Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
On 07/25/2016 12:00, twilight wrote: The only sad thing is that *BSD is actually dying. Linux is getting literally everywhere, spoiling standards with linuxisms and accepting blobs (that are still Linux-specific, so no hardware support even with blobs and no open specs also). So, losing contributors, that are going to more popular projects, lacking the hardware support and better to not talk about the dead FreeBSD media-advertising will eventually lead to a, at first, marginal haiku-like community and death of a bunch of little flavors (DragonFly BSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD), and, then, to the end of life of the system. So sad, that the money and legacy, not the efficiency and power make the modern IT world. I don't think BSD isn't going to die though. BSD is very appealing to those who is able to really appreciate technology. This is sadly a very small fraction of even those in the computer field. But still, FreeBSD has been active for decades now, and there is a pretty active community not showing any signs of dying. There will always be people who will be able to recognize greatness when they see it. I hope it will stay this way. Yuri ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
Wow, that's an amazing story. I've got much shorter (so as my life is) story: I've started out as a Windows user, as many of us. My first operating system was Windows 2000, the next system I used for a long time was Windows XP. When I was at the sixth grade I've found a book for computer newbies in my school library. It was very poorly written, it had lots of instructions like: "to start the volume control, pull the mouse cursor over the Start button in the bottom left corner. Then press the left button. Pull the cursor over the "All Programs" item and wait. Then...". But there was one good chapter. About hackers. About *real* hackers. It was the first time I've found out that such people exist, the book said that hackers "literally are the people upon whom internet is built". I was like "wow, I want to be the same". The book recommended to start with studying PHP, Perl, C and Lisp. I've searched in my home library and found a book about C (M. White, S. Prata, D. Marting C for beginners). It had funny illustrations and simple-given materials. After reading it I thought about myself as of a mega-hacker who knows more then anybody else. So, I started to write a Rubics cube assembler in C that was using exhaustive search. And, as I was amused with the beautiful recursion, no functions were returning, everything was called recursively. Literally. In the switch input-analyzer, in the "pick a move, test and check if assembled" cycle. Well, the program managed to solve problems made by up to 4 moves from the completed position. On the 5-move depth it always failed with SEGFAULT. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know about asm and stack overflow at that moment. So, I didn't manage to complete it. I've thought about *nix as superior system since I've read that book, but I didn't get any chance to install anything due to my weak system and the lack of knowledge. My first systems were P-III, 512 MiB, 18 GiB, TNT Riva; then an old Toshiba laptop (Intel Celeron 1.8 GhZ, 512 MiB, 40 GiB); then an 2004 Acer laptop (Amd Turion x64, 512 MiB, 80 GiB). On the last one I've attempted to install Ubuntu (when it still used Gnome 2), but I've struggled with lots of lags, and, as, I didn't have any hacker friends who could tell me that there are much more lightweight distributions and help to get the basics, I've moved back to Windows XP (but I was 100% sure, that I'll install Linux as soon as I could get more powerful computer to work with it). So, about 5 years ago I've purchased a MSi laptop with Nvidia 530m, Intel Core i3-3110m, 4096 MiB, 500 Gb and the first thing I've installed there (well, not the first, I've played a little with some popular games, but only for about 2 weeks to find out how shitty they are) was Ubuntu Linux. I didn't know anything about terminal, but I knew that working in the term was a superior way to use my computer. So, I've tried to program in vim(1) and compile in term with gcc. I've struggled a lot :D. Not because vim was beeping and corrupting everything, just, unusual interface, lack of any knowledge (I even didn't knew about man(1) pages, lol). Well, I've made my way through setting the wallpaper with cli commands, then reading about core utils, learning to ask questions, searching the web and reading man pages. That boosted my programming studying a lot. I've got used to vim and fell in love with it's editing paradigm, key combinations, hands-on-keyboard editing style. I wanted to know about everything (although I knew that it was impossible). I tried graphics (SDL, OpenGL, shaders a little bit), networking (programming), protocols, scripting, system calls, asm programming, GUI, system administration (simple), web (html, js, css), python as backend, C, of course. I tried to understand how processor works, how that bunch of electrons help me to run DooM. Also I tried to learn C++, well, OOP is not hard (as far as i know it), but C++ is really ugly. The overbloated standard, multiple ways to do the same, sucking in the standard every nice features pushed me away from C++ back to the only and holy C. After getting a little bit comfortable with Ubuntu, I've started distrohopping: I've tried Fedora, openSUSE, Mint, flavors of Ubuntu... Then I've read about Arch Linux. I've looked at it and thought "wow, that's cool". I've struggled with the first installation, as I've needed to do everything by hands. But, after few reinstallations, reading the arch wiki I've finally got to fell myself comfortable in the terminal. All the time I were using Linux I knew about *BSD, but I always thought "ha ha lol the are doing the second Linux, who would ever need that?", and with a bunch of bad people I was always waiting the time when *BSD will finally be buried for ever. But about 1 year ago I changed my mind and thought "why not try it?". I can't tell for sure what helped me to do that, maybe the fun and positive OpenBSD release songs and artwork or the articles about the "true UNIX, unlike
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:18:38 +0100 Kai Windlewrote: > So it is apologies. I don't know why I thought it was your's Andrew. > > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:21AM +, Andrew Perry wrote: > > Kai Windle wrote: > > > I've no doubt that as time progresses I'll have many questions. > > > But for now I'm happy to read the mailing lists when I can. I do > > > enjoy stories like Andrew Perry wrote just makes me smile about > > > the whole Windows 98 thing (so many memories of 28 day reinstall > > > cycles) > > > > ahhh that was Allen's story, mine is much longer and very boring ;-) That might be my fault. When I typed out that half my life story, I'd been drinking and I didn't remember if I'd quoted it properly or anything, so sorry about that guys :) -Allen ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
So it is apologies. I don't know why I thought it was your's Andrew. On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:21AM +, Andrew Perry wrote: > Kai Windle wrote: > > I've no doubt that as time progresses I'll have many questions. > > But for now I'm happy to read the mailing lists when I can. I do > > enjoy stories like Andrew Perry wrote just makes me smile about the > > whole Windows 98 thing (so many memories of 28 day reinstall cycles) > > ahhh that was Allen's story, mine is much longer and very boring ;-) > > > > This message may contain both confidential and privileged information > intended only for the addressee named above. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender > immediately then destroy the original message. > -- Kind Regards Kai Sent via Mutt Email Client / Gentoo ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
Hello, I have seen people hanging around on IRC. Myself, I've been on both IRC and the mailing lists just because while I've got FreeBSD installed on my home computer I still don't know enough so I'm mainly around just to learn more than anything else. Since I don't have many questions or much to contribute to just yet I've not 'done' much in the way of chat (in fact this is my first 'chat'). I've no doubt that as time progresses I'll have many questions. But for now I'm happy to read the mailing lists when I can. I do enjoy stories like Andrew Perry wrote just makes me smile about the whole Windows 98 thing (so many memories of 28 day reinstall cycles) Since I'm at work right now I don't have the time to add my 'story' so hopefully one day I'll get the time and add my own to this thread. One thing I do find useful but sometimes confusing is BSDNow Podcast while I don't fully understand everything they talk about I do find it sometimes a good source of information for things I didn't know. Anyway enough from me. Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 10:47:59PM -0400, Allen wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 07:22:18 + > Andrew Perrywrote: > > > funny, I actually unsubscribed from chat (and others) because I was > > getting too much traffic. At the time I couldn't deal with it (long > > story, divorce and messy real life stuff). I was surprised when I > > recently resubscribed and didn't get any messages. I thought I'd > > stuffed up. > > Personally I prefer the FreeBSD-Chat Mailing List over IRC, but that's > just simply my own personal preference. I'v been using this list on > and off for a very long time, but eventually my situation would after a > while change to where I had no time for Mailing Lists, but I'm glad I'm > back on here. > > It does help that I'm finally using FreeBSD as my main Desktop now > though. ;) > > I've been using FreeBSD on and off since 4.0-RELEASE. I actually still > remember way back then; I had only owned a Computer for like a year > or so at the time, and I was lucky enough to have some friends that > were Hackers. > > I thought that was amazing and I liked the idea that I could do things > with a Computer that could eventually lead to a career, and the fact > that I enjoyed doing it helped a lot too lol. > > I was talking with my at the time best friend, and he had been using > Computers for years, and I was just starting out, and didn't know much > of anything. > > I had a crappy PC with Windows 95 on it, and one night, I was kinda > drunk, and I accidentally destroyed it lol. I was working at the time, > so I did have a pay check coming in even though I still lived with my > Mom, and my main outgoing expense at that time, was my Horror Movie > Collection, and my CD Collection lol. So I went the very next day to > Best Buy, and picked out a new Computer. > > It was early 2,000 and it was the first time I had ever purchased a > Computer for myself, and I ended up buying an HP Pavilion Computer, and > it came with Windows 98 SE, 128 MBs of RAM, and a very odd 42.9 GB HD. > > It was only 42.9 GBs on Windows though; On Linux it was 43 GBs. I still > don't think I've ever seen another HD that was THAT size lol. > > But anyway, I was starting to learn that you could run an Operating > System on your Computer that wasn't Windows. Remember I'm just starting > out at this point and knew nothing. > > Anyway, I asked some friends of mine online what they used, and a > friend of mine said he ran Linux. I knew nothing about Linux, so I > looked it up, and starting reading. > > That was when I first heard about Unix, and BSD, and so on. My at the > time best friend was better with Computers than I was at the time, and > he LOVED Unix. > > Between my buddy saying he ran Linux and my friend saying that Unix was > a good OS for Hacking (He said it didn't get in the way, and that for > Programming, there was nothing better) so I took those as fairly strong > recommendations. > > So anyway, my friend would come over, and we would discuss Computer > stuff all day and all night long, and one day, I saw a book at the book > store I went to sometimes, called "Teach yourself Linux in 24 Hours". > > It came with a CD-ROM as well, and it had Caldera Open Linux 2.2 on it. > I bought the book, and started reading. > > Not too long after that, I still hadn't actually installed Linux on > anything yet, and my friend wanted to point out to me that Linux was > good, but it wasn't actually Unix. He made sure I knew the difference > between "Unix Like" and "Unix". Lol. > > Anyway, I was at Best Buy with my Mom, and as we're walking through the > store, I see the Computer Section coming up where the Software was. As > we're walking up, I see this thing called the "BSD Powerpak" and I'd > never seen it before. > > I had heard of FreeBSD before from my online reading, and I knew a > little about it, and I'd just never seen it before in a store.
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 07:22:18 + Andrew Perrywrote: > funny, I actually unsubscribed from chat (and others) because I was > getting too much traffic. At the time I couldn't deal with it (long > story, divorce and messy real life stuff). I was surprised when I > recently resubscribed and didn't get any messages. I thought I'd > stuffed up. Personally I prefer the FreeBSD-Chat Mailing List over IRC, but that's just simply my own personal preference. I'v been using this list on and off for a very long time, but eventually my situation would after a while change to where I had no time for Mailing Lists, but I'm glad I'm back on here. It does help that I'm finally using FreeBSD as my main Desktop now though. ;) I've been using FreeBSD on and off since 4.0-RELEASE. I actually still remember way back then; I had only owned a Computer for like a year or so at the time, and I was lucky enough to have some friends that were Hackers. I thought that was amazing and I liked the idea that I could do things with a Computer that could eventually lead to a career, and the fact that I enjoyed doing it helped a lot too lol. I was talking with my at the time best friend, and he had been using Computers for years, and I was just starting out, and didn't know much of anything. I had a crappy PC with Windows 95 on it, and one night, I was kinda drunk, and I accidentally destroyed it lol. I was working at the time, so I did have a pay check coming in even though I still lived with my Mom, and my main outgoing expense at that time, was my Horror Movie Collection, and my CD Collection lol. So I went the very next day to Best Buy, and picked out a new Computer. It was early 2,000 and it was the first time I had ever purchased a Computer for myself, and I ended up buying an HP Pavilion Computer, and it came with Windows 98 SE, 128 MBs of RAM, and a very odd 42.9 GB HD. It was only 42.9 GBs on Windows though; On Linux it was 43 GBs. I still don't think I've ever seen another HD that was THAT size lol. But anyway, I was starting to learn that you could run an Operating System on your Computer that wasn't Windows. Remember I'm just starting out at this point and knew nothing. Anyway, I asked some friends of mine online what they used, and a friend of mine said he ran Linux. I knew nothing about Linux, so I looked it up, and starting reading. That was when I first heard about Unix, and BSD, and so on. My at the time best friend was better with Computers than I was at the time, and he LOVED Unix. Between my buddy saying he ran Linux and my friend saying that Unix was a good OS for Hacking (He said it didn't get in the way, and that for Programming, there was nothing better) so I took those as fairly strong recommendations. So anyway, my friend would come over, and we would discuss Computer stuff all day and all night long, and one day, I saw a book at the book store I went to sometimes, called "Teach yourself Linux in 24 Hours". It came with a CD-ROM as well, and it had Caldera Open Linux 2.2 on it. I bought the book, and started reading. Not too long after that, I still hadn't actually installed Linux on anything yet, and my friend wanted to point out to me that Linux was good, but it wasn't actually Unix. He made sure I knew the difference between "Unix Like" and "Unix". Lol. Anyway, I was at Best Buy with my Mom, and as we're walking through the store, I see the Computer Section coming up where the Software was. As we're walking up, I see this thing called the "BSD Powerpak" and I'd never seen it before. I had heard of FreeBSD before from my online reading, and I knew a little about it, and I'd just never seen it before in a store. I was actually kind of surprised. I grabbed it off the shelf and took a look at the box, and I ended up buying it. It came with the book "The Complete FreeBSD, 3rd Edition" and it came with 10 CD-ROMs; 4 FreeBSD Installation CDs, and 6 FreeBSD Tool Kit CD-ROMs. When I got home, I opened it up and started reading about FreeBSD. As I said before, I did know what FreeBSD, sort of, and I had heard of it from reading online about Linux and Unix, and I was just really Happy that I could find this boxed set I'd found. Of course, none of that could prepare me for what I was going to experience either lol. Can you guys imagine? Someone who'd owned a Computer for less than one year, knows almost nothing about Computers let alone Unix, and has yet to actually install Linux, or any other OS for that matter, and now trying to get FreeBSD up and running? My friend that came over all the time and talked Computers with me, started checking out the box it came in, and he seemed pretty impressed with it too. It took me a while before I managed to get FreeBSD installed; Not because the installer was particularly hard to use or anything, I just simply didn't have the skills. I'd never even installed Windows or DOS before. So I knew literally nothing. After a
RE: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
funny, I actually unsubscribed from chat (and others) because I was getting too much traffic. At the time I couldn't deal with it (long story, divorce and messy real life stuff). I was surprised when I recently resubscribed and didn't get any messages. I thought I'd stuffed up. the freebsd irc channel on freenode gets a little action, but it's not the same. too many people expect an instant response on irc, but it can be just as laggy as email I wonder if there's somewhere else people are hanging out and chatting :-) From: owner-freebsd-c...@freebsd.org [owner-freebsd-c...@freebsd.org] on behalf of twilight [pipfsta...@openmailbox.org] Sent: Sunday, 24 July 2016 4:55 PM To: Jason C. Wells; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong To IRC, maybe? Chatting over e-mail is, kinda, funny. Lags are too big. On 24.07.2016 00:48, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I'm just excited to see a little traffic on -chat. Where'd everybody go? > > Regards, > Jason C. Wells > > ___ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" -- Cheers~ PGP key fingerprint: 07B3 2177 3E27 BF41 DC65 CC95 BDA8 88F1 E9F9 CEEF You can retrieve my public key at pgp.mit.edu. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" This message may contain both confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee named above. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately then destroy the original message. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
To IRC, maybe? Chatting over e-mail is, kinda, funny. Lags are too big. On 24.07.2016 00:48, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I'm just excited to see a little traffic on -chat. Where'd everybody go? > > Regards, > Jason C. Wells > > ___ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" -- Cheers~ PGP key fingerprint: 07B3 2177 3E27 BF41 DC65 CC95 BDA8 88F1 E9F9 CEEF You can retrieve my public key at pgp.mit.edu. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
I'm just excited to see a little traffic on -chat. Where'd everybody go? Regards, Jason C. Wells ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
On Saturday, 23 July 2016 at 19:31:13 +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Pedro Giffuniwrites: >> I was in the process of preparing a port of bitkeeper and I found this: >> >> https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper >> >> "The BitKeeper history needs to be written up but the short version is >> that it happened because Larry wanted to help Linux not turn into a >> bunch of splintered factions like 386BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, >> DragonFlyBSD, etc. He saw that the problem was one of tooling. ..." > > This may be poorly written, but what they're trying to say is that there > was a serious risk of someone forking Linux solely because they were > tired of the Linus bottleneck, and a DVCS would help avoid that. That's > not particularly shocking. I'm left wondering about the accuracy of the statement, though. I didn't think that this was the reason lm wrote Bitkeeper. I contacted him, but he wasn't much help. > Here's a real gem, though: "They stayed in it for three more years > before moving to Git because BitKeeper wasn't open source." Because > clearly, McVoy throwing a hissy fit and revoking their license had > nothing to do with it. I think this is a nice way of glossing over the ugly facts. I don't see that it's wrong. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger g...@freebsd.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong ....
Pedro Giffuniwrites: > I was in the process of preparing a port of bitkeeper and I found this: > > https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper > > "The BitKeeper history needs to be written up but the short version is > that it happened because Larry wanted to help Linux not turn into a > bunch of splintered factions like 386BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, > DragonFlyBSD, etc. He saw that the problem was one of tooling. ..." This may be poorly written, but what they're trying to say is that there was a serious risk of someone forking Linux solely because they were tired of the Linus bottleneck, and a DVCS would help avoid that. That's not particularly shocking. BitKeeper was the first semi-free DVCS and possibly the second DVCS ever (the first being Sun TeamWare, also by Larry McVoy). Here's a real gem, though: "They stayed in it for three more years before moving to Git because BitKeeper wasn't open source." Because clearly, McVoy throwing a hissy fit and revoking their license had nothing to do with it. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"