Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Doug Barton wrote: On 07/04/2012 15:01, Mike Meyer wrote: On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:19:38 -0700 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: On 07/04/2012 11:51, Jason Hellenthal wrote: What would be really nice here is a command wrapper hooked into the shell so that when you type a command and it does not exist it presents you with a question for suggestions to install somewhat like Fedora has done. I would also like to see this feature, which is pretty much universal in linux at this point. It's very handy. I, on the other hand, count it as one of the many features of Linux that make me use FreeBSD. First, I agree that being able to turn it off should be possible. But I can't help being curious ... why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? Because I find on Linux it often gets it wrong and winds up being useless noise. Mostly, though, it is because I mistype commands more than I type commands that should be there, but aren't. Warner ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thursday 05 July 2012 08:10:17 Warner Losh wrote: On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Doug Barton wrote: First, I agree that being able to turn it off should be possible. But I can't help being curious ... why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? Because I find on Linux it often gets it wrong and winds up being useless noise. Mostly, though, it is because I mistype commands more than I type commands that should be there, but aren't. Why on earth /would/ I want a command-line Clippy? (``I see you typed gerp. Would you like me to help you find a package with a gerp command?''). It was bloody irritating in Microsoft Office and it would be bloody irritating on the command line. Besides, as Warner points out, I'm many times more likely to get my fingers in a twist than randomly type in a command to see if it does anything. As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate, that's the sort of thinking that led to things like: alias dir=ls for MSDOS refugees. It might be a useful crutch for a while but eventually you need to learn the system you're using rather than try to make it more like the one you got rid of. Or perhaps I'm just a grumpy old man More seriously, maybe we should have something like http://bhami.com/rosetta.html in the Handbook. And before someone says patches welcome, I think it needs to be someone who knows Linux rather better than I do. Jonathan ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate, that's the
sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have
#define BEGIN {
#define END }
wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol and Pascal.
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
I appreciate the people who've spoken up as to why they wouldn't want
to use it, but I haven't seen anything yet that says having this
feature is a universally bad idea.
Doug
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Re: install-prompt for missing features (Was: Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thursday 05 Jul 2012 13:09:05 per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: ... something like this would be *really* valuable to ease the transition for people coming from a Linux background. I'm sure some folks here would count this as a reason *not* to provide it :- I think the idea is quite silly all in all - There are 23k Ports a lot of which will have executeables - so everytime I make a typo - a database with - say 30,000-40,000 elements and give me a list back of things I could install from say the russian ports - I don't speak russian. I suggest looking at extending locate(1) or apropos(1) instead. Installed as a default in the shell I would count as a major reason to abandon FreeBSD. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
2012/7/5 Mike Meyer m...@mired.org: My objection was not due to misunderstanding about auto-install. I find the feature annoying - spewing a bunch of crap at me because of a typo. It annoys me far more often than it actually helps me, because more often than not the missing command is a typo, *not* an attempt to run a command I don't have. I.e., if I type mmap instead of nmap, I get: mwm@IPGhosterCrawlerI:~$ mmap No command 'mmap' found, did you mean: Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-6-jdk' (main) Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-7-jdk' (universe) Command 'gmap' from package 'gmap' (multiverse) Command 'gmap' from package 'scotch' (universe) Command 'tmap' from package 'emboss' (universe) Command 'smap' from package 'slurm-llnl' (universe) Command 'pmap' from package 'procps' (main) Command 'moap' from package 'moap' (universe) Command 'umap' from package 'libunicode-map8-perl' (main) Command 'map' from package 'sgt-puzzles' (universe) Command 'amap' from package 'amap-align' (universe) mmap: command not found And it really annoys me too because usually, instead of an immediate command not found, you've got a reply seconds later if on a not so fast computer. When working on Ubuntu, after a typo or missing command I have the time to realize that something strange is happening, to read again what I typed and to hit ^C before any message is displayed. -- Olivier Smedts _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) e-mail: oliv...@gid0.org- against HTML email vCards X www: http://www.gid0.org- against proprietary attachments / \ Il y a seulement 10 sortes de gens dans le monde : ceux qui comprennent le binaire, et ceux qui ne le comprennent pas. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
2012/7/5 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org: On 07/04/2012 15:01, Mike Meyer wrote: On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:19:38 -0700 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: On 07/04/2012 11:51, Jason Hellenthal wrote: What would be really nice here is a command wrapper hooked into the shell so that when you type a command and it does not exist it presents you with a question for suggestions to install somewhat like Fedora has done. I would also like to see this feature, which is pretty much universal in linux at this point. It's very handy. I, on the other hand, count it as one of the many features of Linux that make me use FreeBSD. First, I agree that being able to turn it off should be possible. But I can't help being curious ... why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? You mean, this desktop dumb mode thing that makes my hard drive led crazy-blink and makes me hit (first) my desk and (then) ^C before anything is displayed ? my FreeBSD desktop : % time dsfsd dsfsd: Commande introuvable. 0.000u 0.002s 0:00.00 0.0% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w an Ubuntu server : # time fsqfqsdfs fsqfqsdfs: command not found real0m0.408s user0m0.120s sys 0m0.040s and that's a *fast* one ! -- Olivier Smedts _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) e-mail: oliv...@gid0.org- against HTML email vCards X www: http://www.gid0.org- against proprietary attachments / \ Il y a seulement 10 sortes de gens dans le monde : ceux qui comprennent le binaire, et ceux qui ne le comprennent pas. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original question:
why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to
install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system?
rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top
comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to use
a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional tools
to help them ``settle in'' (but see below).
You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people
migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the Handbook
so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to
the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa).
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is
created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I
didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in which I
switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything
switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I
know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments.
I haven't seen anything yet that says ``having this feature is a
universally bad idea.''
Several people have pointed out that for minor benefit, this will have the
disadvantage of kicking off a subprocess searching a potentially very large
database for every typo. I would call that a bad idea; certainly by
comparison with a handbook entry or manpage along the lines I suggested. (I'd
do it myself if I used Linux more than occasionally).
Jonathan
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Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Jul 5, 2012 11:16 AM, Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original
question:
why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to
install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system?
rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top
comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to
use
a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional
tools
to help them ``settle in'' (but see below).
You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people
migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the
Handbook
so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to
the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa).
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is
created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I
didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in
which I
switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything
switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I
know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments.
That's crazy- this is the logic that led to our sh having tab completion
and history disabled by default for years. How many people honestly knew
it was there? The people who would benefit from this feature are the ones
who wouldn't know it was there.
Chris
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 2012-07-05 12:03, Olivier Smedts wrote: ... You mean, this desktop dumb mode thing that makes my hard drive led crazy-blink and makes me hit (first) my desk and (then) ^C before anything is displayed ? The next step will be to start searching the internet in the background, while you incrementally type characters... (complete with insulting Did you mean 'foo'? type suggestions. ;) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to use a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional tools it is normal way of using any system. And actually possible with FreeBSD In 21 century knowing ANYTHING is elitist anyway ;) No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I Correct. No feature that do something over the curtain should be active by default. period. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
That's crazy- this is the logic that led to our sh having tab completion this feature does not do anything without you knowing. you ENABLE it by pressing tab ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On 07/05/2012 02:10 AM, Warner Losh wrote: On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Doug Barton wrote: On 07/04/2012 15:01, Mike Meyer wrote: On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:19:38 -0700 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: On 07/04/2012 11:51, Jason Hellenthal wrote: What would be really nice here is a command wrapper hooked into the shell so that when you type a command and it does not exist it presents you with a question for suggestions to install somewhat like Fedora has done. I would also like to see this feature, which is pretty much universal in linux at this point. It's very handy. I, on the other hand, count it as one of the many features of Linux that make me use FreeBSD. First, I agree that being able to turn it off should be possible. But I can't help being curious ... why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? Because I find on Linux it often gets it wrong and winds up being useless noise. Mostly, though, it is because I mistype commands more than I type commands that should be there, but aren't. It might be useful to adapt a concept from Gentoo's app-portage/pfl package. It has two components. The first is a cron job that runs weekly. It will report all files installed by portage and which packages own them to an online database. The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: adding new cipher support to kernel
On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 02:46:11PM -0400, Dylan Castine wrote: Hi, Hi. My name is Dylan, I want to add support for the AES-GCM cipher to the kernel. I am currently using strongswan for an IPsec build and need ESP to use the AES-GCM algorithm. Any info is appreciated, Riaan (CCed to this mail) already worked on a patch to provide software AES-GCM. Patch isn't actually in HEAD because I still could not find time to do a last stage review before commiting it. Feel both free to insult me from time to time unless patch has been commited :-) Riaan: do you have a newer version of your patchset, or can I use the latest you sent to me ? On userland side, I just don't know if *swan supports AES-GCM. Yvan. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
2012/7/5 Dimitry Andric d...@freebsd.org: On 2012-07-05 12:03, Olivier Smedts wrote: ... You mean, this desktop dumb mode thing that makes my hard drive led crazy-blink and makes me hit (first) my desk and (then) ^C before anything is displayed ? The next step will be to start searching the internet in the background, while you incrementally type characters... (complete with insulting Did you mean 'foo'? type suggestions. ;) But Google can afford crazy-blinking-led-hard-drives ;-) -- Olivier Smedts _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) e-mail: oliv...@gid0.org- against HTML email vCards X www: http://www.gid0.org- against proprietary attachments / \ Il y a seulement 10 sortes de gens dans le monde : ceux qui comprennent le binaire, et ceux qui ne le comprennent pas. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: adding new cipher support to kernel
Riaan: do you have a newer version of your patchset, or can I use the latest you sent to me ? Yvan: The last one I sent, I believe it was named aesgcm_cleaned.diff is the latest. If there is anything I can help with, just say. I know I am not Mr. Speedy, but I would like to help if I can :) Yvan Dylan: Strongswan does not support aes gcm for freebsd; it does not have the pfkey identifier in its kernel_pfkey plugin. All it needs is the identifier in its kernel_pfkey plugin. We have a simple strongswan patch for that. The identifier is defined in the freebsd aes gcm patches that Yvan is looking at. Riaan ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
But Google can afford crazy-blinking-led-hard-drives ;-) Google can not afford anything useless or overpriced, only actually cheap and working things. That's why google controls most of you, not the reverse ;) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
mwm@IPGhosterCrawlerI:~$ mmap No command 'mmap' found, did you mean: Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-6-jdk' (main) Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-7-jdk' (universe) Command 'gmap' from package 'gmap' (multiverse) Command 'gmap' from package 'scotch' (universe) Command 'tmap' from package 'emboss' (universe) Command 'smap' from package 'slurm-llnl' (universe) Command 'pmap' from package 'procps' (main) Command 'moap' from package 'moap' (universe) Command 'umap' from package 'libunicode-map8-perl' (main) Command 'map' from package 'sgt-puzzles' (universe) Command 'amap' from package 'amap-align' (universe) mmap: command not found are you serious that linux distros have such a think now? I didn't use linux for a long time and no plan to use it, but you are joking isn't it? ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On 05/07/2012, at 10:02 PM, Richard Yao wrote: The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. 0:55 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W bash /usr/local/bin/bash was installed by package bash-4.2.28 0:57 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W /usr/local/sbin/sendmail /usr/local/sbin/sendmail was installed by package postfix-2.9.3,1 ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Olivier Smedts oliv...@gid0.org wrote: 2012/7/5 Mike Meyer m...@mired.org: My objection was not due to misunderstanding about auto-install. I find the feature annoying - spewing a bunch of crap at me because of a typo. It annoys me far more often than it actually helps me, because more often than not the missing command is a typo, *not* an attempt to run a command I don't have. I.e., if I type mmap instead of nmap, I get: mwm@IPGhosterCrawlerI:~$ mmap No command 'mmap' found, did you mean: Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-6-jdk' (main) Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-7-jdk' (universe) Command 'gmap' from package 'gmap' (multiverse) Command 'gmap' from package 'scotch' (universe) Command 'tmap' from package 'emboss' (universe) Command 'smap' from package 'slurm-llnl' (universe) Command 'pmap' from package 'procps' (main) Command 'moap' from package 'moap' (universe) Command 'umap' from package 'libunicode-map8-perl' (main) Command 'map' from package 'sgt-puzzles' (universe) Command 'amap' from package 'amap-align' (universe) mmap: command not found And it really annoys me too because usually, instead of an immediate command not found, you've got a reply seconds later if on a not so fast computer. When working on Ubuntu, after a typo or missing command I have the time to realize that something strange is happening, to read again what I typed and to hit ^C before any message is displayed. Almost like you need a Better diagnostic message to note that a package database is being searched ;]... -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: mwm@IPGhosterCrawlerI:~$ mmap No command 'mmap' found, did you mean: Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-6-jdk' (main) Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-7-jdk' (universe) Command 'gmap' from package 'gmap' (multiverse) Command 'gmap' from package 'scotch' (universe) Command 'tmap' from package 'emboss' (universe) Command 'smap' from package 'slurm-llnl' (universe) Command 'pmap' from package 'procps' (main) Command 'moap' from package 'moap' (universe) Command 'umap' from package 'libunicode-map8-perl' (main) Command 'map' from package 'sgt-puzzles' (universe) Command 'amap' from package 'amap-align' (universe) mmap: command not found are you serious that linux distros have such a think now? I didn't use linux for a long time and no plan to use it, but you are joking isn't it? It's a Debian thing. It doesn't exist [out of the box] on Gentoo, Redhat, Suse, etc. -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On 05/07/2012 15:58, Sean wrote: On 05/07/2012, at 10:02 PM, Richard Yao wrote: The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. 0:55 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W bash /usr/local/bin/bash was installed by package bash-4.2.28 0:57 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W /usr/local/sbin/sendmail /usr/local/sbin/sendmail was installed by package postfix-2.9.3,1 Not the same thing. Richard's command doesn't need the packages to be installed first. It's answering what package should I install to get this program? rather than what package did this program come from? Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate JID: matt...@infracaninophile.co.uk Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On Jul 5, 2012 4:00 PM, Sean s...@gothic.net.au wrote: On 05/07/2012, at 10:02 PM, Richard Yao wrote: The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. 0:55 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W bash /usr/local/bin/bash was installed by package bash-4.2.28 0:57 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W /usr/local/sbin/sendmail /usr/local/sbin/sendmail was installed by package postfix-2.9.3,1 This isn't the same at all; it only reports for installed packages. Chris ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 5 Jul 2012, at 15:36, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
mwm@IPGhosterCrawlerI:~$ mmap
No command 'mmap' found, did you mean:
Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-6-jdk' (main)
Command 'jmap' from package 'openjdk-7-jdk' (universe)
Command 'gmap' from package 'gmap' (multiverse)
Command 'gmap' from package 'scotch' (universe)
Command 'tmap' from package 'emboss' (universe)
Command 'smap' from package 'slurm-llnl' (universe)
Command 'pmap' from package 'procps' (main)
Command 'moap' from package 'moap' (universe)
Command 'umap' from package 'libunicode-map8-perl' (main)
Command 'map' from package 'sgt-puzzles' (universe)
Command 'amap' from package 'amap-align' (universe)
mmap: command not found
are you serious that linux distros have such a think now?
I didn't use linux for a long time and no plan to use it, but you are joking
isn't it?
They do, and it's actually very useful in two cases:
1. new users — my friend told me to try out latex, but when I type 'latex'
nothing happens! oh wait, that's how I make it work
2. confusingly-named packages. on FreeBSD:
[nick ~]$ latex
zsh: command not found: latex
[nick ~]$ pkg search latex | awk '{print $1}'
latex-chapterfolder-2.0.20051124
latex-supertabular-1_3
ja-latex2html-2002.2.1j2.0_11
latex-beamer-3.07_4
latex-feynmf-1.08.19961202_7
pidgin-latex-1.0_5
latex-biblatex-0.9e
latex-pgf-2.10
latex-svninfo-0.7.4_3
latex-keystroke-1.0.20001109_5
latex-aastex-5.2_3
klatexformula-3.1.2_2
latex-nomencl-4.2.20050922
jlatexmath-0.9.7
latex-acm-1.1
latex-circ-1.0f_5
html2latex-0.9c
rtf2latex2e-1.0
latex-timing-1.0.19940515_6
latex-aa-6.1_3
latex-ucs-20041017_5
tomboy-plugin-latex-0.6
latex2e-2003.12_1
latex-etoolbox-2.0.a
db2latex-0.8p1_1
dblatex-0.3.2
latex2html-2008
latex2slides-1.0_5
platex-jsclasses-1.0.20110510
ja-platex-otf-1.2.4_6
ja-platex209-1.0_7
latex-mk-2.1_2
rtf2latex-1.5
latex-prettyref-3.0_4
latex-texpower-0.2_4
latex-arydshln-1.71.20040831_5
latex-logreq-1.0
cpp2latex-2.3
latex-biblist-1.4.19920113_5
platex-japanese-1.3_4
latex-caption-3.1.20100114_1
latex-auto-greek-1.0b_4
latexmk-431
latex-service-0.1_2
latex2rtf-2.0.0
latex-tipa-1.3_4
latex-mathabx-1.0.20050518_4
latex-logpap-0.6.20040201_5
htmltolatex-1_15
latex-bytefield-1.2.20050731_5
latex-resume-20010823_3
latexdiff-0.5_2
easylatex-0.080
csv2latex-0.18,1
latex-subfloat-2.14.20030821_5
latex-csquotes-5.0b
latex-ltablex-1.0_1
latex-cjk-4.8.2_5
Compare to bash on Ubuntu:
[jra40@kent ~]$ latex
The program 'latex' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
sudo apt-get install texlive-latex-base
This kind of thing makes the system *very* discoverable for non-experts (even
non-experts wrt a particular package). You don't need to check mailing lists or
freshports or whatnot, you can just try stuff out, and when it doesn't work,
the system sometimes helps you find the thing you're looking for. For some
people (like me), just try stuff out is an excellent way to start playing /
getting familiar with a new system; it makes it more likely that I will stick
with that system.
The command line shouldn't have to be a scary place for new users.
Jon
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 7/3/12 3:36 PM, Mark Felder wrote: On Tue, 03 Jul 2012 07:39:34 -0500, Dag-Erling Smørgrav d...@des.no wrote: I don't think there will be as much whinging as you expect. Times have changed. Agreed; if we need DNS in base (really, why?) Because when people install a server, they expect it to be able to resolve host names ? I fail to see how I'd be able to build BIND (or whatever other resolver) from the ports tree if my server wasn't able to download the sources in the first place. Using a third-party's name servers is not an option ;) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On 06/07/2012, at 1:21 AM, Richard Yao wrote: On 07/05/2012 10:58 AM, Sean wrote: On 05/07/2012, at 10:02 PM, Richard Yao wrote: The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. 0:55 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W bash /usr/local/bin/bash was installed by package bash-4.2.28 0:57 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W /usr/local/sbin/sendmail /usr/local/sbin/sendmail was installed by package postfix-2.9.3,1 Does that tell you about packages that are not installed? No, but that wasn't part of your description. Or if it was, I missed it and go me for publicly putting my foot in my mouth :) And if it's going down the path of every package/port there's questions (at least to me...) - is it all possible ports/packages including options (and that's a big 'how?'), or just the defaults? Considering how dynamic ports are with options rather than being broken up into pieces, it gets ugly fast - which port has /usr/local/bin/ndb_config? ok, yes, mysql*-server, but only if WITH_NDB - it's not default. Maybe that should be a mysql*-server-ndb port, but it's not, and it's far from alone there ... PHP was at one time the poster child for compiling everything in via options rather than using modules and I'm very grateful for the maintainers for sorting out that mess as much as they have. But it's also another example of non-default options making notable changes; what if you're looking for the mod_php setup? Searching for mod_php won't work if you just use defaults; it's a non-default option for the php5* package. Same with php-fpm. It's an effective solution for the default packages and certainly works well on that basis, but the current ports aren't always amenable to peeling out the required information in a variety of cases. This is not to say it's a bad idea - it's not, by any means. Quite the reverse really. It's just the boundaries and limits really need to be clear or its diving down a rabbit hole... (shuffle/split the ports to make this easier? Does pkg-ng make it easier to find this sort of information? Punt on it and say caveat emptor?) Gentoo's ebuilds can be just as dynamic - how does Gentoo deal with it? ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 7/5/12 11:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
I appreciate the people who've spoken up as to why they wouldn't want
to use it, but I haven't seen anything yet that says having this
feature is a universally bad idea.
Doug
As long as it can be toggled off system-wide, persistently (sysctl?), I
can't see the harm in bringing that in.
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Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 7/5/12 12:15 PM, Jonathan McKeown wrote:
On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original question:
why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to
install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system?
rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top
comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to use
a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional tools
to help them ``settle in'' (but see below).
You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people
migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the Handbook
so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to
the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa).
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is
created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I
didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in which I
switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything
switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I
know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments.
I have to disagree here.
This feature is also intended to make things easier for new and/or
inexperienced users.
Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose.
I for one wouldn't mind it being enabled by default as long as I can
disable it via a sysctl or rc.conf variable.
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Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
are you serious that linux distros have such a think now? I didn't use linux for a long time and no plan to use it, but you are joking isn't it? They do, and it's actually very useful in two cases: no it isn't. unless it would be extra keypress for that. i don't want to be treated as a moron just as when i use google search with javascript active. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: install-prompt for missing features (Was: Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:32:16AM +0100, Thomas Sparrevohn wrote: On Thursday 05 Jul 2012 13:09:05 per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: ... something like this would be *really* valuable to ease the transition for people coming from a Linux background. I'm sure some folks here would count this as a reason *not* to provide it :- I think the idea is quite silly all in all - There are 23k Ports a lot of which will have executeables - so everytime I make a typo - a database with - say 30,000-40,000 elements and give me a list back of things I could install from say the russian ports - I don't speak russian. I suggest looking at extending locate(1) or apropos(1) instead. Installed as a default in the shell I would count as a major reason to abandon FreeBSD. I would consider abandoning a OS that you originally installed for its functionality pretty silly but hey ... its a free world. And so is diabling things or choosing a optin. -- - (2^(N-1)) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. The -p flag to netstat comes from linux and I would dearly like to see it on BSD, for example. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:05:42PM +0200, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/3/12 3:36 PM, Mark Felder wrote: On Tue, 03 Jul 2012 07:39:34 -0500, Dag-Erling Smørgrav d...@des.no wrote: I don't think there will be as much whinging as you expect. Times have changed. Agreed; if we need DNS in base (really, why?) Because when people install a server, they expect it to be able to resolve host names ? I fail to see how I'd be able to build BIND (or whatever other resolver) from the ports tree if my server wasn't able to download the sources in the first place. Using a third-party's name servers is not an option ;) And this is exactly why a base package collection of select few ports should be made and distributed in the root of a image. What I mean is a few elected common services that server environments use. BIND, unbound, openntpd, openospf, openbgpd, etc... fall into this category. Basicaly core networking utilities because server systems just are not the same without them. -- - (2^(N-1)) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot m...@my.gd wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. The -p flag to netstat comes from linux and I would dearly like to see it on BSD, for example. Well, technically FreeBSD's netstat already has -p (which can be used to get the same result as -t or -u on Linux). ;) And you can get the same info from sockstat -P tcp as Linux netstat -tp. But, yeah, netstat -antp is much easier to type than netstat -an -p tcp; sockstat -P tcp. :) -- Freddie Cash fjwc...@gmail.com ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:19:31PM +0200, Damien Fleuriot wrote:
On 7/5/12 11:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
I appreciate the people who've spoken up as to why they wouldn't want
to use it, but I haven't seen anything yet that says having this
feature is a universally bad idea.
Doug
As long as it can be toggled off system-wide, persistently (sysctl?), I
can't see the harm in bringing that in.
Haha sysctl... thats going quite a bit too far into the system for this.
--
- (2^(N-1))
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:09:44 -0400 Jason Hellenthal jhellent...@dataix.net wrote: On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:19:31PM +0200, Damien Fleuriot wrote: As long as it can be toggled off system-wide, persistently (sysctl?), I can't see the harm in bringing that in. Haha sysctl... thats going quite a bit too far into the system for this. Yup. A sysctl (or rc.conf variable) intended specifically to control the behavior of shells is an even worse idea than turning this nanny behavior on for everyone. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just not just because :) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. Warner ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Jul 5, 2012 5:37 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: are you serious that linux distros have such a think now? I didn't use linux for a long time and no plan to use it, but you are joking isn't it? They do, and it's actually very useful in two cases: no it isn't. unless it would be extra keypress for that. i don't want to be treated as a moron just as when i use google search with javascript active. You'd fall into the category of 'I would disable that feature' then. Since that is the case, you should stop commenting, now, and simply disable it if/when it comes out. Chris ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
can't see the harm in bringing that in. Haha sysctl... thats going quite a bit too far into the system for this. that's just a sign of complete lack of understanding IMHO. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
Haha sysctl... thats going quite a bit too far into the system for this. Yup. A sysctl (or rc.conf variable) intended specifically to control the behavior of shells is an even worse idea than turning this nanny behavior on for everyone. some people work hard to turn FreeBSD to mainstream (==useless) piece of software. Not first time, but no great success achieved for now. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:57:09 +0100
Jonathan Anderson jonathan.robert.ander...@gmail.com wrote:
They do, and it's actually very useful in two cases:
1. new users — my friend told me to try out latex, but when I type 'latex'
nothing happens! oh wait, that's how I make it work
2. confusingly-named packages. on FreeBSD:
[nick ~]$ latex
zsh: command not found: latex
[nick ~]$ pkg search latex | awk '{print $1}'
latex-chapterfolder-2.0.20051124
[long list elided]
Compare to bash on Ubuntu:
[jra40@kent ~]$ latex
The program 'latex' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
sudo apt-get install texlive-latex-base
Nobody has argued that making the ports collection easier to search
would be a bad idea. I get:
bhuda% portsearch -f 'bin/latex$'
Port: latex2e-2003.12_1
Info: TeX macro package
Path: /usr/ports/print/latex
Files: bin/latex
Port: teTeX-base-3.0_20
Info: Thomas Esser's distribution of TeX friends (binaries)
Path: /usr/ports/print/teTeX-base
Files: bin/latex
2 ports, 2 files
bhuda%
Hmm. Seems like we have two different versions of latex in the ports
- and probably packages - tree.
In fact, if you want this functionality in the base, providing the
search functionality as an external tool is a crucial step. I'd be
surprised if anybody object to that being added to base.
The command line shouldn't have to be a scary place for new users.
Nor should it be an annoying place for old users. New users are
important. But old users are the ones who make contributions.
mike
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Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:18:10 +0100 Chris Rees utis...@gmail.com wrote: You'd fall into the category of 'I would disable that feature' then. Since that is the case, you should stop commenting, now, and simply disable it if/when it comes out. The claim is that it needs to be on for new users if it's going to do any good. No problem. That is *not* the same thing as on by default. On by default implies that you're turning it on for everyone, which is going to surprise and annoy a lot of users. I'd say that would be a fail. You need a way to turn it on for new users *without* turning it on for everyone. Like, for instance, adding it to /usr/share/skel. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Warner Losh i...@bsdimp.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. Here's a *random* thought to consider. This seems like a feature that FreeNAS/PC-BSD/etc (Linux/Windows/other OS convert) type thing might want -- so maybe the feature should exist (but be off) in FreeBSD and exist (and be on) in custom FreeBSD distros where users aren't necessarily expected to know FreeBSD. -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
2012/7/5 Warner Losh i...@bsdimp.com: On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. Yes. And that's why I disagree for turning this kind of feature on by default. I feel when I'm under an Ubuntu (or other desktop-centric distro) shell because of the delay after trying to execute, for examble, a mis-typed command. Sometimes it takes so much time to respond that I think the command was good, and go drink a coffee. Only to find out that no, it was just bloatware running. FreeBSD is so responsive as it is. I posted time results in another thread, and an Ubuntu Server took half a second to respond command not found at the first try, and it was a multi-GHz multi-core class CPU with multi-GB of RAM and multi-hard drive on a RAID. A not so old laptop I have takes ages to lookup that database ! Wouldn't PC-BSD be a better place for that ? -- Olivier Smedts _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) e-mail: oliv...@gid0.org- against HTML email vCards X www: http://www.gid0.org- against proprietary attachments / \ Il y a seulement 10 sortes de gens dans le monde : ceux qui comprennent le binaire, et ceux qui ne le comprennent pas. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 7/5/12 7:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. Warner As a matter of fact, I for one dislike the idea of a feature that suggests packages to install. I hate it on linux, and I would hate it here as well. I would definitely be turning it off (or keeping it disabled, whichever), however I can see why some people would want such a feature and use it. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Warner Losh i...@bsdimp.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. Here's a *random* thought to consider. This seems like a feature that FreeNAS/PC-BSD/etc (Linux/Windows/other OS convert) type thing might want -- so maybe the feature should exist (but be off) in FreeBSD and exist (and be on) in custom FreeBSD distros where users aren't necessarily expected to know FreeBSD. And FWIW, this can exist as a *port* which is LD_PRELOADed (or use some other LD* hack) as an opt-in for a select set of shells. -Garrett PS I personally don't care about this feature on FreeBSD, but I understand how to use FreeBSD. I sometimes find it helpful on other OSes like Debian that I don't actively use all of the time. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:32 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav d...@des.no wrote: Robert Simmons rsimmo...@gmail.com writes: OpenSSH 6.0p1 No. It doesn't build cleanly on FreeBSD (I reported two issues during the pre-release cycle, one was fixed but the other was not), and even if it did, it's too big a change to push through on such short notice. Understood. What about IPFilter? ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Warner Losh i...@bsdimp.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: On 7/5/12 6:38 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: inexperienced users. Having to enable it manually defeats its very purpose. so is FreeBSD future direction to be moron-OS just like linux is now, or is that just another stupid idea on that forum that came and... will pass? Quite important. There are still people that want normal OS. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't make it stupid, and just because it comes from linux doesn't make it bad. Both true. However, if the database lookups took a long time, or had a high overhead to maintain, then it would be stupid to have on by default. One other thing: just because one can build ports on an ARM board or a Netbook, it probably isn't the best idea in the world to do (although I do it because I'm too lazy to setup a Tinderbox for all 5 of my FreeBSD hosts). Similarly, building a database of command to package mappings on an underspec'ed machine is probably not the wisest thing to do. Given that the data changes relatively infrequently, it seems like something that would be best generated along with packages. Or -- here's a novel thought! Figure out how Debian does it, steal the data produced with their packaging scheme, then remap the .debs to FreeBSD ports/packages! Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 5 Jul 2012, at 18:21, Mike Meyer wrote: The command line shouldn't have to be a scary place for new users. Nor should it be an annoying place for old users. New users are important. But old users are the ones who make contributions. No argument there. :) I do like the idea (Garrett's, maybe?) of providing such a tool, leaving it off by default, making it very easy to turn on (if you run this command, the shell will be friendlier to you) and letting the PC-BSD folks turn it on by default for their users. Jon -- Jonathan Anderson jonat...@freebsd.org http://freebsd.org/~jonathan/___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 07/05/2012 09:37, Wojciech Puchar wrote: no it isn't. unless it would be extra keypress for that. i don't want to be treated as a moron just as when i use google search with javascript active. I agree, this feature isn't useful on linux. In 100% of cases it got engaged for me it was a result of typo. It would be useful to have a command that finds the port name(s) by the command name when needed though. Today, for example, while searching for package that has a command 'svlc' I do 'cd /usr/ports make search key=svlc' and it finds nothing instead of finding multimedia/vlc. make search seems to search through package names, dependency names, but not command names for some reason. Maybe this would be the reasonable feature to implement first instead of changing the missing command handlers in shells. Yuri ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 5 July 2012 03:28, Chris Rees utis...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 5, 2012 11:16 AM, Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote:
On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown
j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote:
As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate,
that's the sort of thinking that led to things like:
alias dir=ls
Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN
{ #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol
and Pascal.
Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful.
It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original
question:
why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to
install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system?
rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top
comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to
use
a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional
tools
to help them ``settle in'' (but see below).
You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people
migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the
Handbook
so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to
the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa).
If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it
off. No problem.
No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is
created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I
didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in
which I
switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything
switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I
know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments.
That's crazy- this is the logic that led to our sh having tab completion
and history disabled by default for years. How many people honestly knew
it was there? The people who would benefit from this feature are the ones
who wouldn't know it was there.
The system should be optimized for new users by default. Whether this
means enabling or disabling a feature is feature-specific.
--
Eitan Adler
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:05:42 -0500, Damien Fleuriot m...@my.gd wrote: Using a third-party's name servers is not an option And how can you trust that your port 53 TCP/UDP traffic isn't being redirected and you're talking to the real root servers? I think you're being a bit too paranoid... ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:08:36 -0700 Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: The system should be optimized for new users by default. Whether this means enabling or disabling a feature is feature-specific. This is *not* what Unix has historically been. Historically, Unix has a history of being expert-friendly - because people are experts a lot longer than they are new users. If you want a Unix optimized to attract new users, there's Ubuntu. If you want a system built that way, there's Windows. The system should be optimized for experts. The environment that new users are placed in can be optimized for them. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
I am sorry everybody I simply don't get this conversation - Implement it as a port - add it to bash/zsh/tcsh as an option - feel free - But if objective is to make a vanilla FreeBSD easier to use - I can think of 10,000 things (give or take a couple of 1000's) that would be a more wothy target. But for everybody's sake don't pollute the base system - before we know it you would argue that X11/KDE4 should be part of base as well as they make it easier to use. Principle has alway been to try things like that out as ports first and when everybody loves it move it into base (given and take the mandatory wars over copyright types etc). ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 05/07/2012 19:09, Mark Felder wrote: On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:05:42 -0500, Damien Fleuriot m...@my.gd wrote: Using a third-party's name servers is not an option And how can you trust that your port 53 TCP/UDP traffic isn't being redirected and you're talking to the real root servers? I think you're being a bit too paranoid... DNSSEC. That's how. Well, it doesn't stop your traffic being redirected, but it does guarantee that the data you receive is authentic. The tricky bit is ensuring that your queries don't get redirected between the stub-resolver built into libc, and whatever trusted recursive resolver does the DNSSEC validation for you. AFAIK, no operating system has a stub resolver the capability to validate DNSSEC. But that would be a really excellent enhancement if it was feasible. Cheers, Matthew PS. Too paranoid? That's impossible. -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate JID: matt...@infracaninophile.co.uk Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On 05/07/2012 19:06, Yuri wrote: It would be useful to have a command that finds the port name(s) by the command name when needed though. Today, for example, while searching for package that has a command 'svlc' I do 'cd /usr/ports make search key=svlc' and it finds nothing instead of finding multimedia/vlc. make search seems to search through package names, dependency names, but not command names for some reason. make search uses the INDEX, and that doesn't contain any information about the files installed by ports. Building a file index might be possible, but it would be several times the size of the existing INDEX and take correspondingly longer to generate. Also, you'ld probably want it as a sqlite database or BDB file for performance, rather than plain text. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate JID: matt...@infracaninophile.co.uk Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Training wheels for commandline
As long as it can be toggled off system-wide, persistently (sysctl?), I can't see the harm in bringing that in. It violates the Unix Philosophy. Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new features. http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:51:25 -0500, Matthew Seaman m.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk wrote: AFAIK, no operating system has a stub resolver the capability to validate DNSSEC. Yeah, I was sort of hinting at that :-) ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On 5 Jul, Olivier Smedts wrote: an Ubuntu server : # time fsqfqsdfs fsqfqsdfs: command not found real0m0.408s user0m0.120s sys 0m0.040s and that's a *fast* one ! Lucky you! Fedora 16 on my fastest hardware ... # time fsqfqsdfs bash: fsqfqsdfs: command not found... real0m2.110s user0m0.018s sys 0m0.010s ... makes typos very annoying. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Gentoo Solution to Nanny Terminal Problem
On 07/05/2012 12:18 PM, Sean wrote: On 06/07/2012, at 1:21 AM, Richard Yao wrote: On 07/05/2012 10:58 AM, Sean wrote: On 05/07/2012, at 10:02 PM, Richard Yao wrote: The second is the e-file command, which will query that database for whatever follows it. For example, if I want to find out which package installs repoman, I can do `e-file repoman`. I can also do `e-file /usr/bin/repoman`. if FreeBSD had an equivalent to this command, this command, then I imagine that calls for Ubuntu/Fedora features should cease. Gentoo users seem to be happy with e-file. 0:55 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W bash /usr/local/bin/bash was installed by package bash-4.2.28 0:57 Fri 06-Jul sean@queen [~] pkg_info -W /usr/local/sbin/sendmail /usr/local/sbin/sendmail was installed by package postfix-2.9.3,1 Does that tell you about packages that are not installed? No, but that wasn't part of your description. Or if it was, I missed it and go me for publicly putting my foot in my mouth :) And if it's going down the path of every package/port there's questions (at least to me...) - is it all possible ports/packages including options (and that's a big 'how?'), or just the defaults? Considering how dynamic ports are with options rather than being broken up into pieces, it gets ugly fast - which port has /usr/local/bin/ndb_config? ok, yes, mysql*-server, but only if WITH_NDB - it's not default. Maybe that should be a mysql*-server-ndb port, but it's not, and it's far from alone there ... PHP was at one time the poster child for compiling everything in via options rather than using modules and I'm very grateful for the maintainers for sorting out that mess as much as they have. But it's also another example of non-default options making notable changes; what if you're looking for the mod_php setup? Searching for mod_php won't work if you just use defaults; it's a non-default option for the php5* package. Same with php-fpm. It's an effective solution for the default packages and certainly works well on that basis, but the current ports aren't always amenable to peeling out the required information in a variety of cases. This is not to say it's a bad idea - it's not, by any means. Quite the reverse really. It's just the boundaries and limits really need to be clear or its diving down a rabbit hole... (shuffle/split the ports to make this easier? Does pkg-ng make it easier to find this sort of information? Punt on it and say caveat emptor?) Gentoo's ebuilds can be just as dynamic - how does Gentoo deal with it? That information is recorded in /var/db/pkg. The cron job reads that on Gentoo. As for what it will find, it only will find things that has been installed on end user systems that are running the cron job. If an option or port is not used, then it will not find it. That has only happened to me once on Gentoo. Apparently, no one runing the cron job used mtree and the package had been broken for a while. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Interfacing devices with multiple parents within newbus
Hi folks,
The problem has been raised in the last BSDCan during a talk, but no
clear answer has been given. Some (pseudo-)devices might require
resources from multiple other (pseudo-)devices.
For example, a device is sitting on an SMBus, but need to access a
software controlled LED, sitting on a GPIO bus, itself sitting on an
LPC bus... Or a variant where everything is controlled on the same
chip, but different GPIO banks. For that specific example, all the
GPIO pin could be implement on the same GPIObus, however, gpiobus(4)
is limited to 32 pins and the chip provides 5 banks of 8 pins, ie. a
total of 40 pins[0]. In the same idea, a device sitting on GPIOs
controlled by two independant chips, say one being an ICH10R chipset
on a PCI device function, and the other being a
SuperIO on an LPC bus.
This situation make me really dubious that FreeBSD will be able to
support configuration such as:
esdhc@50004000 { /* ESDHC1 */
cd-gpios = gpio2 13 0; /* GPIO3_13 */
wp-gpios = gpio3 11 0; /* GPIO4_11 */
status = okay;
};
or:
ecspi@5001 { /* ECSPI1 */
fsl,spi-num-chipselects = 2;
cs-gpios = gpio1 30 0, /* GPIO2_30 */
gpio2 19 0; /* GPIO3_19 */
status = okay;
[...]
This example is taken from Linux' `arch/arm/boot/dts/imx53-smd.dts'.
Here, SDHC or SPI controller are using different GPIO devices. Note
that these GPIO pins does not seem to be multi-function pins as
another .dts defines ESDHC1 as:
esdhc@50004000 { /* ESDHC1 */
cd-gpios = gpio2 13 0; /* GPIO3_13 */
wp-gpios = gpio2 14 0; /* GPIO3_14 */
status = okay;
};
AFAIK, newbus is unable to model any of the above situation without
being bypassed one way or another.
any hints ?
Thanks,
- Arnaud
[0]: as a matter of comparison, old PXA27x have up to 121 GPIOs
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Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 12:03:21PM +0200, Olivier Smedts wrote: 2012/7/5 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org: On 07/04/2012 15:01, Mike Meyer wrote: On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:19:38 -0700 Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: On 07/04/2012 11:51, Jason Hellenthal wrote: What would be really nice here is a command wrapper hooked into the shell so that when you type a command and it does not exist it presents you with a question for suggestions to install somewhat like Fedora has done. I would also like to see this feature, which is pretty much universal in linux at this point. It's very handy. I, on the other hand, count it as one of the many features of Linux that make me use FreeBSD. First, I agree that being able to turn it off should be possible. But I can't help being curious ... why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? You mean, this desktop dumb mode thing that makes my hard drive led crazy-blink and makes me hit (first) my desk and (then) ^C before anything is displayed ? my FreeBSD desktop : % time dsfsd dsfsd: Commande introuvable. 0.000u 0.002s 0:00.00 0.0% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w an Ubuntu server : # time fsqfqsdfs fsqfqsdfs: command not found real0m0.408s user0m0.120s sys 0m0.040s and that's a *fast* one ! I'd like to point out that the idea is to give the user an easy way obtain package name for given potentialy missing program that is presented to him on error. It doesn't require spitting the list on every occasion and thus introducing overhead. One can just implement a standalone script that does package/port search and add a hook to the shell that prints the following: Command foo not found. Run pkg whatever foo to obtain list of ports/packages providing this program. No overhead, the message is not too long and can be disabled if someone finds it offensive. Does this sound reasonable? -- Mateusz Guzik mjguzik gmail.com ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Better error messages for command not found (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?)
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Mike Meyer m...@mired.org wrote: Actually, that's my biggest gripe about Linux systems. They set things in /etc/* shell profiles that *can't* be turned off in user rc files, because the ones in /etc run last. (And usually more than once. Idiots.) I haven't encountered that, at least on RedHat. I routinely override stuff in /etc/profile in my local .bash_profile. The bash manpage is pretty explicit that /etc/profile is read first. Are some distros doing something silly like sourcing /etc/profile in .bash_profile? -- David Brodbeck System Administrator, Linguistics University of Washington ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Interfacing devices with multiple parents within newbus
On Jul 5, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote:
Hi folks,
The problem has been raised in the last BSDCan during a talk, but no
clear answer has been given. Some (pseudo-)devices might require
resources from multiple other (pseudo-)devices.
For example, a device is sitting on an SMBus, but need to access a
software controlled LED, sitting on a GPIO bus, itself sitting on an
LPC bus... Or a variant where everything is controlled on the same
chip, but different GPIO banks. For that specific example, all the
GPIO pin could be implement on the same GPIObus, however, gpiobus(4)
is limited to 32 pins and the chip provides 5 banks of 8 pins, ie. a
total of 40 pins[0]. In the same idea, a device sitting on GPIOs
controlled by two independant chips, say one being an ICH10R chipset
on a PCI device function, and the other being a
SuperIO on an LPC bus.
This situation make me really dubious that FreeBSD will be able to
support configuration such as:
esdhc@50004000 { /* ESDHC1 */
cd-gpios = gpio2 13 0; /* GPIO3_13 */
wp-gpios = gpio3 11 0; /* GPIO4_11 */
status = okay;
};
or:
ecspi@5001 { /* ECSPI1 */
fsl,spi-num-chipselects = 2;
cs-gpios = gpio1 30 0, /* GPIO2_30 */
gpio2 19 0; /* GPIO3_19 */
status = okay;
[...]
This example is taken from Linux' `arch/arm/boot/dts/imx53-smd.dts'.
Here, SDHC or SPI controller are using different GPIO devices. Note
that these GPIO pins does not seem to be multi-function pins as
another .dts defines ESDHC1 as:
esdhc@50004000 { /* ESDHC1 */
cd-gpios = gpio2 13 0; /* GPIO3_13 */
wp-gpios = gpio2 14 0; /* GPIO3_14 */
status = okay;
};
AFAIK, newbus is unable to model any of the above situation without
being bypassed one way or another.
any hints ?
That's not correct. You don't need a parent-child relationship in newbus to
interact with another node in the tree. You can look up the other node by
name, and then call functions based on finding that other device.
Warner
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