.frameusers.com List

> Subject: Re: OT!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

>

> And on the other side of the fence...

>

> I find it an interesting discussion. And I prefer to have it on this list

> since I don't participate in many other lists.

>

> Sorry, Matt, my vote is for keep it online.

>

> Nadine

>

> >

> >Bandwidth is measured also by the number of emails one can reasonably

> read (and respond to) in a given length of time.

> >

> >

> >I can't be the only person who is tired of reading about reactions to the

> CS licensing model on this FrameMaker forum…

> >

> >

> >I don't know anything about Adobe's plans.

> >

> >

> >Everyone's time is worth (and costs) something…the time required to

> participate and/or read these discussions thus have a cost, so I'm

> asking... perhaps those with a keen interest in the topic could take the

> discussion of it offline or to a CS-oriented list until Adobe indicates

> this will affect FrameMaker?

> >

> >

> >I'm happy to discuss this off-list, but as a courtesy, will be avoiding

> this thread (even more) going forward.

> >

> >

> >-Matt

> >

> >

> >

> >On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Syed Zaeem Hosain 
> >(syed.hos...@aeris.net<mailto:syed.hos...@aeris.net>)"

> mailto:syed.hos...@aeris.net>> wrote:

> >

> >In this day and age, is Internet “bandwidth” use for text e-mails really

> an issue? J

> >>

> >>Plus, are you saying that you know/believe that FrameMaker is not going

> to be released as a cloud-based license model soon? Love to hear the news.

> >>

> >>And, in my opinion, btw, my discussion (feel free to call it whining

> perhaps? :)) on license cost/models of FrameMaker is fair game for this

> mailing list …

> >>

> >>Z

> ___

>
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RE: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Combs, Richard]

Alan Litchfield wrote:
 
> Actually Richard...
> On 19/07/13 8:41 AM, Combs, Richard wrote:
> John Posada wrote:
> 
> Off list. Aside from it is interesting to a small subset, its just plain
> boring now.
> 
> You think that's boring? The logical next topic is: Should the debate about
> whether the CC discussion belongs off-list or on-list be off-list or on-list?
> ;-)
> 
> 
> I don't that is necessarily the next logical topic. *I* think it ought to be
> about whether Frame has a future...
> 
> :P

Hah! And after that, we could discuss "displays" vs. "appears"! 

Is it Friday yet? (I guess it is for you, Alan.) 

Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-903-6372
--






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Re: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Alan Litchfield]

Actually Richard...

On 19/07/13 8:41 AM, Combs, Richard wrote:

John Posada wrote:
  

Off list. Aside from it is interesting to a small subset, its just plain
boring now.

You think that's boring? The logical next topic is: Should the debate about 
whether the CC discussion belongs off-list or on-list be off-list or on-list? 
;-)



I don't that is necessarily the next logical topic. *I* think it ought 
to be about whether Frame has a future...


:P

Alan
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RE: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Combs, Richard]

John Posada wrote: 
 
> Off list. Aside from it is interesting to a small subset, its just plain
> boring now.

You think that's boring? The logical next topic is: Should the debate about 
whether the CC discussion belongs off-list or on-list be off-list or on-list? 
;-) 

Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-903-6372
--





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Re: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Matt Sullivan]

Thx!(and grateful for not starting a flame war on the topic!)
-MattMatt R. Sullivan co-author Publishing Fundamentals: Unstructured FrameMaker 11 P: 714.798.7596 | C: 714.585.2335 | m...@mattrsullivan.com @mattrsullivan LinkedIn facebook mattrsullivan.com 

On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:32 PM, "Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)"  wrote:Hi, all. I’ll respect the requests and keep my comments off-line (other than this last one) But only until after my belief/speculation/prediction comes true: when – not if – FrameMaker upgrades/licensing is foisted on us as subscription model, it will be fair game again. This will be relatively soon, IMHO. Okay with that? :)Z___


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RE: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Fred Ridder]

But Matt's has two points that I think are completely valid.

1) The licensing model for Creative Suite does not apply to FrameMaker (yet?) 
so the discussion is either moot or off-topic for this list (or both).

2) Nothing new is being said. All of the posters on this topic are simply 
restating what they have said several times before. We get it. You don't like 
the pay-as-you-go licensing model and won't buy into it if and when FrameMaker 
converts to that kind of plan, so at some point after that you'll stop using 
FrameMaker for anything. 

I'm sure Adobe is aware that they will lose some percentage of their users if 
they convert their licensing model, but I'm sure they also believe that they 
will *gain* some new users who will be happy to license their products for a 
few months to see whether they work well for their purposes at a cost of a 
couple hundred dollars rather than having to fork out a kilobuck or more 
up-front. 

-Fred Ridder

> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:14:40 -0700
> From: generic...@yahoo.ca
> Subject: Re: OT!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)
> To: m...@mattrsullivan.com; syed.hos...@aeris.net; 
> framers@lists.frameusers.com
> 
> And on the other side of the fence...
> 
> I find it an interesting discussion. And I prefer to have it on this list 
> since I don't participate in many other lists.
> 
> Sorry, Matt, my vote is for keep it online.
> 
> Nadine
> 
> >
> >Bandwidth is measured also by the number of emails one can reasonably read 
> >(and respond to) in a given length of time.
> >
> >
> >I can't be the only person who is tired of reading about reactions to the CS 
> >licensing model on this FrameMaker forum…
> >
> >
> >I don't know anything about Adobe's plans.
> >
> >
> >Everyone's time is worth (and costs) something…the time required to 
> >participate and/or read these discussions thus have a cost, so I'm asking... 
> >perhaps those with a keen interest in the topic could take the discussion of 
> >it offline or to a CS-oriented list until Adobe indicates this will affect 
> >FrameMaker? 
> >
> >
> >I'm happy to discuss this off-list, but as a courtesy, will be avoiding this 
> >thread (even more) going forward.
> >
> >
> >-Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)" 
> > wrote:
> >
> >In this day and age, is Internet “bandwidth” use for text e-mails really an 
> >issue? J
> >> 
> >>Plus, are you saying that you know/believe that FrameMaker is not going to 
> >>be released as a cloud-based license model soon? Love to hear the news.
> >> 
> >>And, in my opinion, btw, my discussion (feel free to call it whining 
> >>perhaps? :)) on license cost/models of FrameMaker is fair game for this 
> >>mailing list …
> >> 
> >>Z
> ___
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RE: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

Hi, all.

I'll respect the requests and keep my comments off-line (other than this last 
one)

But only until after my belief/speculation/prediction comes true: when - not if 
- FrameMaker upgrades/licensing is foisted on us as subscription model, it will 
be fair game again. This will be relatively soon, IMHO.

Okay with that? :)

Z
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Re: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[John Posada]

Off list. Aside from it is interesting to a small subset, its just plain
boring now.
On Jul 18, 2013 4:18 PM, "Writer"  wrote:

> And on the other side of the fence...
>
> I find it an interesting discussion. And I prefer to have it on this list
> since I don't participate in many other lists.
>
> Sorry, Matt, my vote is for keep it online.
>
> Nadine
>
> >
> >Bandwidth is measured also by the number of emails one can reasonably
> read (and respond to) in a given length of time.
> >
> >
> >I can't be the only person who is tired of reading about reactions to the
> CS licensing model on this FrameMaker forum…
> >
> >
> >I don't know anything about Adobe's plans.
> >
> >
> >Everyone's time is worth (and costs) something…the time required to
> participate and/or read these discussions thus have a cost, so I'm
> asking... perhaps those with a keen interest in the topic could take the
> discussion of it offline or to a CS-oriented list until Adobe indicates
> this will affect FrameMaker?
> >
> >
> >I'm happy to discuss this off-list, but as a courtesy, will be avoiding
> this thread (even more) going forward.
> >
> >
> >-Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)"
>  wrote:
> >
> >In this day and age, is Internet “bandwidth” use for text e-mails really
> an issue? J
> >>
> >>Plus, are you saying that you know/believe that FrameMaker is not going
> to be released as a cloud-based license model soon? Love to hear the news.
> >>
> >>And, in my opinion, btw, my discussion (feel free to call it whining
> perhaps? :)) on license cost/models of FrameMaker is fair game for this
> mailing list …
> >>
> >>Z
> ___
>
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Re: OT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Writer]

And on the other side of the fence...

I find it an interesting discussion. And I prefer to have it on this list since 
I don't participate in many other lists.

Sorry, Matt, my vote is for keep it online.

Nadine

>
>Bandwidth is measured also by the number of emails one can reasonably read 
>(and respond to) in a given length of time.
>
>
>I can't be the only person who is tired of reading about reactions to the CS 
>licensing model on this FrameMaker forum…
>
>
>I don't know anything about Adobe's plans.
>
>
>Everyone's time is worth (and costs) something…the time required to 
>participate and/or read these discussions thus have a cost, so I'm asking... 
>perhaps those with a keen interest in the topic could take the discussion of 
>it offline or to a CS-oriented list until Adobe indicates this will affect 
>FrameMaker? 
>
>
>I'm happy to discuss this off-list, but as a courtesy, will be avoiding this 
>thread (even more) going forward.
>
>
>-Matt
>
>
>
>On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)" 
> wrote:
>
>In this day and age, is Internet “bandwidth” use for text e-mails really an 
>issue? J
>> 
>>Plus, are you saying that you know/believe that FrameMaker is not going to be 
>>released as a cloud-based license model soon? Love to hear the news.
>> 
>>And, in my opinion, btw, my discussion (feel free to call it whining perhaps? 
>>:)) on license cost/models of FrameMaker is fair game for this mailing list …
>> 
>>Z
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Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Grant Hogarth]

David, it seems logical to me:
if the CC licence is for version >6, and your CS version is 6, flies 
created with the cloud version won't be able to be opened with your 
local version.  Just like you cannot open FM version 10 files in FM 
version 9.


Grant

On 7/17/2013 4:52 AM, David Creamer wrote:

If you already own a perpetual license version, you don't have to stop
using it. But if you start out as a renter, you do. And if you own a
perpetual license, such as CS6, and then rent CC as your new upgrade
path, when you stop paying, there's a good chance that your current
files will no longer open in the CS6 version, potentially rendering it
useless.

Where did you get that info?
If you have CS6 via a perpetual license it will still work even after canceling 
a Cloud subscription.
Naturally, if you have CS6 via a Cloud subscription (like I do), it will stop 
working.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training



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Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Mike Wickham]

Read my note again. I didn't say CS6 would stop working. I said that 
files created in the CC version may not  always be backward compatible 
with CS6. Right now, I don't know if CC has introduced any features that 
create files that aren't backward compatible, but each new edition of 
Photoshop tends to do so-- smart objects, etc.


Mike

On 7/17/2013 5:52 AM, David Creamer wrote:

If you already own a perpetual license version, you don't have to stop
using it. But if you start out as a renter, you do. And if you own a
perpetual license, such as CS6, and then rent CC as your new upgrade
path, when you stop paying, there's a good chance that your current
files will no longer open in the CS6 version, potentially rendering it
useless.

Where did you get that info?
If you have CS6 via a perpetual license it will still work even after canceling 
a Cloud subscription.
Naturally, if you have CS6 via a Cloud subscription (like I do), it will stop 
working.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training

_



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Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Mike Wickham]

If you already own a perpetual license version, you don't have to stop 
using it. But if you start out as a renter, you do. And if you own a 
perpetual license, such as CS6, and then rent CC as your new upgrade 
path, when you stop paying, there's a good chance that your current 
files will no longer open in the CS6 version, potentially rendering it 
useless.


Mike Wickham

On 7/13/2013 11:37 AM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

I really don't understand this reasoning that if you can't update your
software every year or whatever you have to stop using it.





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Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Robert Lauriston]

I really don't understand this reasoning that if you can't update your
software every year or whatever you have to stop using it.

I never upgrade my tools unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
FrameMaker upgrades in particular have been one step forward, two
steps back, since version 8. Adobe hasn't added any features that are
very compelling to me since version 6.
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Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Roger Shuttleworth]

Hi Steve

You may know this already, but Xara is a credible alternative to 
Illustrator, and a lot cheaper. Dunno about any of the others though...


Regards,
Roger

On 12/07/2013 11:46 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

I have just had a software vendor ring me to enquire about my future software 
needs, and to extol the virtues of Adobe's 'creative cloud', which she had just 
finished training up on.

Boy did she get more than she was bargaining for ;-)

I pointed out that I had been planning to upgrade (with full version purchase 
in many cases due to the age of my versions), at least Illustrator, 
Dreamweaver, Acrobat Pro, InDesign, Fireworks and Flash (I have already 
upgraded FrameMaker), but that Adobe no longer has anything to sell me. She 
then asked me what alternatives I was planning, and I responded that as there 
were no credible alternatives to many or all of these, I was considering 
retirement as an option.

The idea that I would have to pay Adobe for the rest of my life to retain 
access to legacy material does not appeal, to say the least.

I know this has been aired here before, but I just needed to let off steam.


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RE: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

> I apologize for helping this topic spill into the FrameMaker arena where, so 
> far, the subscription model has not been forced on us. 
> Hopefully, Adobe won't also make that bad decision or they will find that 
> they have lost the last bit of their revenue stream from me.

Given the fact that I was unable to renew my FrameMaker update license some 
months ago, I believe this is likely and may be imminent too. I think that 
Adobe will foist a subscription model on us FrameMaker users very soon - but 
this is speculation on my part, so please take it with the usual grain of salt.

But, for that same reason, I also choose not to provide any more revenue to 
them as soon as I can get to alternatives (as mentioned in my last e-mail).

Z

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RE: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

Steve/Mike.

I agree with you both thoroughly. In a similar thread some months back, I noted 
that I was unable to renew my 2-year FrameMaker and Acrobat Pro update license 
agreement because of a new Adobe policy - I suspect that this was in 
preparation for a migration to a cloud-based approach like CC. Although, as far 
as I know, FrameMaker has not yet been added to Adobe CC.

And, importantly, I am completely uninterested in paying $50 a month for the 
many Adobe tools in CC, that I am simply never likely to use!

So, I have been [slowly] looking at non-Adobe alternatives for what I do use 
(and for others in my company as well) and have come up with some that fit 
_our_ specific requirements - which is not to say that these would work for 
everybody!

For now, I will continue using FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro till I can migrate 
fully away permanently. My goal is to be off all Adobe products within 12 
months and then never look back - because I think that their new policies are 
injurious to small businesses and consultants. Apparently, they don't care.

For an FYI, to date, this is where we are at for now (includes not just me, but 
others in my company too):

- Image editing:Xara Photo & Graphic Designer 9 (moved away 
from Adobe Photoshop - I stopped upgrading at CS3).

- Page Layout:  Xara Page & Layout Designer 9 is in evaluation (we were 
considering Adobe InDesign, but I am nixing that purchase).

- Acrobat Pro:  Still looking for a suitable alternative. Many products 
work from a _basic_ PDF generation perspective, but the pdfmark conversion 
issue that that Rick Quatro mentioned is real - at least from FrameMaker 
documents at the moment! The CEO of one of the companies with a PDF generation 
product is a high-school/college buddy friend of mine, and I am going to meet 
with him in a few weeks to discuss a long-term fix for these xref->hyperlink 
requirements for their products. 

- Video editing:MAGIX Movie Edit Pro 2013 Plus and Final Cut 
Pro (we were considering Adobe Premiere, but we stopped that purchase).

- Screen capture:   TechSmith SnagIt 11 (we were not using any Adobe 
product for this function though).

- Presentation Capture: TechSmith Camtasia 8 (we were not using any Adobe 
product for this function).

- Memos & short docs:   Microsoft Word 2013 (I have _already_ moved away from 
FrameMaker for these short memos and documents personally - most everyone else 
in the company is already on Word, and we are probably going to abandon all 
five or six of our other older FrameMaker 7.2 licenses, that have not been 
upgraded).

- Longer docs:  Still evaluating alternatives (but I am no longer using 
FrameMaker 11 for _any_ new documents anymore - no reason to propagate a 
problem). Many new documents are being created on Confluence, and we will do 
PDF generation (on-demand). I will evaluate Mif2Go for transitioning all older 
FrameMaker documents to Confluence - that project has not yet started.

- Specifications:   Considering TeX and LaTeX for alternatives and 
on-line Wiki Confluence pages too - have not yet started evaluations. Expect to 
do so in the next few months.

Hope this helps people who are as amazed (to put it mildly) by Adobe's policies 
as I am ... :(  It sure sounds like you are in the same camp, although others 
appear to be following the Adobe CC future route.

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 8:31 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

Steve, I'm with you. I used to be a huge Adobe fan. I have loved and praised 
Adobe software far and wide. It's not cheap, but it is very capable and works 
very well. Now, I find myself hating Adobe. I'm not just disappointed with the 
CC subscription model, I'm fuming. I complain about it every chance I get. I've 
started or participated in threads all over the Web. I've complained to 
friends. I've bored my wife to tears with my lamentations. Just yesterday, I 
fired off a letter to the editor of PC World in response to the current issue's 
article on subscription software. I am not happy.

Like you, I have no intention of subscribing to CC. EVER. I have happily 
(well... relatively) paid around $400 per year to upgrade my existing CC 
software. I have bought every CS version upgrade. But I will not pay
$600 per year for the rest of my life to keep access to my existing
files-- or to gain access to just one new feature above what I already have. It 
looks like CS6 is my last version. It's pretty darned good. So it's not much of 
a sacrifice.

I apologize for helping this topic spill into the FrameMaker arena where, so 
far, the subscription model has not been forced on us. 
Hopefull

Re: OT: Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (again)

[Mike Wickham]

Steve, I'm with you. I used to be a huge Adobe fan. I have loved and 
praised Adobe software far and wide. It's not cheap, but it is very 
capable and works very well. Now, I find myself hating Adobe. I'm not 
just disappointed with the CC subscription model, I'm fuming. I complain 
about it every chance I get. I've started or participated in threads all 
over the Web. I've complained to friends. I've bored my wife to tears 
with my lamentations. Just yesterday, I fired off a letter to the editor 
of PC World in response to the current issue's article on subscription 
software. I am not happy.


Like you, I have no intention of subscribing to CC. EVER. I have happily 
(well... relatively) paid around $400 per year to upgrade my existing CC 
software. I have bought every CS version upgrade. But I will not pay 
$600 per year for the rest of my life to keep access to my existing 
files-- or to gain access to just one new feature above what I already 
have. It looks like CS6 is my last version. It's pretty darned good. So 
it's not much of a sacrifice.


I apologize for helping this topic spill into the FrameMaker arena 
where, so far, the subscription model has not been forced on us. 
Hopefully, Adobe won't also make that bad decision or they will find 
that they have lost the last bit of their revenue stream from me.


Return the upgrade path option to CS6! Boycott CC until Adobe relents.

Mike Wickham

On 7/12/2013 5:46 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

I have just had a software vendor ring me to enquire about my future software 
needs, and to extol the virtues of Adobe's 'creative cloud', which she had just 
finished training up on.

Boy did she get more than she was bargaining for ;-)

I pointed out that I had been planning to upgrade (with full version purchase 
in many cases due to the age of my versions), at least Illustrator, 
Dreamweaver, Acrobat Pro, InDesign, Fireworks and Flash (I have already 
upgraded FrameMaker), but that Adobe no longer has anything to sell me. She 
then asked me what alternatives I was planning, and I responded that as there 
were no credible alternatives to many or all of these, I was considering 
retirement as an option.

The idea that I would have to pay Adobe for the rest of my life to retain 
access to legacy material does not appeal, to say the least.

I know this has been aired here before, but I just needed to let off steam.



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