Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 02:35:43AM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: [I said about ntpd usage of sched_* functions:] We should make them standard IMO. According to John Polstra: I agree. BTW, as the sched_* POSIX functions are now standard in GENERIC, I've decided along with the upgrade to ntpd 4.0.99b to re-enable them. Be aware that the sched_* functions are somewhat broken. Peter Dufault had some patches that fixed them. I also had a later version of them. When Julian inquired about committing my later version, Peter indicated he was re-working the patches and communicating with bde about them. This was about 1-2 months ago. -- Richard Seaman, Jr. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5182 N. Maple Lanephone: 262-367-5450 Chenequa WI 53058 fax: 262-367-5852 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
[I said about ntpd usage of sched_* functions:] We should make them standard IMO. According to John Polstra: I agree. BTW, as the sched_* POSIX functions are now standard in GENERIC, I've decided along with the upgrade to ntpd 4.0.99b to re-enable them. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
That sucks severely - NONE of the common units have the PPS output?! Barf. Oh well. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 05:42:24PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 04:55:44PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: BTW, speaking of which, does anyone know of a reasonably-cheap GPS receiver that (1) has an external-able antenna that will work with somewhere between 50 and 100 feet of lead, and (2) has the appropriate pps outputs and such so it can be used for this? I will (as always) recommend the Motorola Oncore UT+. If you buy it from syngergy-gps it comes mounted in their nice box and the cable has the PPS on DCD and is ready to plug into a serial port. I paid $605.73 for the one I'm delivering to the Danish Internet eXchange point, that included antenna and 15m of cable. That's EXPENSIVE. Common handheld GPS units with NEMA outputs on them are well under $200 these days! Common handheld GPS units are pointless as NTP refclocks because they lack (a decent) PPS output. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
RE: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
That sucks severely - NONE of the common units have the PPS output?! Barf. Oh well. Many of them do, but it's still not meant for precision timekeeping and the exact relationship between its PPS pulse edges and UTC's second boundaries may not be precisely specified. It's not a good idea to use a GPS unit not specifically made for timing as an NTP reference clock. Sorry to plug myself, but I offer a GPS timing unit that is made specifically for timing use. It's $375 (quantity one) and more info is available at http://www.gpsclock.com/ PPS output is specified as +/- 1 us of UTC second boundary. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Poul-Henning Kamp writes: : I will (as always) recommend the Motorola Oncore UT+. If you buy it We've also had excellent luck with the OEM version of the Oncore that we embed in our products. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 02:33:35PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : That's EXPENSIVE. Worth every penny. We've seen sub-micro second syncronization with our unit on good hardware, and 1-2us on the 486 based hardware. : Common handheld GPS units with NEMA outputs on them are well under $200 : these days! NEMA gives you only millisecond accuracy, if you are lucky. Warner Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? For the Motorola name? Sorry, the Batwing Menace to employee's rights was long ago placed on my "do not buy, do not recommend, actively boycott" list. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? For the Motorola name? Sorry, the Batwing Menace to employee's rights was long ago placed on my "do not buy, do not recommend, actively boycott" list. Well, suit your own political manifests as you will, but the Motorola unit is the best time receiver you can buy for humane amounts of money. You can see some of my measurements at http://phk.freebsd.dk -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? Because we need a PPS that is 10nS from the true start of second for our application? 1uS is really really bad for the timing geeks in the audience. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 03:32:00PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? Because we need a PPS that is 10nS from the true start of second for our application? 1uS is really really bad for the timing geeks in the audience. Warner And on what hardware do you think you can obtain 10ns resolution RELIABLY at the software level in the Unix environment and under FreeBSD? Answer: NONE! The actual usable resolution of a timing source is determined by the maximum slop in ANY part of the complete system. I challenge you to get actual REPEATABLE 10ns results while a multi-tasking anything is running on the recipient of that data. - -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 11:17:00PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? For the Motorola name? Sorry, the Batwing Menace to employee's rights was long ago placed on my "do not buy, do not recommend, actively boycott" list. Well, suit your own political manifests as you will, but the Motorola unit is the best time receiver you can buy for humane amounts of money. You can see some of my measurements at http://phk.freebsd.dk Yeah, so what? Your system can't resolve events to that degree of accuracy, so the ability of the receiver to deliver them is irrelavent. More geek nonsense - about what I expected. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 03:42:24PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : And on what hardware do you think you can obtain 10ns resolution RELIABLY : at the software level in the Unix environment and under FreeBSD? : : Answer: NONE! WRONG. : The actual usable resolution of a timing source is determined by the : maximum slop in ANY part of the complete system. : : I challenge you to get actual REPEATABLE 10ns results while a multi-tasking : anything is running on the recipient of that data. We have hardware timers that let us get into the pico second range on a regular basis. Warner Yes, you have HARDWARE timers that do that. So what? I'm talking about TIME SERVERS on UNIX machines. You know, ntpd and friends? Yes, that. Now explain to me how stability of your timing source ON THOSE MACHINES is MATERIALLY different to any process WHICH THAT DEVICE MAY INTERACT WITH between 10ns and 1us, AS SEEN FROM THE UNIX MACHINE. I'm simply not interested in NON-GERMANE devices to the discussion; we were talking about FreeBSD on REAL computers, not specialty hardware for process control or nuclear physics experiments. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 11:17:00PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: Why spend twice what Mr. Schwartz seems to want to charge? Well, suit your own political manifests as you will, but the Motorola unit is the best time receiver you can buy for humane amounts of money. You can see some of my measurements at http://phk.freebsd.dk Yeah, so what? Your system can't resolve events to that degree of accuracy, so the ability of the receiver to deliver them is irrelavent. Karl, In fact I *do* have a computer that can resolve events to +/- 10nsec (http://gps.freebsd.dk) so I need it. In fact that machine is probably one of the best NTP servers in the entire world right now. More geek nonsense - about what I expected. Call it "geek nonsense" if you want to. Warner is employed by the company that builds the stuff which figures out what time it is for NIST and although my professional affiliation isn't anywhere near that level, I can claim to be the first person to truly split the microsecond with a standard UNIX box. Listen, it is really too bad that you didn't get that pony for X-mas, and I can understand you why you are disappointed about it, but when do you plan to stop being grumpy about it ? :-) If you intend to keep up this "sour grapes" attitude, despite all the helpful answers you have gotten so far, you should consider stopping before you have worn out your welcome. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : Yes, you have HARDWARE timers that do that. : : So what? : : I'm talking about TIME SERVERS on UNIX machines. So am I. : You know, ntpd and friends? Yes, that. That's one of the things in our application. : Now explain to me how stability of your timing source ON THOSE MACHINES : is MATERIALLY different to any process WHICH THAT DEVICE MAY INTERACT WITH : between 10ns and 1us, AS SEEN FROM THE UNIX MACHINE. It is better because the variance in the measurements that we make is much smaller than 1uS would give. : I'm simply not interested in NON-GERMANE devices to the discussion; we were : talking about FreeBSD on REAL computers, not specialty hardware for process : control or nuclear physics experiments. Get a life Karl. I was telling you about my experiences and if you don't like it, take a chill pill or go play in traffic. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 03:50:35PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl Denninger writes: : Yes, you have HARDWARE timers that do that. : : So what? : : I'm talking about TIME SERVERS on UNIX machines. So am I. : You know, ntpd and friends? Yes, that. That's one of the things in our application. So what? : Now explain to me how stability of your timing source ON THOSE MACHINES : is MATERIALLY different to any process WHICH THAT DEVICE MAY INTERACT WITH : between 10ns and 1us, AS SEEN FROM THE UNIX MACHINE. It is better because the variance in the measurements that we make is much smaller than 1uS would give. Not possible without custom hardware. The inherent uncertainty in a PPS interface delivered through a parallel port in the interrupt context of a common grade-processor is greater than picosecond claims. Now the *integration* of many of these signals may not be, but the point still holds. That you FLUNKED your first science course where the uncertainty of measurements was discussed, and the boundaries on certainty were laid out, does not change those FACTS. You CANNOT declare a measurement (no matter what it is) to be more precise than the sum of ALL uncertainties in the measurement domain. This is a material FACT, and no amount of posturing changes it. PAYING for precision in a measurement source that is a few orders of magnitude beyond the response windows of what it is connected to is *STUPID*. This includes your claim of anything approaching 10ns resolution on consumer-grade computer hardware. : I'm simply not interested in NON-GERMANE devices to the discussion; we were : talking about FreeBSD on REAL computers, not specialty hardware for process : control or nuclear physics experiments. Get a life Karl. I was telling you about my experiences and if you don't like it, take a chill pill or go play in traffic. Warner Go stick your finger in a 220V socket, or sit on whatever Poul uses to do what I asked HIM to do just a few minutes ago. Perhaps that would reduce the population of this group by two people who don't deserve the term "scientist" applied to them. Scientists. BAH! You'd have to flunk first-semester physical science courses to not understand how the boundaries of uncertainty in measurements work, and why buying a reference source that is more precise than the LEAST PRECISE element in your entire measurement chain is almost always a COMPLETE waste of money. If you have two elements in a measurement chain, and one has 10ns repeatability and the other has 10us repeatability, the measurement you obtain is FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES equivalent to the 10us one. Even if the OTHER timebase is only accurate to 10us, the TOTAL inaccuracy is 20us MAXIMUM. What, Warner, is the INTERRUPT LATENCY (including processing time) specification on a Pentium? You know, the amount of time the chip requires to (1) recognize the INTERRUPT being dragged, (2) save the current context, (3) switch to the interrupt context, and (4) execute the FIRST instructions in that context. Now add to that the ACTUAL gate delays for ALL the gates between your piece of wire and the processor. Then tell me that this sums to ~10ns. You're smoking hard drugs - the processor cannot respond to the interrupt until (potentially) a multi-cycle instruction has been COMPLETED. Further, the act of responding itself requires several MORE cycles, as does the physical act (in the interrupt context) of reading the input latch. In fact, for an ISA parallel port, the speed involved in reading that latch is limited by ISA bus speed! Be careful with the pontification here Warner - some of us actually HAVE done hard real-time work and some of us also know a bit about how MPUs REALLY work in the REAL world. Posturing does NOT work with me on topics like this. You ain't getting no 10ns resolution off any production FreeBSD box without specialized timekeeping hardware that READS the pps output and has its OWN high-precision clock so it can tell the processor how many ticks elapsed from the time IT saw the PPS output until the processor got around to reading the latch. No way in hell. You want to claim otherwise? Fine - show me a gate analysis on the port you connect that clock to (from the wire to the processor's INTERRUPT pin), along with a gate propagation analysis on the processor and the execution path it must take, both worst and best case, from receipt of a signal on the interrupt pin until the FIRST instruction in the handler is executed. Have fun. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 04:53:55PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 11:49:08PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: ..snip.. If you intend to keep up this "sour grapes" attitude, despite all the helpful answers you have gotten so far, you should consider stopping before you have worn out your welcome. Go fuck yourself Poul. Yes, the "F-word". You have no ability to determine "my welcome". Karl you are one fscking asshole. As a member of this list, you *HAVE* worn out your welcome in my inbox. You asked Poul-Henning about *good* timekeeping HW. He told you. $600 isn't that much for computer server related hardware. Warner seconded the recommendation. You pay less, you don't get the best. Its up to you to weigh your needs vs. what you are willing to pay. And you want to bitch?? What is your fscking problem? -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Karl Denninger wrote: If you intend to keep up this "sour grapes" attitude, despite all the helpful answers you have gotten so far, you should consider stopping before you have worn out your welcome. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member profanity censored Yes, the "F-word". You have no ability to determine "my welcome". Karl, you've now managed to irritate a lot of folks. Jumping on Steve, who is normally a huge worker, and totally inoffensive, was really pushing things, but then jumping on Poul, who is somewhat easier to touch off, well, you have been just about advertising "I want a fight!", although no one's really given you much reason for it. Poul's response was right, you should come back in a few days, when you've had time to cool off. No one else really wants to keep the fight going. Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, New Year's Resolution: I | electronics, communications, and will not sphroxify gullible| signal processing. people into looking up | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and fictitious words in the| jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha)| dictionary.| To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 03:13:10PM -0800, David O'Brien wrote: On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 04:53:55PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 11:49:08PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: ..snip.. If you intend to keep up this "sour grapes" attitude, despite all the helpful answers you have gotten so far, you should consider stopping before you have worn out your welcome. Go fuck yourself Poul. Yes, the "F-word". You have no ability to determine "my welcome". Karl you are one fscking asshole. As a member of this list, you *HAVE* worn out your welcome in my inbox. So what? You asked Poul-Henning about *good* timekeeping HW. He told you. $600 isn't that much for computer server related hardware. Warner seconded the recommendation. So what? You pay less, you don't get the best. Its up to you to weigh your needs vs. what you are willing to pay. Shilling for a difference that is irrelavent is horseshit. It amounts to lying. Statistically these two time sources are almost EXACTLY equivalent. And you want to bitch?? What is your fscking problem? Its a bullshit argument David and is nothing other than BLATENT shilling for Motorola - at someone else's expense! Without a specialized board that counts these nanosecond ticks from the time it gets the PPS signal to the time the latch is read this kind of accuracy claim is worth exactly NOTHING. WITHOUT it, which is EXACTLY what REAL WORLD use of these devices is going to be running under, the impact is ZERO. Further, the ACTUAL impact in the real world of time stability to the dozen-nanosecond-range is ALSO zero, with the possible exception of physical control processes in the nuclear research field (such applications are NOT running on "standard" Unix machines!) Finally, in the world of sync'ing time between systems (say, in a multiple server cluster) that kind of precision is ALSO worth ZERO! NOBODY with off-the-shelf hardware can obtain repeatable 10ns results from a standard Unix machine. NOBODY. And THAT is a fact, easily determined through nothing more than Intel's databooks on their processors and the interrupt response time they exhibit. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 06:17:59PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Karl Denninger wrote: If you intend to keep up this "sour grapes" attitude, despite all the helpful answers you have gotten so far, you should consider stopping before you have worn out your welcome. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member profanity censored Yes, the "F-word". You have no ability to determine "my welcome". Karl, you've now managed to irritate a lot of folks. Jumping on Steve, who is normally a huge worker, and totally inoffensive, was really pushing things, but then jumping on Poul, who is somewhat easier to touch off, well, you have been just about advertising "I want a fight!", although no one's really given you much reason for it. Poul's response was right, you should come back in a few days, when you've had time to cool off. No one else really wants to keep the fight going. I don't give a shit what Poul wants - or what you want. Corporate shilling does NOT go past me without a response, and Paol is completely full of shit in the context (time servers used by HUMANS for ORDINARY uses) that we were discussing at the time. Sticking custom PCI boards into a PC that count nanosecond-level clock transitions before the processor can get around to reading the input latch (at a cost of several hundred dollars MORE as a one-off science project) *DOES NOT COUNT*. Since I see the FreeBSD "treehouse" mentality hasn't changed, I guess my ORIGINAL assessment was correct. Duplicity and bullshit still rule the roost, just as they did a couple of years ago. Why the hell Walnut Creek wastes their money on your type REMAINS beyond my comprehension. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Karl Denninger wrote: Why the hell Walnut Creek wastes their money on your type REMAINS beyond my comprehension. It really hasn't been a problem for anyone but you. It's more successful, then say, alternative top level domain projects that have gone nowhere. -- - bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 06:37:31PM -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Karl Denninger wrote: How many millions does Paol have to count in HIS bank as a result of this shilling and "advocacy"? SOME OF US have *REAL* successes to point to - not just bullshit pats on the back. Like eDNS, right? -- - bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - PS. Some of us aren't in it for the money. No, you're in it to pat yourself on the back and play "treehouse". sarcasm We can point to the Internet's evolution of these "treehouse" organizations and show off how PROUD we are of them and those who support them. Let's start a nice short list, shall we? Network Solutions. ARIN. FreeBSD-CORE. /sarcasm Shall I keep going? .At least the folks in it for the money are honest - you know exactly what their goals are. With the rest you have real trouble figuring out exactly what REALLY drives them. I prefer my cards face up, thank you very much. -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
Karl, I was my hands of this conversation. You aren't listening. We have custom hardware. We're a control and measurement system. The 10ns is needed for that control and measurement part. The sync we get of the system clock, like I said before, is on the order of a few hundred ns on pentium hardware and a few us on 486 hardware. That's why we spend more $$ on the hardware. If you don't like it, forget the chill pill and just play in traffic. I'm done with this conversation. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 06:08:31PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: As for whoever the person is who force-removed me from the list, trust me on this - I won't forget that act, and until you're identified and permanently removed from both the list and the entire project you'll have no contributions from me to your little treehouse project in any way, shape or form. Do you promise?? We'll really have *NO* contributions from you? Including contributing your emails to this list?? Pretty please!!! Oh please say this is true. -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 05:44:57PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: sarcasm We can point to the Internet's evolution of these "treehouse" organizations and show off how PROUD we are of them and those who support them. Let's start a nice short list, shall we? Network Solutions. ARIN. FreeBSD-CORE. /sarcasm Shall I keep going? Yes, all the way to switching everyone of your machines to RedHat Linux, or OpenBSD (since in the past you've claimed to be so security concerned); and then removing yourself from anything even remotely FreeBSD related. I'm sure the various Linux lists and development groups would greet you with open arms and would be so very glad to benefit from your "contributions". -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ollivier Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to John Polstra: Current versions of ntpd use these features if they're available. I The ntpd daemon in -CURRENT doesn't use these as we cannot be sure the user has enabled them. I don't understand why they're disabled in -current. Empirically, it appears that the standard ntpd (from the port) still works fine if the features aren't in the kernel. It emits a warning at start-up time, but then it runs fine after that. We should make them standard IMO. I agree. John -- John Polstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] John D. Polstra Co., Inc.Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Karl Denninger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What does (someone) need to do to get this changed out/updated? I can't
send it in as a port, since its part of the base package (setting
it up as a port would be pretty trivial from what I can see)
There already _is_ a port of it (net/ntp). And there are hooks in
/etc/rc.conf ("xntpd_program") to use the ports version instead of the
one in the base system.
John
--
John Polstra [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John D. Polstra Co., Inc.Seattle, Washington USA
"Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa
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Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like ntpd (the new one) works correctly; I grabbed the latest from the official site last night and by this morning the dispersion and offsets were stable. BTW, you might want to add these lines (from LINT) to your kernel config if you haven't already: # # POSIX P1003.1B # Real time extensions added int the 1993 Posix # P1003_1B: Infrastructure # _KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING: Build in _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING # _KPOSIX_VERSION: Version kernel is built for options "P1003_1B" options "_KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING" options "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" Current versions of ntpd use these features if they're available. I think "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" is the default, so that one probably isn't strictly necessary. Ntpd is the "official" code line now - the "x" line is considered deprecated by the official maintainers, so if you're going to support the ntpd line in the base system the other(s) should probably be removed entirely. I'm sure we'll get there eventually. Things move at a stately pace in -stable. :-) John -- John Polstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] John D. Polstra Co., Inc.Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 09:33:31AM -0800, John Polstra wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Karl Denninger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What does (someone) need to do to get this changed out/updated? I can't
send it in as a port, since its part of the base package (setting
it up as a port would be pretty trivial from what I can see)
There already _is_ a port of it (net/ntp). And there are hooks in
/etc/rc.conf ("xntpd_program") to use the ports version instead of the
one in the base system.
John
Thanks; I just updated /usr/src and saw the changes.
This has been broken for a *long* time - at least since the 4.0 branch
began. Its definitely a kernel interface problem with the older code;
while the adjtime call is being made its not happening and eventually
the code executes a "step" instead (which is a bad news; those should
basically never happen once xntpd settles down in a day or three after
a cold start)
It looks like ntpd (the new one) works correctly; I grabbed the latest
from the official site last night and by this morning the dispersion
and offsets were stable.
Ntpd is the "official" code line now - the "x" line is considered deprecated
by the official maintainers, so if you're going to support the ntpd line in
the base system the other(s) should probably be removed entirely.
--
--
Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org
Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for
a plan to do exactly that!
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Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 11:11:51AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE! Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock. Remember to get the kernel code involved. To do this: create a driftfile containing "0 1\n" start xntpd That will help. No it won't. I've been running xntpd for oh, four or five years now on various things. Yes, the drift file is there (and has been). Still got the step time messages. The new ntpd is in -CURRENT. Ok. I built it as a local binary and install THAT, and the problem disappeared, so I assume the old "included" one had some kind of problem. Oh, BTW, Mutt is Y2K complient. I get no "odd" time displays with messages I send myself :-) -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
According to Karl Denninger: This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE! Part of 3.4-R yes. I removed xntpd (3.4e) from current a month ago and put ntpd (4.0.98f, soon to be 4.1.0) in its place. What does (someone) need to do to get this changed out/updated? I can't send it in as a port, since its part of the base package (setting it up as a port would be pretty trivial from what I can see) As it is a feature change, it was decided not to put it into STABLE. ntpd will compile and run w/o any problem on STABLE though. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE! Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock. Remember to get the kernel code involved. To do this: create a driftfile containing "0 1\n" start xntpd That will help. The new ntpd is in -CURRENT. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 11:11:51AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE!
Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes
instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock.
Remember to get the kernel code involved. To do this:
create a driftfile containing "0 1\n"
start xntpd
That will help.
No it won't. I've been running xntpd for oh, four or five years now on
various things. Yes, the drift file is there (and has been). Still got the
step time messages.
Uhm, Karl, please try to calm down, OK ?
I didn't talk about having a driftfile, I talked about using the kernel
PLL: ("Remember to get the kernel code involved.")
With xntpd the kernel-pll is very optional, in fact only the source tells
you that the magic secret second field in your driftfile controls if
the kernel-PLL should be used or not.
Anyway, ntpd4 is in CURRENT...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!
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Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Polstra writes: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like ntpd (the new one) works correctly; I grabbed the latest from the official site last night and by this morning the dispersion and offsets were stable. BTW, you might want to add these lines (from LINT) to your kernel config if you haven't already: # # POSIX P1003.1B # Real time extensions added int the 1993 Posix # P1003_1B: Infrastructure # _KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING: Build in _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING # _KPOSIX_VERSION: Version kernel is built for options "P1003_1B" options "_KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING" options "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" Current versions of ntpd use these features if they're available. I think "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" is the default, so that one probably isn't strictly necessary. I seriously doubt using these will do anything for NTPDs performance. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 01:17:15AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Polstra writes: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like ntpd (the new one) works correctly; I grabbed the latest from the official site last night and by this morning the dispersion and offsets were stable. BTW, you might want to add these lines (from LINT) to your kernel config if you haven't already: # # POSIX P1003.1B # Real time extensions added int the 1993 Posix # P1003_1B: Infrastructure # _KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING: Build in _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING # _KPOSIX_VERSION: Version kernel is built for options "P1003_1B" options "_KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING" options "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" Current versions of ntpd use these features if they're available. I think "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" is the default, so that one probably isn't strictly necessary. I seriously doubt using these will do anything for NTPDs performance. It won't, but it will stop ntpd from bitching in the syslog about them being missing :-) - Karl To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 01:15:13AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 11:11:51AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE!
Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes
instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock.
Remember to get the kernel code involved. To do this:
create a driftfile containing "0 1\n"
start xntpd
That will help.
No it won't. I've been running xntpd for oh, four or five years now on
various things. Yes, the drift file is there (and has been). Still got the
step time messages.
Uhm, Karl, please try to calm down, OK ?
I didn't talk about having a driftfile, I talked about using the kernel
PLL: ("Remember to get the kernel code involved.")
With xntpd the kernel-pll is very optional, in fact only the source tells
you that the magic secret second field in your driftfile controls if
the kernel-PLL should be used or not.
Yes, and my driftfile had that parameter in there. Uhm, Poul, remember I've
been at this for just a LITTLE while. Xntpd is something I had deployed
back in my *Sun* days (back when FreeBSD was, well, non-existent)
Anyway, ntpd4 is in CURRENT...
Now it is.
And it works correctly too.
Thanks anyway, even with the attitude.
--
--
Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org
Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for
a plan to do exactly that!
To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: options "P1003_1B" options "_KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING" options "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" Current versions of ntpd use these features if they're available. I think "_KPOSIX_VERSION=199309L" is the default, so that one probably isn't strictly necessary. I seriously doubt using these will do anything for NTPDs performance. It won't, but it will stop ntpd from bitching in the syslog about them being missing :-) Hm, I actually thought I managed to get somebody to solve that somehow, maybe I didn't quite succeed :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
On Sat, Jan 01, 2000 at 11:11:51AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes:
This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE!
Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes
instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock.
Remember to get the kernel code involved. To do this:
create a driftfile containing "0 1\n"
start xntpd
That will help.
No it won't. I've been running xntpd for oh, four or five years now on
various things. Yes, the drift file is there (and has been). Still got the
step time messages.
Uhm, Karl, please try to calm down, OK ?
I didn't talk about having a driftfile, I talked about using the kernel
PLL: ("Remember to get the kernel code involved.")
With xntpd the kernel-pll is very optional, in fact only the source tells
you that the magic secret second field in your driftfile controls if
the kernel-PLL should be used or not.
Does it help in the 3.4-stable version to set the second value in ntpdrift
to 1?
And why has the manual page never been updated, it is clearly wrong
when it talks about the contents of driftfile! :-(
Anyway, ntpd4 is in CURRENT...
Well... that won't help the 20 or so boxes here doing this all the
time:
Jan 1 11:26:46 gndrsh xntpd[133]: time reset (step) -0.217546 s
Jan 1 11:32:06 gndrsh xntpd[133]: time reset (step) 0.207523 s
--
Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
On Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 01:31:25AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Karl Denninger writes: Yes, and my driftfile had that parameter in there. Uhm, Poul, remember I've been at this for just a LITTLE while. Xntpd is something I had deployed back in my *Sun* days (back when FreeBSD was, well, non-existent) Karl, remember who was there too ? :-) Anyway, ntpd4 is in CURRENT... Now it is. And it works correctly too. In general yes, but not if you use the hardpps() with a refclock, it works better after I fixed a couple of almost-mutually-canceling sign-bugs, but the parameters of the hardpps() PLL relative to the FLL are wrong. You're still a bunch of revs back - the current is either "h" or "i", and it has a bunch of fixes (including one here, I think) Thanks anyway, even with the attitude. Many happy returns :-) Thy be welcome. -- Karl To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
xntpd - VERY old folks, how about updating? :-)
This is not a port, its part of the RELEASE! Its several YEARS old, and doesn't work right - you get lots of STEP changes instead of what you SHOULD get, which is a slew on the system clock. The new code (which has a current release date of this month) DOES appear to work correctly (I'm still verifying it, but it's certainly better than what is in the tree right now!) What does (someone) need to do to get this changed out/updated? I can't send it in as a port, since its part of the base package (setting it up as a port would be pretty trivial from what I can see) -- -- Karl Denninger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Web: http://childrens-justice.org Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
