Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Oh heavens,I do miss work prints 2014-07-07 10:16 GMT-04:00 laska jimsen : > Thanks so much, John and Jodie! > > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, John Woods wrote: > >> I did use FCP to get an edit list in 2009. I used SD video with burn in >> code. Got Flex files from a transfer from Deluxe Vancouver. The used Cinema >> Tools to convert the files at home. However as I recall there was a few >> kinks in the workflow. Normally my digital edits are chaotic with clips >> stacked all over themselves on the timeline and this caused problems when I >> created the initial EDL. An editor pal said that I needed to simplify the >> timeline. So I re-arranged the cut onto a single line and also had to make >> sure that I used the fade/dissolve tools rather than using the 'pen' tool >> to create my own fades. I double checked the EDL with the burn in code and >> it was perfect! >> >> With a 24fps HD timeline I don't see why it wouldn't work. As per Jodies >> advice. Do everything very simple and clean and you'll be fine. >> >> John >> >> >>On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:48:56 AM, Jodie >> wrote: >> >> >> Hello Laska, >> >> I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List >> > Neg Cutter) after this thread. >> It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually >> frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence. >> For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there >> are ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no >> scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide >> inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against, >> but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused >> Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After >> removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you >> definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage. >> So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your >> sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at >> the same frame number as your cut list and so on. >> >> For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply >> counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my >> video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's >> not time, but frames are frames! >> >> Good luck! >> >> Jodie Mack >> Assistant Professor of Animation >> Dartmouth College >> www.jodiemack.com >> >> ___ >> FrameWorks mailing list >> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks >> >> >> >> ___ >> FrameWorks mailing list >> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks >> >> > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (laska jimsen)
Hi Laska, This is do-able, still using the FCP 7 > Cinematools > neg conform workflow. Of course, since HD files don't have the luxury of TC burn-in like the old SD tape-transfers did (outside TV Safe), you are not able to see the edge numbers on the digital transfer. The way I work around this is to manually log the first frame of picture - check the neg physically then write down the edge # just as it might appear in a TC burn in. Then follow all the usual steps, entering the first frame edge number into Cinematools, making sure that your clip begins with that same EXACT first frame. and your Edit list at the end should be correct. Should be. Sometimes I randomly have numbers missing and I check the picture (on the neg!) against the video edit to the extent that I can. This all assumes you are doing the neg conform yourself, not sending it out, b/c it is pretty wonky. But it's worked for me twice! Sasha On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:00 AM, wrote: > Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to > frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest..." > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (laska jimsen) >2. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (Jodie) >3. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (John Woods) >4. Paris + London (leandro listorti) >5. Re: Paris + London (Pip Chodorov) >6. Re: Paris + London (nicky.ham...@talktalk.net) > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: laska jimsen > To: Experimental Film Discussion List > Cc: > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 10:07:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm > Trying again now that Frameworks is back up and running > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:13 AM, laska jimsen wrote: > >> I'm digging up this old thread to see if anyone has any additional >> thoughts/experience/advice about this workflow. >> >> I'm still using FCP7 and would love to transfer the film to HD and use >> that edit as a digital master while simultaneously generating an EDL >> through CinemaTools to cut the film. I did the Film > Telecine > >> FCP/CinemaTools > EDL > Neg Cutter workflow many years ago in SD and an >> older version of FCP and it was absolutely frame perfect. But it sounds >> like that may be a bust in HD? >> >> Thanks for any advice! >> >> Best, >> >> Laska >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Amy Basen wrote: >> >>> Hey Jodie, >>> I thought the same thing. The keycode is in the metadata so you don't >>> need the window burn (except when you do). >>> >>> My EDL did not match my neg because my flex files were a total mess. >>> Fotokem did the telecine to HDCAM, created the ProRes files and created the >>> flex files. I thought I was saving time and money. It should have worked, >>> but it turned into a massive headache instead. I had to crosscheck the >>> Cinema Tools flex file keycode against the ProRes file which I checked >>> against the work print - then I had to enter the actual/accurate keycode >>> manually in Cinema Tools. It really makes you doubt when cutting your neg. >>> >>> Editing from a window burn version doesn't guarantee against bad EDLs. >>> My friend had the EDL problem as well, but was able to crosscheck against >>> his window burn. It makes it easier to correct and to do so confidently. I >>> completely understand neg cutters requiring that. >>> >>> Skipping a step is only a time saver if the step was unnecessary which >>> can only be determined in hindsight. >>> >>> If you still want to go that route, I would recommend you make sure the >>> lab knows which version of FCP you are using. They need to make the flex >>> files in that version and you need to stay in that version. This all >>> happened when the school was between 6 and 7, so it could have caused or >>> exacerbated the problem, but Fotokem wasn't sure. >>> >>> :) >>> amy >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jodie Mack >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>&g
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Thanks so much, John and Jodie! On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, John Woods wrote: > I did use FCP to get an edit list in 2009. I used SD video with burn in > code. Got Flex files from a transfer from Deluxe Vancouver. The used Cinema > Tools to convert the files at home. However as I recall there was a few > kinks in the workflow. Normally my digital edits are chaotic with clips > stacked all over themselves on the timeline and this caused problems when I > created the initial EDL. An editor pal said that I needed to simplify the > timeline. So I re-arranged the cut onto a single line and also had to make > sure that I used the fade/dissolve tools rather than using the 'pen' tool > to create my own fades. I double checked the EDL with the burn in code and > it was perfect! > > With a 24fps HD timeline I don't see why it wouldn't work. As per Jodies > advice. Do everything very simple and clean and you'll be fine. > > John > > > On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:48:56 AM, Jodie > wrote: > > > Hello Laska, > > I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List > > Neg Cutter) after this thread. > It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually > frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence. > For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there are > ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no > scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide > inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against, > but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused > Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After > removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you > definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage. > So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your > sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at > the same frame number as your cut list and so on. > > For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply > counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my > video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's > not time, but frames are frames! > > Good luck! > > Jodie Mack > Assistant Professor of Animation > Dartmouth College > www.jodiemack.com > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
I did use FCP to get an edit list in 2009. I used SD video with burn in code. Got Flex files from a transfer from Deluxe Vancouver. The used Cinema Tools to convert the files at home. However as I recall there was a few kinks in the workflow. Normally my digital edits are chaotic with clips stacked all over themselves on the timeline and this caused problems when I created the initial EDL. An editor pal said that I needed to simplify the timeline. So I re-arranged the cut onto a single line and also had to make sure that I used the fade/dissolve tools rather than using the 'pen' tool to create my own fades. I double checked the EDL with the burn in code and it was perfect! With a 24fps HD timeline I don't see why it wouldn't work. As per Jodies advice. Do everything very simple and clean and you'll be fine. John On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:48:56 AM, Jodie wrote: Hello Laska, I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List > Neg Cutter) after this thread. It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence. For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there are ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against, but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage. So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at the same frame number as your cut list and so on. For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's not time, but frames are frames! Good luck! Jodie Mack Assistant Professor of Animation Dartmouth College www.jodiemack.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Hello Laska, I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List > Neg Cutter) after this thread.It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence.For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there are ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against, but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage. So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at the same frame number as your cut list and so on. For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's not time, but frames are frames! Good luck! Jodie MackAssistant Professor of AnimationDartmouth Collegewww.jodiemack.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Trying again now that Frameworks is back up and running On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:13 AM, laska jimsen wrote: > I'm digging up this old thread to see if anyone has any additional > thoughts/experience/advice about this workflow. > > I'm still using FCP7 and would love to transfer the film to HD and use > that edit as a digital master while simultaneously generating an EDL > through CinemaTools to cut the film. I did the Film > Telecine > > FCP/CinemaTools > EDL > Neg Cutter workflow many years ago in SD and an > older version of FCP and it was absolutely frame perfect. But it sounds > like that may be a bust in HD? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Best, > > Laska > > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Amy Basen wrote: > >> Hey Jodie, >> I thought the same thing. The keycode is in the metadata so you don't >> need the window burn (except when you do). >> >> My EDL did not match my neg because my flex files were a total mess. >> Fotokem did the telecine to HDCAM, created the ProRes files and created the >> flex files. I thought I was saving time and money. It should have worked, >> but it turned into a massive headache instead. I had to crosscheck the >> Cinema Tools flex file keycode against the ProRes file which I checked >> against the work print - then I had to enter the actual/accurate keycode >> manually in Cinema Tools. It really makes you doubt when cutting your neg. >> >> Editing from a window burn version doesn't guarantee against bad EDLs. My >> friend had the EDL problem as well, but was able to crosscheck against his >> window burn. It makes it easier to correct and to do so confidently. I >> completely understand neg cutters requiring that. >> >> Skipping a step is only a time saver if the step was unnecessary which >> can only be determined in hindsight. >> >> If you still want to go that route, I would recommend you make sure the >> lab knows which version of FCP you are using. They need to make the flex >> files in that version and you need to stay in that version. This all >> happened when the school was between 6 and 7, so it could have caused or >> exacerbated the problem, but Fotokem wasn't sure. >> >> :) >> amy >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jodie Mack >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Calling all contemporary workflow afficionados! >>> >>> >>> >>> I am working on a new 16mm project and considering making an EDL from a >>> telecine via Cinema Tools and FCP. From the EDL, I will cut my >>> negative and make a sound print via A/B rolls. >>> >>> >>> >>> This will be my first time using a telecine and Cinema Tools to edit, >>> and most of the information I've found involves a two-transfer telecine >>> process (all dailies in SD first then select shots from EDL in HD). >>> >>> >>> >>> My shooting ratio is fairly low. I'd like to avoid transferring twice >>> and use my HD edit as my video master. So, if possible, I'd like to just go >>> ahead and transfer my rushes to HD Pro Res 24fps (no window burn) with >>> Evertz keylog file, edit in FCP, generate an EDL, and cut my negative >>> without running into any issues (3:2 pulldown or otherwise). Can any of you >>> foresee any problems with this simplified, online-all-the-time workflow? >>> >>> >>> >>> Am I being naïve? I feel like this method could work for me - the two >>> transfer process seems designed for large-scale productions. >>> >>> >>> >>> If any of you have worked this way or teach this workflow, I'd surely >>> appreciate any advice you can offer. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jodie Mack >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> FrameWorks mailing list >>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Amy Basen >> California Institute of the Arts >> Film Services Manager >> 24700 McBean Parkway >> Valencia, CA 91355 >> 661-253-7886 >> >> ___ >> FrameWorks mailing list >> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks >> >> > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Hi Jodie, I had problems too - on my feature documentary, the sync drifted in FCP for no apparent reason, and we had a lot of tweaking to do in Cinema Tools. I was told that this is the fault of FCP which does not handle 2K very well, but I was assured by experts that if I had done it in Avid I would have had no problem. But you may save a headache and make an SD transfer, cut and print the film neg and simply HD telecine your answer print. I had a similar problem on a 12-minute 16mm film that my friend insisted on cutting digitally and timing to a precise sound track on FCP. We cut the work print to conform to the video, threw it up on the steenbeck with the digital track synced on ProTools (steenbeck and mac are hardwired to stay in sync), but the cues did not line up. So we made a mag track, tweaked the cut to lock exactly, cut the neg accordingly and printed from that. In that case however her video edit can still serve as a master. In both cases we got the final result we wanted and it didn't cost extra, but I think we wasted three times as much time. Sorry to disappoint, but film is physical, frame for frame, locked to the sound, nothing can go wrong. -Pip ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Hey Jodie, I thought the same thing. The keycode is in the metadata so you don't need the window burn (except when you do). My EDL did not match my neg because my flex files were a total mess. Fotokem did the telecine to HDCAM, created the ProRes files and created the flex files. I thought I was saving time and money. It should have worked, but it turned into a massive headache instead. I had to crosscheck the Cinema Tools flex file keycode against the ProRes file which I checked against the work print - then I had to enter the actual/accurate keycode manually in Cinema Tools. It really makes you doubt when cutting your neg. Editing from a window burn version doesn't guarantee against bad EDLs. My friend had the EDL problem as well, but was able to crosscheck against his window burn. It makes it easier to correct and to do so confidently. I completely understand neg cutters requiring that. Skipping a step is only a time saver if the step was unnecessary which can only be determined in hindsight. If you still want to go that route, I would recommend you make sure the lab knows which version of FCP you are using. They need to make the flex files in that version and you need to stay in that version. This all happened when the school was between 6 and 7, so it could have caused or exacerbated the problem, but Fotokem wasn't sure. :) amy On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jodie Mack wrote: > > > > Calling all contemporary workflow afficionados! > > > > I am working on a new 16mm project and considering making an EDL from a > telecine via Cinema Tools and FCP. From the EDL, I will cut my negative > and make a sound print via A/B rolls. > > > > This will be my first time using a telecine and Cinema Tools to edit, and > most of the information I’ve found involves a two-transfer telecine process > (all dailies in SD first then select shots from EDL in HD). > > > > My shooting ratio is fairly low. I’d like to avoid transferring twice and > use my HD edit as my video master. So, if possible, I’d like to just go > ahead and transfer my rushes to HD Pro Res 24fps (no window burn) with > Evertz keylog file, edit in FCP, generate an EDL, and cut my negative > without running into any issues (3:2 pulldown or otherwise). Can any of you > foresee any problems with this simplified, online-all-the-time workflow? > > > > Am I being naïve? I feel like this method could work for me - the two > transfer process seems designed for large-scale productions. > > > > If any of you have worked this way or teach this workflow, I’d surely > appreciate any advice you can offer. > > > > All the best, > > > > Jodie Mack > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > -- Amy Basen California Institute of the Arts Film Services Manager 24700 McBean Parkway Valencia, CA 91355 661-253-7886 ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
I think that could work. When I did my film using the SD burn in, it was because the neg cutter insisted on a copy of the film with burn in to confirm all the cuts she was to make. Also since I had a fair amount of film, it was cheaper to do that and then just transfer to HD my timed print. I suppose the man disadvantage of your approach is that you won't get the benefit of actually timing your finished film for HD. You'll just have to time the raw footage as best you can and tweak it with FCP's limited tools. I used FCP & Cinema tools for my project a few years ago (I think it was FCP v6). It worked nicely, but the main advice I have for you is to make sure your final timeline has all the clips in one single line and that you use FCP's fade and dissolve tools. I found that when I originally did my EDL export because I had confusing, multi-layered & elaborate timeline (like all my video projects!) that the EDL was missing things. But once simplified, it was frame accurate. John From: Jodie Mack To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:42:19 PM Subject: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm Calling all contemporary workflow afficionados! I am working on a new 16mm project and considering making an EDL from a telecine via Cinema Tools and FCP. From the EDL, I will cut my negative and make a sound print via A/B rolls. This will be my first time using a telecine and Cinema Tools to edit, and most of the information I’ve found involves a two-transfer telecine process (all dailies in SD first then select shots from EDL in HD). My shooting ratio is fairly low. I’d like to avoid transferring twice and use my HD edit as my video master. So, if possible, I’d like to just go ahead and transfer my rushes to HD Pro Res 24fps (no window burn) with Evertz keylog file, edit in FCP, generate an EDL, and cut my negative without running into any issues (3:2 pulldown or otherwise). Can any of you foresee any problems with this simplified, online-all-the-time workflow? Am I being naïve? I feel like this method could work for me - the two transfer process seems designed for large-scale productions. If any of you have worked this way or teach this workflow, I’d surely appreciate any advice you can offer. All the best, Jodie Mack ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
Calling all contemporary workflow afficionados! I am working on a new 16mm project and considering making an EDL from a telecine via Cinema Tools and FCP. From the EDL, I will cut my negative and make a sound print via A/B rolls. This will be my first time using a telecine and Cinema Tools to edit, and most of the information I’ve found involves a two-transfer telecine process (all dailies in SD first then select shots from EDL in HD). My shooting ratio is fairly low. I’d like to avoid transferring twice and use my HD edit as my video master. So, if possible, I’d like to just go ahead and transfer my rushes to HD Pro Res 24fps (no window burn) with Evertz keylog file, edit in FCP, generate an EDL, and cut my negative without running into any issues (3:2 pulldown or otherwise). Can any of you foresee any problems with this simplified, online-all-the-time workflow? Am I being naïve? I feel like this method could work for me - the two transfer process seems designed for large-scale productions. If any of you have worked this way or teach this workflow, I’d surely appreciate any advice you can offer. All the best, Jodie Mack ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
