Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Giorgos Keramidas wrote: On 2008-01-18 17:27, Lars Engels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:34:33PM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: If you mean by disconnected the people who appear once and ask something that can be answered by telling them to read a certain chapter in the handbook or one of the 120 HowTos we have written and collected (I have offered to the doc-mailing list to translate some to English, but that has been ignored), Why do you need to ask first? Do you think that it would have been rejected if you presented a translated version? Fair point. I think that 120 'article-like' additions to our existing article collection stand a pretty good chance of including a *lot* of useful material. It would be a bit silly to reject an offer like that because it was written by 'disconnected' people. Dominic, if you get some (or evel all?) of these howtos translated to English, I offer my help to get them integrated into our doc tree. The offer still stands, so thank you. I'll be selective about what I translate and I'm just at the beginning of my exam session, so you'll need some patience before I've got anything to show off. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On 2008-01-20 23:24, Dominic Fandrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giorgos Keramidas wrote: Fair point. I think that 120 'article-like' additions to our existing article collection stand a pretty good chance of including a *lot* of useful material. It would be a bit silly to reject an offer like that because it was written by 'disconnected' people. Dominic, if you get some (or evel all?) of these howtos translated to English, I offer my help to get them integrated into our doc tree. The offer still stands, so thank you. I'll be selective about what I translate and I'm just at the beginning of my exam session, so you'll need some patience before I've got anything to show off. Excellent! There's no rush. Please take your time. I just wanted to make it clear that if you start pushing translated material our way, I will be here to help. Cheers, Giorgos ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On 2008-01-18 17:27, Lars Engels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:34:33PM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote: If you mean by disconnected the people who appear once and ask something that can be answered by telling them to read a certain chapter in the handbook or one of the 120 HowTos we have written and collected (I have offered to the doc-mailing list to translate some to English, but that has been ignored), Why do you need to ask first? Do you think that it would have been rejected if you presented a translated version? Fair point. I think that 120 'article-like' additions to our existing article collection stand a pretty good chance of including a *lot* of useful material. It would be a bit silly to reject an offer like that because it was written by 'disconnected' people. Dominic, if you get some (or evel all?) of these howtos translated to English, I offer my help to get them integrated into our doc tree. - Giorgos ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Sunday, January 13, 2008, 6:29:03 AM, you wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, johan beisser wrote: Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. That doesn't let you go both ways though, although just being able to browse forums in a usenet like way would be much nicer.. Well, you can find RSS to Usenet gateways. I've written a small one myself and I'm routinely using it (http://news.lacave.net/rss - the page is in french, but there's an english INSTALL file). HTH, Fred -- ...it's about damn time that all of us who actually give a damn about Usenet stand up and tell the people who don't to fuck off and die. (Russ Allbery) ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Bernd Walter wrote: Oliver Fromme wrote: Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables -c none in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people. :-) This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. May I have your patch? Sure. I just wrote a small readme file and put it on an web server: http://www.secnetix.de/olli/patches/openssh/ Actually the patch is small and trivial, because the none cipher support code is still there, it just has been disabled in the source at various places. The patch applies to RELENG_6, RELENG_7 and 8-current, so this is finally on-topic on the freebsd-current list. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker -- Daniel C. Sobral ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mail-usenet gateway / web-forum (was Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community)
A web forum is a nice thing to have. I haven't found one that I am comfortable with security wise. A lot of people use our archives and a small but non trivial number post via our newsgroups. Most browsers no longer ship with a built-in nntp/news protocol, though (not sure about IE). We use MHONARC to make our mailing list archives available via the web. It works very well but it is read-only. FreeBSD might want to look into it, the UI is pretty friendly. We just use google to search it. USENET is basically dead (and has been for years), but the NNTP protocol itself is still quite nice. I never found the time to write a web-based forum using an NNTP backend. If anyone knows of such a beast, please email me! I'll include a quick summary of how to set up a mail-news gateway below but it may not be worth the hassle to do. I will say, however, that both DIABLO and INN are so stable that a news system is basically self-maintaining once you have the cron jobs to trim the logs and spools in place. I haven't actually had to touch our news subsystem in three years. Literally haven't even CD'ed into it or logged in as the news user in three years. You can't get much better then that. -- Setting up a mail-news gateway takes a few day, but once you have it working it is fairly self maintaining. * Set up a private news server, INN or DIABLO. Do NOT try to forward into the (now terribly maintained and broken) global usenet news system. * Enable NNTP access to the server. Typically enable anonymous access. * Add a forwarding email address to each mailing list you want to forward into the newsgroup. Feed the postings through a mail-usenet gateway. * Set up a cron job to pull postings made to the NEWS system back to the mailing list. The gateway program can be something like NNTPFWD, which is part of the bestserv mailing list manager tar: http://apollo.backplane.com/FreeSrc/bestserv-1.04.tgz (nntpfwd subdir) It is a stand-alone program and should work with any usenet news server. It should work with majordomo but may need minor adjustments to avoid mail-news loops. It uses NNTP and has options to take a mail feed so it can feed in both directions. There are four major issues when setting up a gateway. * Unless you've set up INN or DIABLO before, it can take a few days just understanding how all the bits and pieces work. * Security settings have to allow the gateway program to do the mail-news work without blocking or bouncing the messages/postings. Don't use an externally visible email address for the mail-news forwarding or it will get spammed. * Make sure you don't have forwarding loops between the mail and news gateway. Make sure you can post to the mailing list and have it show up on the newsgroup and NOT feed back to the mailing list, and make sure you can post to the newsgroup and have it show up on the mailing list and NOT feed back to the newsgroup. * After a few weeks check the disk usage of the news system and create cron jobs to trim the logs and/or news store appropriately. Once you do this the news gateway will be self maintaining. -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail-usenet gateway / web-forum (was Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community)
Matthew Dillon wrote: We use MHONARC to make our mailing list archives available via the web. It works very well but it is read-only. FreeBSD might want to look into it, the UI is pretty friendly. We just use google to search it. There is also something called gmane which already do this with FreeBSD(and other BSDs, and software projects). -- chs ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail-usenet gateway / web-forum (was Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - --On Sunday, January 13, 2008 13:32:20 -0800 Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: USENET is basically dead (and has been for years), but the NNTP protocol itself is still quite nice. I never found the time to write a web-based forum using an NNTP backend. If anyone knows of such a beast, please email me! I don't agree ... the PostgreSQL community gets a fair amount of traffic from USENET through its gateway, *but*, we do have MAIA in place to keep the spam off the lists, so what we get to the actual mailing lists through it is only the signal, no noise at all ... I'd definitely prefer to read freebsd.* newsgroups then deal with mailing lists ... - Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHiq7A4QvfyHIvDvMRAgQbAKCLyHTeRK5vEsQYF54YPUjz+XC3nwCgo+Mb C5iVshI6IlOoFDe+YYEPAeY= =fRLK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Oliver Fromme [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables -c none in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. Correct. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people. :-) Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it in a different way than it was already broken. I was very disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face crisis meeting between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an open letter from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Thus Dag-Erling Smørgrav [EMAIL PROTECTED] spake on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100: Oliver Fromme [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables -c none in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. Correct. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people. :-) Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it in a different way than it was already broken. I was very disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face crisis meeting between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an open letter from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we do need to find some way to bridge the gap. I have to admit that I live very much in that e-mail world: I tried following the PC-BSD web forums for a bit, but the fact that the messages failed to appear neatly in threads in my mail reader meant it was awkward and inconvenient, and wasn't part of my regular workflow in which I intermittently poll my mail reader while getting other work done, referencing it on occasion with explicit searches, etc. I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to meet many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:44:06PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Oliver Fromme [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. It is not only a native language forum it is a web based forum, which as such has a problem to attract persons which are deeper into the scene, since web based forums are not as simple to handle as tranditional mailing-lists without bringing anything on the pro side. I don't know if it is the largest German BSD community or not, but it is likely the German BSD community with the largest newcommer vs expirienced ratio. -- B.Walterhttp://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Robert Watson schrieb: I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to meet many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. There are several solutions for bridging mailing lists with a web interface/forum. Google groups is the most popular one, but there are also many other solutions, e.g. the Ruby folks use rforum to integrate several Ruby mailing lists with a forum like web interface. See http://www.ruby-forum.com/ for examples, rforum is available at http://rforum.andreas-s.net/ Jonathan Weiss -- Jonathan Weiss http://blog.innerewut.de ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Oliver Fromme [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. Since so many of us are subscribed to these mailing lists, I feel quite confident about saying that we are neither disconnected nor have created a mythology. If you mean by disconnected the people who appear once and ask something that can be answered by telling them to read a certain chapter in the handbook or one of the 120 HowTos we have written and collected (I have offered to the doc-mailing list to translate some to English, but that has been ignored), then in deed we are guilty - of keeping lots of newbies with trivial questions from these lists. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face crisis meeting between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an open letter from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. The flame-war is occurring here. It didn't happen on our forums. The first people to reply to the open letter did so in a very constructive fashion. They anticipated that our letter was the result of months long discussion and only described problems of senior community members, who all are subscribed to FreeBSD mailing lists. I personally have been flamed on IRC and received hate-mail, because I openly opposed translating developer documentation to German, because I think that such a translation favors a community split. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we do need to find some way to bridge the gap. A usenet-forum bridge would be nice since news looks enough like email for oldies to use :) Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Daniel O'Connor wrote: A usenet-forum bridge would be nice since news looks enough like email for oldies to use :) Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, johan beisser wrote: Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. That doesn't let you go both ways though, although just being able to browse forums in a usenet like way would be much nicer.. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Daniel O'Connor wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, johan beisser wrote: Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. That doesn't let you go both ways though, although just being able to browse forums in a usenet like way would be much nicer.. it's doable with a little bit of work. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
[moved to -chat from -current] Aryeh M. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [moved to -chat from -current] Aryeh M. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. Which was a response to a completely off the wall arg... as I have said this really should be moved to the newly purposed list. DES - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. Free software != Free beer Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh07AjRvRjGmHRgQRAiWpAJ9nqCJUYongSWvEtA7r5Kqeb/8QSwCeK+vT nG2mWmr3cYGVwE8OGFPXENk= =RkTC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:02:02AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: conspiracy hat onIs Aryeh funded by Microsoft?/conspiracy hat off :) There are more direct ways to ruin FOSS then what I am purposing... Interesting remark, are you confessing to? :) As fall of the USSR proves, indirect ways are much more powerfull, than direct ones (like declaring war, etc.) To speak seriously, any optional addition is confusing and misdirecting bla-bla (considering the possibility to ignore it) and any non-optional one immediatelly makes strong legal problems for users. -- http://ache.pp.ru/ ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Thus Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:00:24 +0100: Timo Schoeler wrote: Thus Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:12:25 +0100: Timo Schoeler wrote: It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant and well maintained. It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. But even if it doesn't go into the tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several years I maintained some patches that improved syscons (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked fine for me and a few others. But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was imported instead? This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other more important parts of the tree. No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't join the marathon...!) In almost all cases it does not. If they were not working on that lower priority code, they would not be working on your more important code anyway, unless they already wanted to do that. That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, why code at all? You are not listening to what we're telling you about how software developers work, You don't get the difference between how it was ten years ago and how it is today. This is not my problem. and you've also overridden the Reply-To: chat in my previous email, which is inappropriate. I apologize. :) I'm not going to exchange further emails with you on this topic, and you've also strongly encouraged me to also delete your future emails unread. You are a very mature guy with whom discussing on a non-polemic level is a great pleasure. (If you can find sarsasm [0] in this sentence, feel free to keep it. It's a gift.) Goodbye, Kris Have a nice day, Timo [0] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3hbUY3eBSqOgOMRCkMTAJ0Z+KkNsjsgJmNQGx2SN0FkZDyoMwCgo0vP UlJRlG9QwOWkUa1K+SSnUAM= =7vDY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 conspiracy hat onIs Aryeh funded by Microsoft?/conspiracy hat off :) There are more direct ways to ruin FOSS then what I am purposing... for example make it so only8 certified OS's are allowed on any machine and other things... - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. Free software != Free beer Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh2jJjRvRjGmHRgQRAtwpAKCkBHtK4uC6WwDzQf3utM62Gk49xACgri30 IcqFXs2blvrOElZd9Chqq0c= =+zm8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Note: Reply-To set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Timo Schoeler wrote: Oliver Fromme wrote: I think the real answer is: You cannot prevent anyone from writing a piece of software, no matter how useless or ridiculous it might be for the majority of users. I don't want to do this, either. Sorry, my argumentation on this was not clear enough... If there's someone who wants to write a driver for a USB christmas tree or for a bluetooth canned laughter device -- he will do it, and you can't keep him from doing it. So above, (s)he shall be happy doing so. It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant and well maintained. It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. No. You cannot force a _volunteer_ to work on anything other than the issue he wants to work on. That's why he is a volunteer. FreeBSD is mostly a project of volunteers, only a few of the developers are paid for what they're doing. But even if it doesn't go into the tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several years I maintained some patches that improved syscons (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked fine for me and a few others. But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables -c none in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people. :-) If so, why didn't it get into the tree? There are various reasons why patches don't hit the tree. Some have already been mentioned by Peter Schuller and others. In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Later I forgot about the whole thing because I had more important things to do. If I insisted at that time and submitted follow-ups to the PR with updated patches, it might really have been comitted. Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was imported instead? Priority depends on the point of view. Different people have different priorities. There are people for whom ZFS is top priority. Other people's top priority might be improvements on zero-copy sockets or TCP scaling. And yet others might have hot-plug-PCI support on top of their list because it's crucial for their jobs. There might as well be people whose top-priority is the USB xmas tree driver. Why not? OpenBSD gets this straight very well (and no, I'm no longer a fanboy of OpenBSD, if interested why, send me a PM). They put emphasis on security, and they get this job done very very well. OpenBSD doesn't force volunteers to work on things that they don't want to work on. It wouldn't work. You can't tell people how to waste their resources in their free time. They waste it on whatever they want, no matter what the FreeBSD project tells them, no matter if there's a strong leader or not. They can waste their own time, but they shouldn't waste others. How is writing a USB xmas tree driver wasting others' time? Well, if you submit it, another developer (maybe a comitter) will need some time to look at it, but again, that's voluntary. No volunteer is forced to look at it. In fact it might _save_ others' time who would otherwise have to start writing such a driver themselves. The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from FreeBSD (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company could no longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, because they had way too many problems with it), then a chain reaction is started. Actually I think that bsdforen.de issue is overrated (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Pride goes before a fall. Exactly. Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) Basically there are two problems here, the first being sub- optimal bug reports (e.g. missing details, problems with communication), and the second being a lack of committer manpower. Some pople have suggested ways to solve or at least alleviate the latter. Best regards Oliver PS: Reply-To set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Oliver
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:17:25PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables -c none in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people. :-) This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. May I have your patch? -- B.Walterhttp://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 redirected to -chat Astrodog wrote: I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. I don't think it's really needed. What's needed (and I fully understand why folks have been slow to invoke it) is, for a short while, to require folks to follow the mailing list rules a bit more closely, and applying certain sanctions should they violate them. Folks have been flagrantly breaking the rules, and justifying it by saying no one reads it then!, and if this isn't stopped, the list suffers. Maybe, at the start, just some sterner warnings might possily serve the purpose? But folks need to know that the list monitor is at least awake. --- Harrison ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh+mQz62J6PPcoOkRAr9XAKCA7KSqXoeRsh74LJaAf0rp8lQngwCfXdf+ k3NS7Bgq8+bwb0skPHHSv+c= =KmoY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Robey wrote: redirected to -chat Astrodog wrote: I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. I don't think it's really needed. What's needed (and I fully understand why folks have been slow to invoke it) is, for a short while, to require folks to follow the mailing list rules a bit more closely, and applying certain sanctions should they violate them. Folks have been flagrantly breaking the rules, and justifying it by saying no one reads it then!, and if this isn't stopped, the list suffers. Maybe, at the start, just some sterner warnings might possily serve the purpose? But folks need to know that the list monitor is at least awake. --- Harrison ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] As I said in the opening messages of the thread I would gladelly use such a list if one existed (which it doesn't now so we have the current situtation) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. Free software != Free beer Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiEk7jRvRjGmHRgQRAoJ5AJ4tfR+Cl3//F/LEFYoWRsH7TAgncACgj8+E esiWzdKKXQpt4F7aXD+DUk8= =VQPY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 redirected to -chat. Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Aryeh M. Friedman writes: We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong with the standard BSD license please? I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply I am fully with Wilko here. We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat our users over the head. We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent human beings. A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD developers employed at companies which understand that developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. We just need more of that. You know, there's more than one way to see that. I clearly recall being elated, at first, when I was first employed to do FreeBSD kernel work. I did that, and a bunch of daemon work, and (like I often do, for work) I got heavily into it, nearly to the exclusion of all available hobby time (I really do like messing with computers). You know what happened? I found I had no time left, at all, for hobby FreeBSD work and I even left the mailing lists. I didn't leave FreeBSD work, but as far as you folks were concerned, I might as well have. As far as I'm concerned, I think that getting employed to do FreeBSD work is one great way to stop doing hobby computing. Am I alone in this? And beyond that, the work I was doing was stuff that the FreeBSD community wouldn't have been terribly interested in. Yes, the company could have showed a touch more *give back to the community* sort of actions, but they wren['t really the reason that I left FreeBSD; I was. Am I alone in this? We also need to have better avenues for people who want to contribute but do not have the economic means to subsidize there work from some large company, gov. agency and/or university... i.e. there is no room for independent people to contribute on a full time basis... As I said in an other message this is not about saying the current has anything wrong with it, just that it can be improved. Volunteer efforts are great and I fully support them (such as my work on ports 2.0) but the larger they grow the harder it gets to do it all volunteer (every large non-profit has paid full-time employees after all)... to paraphrase an other organization I am involved in we should be completely self supporting through our own contributions... this includes more then just service it includes supporting those who do such service... BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd license it would be something as simple as: Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at http://..;. The (if any) wording is important because the licensor (FreeBSD) can elect to charge nothing but require work in kind for example. The actual amount of the fee and or works can be very small for such a large project like FreeBSD (less then $5/year) to make it 100% self supporting [no donations needed]. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsJIz62J6PPcoOkRAlnXAJ0expXdjt239MtUKyh+HYxS1Df67QCeJ4Qr MEY8DMk2LaYeiX68hmp2EjE= =U9Oh -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: Marian Hettwer wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first being a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect of thinking that open source by definition means free use of the products. Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as far I can tell that does not automatically and should not translate into not having some responibility to the community that created the project in the first place my approach (along with 3 other small software vendors) is to have a requirement to contribute back to the community in some form (in work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free software but not free beer. Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to start another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it on freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. a) I didn't start the thread and was keeping my comments to a min. b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one reads seriously it) Two points: first, folks read it. As crazy as it sounds, people actually read even the FreeBSD-test channel, where folks are directed *NOT* to read it. Want proof? Post something morally objectionable there (try praising M$) and see how fast the hatemail starts up. Its stupid, but true. Secondly, Even If It's True that one one reads it, it's flames: do you really think the topic is worth better handling than that? IMO most flames are written for the flamer, not the reader, so it might as well be sent to your neighborhood bathroom wall. BTW, I did redirect this to -chat. This really has nothing to do with the thread itself and with this mailing list in special. As two your second point see item b above. As to the first point the OP was complaining about very nebulous (but important) issues which I feel are symptomatic the larger issues I pointed out; thus even though it is not 100% on the actual complaints it is still an attempt to look at correcting them. - From previous experiences (both mine of others) the FreeBSD community tends to be way too conservative (yes it is good to be conservative but to the level we do it is pathological in some respects). For example I think it is clear that some work needs to be done to improve the ports system and I stepped up to volunteer to do most of the heavy lifting (with two others helping) and on -ports@ got never ending grief from people who thought that if it is not completely broke don't fix it. BTW when I was referring to other peoples experiences, one of my former bosses was one of the people who worked very hard to bring 386bsd to the masses (not Bill) and they turned me onto FreeBSD in the mid-90's... they no longer use any BSD because it was unable to keep pace with linux in areas they considered critical. I happen to be situated (extremely luckily given my general econ condition) to be able to volunteer with the ports 2.0 effort (it serves some of the long term goals of my company in ways that leave me with being more comfortable with giving away some free beer). This is not the case for some people and corporate support rarely helps recruit/retain such people (the reason is out of the scope of this thread). In short I am not saying there is anything wrong with the current model just that it can be improved and my experience with ports 2.0 has convienced me that a certain segment of the community is just too closed minded to even consider anything that is not already done. Thanks. To avoid this a list to discuss the business/legal aspects of FreeBSD would be a good thing. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsPCz62J6PPcoOkRAmZAAJ9/WztM/g08odMcLBF6E25oV4uzoACgoU/U 1gkRD6MMUoBZlkxmwaP84zU= =GwWY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Robey wrote: redirected to -chat. I just do reply all's so it goes where it goes... For a more complete set of answers to the below issues see: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=1424092+0+current/freebsd-current Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Aryeh M. Friedman writes: We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is wrong with the standard BSD license please? I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply I am fully with Wilko here. We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat our users over the head. We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent human beings. A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD developers employed at companies which understand that developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. We just need more of that. You know, there's more than one way to see that. I clearly recall being elated, at first, when I was first employed to do FreeBSD kernel work. I did that, and a bunch of daemon work, and (like I often do, for work) I got heavily into it, nearly to the exclusion of all available hobby time (I really do like messing with computers). You know what happened? I found I had no time left, at all, for hobby FreeBSD work and I even left the mailing lists. I didn't leave FreeBSD work, but as far as you folks were concerned, I might as well have. As far I know I am not purposing a system where you *MUST* recieve a reward for your work just where it is possible via more direct means then currently handled. As far as I'm concerned, I think that getting employed to do FreeBSD work is one great way to stop doing hobby computing. Am I alone in this? And beyond that, the work I was doing was stuff that the FreeBSD community wouldn't have been terribly interested in. Yes, the company could have showed a touch more *give back to the community* sort of actions, but they wren['t really the reason that I left FreeBSD; I was. Am I alone in this? But forcing everyone to do it as a hobby unless your lucky enough to work for an employer who supports the efforts is equal wrong. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. Free software != Free beer Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvhLjRvRjGmHRgQRAhQbAJ0dKUYrGlVKJ0CNJBC/yy7hmFEEWACgmtjE CvQh/CUtcGOrht3PvpFDFRE= =kwq8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
