Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Jeff Kreines]

On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Rick Prelinger  wrote:

> We scan around 350,000 frames a day  on our Muller scanner. A two-shift 
> operation working with fully-assembled small gauge reels would typically run 
> over a million frames/day per scanner.

Scanning speed is usually related to resolution, as higher-resolution sensors 
(with global shutters and good dynamic range, usually CCDs) are slower than 
lower resolution sensors.  Our 3296 x 2472 sensor can scan at 20+ fps, but our 
5K sensor can only scan at 8 fps.  At 20 fps, in a 16 hour 2-shift day, that's 
about 1.1 million frames at 3.3K.  What is the resolution of the Mueller?
> 
> The AEO-Light software Matt uses to read and convert optical tracks is great, 
> but it's far from real-time at this point.

Now called AEO-Sound.  The PC version runs at about 1/3 realtime, which is a 
huge improvement.  Interestingly, you can run several threads of it at the same 
time.  One Kinetta owner runs eleven copies of it at night on a Mac, which 
effectively speeds things up.  The quality of AE0-Sound is far better than most 
analog reproducers, and it deals with problem tracks -- negative tracks, VD 
tracks, mis-positioned tracks -- very well.  Plus, no added wow-and-flutter 
from analog reproduction.  Kudos to the father of AEo-Sound, Greg Wilsbacher at 
the University of South Carolina, who scans a lot of 35mm newsreel negative 
with AEO-Light negative VD tracks on his Kinetta.

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
j...@kinetta.com
kinetta.com




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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[chris bravo]

also, the magic lantern firmware hack (http://www.magiclantern.fm/) allows
customizable FPS in video mode  (ie: w/o shutter), that might provide a
workaround


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Francisco Torres wrote:

> Whatever happened to shooting from the side of a fridge? (like Guy Madiin)
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Rick Prelinger wrote:
>
>> We scan around 350,000 frames a day  on our Muller scanner. A two-shift
>> operation working with fully-assembled small gauge reels would typically
>> run over a million frames/day per scanner.
>>
>> The AEO-Light software Matt uses to read and convert optical tracks is
>> great, but it's far from real-time at this point.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Prelinger
>> Prelinger Library & Archives
>> San Francisco, California, USA
>> foot...@panix.com
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Francisco Torres]

Whatever happened to shooting from the side of a fridge? (like Guy Madiin)


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Rick Prelinger  wrote:

> We scan around 350,000 frames a day  on our Muller scanner. A two-shift
> operation working with fully-assembled small gauge reels would typically
> run over a million frames/day per scanner.
>
> The AEO-Light software Matt uses to read and convert optical tracks is
> great, but it's far from real-time at this point.
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Prelinger
> Prelinger Library & Archives
> San Francisco, California, USA
> foot...@panix.com
>
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Rick Prelinger]

We scan around 350,000 frames a day  on our Muller scanner. A two-shift 
operation working with fully-assembled small gauge reels would typically run 
over a million frames/day per scanner.

The AEO-Light software Matt uses to read and convert optical tracks is great, 
but it's far from real-time at this point.

Rick

Rick Prelinger
Prelinger Library & Archives
San Francisco, California, USA
foot...@panix.com

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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Scott Dorsey]

Well, there's nothing wrong with a mechanical shutter... it just needs to be
a shutter designed for the job like, say, a rotating disc shutter as
used for motion picture work
--scott
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Florian Cramer]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 3:40 PM, George, Sherman  wrote:

Seems like the way to solve the mirror problem is with a Sony NEX camera.


The NEX has a mechanical shutter, too, and is rated for 100,000 shutter
activations. Presence or absence of a mirror box is not the issue per se.
To my knowledge, the only mirrorless camera that can shoot single images
with an electronic shutter is the Nikon V2. (Whose sensor isn't as good as
those of the SLRs; and AFAIK, it can't be easily triggered remotely by
software.)

Florian
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[George, Sherman]

Seems like the way to solve the mirror problem is with a Sony NEX camera.
Sherman George


On Jul 17, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> The jitter issue is less severe than it might have been, since the edges of
> the frame can be located digitally and each frame recentered individually.
> With film that has shrunk at all this becomes important anyway.
> 
> But... the issue of wearing out the shutter is a very serious one that I
> had not thought of.
> 
> The thing is... there are so many good scanners out there right now.  Most
> of them aren't cheap, but they are cheap enough that purchasing time on one
> of them isn't terribly expensive.  It's hard to beat the Kinetta for print
> scanning these days, I think, and it's not much more money to get a Kinetta
> run than a boatanchor NTSC scanner.
> --scott
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Sherman George
sgeo...@ucsd.edu
858-229-4368



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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Scott Dorsey]

The jitter issue is less severe than it might have been, since the edges of
the frame can be located digitally and each frame recentered individually.
With film that has shrunk at all this becomes important anyway.

But... the issue of wearing out the shutter is a very serious one that I
had not thought of.

The thing is... there are so many good scanners out there right now.  Most
of them aren't cheap, but they are cheap enough that purchasing time on one
of them isn't terribly expensive.  It's hard to beat the Kinetta for print
scanning these days, I think, and it's not much more money to get a Kinetta
run than a boatanchor NTSC scanner.
--scott
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Jon Dieringer]

The idea of using the collection in Jordan as a guinea pig is troubling.
re: Florian's last point, a lot of it seems to be small gauge.


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Florian Cramer  wrote:

> I do have some questions:
> - The construction is not fundamentally different from other
> frame-by-frame scanners such Müller HM73, Moviestuff or Richard Tuohy's
> $1000-$3000 DIY telecine machine.
> - The use of a digital SLR camera instead of an industrial video camera
> will produce better image quality, but also lead to deterioration of the
> machine. Canon and NIkon SLR cameras are typically specified for
> 100,000-150,000 shutter releases. Shooting frame by frame, this will mean
> that you need to service or replace the camera after every 70-105 minutes
> (!) of film that has been scanned.
> - The film transport is not as precise as with the above machines - this
> could result in jitter issues particularly with 16 and 8mm film. The video
> demo shows 35mm film digitization, but the smaller the format, the better
> the machine needs to be.
>
> -F
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:58 AM, Nicholas Kovats wrote:
>
>> This is an amazing open source scanner project by  Maththew Epler.
>> Watch the presentation video here, i.e. http://mepler.com/Kinograph
>> Here is his thesis presentation where he details his work and amazing
>> antedote whereby the King of Jordan injects $10K in startup funds due
>> to the discovery of historical 35mm film of his predecessor, his
>> father, i.e. https://vimeo.com/66766340#
>> The official Kinograph web site, i.e. http://kinograph.cc/
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Re: [Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Florian Cramer]

I do have some questions:
- The construction is not fundamentally different from other frame-by-frame
scanners such Müller HM73, Moviestuff or Richard Tuohy's $1000-$3000 DIY
telecine machine.
- The use of a digital SLR camera instead of an industrial video camera
will produce better image quality, but also lead to deterioration of the
machine. Canon and NIkon SLR cameras are typically specified for
100,000-150,000 shutter releases. Shooting frame by frame, this will mean
that you need to service or replace the camera after every 70-105 minutes
(!) of film that has been scanned.
- The film transport is not as precise as with the above machines - this
could result in jitter issues particularly with 16 and 8mm film. The video
demo shows 35mm film digitization, but the smaller the format, the better
the machine needs to be.

-F


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:58 AM, Nicholas Kovats  wrote:

> This is an amazing open source scanner project by  Maththew Epler.
> Watch the presentation video here, i.e. http://mepler.com/Kinograph
> Here is his thesis presentation where he details his work and amazing
> antedote whereby the King of Jordan injects $10K in startup funds due
> to the discovery of historical 35mm film of his predecessor, his
> father, i.e. https://vimeo.com/66766340#
> The official Kinograph web site, i.e. http://kinograph.cc/
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[Frameworks] The $3, 000 open source multi-format 8/16/35 scanner project called Kinograph

[Nicholas Kovats]

This is an amazing open source scanner project by  Maththew Epler.
Watch the presentation video here, i.e. http://mepler.com/Kinograph
Here is his thesis presentation where he details his work and amazing
antedote whereby the King of Jordan injects $10K in startup funds due
to the discovery of historical 35mm film of his predecessor, his
father, i.e. https://vimeo.com/66766340#
The official Kinograph web site, i.e. http://kinograph.cc/
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